:00:24. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:28.More migrants die on the treacherous crossing to Europe as France's
:00:29. > :00:32.prime minister frets immigration could destroy the European Union.
:00:33. > :00:35.Plus, Facebook's chief said her customers can help defeat
:00:36. > :00:38.Islamic State. Should we like her idea?
:00:39. > :00:46.My guests this week are, Abdel Bari Atwan, who is a writer
:00:47. > :00:50.Henry Chu who is an American journalist and
:00:51. > :00:57.We were told that treacherous winter seas would cut back those Syrians
:00:58. > :01:00.and others willing to risk their lives trying to cross
:01:01. > :01:04.from Turkey to Greece but it hasn't happened.
:01:05. > :01:06.Instead the people traffickers have cut prices.
:01:07. > :01:11.More migrants are dying and France's prime minister Manuel Valls
:01:12. > :01:13.says unchecked migration could destroy the European Union.
:01:14. > :01:29.It was pretty blunt statement. Yes, but that is what we need. Lucidity
:01:30. > :01:35.is a quality and the rare quality in politicians, especially in Prime
:01:36. > :01:40.Minister 's. The president of the European Council says we have two
:01:41. > :01:49.months to save Schengen. Why did he say that? If you look at the
:01:50. > :01:52.equipment, you can look at Germany, you can suspend Schengen. What
:01:53. > :02:00.happens is, it is fairly clear, either you default and Germany is
:02:01. > :02:06.the powerhouse of Europe, and if it doesn't play by the rules then it is
:02:07. > :02:09.the end. What you can do, article 26 is very clear. You've got to prove
:02:10. > :02:14.that one of the European member states, let's say Greece, cannot
:02:15. > :02:23.actually protect the external border of the union and then you can
:02:24. > :02:29.actually pull the suspension Schengen for two years. That would
:02:30. > :02:39.leave first time, that it leave the European Union time, to sort out the
:02:40. > :02:46.mess. As Manuel Valls said, this is akin to bacon tree solution. It is
:02:47. > :02:52.the beginning of the end. -- country by country solution. Putting up
:02:53. > :02:55.fences and walls and closing eastern borders, this is not of the European
:02:56. > :03:03.project is about. This will not be the end of Europe but a Europe, the
:03:04. > :03:11.founding fathers and mothers of the union. When I hear the words,
:03:12. > :03:19.temporarily suspension, I think temporarily is the European word for
:03:20. > :03:24.permanent. Quite possibly. Except that to go back to the broader point
:03:25. > :03:27.and the quotes from the French Prime Minister, in a way I think the
:03:28. > :03:32.opposite is the case. I framed this in the context of the referendum we
:03:33. > :03:38.are about to have in the UK and whether we stay in order. If you
:03:39. > :03:45.pose the question, would we have the European Union if you didn't already
:03:46. > :03:48.exist? With the implication that the doubters will pose that question, of
:03:49. > :03:56.course we wouldn't. But of course we would. Many of the problems can only
:03:57. > :04:01.be solved by coordinating on a European wide basis. Many of the
:04:02. > :04:07.problems we face, of which this one is a classic example. The fact we
:04:08. > :04:11.are failing totally to do so doesn't invalidate for one moment the idea
:04:12. > :04:16.that some kind of court the nation is required...
:04:17. > :04:28.Because Greece is our problem, Malta, Cicely.
:04:29. > :04:40.Completely. This tragic migrant story is our problem. Pulling out of
:04:41. > :04:45.this soul search is nonsensical. We need an organised institution to
:04:46. > :04:49.deal with it. It has failed totally. In other areas like crime and so on
:04:50. > :04:55.there is to some extent coordination. It is necessary. There
:04:56. > :05:01.are rules coordinating the single market. There needs to be an EU wide
:05:02. > :05:04.response to this. It is so obvious that is the answer and not an
:05:05. > :05:09.anarchy with the UK saying we won't take any, Germany saying we will
:05:10. > :05:14.taking loads. It is madness but we do have an institution capable of
:05:15. > :05:21.quarter knitting it and that is better than not having one at all.
:05:22. > :05:25.Of course, they should be in Europe wide solution and supposedly there
:05:26. > :05:29.was one in September when the EU nations decided they would share out
:05:30. > :05:33.and resettle some of the refugees and asylum seekers who have come.
:05:34. > :05:41.But that is a failure. When Andrew 60,000 out of the 1 million --
:05:42. > :05:49.160,000 out of 1 million that came. If that keeps on going there won't
:05:50. > :05:57.be a solution. There are continent wide solution is underway but they
:05:58. > :06:02.are not being implemented. It was always we have ten days to state the
:06:03. > :06:06.euro and if it fails, Europe fails. In this case at least with the euro
:06:07. > :06:13.graces needed to stop gap illusions as strong as the crisis. This they
:06:14. > :06:16.can't afford to do. This is a human wave that'll possibly overwhelm the
:06:17. > :06:22.continent. I'm surprised with this
:06:23. > :06:29.exaggeration. Two CDE you will collapse simply because of these
:06:30. > :06:36.foreign migration am I believe it is not right. The European Union is 500
:06:37. > :06:41.million citizens. How many migrants are coming now? It is only 1
:06:42. > :06:48.million. Do you think 1 million, and half of them will be deported. Do
:06:49. > :06:55.you think 300,000 will create destruction of the European Union?
:06:56. > :07:00.If that is the case... It is to union it is not European. It doesn't
:07:01. > :07:05.deserve it. My second point is, we're looking at the effect of the
:07:06. > :07:13.problem. We're not looking at real elements. It is Syria. The situation
:07:14. > :07:18.in Syria. Why is it happening? Five years now. No political solution or
:07:19. > :07:25.military solution. This is the problem. That is what the French
:07:26. > :07:32.Prime Minister said. The route and the causes in studio, we need to
:07:33. > :07:38.help Iraq, Turkey. But he got it wrong from the beginning. France got
:07:39. > :07:42.it wrong. Britain got it wrong. When they encourage the destruction of
:07:43. > :07:46.Syria, where they encouraged to militants to go to city and creating
:07:47. > :07:51.the problems. We never had a long-term vision at all. They
:07:52. > :07:56.pretend they know the Middle East, it is proved they know nothing of
:07:57. > :08:01.the Middle East. Suddenly, they wake up and there is the Islamic State.
:08:02. > :08:04.Suddenly, they wake up and they found those waves of immigrants
:08:05. > :08:11.coming to Europe. This is the problems stop where are the think
:08:12. > :08:18.tanks? Just in terms of the future of the European Union, there's this
:08:19. > :08:22.help David Cameron and his negotiations in the sense he can
:08:23. > :08:27.say, everybody is discontented here. The real problems we need to
:08:28. > :08:35.re-energise and rethink. The other way of looking at it is many British
:08:36. > :08:38.people will vote because of fear of immigration, in control immigration,
:08:39. > :08:48.we're not control of our borders. But it may be it more than economic
:08:49. > :08:55.leave. I completely agree with Steve on
:08:56. > :08:59.this. A lot of British people will think we need more coordination, not
:09:00. > :09:03.less. We don't want to be out of the union because the union is the only
:09:04. > :09:11.solution even though it is not providing it at the moment. It is
:09:12. > :09:20.strange to talk about Brexit when it is just a minor issue in the big
:09:21. > :09:24.scheme of things. We are going to have a summit about Brexit people
:09:25. > :09:30.say, we don't need a summit about Brexit, let's talk about it later.
:09:31. > :09:37.Most about a minor point. If Britain were outside the EU, do you think
:09:38. > :09:40.the French government would be, would have the same attitude towards
:09:41. > :09:47.migrants who end up in Calais? No. Britain would actually lose a
:09:48. > :09:55.loss because then Calais would become the problem, I think, of
:09:56. > :09:59.Britain. I'm not sure if that is people would look at this and say we
:10:00. > :10:05.need more Europe. Possibly, more coordination. Brits would look at
:10:06. > :10:09.this and say the European project has been a failure and let's go back
:10:10. > :10:12.to the first principles of being an economic union and a trading bloc
:10:13. > :10:17.and that is what we signed up for and that is all we want. You hit the
:10:18. > :10:22.danger in the UK in terms of this referendum. The arguments we are
:10:23. > :10:26.making, when we say more coordination, let's be honest we are
:10:27. > :10:29.saying individual country should give up more of their sovereignty in
:10:30. > :10:35.this issue. They shouldn't be allowed to decide, it needs to be
:10:36. > :10:39.coordinated on an EU wide basis. We can make that argument, it is a
:10:40. > :10:44.powerful argument. Try making that in a referendum. Give up your power
:10:45. > :10:49.to decide how many of these people we are willing to take. That is why
:10:50. > :10:53.this referendum is dangerous even though we are right to put the
:10:54. > :10:58.solution to this, it is to be caught donated. Let's look at the
:10:59. > :11:11.Springbok, Turkey for example. You mention smugglers. Turkey was paid
:11:12. > :11:39.$3 million to solve this problem. Turkey got a huge concession,
:11:40. > :11:42.says Isis can be diminished through Facebook,
:11:43. > :11:47.Or is she just part the digital delusion that tweets
:11:48. > :11:57.You have written quite a lot impact on anything much
:11:58. > :11:57.You have written quite a lot about the digital caliphate and how these
:11:58. > :12:08.organisations communicate. think she has got a point to?
:12:09. > :12:08.I think she does. Islamic State using Twitter, the Internet,
:12:09. > :12:16.Facebook said the maximum. managed to gain a lot of success.
:12:17. > :12:22.They can recruit people which is extremely important. They can
:12:23. > :12:29.promote their vicious ideology all over the world. I believe, some bin
:12:30. > :12:32.Ladin was unlucky because during his time he is an all man sitting in
:12:33. > :12:40.front of a camera giving a ceremony for about an hour on a half to be
:12:41. > :12:47.cut down to a few seconds by Al Jazeera or CNN. Suddenly, at a press
:12:48. > :12:54.of a button be reached all the corners of the world. It is free of
:12:55. > :12:57.charge. Now I believe, there is a huge campaign huge moves from the
:12:58. > :13:05.intelligence services in order to deprive them of this gift, this
:13:06. > :13:12.American gift. I noticed recently because I'm visiting this, their
:13:13. > :13:15.presence on social media is cut short. It isn't as it used to be.
:13:16. > :13:21.They used to have 100,000 tweets every day.
:13:22. > :13:27.She was suggesting that we like some of the Islamic State stuff and swamp
:13:28. > :13:33.them. There were 5 million tweets which said, bring back our goals,
:13:34. > :13:42.and it didn't have any good on Booker Haran. Isn't it just the way
:13:43. > :13:44.of these people who run these huge corporations of shoving the
:13:45. > :13:53.responsibility on other people. It is their responsibility, isn't it?
:13:54. > :13:59.Definitely. Facebook is a tool. But we have to look at other sites top
:14:00. > :14:04.for example, when you have somebody like Donald Trump, Sarah Pailin,
:14:05. > :14:09.when they are there dominating the scene and saying we have to ban
:14:10. > :14:12.Muslims from entering the United States is that this is the best
:14:13. > :14:18.recruiting tool for the Islamic State. We have to watch our media.
:14:19. > :14:23.We have to watch what we are saying, our ideology come our way of
:14:24. > :14:30.thinking. It has to be a collective move, it isn't just the Facebook or
:14:31. > :14:36.Twitter. We have to have a very wide range of tools in order to fight
:14:37. > :14:41.them. I think the idea of like bombing Islamic State isn't going to
:14:42. > :14:44.happen. That is ludicrous. There was this summit between silicon valley
:14:45. > :14:57.and the American government to joke about was could be done. Using both
:14:58. > :15:05.Western tools of the Internet, these are private companies. There should
:15:06. > :15:07.be bans of government limitations on different interference and speech
:15:08. > :15:12.but these are private companies which can take steps. It is helpful
:15:13. > :15:16.but is now a pilot between them and the government as to what can be
:15:17. > :15:20.done. Facebook has controls, for example, I'm trying to fly people
:15:21. > :15:25.who might be suicidal. They can exercise other kinds of algorithms
:15:26. > :15:32.to find Andrew Tye had propaganda things from Islamic State.
:15:33. > :15:47.There is something that but not enough? Censorship... BBC don't
:15:48. > :15:53.broadcast Isis Didio. -- videos. You have access to some of the top
:15:54. > :15:56.people in Isis, they have revealed to the degree they use social media.
:15:57. > :16:06.It is in some sort of primitive bunch of people. The response has to
:16:07. > :16:11.be sophisticated. Liking on Facebook is not going to be enough or
:16:12. > :16:19.sophisticated enough. More sophisticated than some of the
:16:20. > :16:27.Western authorities. The response has to be sophisticated. Including,
:16:28. > :16:32.frankly, I'd agree with you saying the government should make sure this
:16:33. > :16:41.happens. It is also about hiring talent. IS relies on the talents of
:16:42. > :16:44.IT talents of very young graduates from our best universities. That is
:16:45. > :16:50.exactly what silicon valley is about. It is counterattacking. It is
:16:51. > :16:59.counteracting not just recruiting but also radicalisation and speech.
:17:00. > :17:07.It is battle of talents on something that is extremely sophisticated. You
:17:08. > :17:14.are absolutely right. The head of IT Department on Isis, he was educated
:17:15. > :17:19.in the West, in the United States was that he got his degrees from
:17:20. > :17:25.acid she says. He was born in Paris. -- his degree from Massachusetts. He
:17:26. > :17:31.managed to recruit a lot of his friends, those young vigorous
:17:32. > :17:38.people, Muslim and non-Muslim, to work for his department. That is why
:17:39. > :17:41.they are highly advanced. They have very sophisticated, they can outfox
:17:42. > :17:49.a lot of intelligence services and Western governments because they are
:17:50. > :17:53.fighting by their own tools, brains and experience. That is why they are
:17:54. > :17:56.doing well according to their terms. The as Redding the propaganda full
:17:57. > :18:00.directors, writers and producers stop
:18:01. > :18:02.feel they have been overlooked at the Oscars.
:18:03. > :18:16.we have had this before. Women too. They have a point. I was looking at
:18:17. > :18:19.the archives 20 years ago and there was the same protest against the
:18:20. > :18:26.Oscars and the fact most of the nominees were white. There were
:18:27. > :18:30.protests outside some of the television studios broadcasting the
:18:31. > :18:34.Oscars. When you look at the Strait of acting nominees there is no way
:18:35. > :18:37.you concede that isn't a problem in terms of the diversity but we're
:18:38. > :18:46.back to something structural. You look at the Academy make-up itself a
:18:47. > :18:59.stop there was a study where the Academy itself is 94% white. It is
:19:00. > :19:04.70s sent percent male stop dead is going to be some changes where they
:19:05. > :19:12.will try to double the number of women, ethnic minorities. They are
:19:13. > :19:18.starting from a low bar. 7% of women directors in Hollywood. But is that
:19:19. > :19:25.a huge number. You have seen this from the inside because you work for
:19:26. > :19:28.the Cannes film Festival. How do you see this problem and how it affects
:19:29. > :19:34.those who take the decisions, who they get to vote on?
:19:35. > :19:40.I agree with what Henry just said. But from within the industry. You
:19:41. > :19:47.watch the films to pre-select them for the festival. As a viewer you
:19:48. > :19:53.don't care about the colour of the skin or the religion or even the
:19:54. > :19:58.gender. You are judging the work, you are judging performances. I'm
:19:59. > :20:02.more interested in the voice, in a new voice, an independent voice
:20:03. > :20:10.which is important in cinema. My duties to the work, it isn't too
:20:11. > :20:18.caught this idea. At the end of the day I wish my pre-selection and in
:20:19. > :20:24.the end the selection in Cannes deflected gender, parity. And also
:20:25. > :20:33.nationalities from all around the world. When people... I get a fellow
:20:34. > :20:42.journalists asking me every year, as a woman you should favour films by
:20:43. > :20:51.women. No, I favour what I consider are the best films. It is true that
:20:52. > :20:57.it is an important to point the finger but in the end we don't need
:20:58. > :21:05.quotas will stop nobody is advocating quotas. Some do. These
:21:06. > :21:10.awards should be given out on merit. It is easy to elect a black man
:21:11. > :21:15.president of the US than to have a black man head of the studio in
:21:16. > :21:18.Hollywood. You look at the movies that have been made but plenty of
:21:19. > :21:26.movies have not been made which would have had a more diverse story,
:21:27. > :21:44.women's story. It would make it more appealing. The independent
:21:45. > :21:55.production that ... If you look at a film like Creed, the director is
:21:56. > :22:05.white. The main actor is black. A white man was nominated for the
:22:06. > :22:16.award on the back of it. Once I was selected to be a judge for a
:22:17. > :22:20.television Academy, I was surprised. I was one of a few people out of 200
:22:21. > :22:26.who was non-white. This is the problem. We saw Charlotte Rampling
:22:27. > :22:36.saying that is racism against white people. There is no single person on
:22:37. > :22:39.the Academy board who is back. Cannes film Festival, we see Middle
:22:40. > :22:46.Eastern films can African films, Asian films, represented there.
:22:47. > :22:49.Actors, directors are presented. When it comes to the Oscars it is a
:22:50. > :22:57.different story. There is an admission that there is something
:22:58. > :23:02.wrong. They want to double that. Why now? Why didn't it take place along
:23:03. > :23:17.time ago? I toke to the director of Selma, and
:23:18. > :23:21.I asked how many African American women directors are there? He said,
:23:22. > :23:28.we can do lens, we can sit around one table. There is no black person
:23:29. > :23:39.burning the television studios in Hollywood. To be crudely tokenistic
:23:40. > :23:42.in this area would be absurd. My trendy friends don't look at a bunch
:23:43. > :23:48.of firms to go to and say we can't go to that, it isn't directed by a
:23:49. > :23:55.woman. It would be absurd now given the structure. We can't carve out
:23:56. > :24:01.ways of nominating people just on that basis. You have to sort out the
:24:02. > :24:06.structural problems. When you chose the best films you can't do it any
:24:07. > :24:09.other way. I don't know if they are the best films but you would have
:24:10. > :24:17.seen them. Some of them are pretty good. Do you
:24:18. > :24:23.take the point that we don't know Whitfield 's are not being made and
:24:24. > :24:33.we can't know that. Of course. In a few weeks' time I
:24:34. > :24:38.will see a lot of British films, and are very few by female directors.
:24:39. > :24:45.Perhaps they are not arrogant enough to think their film deserves to be
:24:46. > :24:53.selected. There is something cultural. Hollywood is important but
:24:54. > :24:59.it is only a tiny fraction of world cinema. I suspect Bollywood, there
:25:00. > :25:02.aren't many women Bollywood directors.
:25:03. > :25:04.That's it for Dateline London for this week.
:25:05. > :25:06.You can comment on the programme on Twitter and like us
:25:07. > :25:46.A fine day for most of the UK this Saturday. The weather much calmer
:25:47. > :25:51.than it is on the other side of the United States. The US being hit by a
:25:52. > :25:54.powerful snowstorm, picking up moisture from the Gulf of Mexico and