:00:22. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:27.In this week's programme: is it the end of compassion
:00:28. > :00:32.Plus, the continuing scandal of child abuse
:00:33. > :00:39.My guests today are: Jeffrey Kofman who is a north American journalist
:00:40. > :00:41.and broadcaster Nesrine Malik who is a Sudanese writer
:00:42. > :00:44.Maria Margaronis of The Nation, and Catherine Pepinster
:00:45. > :00:50.Far more migrants, some say 30 times more,
:00:51. > :00:53.have tried to enter Europe in the first two months of this year
:00:54. > :00:56.Greece, which has plenty of other problems, is under
:00:57. > :00:59.There have been disturbances in Greece and from Macedonia
:01:00. > :01:02.to Calais plus border tightening from the Balkans to Austria,
:01:03. > :01:07.And are we also witnessing the end of any idea of a Europe
:01:08. > :01:21.You would weep looking at the scenes at the Macedonian border. Kuwait and
:01:22. > :01:25.you do, but let's start with language. You say migrants, these
:01:26. > :01:31.people by any definition are refugees. Later percent of the
:01:32. > :01:36.people who have commented Greece this year are from Syria, Iraq and
:01:37. > :01:40.Afghanistan. More than 50% of those are women and children, they are not
:01:41. > :01:46.coming to Europe to quote, take our jobs. And he thinks that are on
:01:47. > :01:51.offer, the things being discussed by the EU are completely inadequate. We
:01:52. > :01:58.have had an offer of 66,000 pledged places for refugees and migrants,
:01:59. > :02:03.refugees from Greece and Italy, 660 have been placed so far. Greece has
:02:04. > :02:06.been building the so-called hotspot or reception centres but they are
:02:07. > :02:10.not going to be enough whatever happens because people will keep
:02:11. > :02:14.coming. Greece has responded I think remarkably well given what else is
:02:15. > :02:20.going on, able have been helping, have been bringing water, volunteers
:02:21. > :02:25.in particular, but that is not going to last indefinitely if so many
:02:26. > :02:32.thousands of people are trapped in the country. We were told that this
:02:33. > :02:37.would be the quiet period because it is winter and it was very dangerous.
:02:38. > :02:42.We were, so what will happen, May and June when more people are coming
:02:43. > :02:47.across? Why is it that the European Union has so significantly failed to
:02:48. > :02:54.show the quote solidarity "That is supposed to be at the heart and soul
:02:55. > :02:57.of it? Badly it is politics, people talk about saving Schengen, but we
:02:58. > :03:01.risk losing something more important, even values that the
:03:02. > :03:05.European Union was supposed to be built on in the first place. What we
:03:06. > :03:09.are seeing is if a country like Greece goes into debt, immediately
:03:10. > :03:14.the whips and handcuffs are put out and fierce measures are imposed but
:03:15. > :03:18.if a country like Hungary or Poland reeks of the EU was and build border
:03:19. > :03:25.fences and cut back on press freedom and so on, nothing happens. We have
:03:26. > :03:28.an overview of the rise of the right, in an effort to contain that
:03:29. > :03:33.rise, more mainstream politicians are taking more and more hard line
:03:34. > :03:40.on refugees, and it is catastrophic. Where do you see this going,
:03:41. > :03:44.Geoffrey? There is no to this. There are two currents in conflict, one is
:03:45. > :03:47.compassion and we all feel enormous compassion for the images but the
:03:48. > :03:52.other is you have this endless tide of refugees, there are 4 million
:03:53. > :03:57.Syrian refugees, mostly in Lebanon and Jordan, and now displaced home
:03:58. > :04:02.was looking for a life, not just a better life but a life. So the
:04:03. > :04:06.challenge now is there is a perception in Europe that come to
:04:07. > :04:09.Europe you will get a better life and you are starting to see other
:04:10. > :04:16.people from North Africa, Pakistan, coming aboard this circle, this
:04:17. > :04:19.tight, and so there is a perception here in Europe that if we continue
:04:20. > :04:23.to welcome that we will encourage more and that is where the conflict
:04:24. > :04:29.comes. On one hand, compassion, on the other hand, the whole world will
:04:30. > :04:32.come. How do you reconcile those two? Clearly what you don't want to
:04:33. > :04:36.do is leave those women and children on the borders of Macedonia,
:04:37. > :04:43.freezing in the cold in this time of year. The problem is now that Angela
:04:44. > :04:46.Merkel, who allowed 1 million refugees into Germany, her
:04:47. > :04:50.popularity has plummeted, the politicians see that at the say
:04:51. > :04:56.there is just block size to me being compassionate. We are playing a game
:04:57. > :05:00.of pass the refugee, almost. Absolutely and it is quite worrying
:05:01. > :05:03.to hear people say, there is a cool effect because this is bringing in
:05:04. > :05:08.migrants from Pakistan and areas of the world weather is a problem,
:05:09. > :05:12.there is to arguments that are now out there, that these refugees are
:05:13. > :05:16.middle-class and they have mobile phones and they are not in that much
:05:17. > :05:21.trouble. If you are risking your life to get to Europe from Syria or
:05:22. > :05:26.Iraq, this does not matter whether you have a mobile phone or not, you
:05:27. > :05:31.have a rough life in to get away. The second thing is that mixed in
:05:32. > :05:34.with these refugees are people from Afghanistan and Eritrea, they are
:05:35. > :05:39.not from Islamabad and the diplomatic waters of capital, they
:05:40. > :05:46.are from the water and ravaged areas. And so just because there is
:05:47. > :05:50.no live flash point war in these areas does not mean that these are
:05:51. > :05:55.not legitimate refugees suffering from their own little atomised
:05:56. > :06:01.conflict themselves. Norwalk which the West has invested interest in.
:06:02. > :06:06.Or that the media has paid any attention to. Where do you see this
:06:07. > :06:08.going? This plays into the EU referendum partly because of the
:06:09. > :06:13.migrant issue but also because we have heard French rumblings this
:06:14. > :06:18.week when the British Prime Minister was there, if you get out of the EU
:06:19. > :06:22.what will we do at Cali? We will just open the gates. I am not sure
:06:23. > :06:27.how that works when you have a 27 mile barrier of water. They give the
:06:28. > :06:32.impression that they will just two people onto the Eurostar and sent
:06:33. > :06:37.them off. What is happening as everyone is making use for the
:06:38. > :06:42.purposes of this crisis, I was very intrigued to see that even the Natal
:06:43. > :06:47.commander-in-chief has decided that this is something that is happening,
:06:48. > :06:52.when Putin is tied to bring up the EU by enabling Syria to have this
:06:53. > :07:00.crisis, this will make you and stable. I fear that by the Putin
:07:01. > :07:06.does not need to do that, it feels to me like the EU is picking up
:07:07. > :07:10.already, because as you have been saying, the values that underpin it,
:07:11. > :07:15.solidarity and brotherhood, are being cast aside often by
:07:16. > :07:18.politicians who often understandably have started to focus on their own
:07:19. > :07:27.domestic situations for them personally. I think we are very soon
:07:28. > :07:30.great to see a push to rewrite the 1951 refugee Convention, this
:07:31. > :07:35.discussion has been going on at least since 2003, when a player said
:07:36. > :07:38.it was no longer fit for purpose, and I think these are subtle changes
:07:39. > :07:44.of light which we are seeing are part of that. They are not refugees,
:07:45. > :07:47.the migrants. Greece is on the brink of a humanitarian catastrophe. What
:07:48. > :07:52.defines a Germanic telling catastrophe? When you have 10,000
:07:53. > :07:56.people camping in the mud is that not already a humanitarian
:07:57. > :08:01.catastrophe? Greece is pivotal year for very simple reasons of
:08:02. > :08:06.geography, but we have had with the economic crisis, we have had no
:08:07. > :08:11.lasting solution. The horrible metaphor of the cat being kicked
:08:12. > :08:16.down the road. This is another one being kicks down the road but by the
:08:17. > :08:20.people. This is not new for Greece, the rest of Europe has finally
:08:21. > :08:25.noticed but Greece has had a refugee crisis for at least ten years. We
:08:26. > :08:33.are all brilliant geniuses at analysing the problem... You like
:08:34. > :08:37.what to be do next? Exactly. There needs to be safe routes for people
:08:38. > :08:41.to come to Europe from war-torn areas. The so-called relocation
:08:42. > :08:46.scheme is to be made to work. There has to be some kind of stick applied
:08:47. > :08:51.as well as a carrot. You cannot have Hungary, which pledged to take 1200
:08:52. > :08:55.people, now saying they will have a referendum on whether Hungary should
:08:56. > :08:58.do that. If you're in the EU and you take your money there are also some
:08:59. > :09:05.obligations. Anyone have any better ideas? Mr Trump would build the
:09:06. > :09:12.wall. What needs to happen is we need to look for solutions where the
:09:13. > :09:15.problems are coming from and I think stabilising Libya is critical
:09:16. > :09:19.because Libya is also a transit point for so many refugees. And
:09:20. > :09:24.ultimately, that is the only long-term solution. May I add, there
:09:25. > :09:28.has been a disconnect between the political classes in everyday
:09:29. > :09:31.citizens, European citizens on how to approach the problem. There have
:09:32. > :09:35.been lots of volunteers, journalists, entertainers, there is
:09:36. > :09:42.a real chasm between the political message of what normal people would
:09:43. > :09:45.like to do. There are many people who demonstrate and like far right
:09:46. > :09:50.parties who want to do the opposite. If you can channel the willingness
:09:51. > :09:54.of normal people to volunteer and finance refugees, location and
:09:55. > :09:59.domestic facilitation, that is something that could be helpful.
:10:00. > :10:03.Anything else? We are talking about two different things, the short-term
:10:04. > :10:07.crisis of those people who are suffering in the camps but as you
:10:08. > :10:15.said, we also need political solutions to what is happening in
:10:16. > :10:21.these countries. But I fear that if you have to talk to people in
:10:22. > :10:24.compassionate terms then we are going to need another photo of a
:10:25. > :10:25.little boy on the beach to get through to people.
:10:26. > :10:27.Hillary Clinton now looks very likely to be the nominee
:10:28. > :10:29.of the Democratic party in November's presidential election.
:10:30. > :10:31.Donald Trump is way ahead for the Republicans,
:10:32. > :10:33.and the Stop Trump panic within the Republican leadership
:10:34. > :10:35.is looking for someone, anyone, to derail the Donald.
:10:36. > :10:48.What do we make of the choices of the American people?
:10:49. > :10:55.What we are seeing is a civil war in America, the Republican party is at
:10:56. > :10:59.war with itself, it is nothing less than that. This is a war of survival
:11:00. > :11:04.for the Republican party as we have known it at the establishment has
:11:05. > :11:07.known it. And the outcome, Donald Trump has managed to orchestrate the
:11:08. > :11:13.ultimate reality show, it is called the future, and this is really,
:11:14. > :11:20.really caring the party apart. Where it will go, Trump, right now, is
:11:21. > :11:24.destined to win, whether he can get enough votes to lead to Cleveland to
:11:25. > :11:29.get a majority is not clear but that is in July, still months away. There
:11:30. > :11:33.is a possibility presumably of a brokered convention, without going
:11:34. > :11:40.into the details, because it is I want dull,... Actually it is really
:11:41. > :11:45.interesting! Tell us what could happen. Traditionally in American
:11:46. > :11:48.politics there is a very complex series of primary is, it liked
:11:49. > :11:53.enough delegates so that somebody has 1237 votes for the Republican
:11:54. > :11:57.party and it is really a coronation, that is what these conventions have
:11:58. > :12:02.been since 1952, it wait for the party to come behind the candidate
:12:03. > :12:08.and vice president candidate and say, onto November and the election.
:12:09. > :12:11.In 1948 it was the Republicans, in 52 it was the Democrats, it was the
:12:12. > :12:17.last time we had brokered conventions which means that nobody
:12:18. > :12:20.had a majority, 50% plus one. You do not want that because it is
:12:21. > :12:24.disunity, it is great for the media but not good for the party, and
:12:25. > :12:29.since television arrived there has been a real push not to have these
:12:30. > :12:33.public displays, these four fights. That is what we might face. If
:12:34. > :12:39.Donald Trump does not have the 37 or something close to it, we will then
:12:40. > :12:44.see a vote in Cleveland in July and in the first round, if he does not
:12:45. > :12:48.win, then the delegates start to get released and then it is anybody's
:12:49. > :12:53.game and the problem is, if Trump loses that it is going to be seen
:12:54. > :12:58.that, if Ruby or cruise triumph, on the second or third ballot, it will
:12:59. > :13:04.be seen that one had the candidacy stolen from him and saw the division
:13:05. > :13:10.gets worse. It is worth pointing out that in 48 and 52 the brokered
:13:11. > :13:14.convention of Victor lost. Since Mitt Romney came out and denounced
:13:15. > :13:17.Trump yesterday, the AM radio stations have been buzzing with
:13:18. > :13:23.angry grassroots Republicans seeing how dare they tell me how to vote, I
:13:24. > :13:28.am for the Donald still the end. As a spectator, you are just back from
:13:29. > :13:32.New York, as a spectator it is extraordinary. Is but it is easy for
:13:33. > :13:35.us in Europe to look at those ludicrous Americans and laughed but
:13:36. > :13:39.if you look at what is going on around Europe, Donald Trump is not
:13:40. > :13:43.that isolated a phenomenon on. We have plenty of right-wing xenophobic
:13:44. > :13:48.populist demagogue leaders in Europe, too. Donald Trump I would
:13:49. > :13:53.suggest is going to shift, as candidates have in the past, when
:13:54. > :13:56.they think they will become the nominee, and will change his tune
:13:57. > :14:06.and he will do it with aplomb. I am not sure. I think that Trump's
:14:07. > :14:09.strength is in the fact that the is, bullets not only bounce off him but
:14:10. > :14:14.they make him stronger. His strength is the fact that he can see the
:14:15. > :14:19.unsayable and I think if he starts apologising and moderating that he
:14:20. > :14:23.will lose his superpower. I am not sure about apologising. If he begins
:14:24. > :14:30.to moderate and download his style, I think it might dent his
:14:31. > :14:35.credibility. It is one of the other. Donald Trump can only exist in one
:14:36. > :14:40.guise, and otherwise he does not exist, if you see what I need. Eagle
:14:41. > :14:48.B C Clinton. It is going to be mud wrestling. As strong as she is, she
:14:49. > :14:55.is going to face a very personal and vicious assault about her husband's
:14:56. > :14:57.sexual past, about her own uncertain details in certain things, the
:14:58. > :15:05.mysteries of her own past escapades, it is going to get so ugly. Going to
:15:06. > :15:09.get so ugly, with her, but it is surprising to see the world's most
:15:10. > :15:13.powerful democracy, one of the great parties in the world was powerful
:15:14. > :15:16.democracy, the party of Abraham Lincoln, reduced to grown men making
:15:17. > :15:21.jokes that frankly teenage boys don't really do any more. It is
:15:22. > :15:26.depressing and makes you wonder why it is they can produce candidates of
:15:27. > :15:32.greater calibre. What I am furious about is if Trump does not get the
:15:33. > :15:37.nomination, could he stand as an independent? He could. Plenty of
:15:38. > :15:42.money. Has the money. That would make the fight even more
:15:43. > :15:47.interesting. What's the Republican establishment fears is that Trump is
:15:48. > :15:50.so unelectable that the Nolan -- not only could lose the presidency but
:15:51. > :15:54.the Senate and potentially Congress and ultimately Hillary Clinton and
:15:55. > :16:00.her liberal agenda would be open, the Supreme Court vacancy left by
:16:01. > :16:04.the death of Scalia could be filled with even more liberal judge and
:16:05. > :16:08.they are doomed. They are reaping what they have soared, the Madrid
:16:09. > :16:14.this monster profited from the rise of the tea party. This is what they
:16:15. > :16:17.have made. The interesting thing about this particular election is it
:16:18. > :16:23.shows you an Hillary Clinton's side and Trump's site is the problem with
:16:24. > :16:29.American politics is the accrual of privilege that boys people approach
:16:30. > :16:32.rather than policies and ideologies. You have Hillary Clinton as the
:16:33. > :16:37.Democratic party apparatchik has the entire machine behind her, and
:16:38. > :16:42.Donald Trump is completely vacuous but has the heft of money and
:16:43. > :16:45.capital is behind him, that is the interesting thing. I think one of
:16:46. > :16:49.the reasons why I think you can change is made on things and nobody
:16:50. > :16:52.cares if he can see I have a businessman and I make business
:16:53. > :16:57.deals, if it is not working out to something else. Too many people that
:16:58. > :17:00.there is an attractive quality. Earlier had a point that is
:17:01. > :17:04.important to acknowledge, that as much as we might think Trump is the
:17:05. > :17:13.wrong man to lead the world's last-minute superpower, he does
:17:14. > :17:18.reflect as Maria said this notion that a large part of the economies
:17:19. > :17:22.of Europe and North America feel disenfranchised by the gains of the
:17:23. > :17:23.last 20 years and I think Jeremy Corbyn fit into that as much as
:17:24. > :17:28.Donald Trump. Let's move on. The Oscars were clear: this year's
:17:29. > :17:30.best picture is Spotlight, a forensic examination of not just
:17:31. > :17:33.sexual abuse within the Catholic church but also of high level
:17:34. > :17:36.attempts to cover it up. Now Cardinal Pell, Australia's most
:17:37. > :17:38.senior Catholic and the man trusted by the Pope to clean
:17:39. > :17:40.up Vatican finances, has become embroiled in questions
:17:41. > :17:43.about his handling of matters Has the Vatican, as a United Nations
:17:44. > :17:50.report alleged, been more interested in protecting priests
:17:51. > :17:59.than in protecting children? This does not go away and spotlight
:18:00. > :18:03.has made us think about it again. It does not go away, though there have
:18:04. > :18:07.been some attempts to do something about it, such as Paul Francis has
:18:08. > :18:12.set up a commission to look at the protection of minors, which leads in
:18:13. > :18:15.Rome regularly. There is a difference between what spotlight
:18:16. > :18:20.covered and what is happening with Cardinal Pell, because with
:18:21. > :18:26.spotlight, you have the revelations that were deeply unsavoury, about a
:18:27. > :18:33.Cardinal who was proven to have covered up what was going on in the
:18:34. > :18:37.Boston diocese. Cardinal Pell is now a Cardinal but he was not when what
:18:38. > :18:41.he is being questioned about happened. He was not in that
:18:42. > :18:48.position of authority so it is not spotlight writ large, but what it
:18:49. > :18:57.does remind people is that the Catholic Church has been too fond of
:18:58. > :19:00.trying to keep scandal hidden away. Unfortunately if you do that,
:19:01. > :19:05.scandal comes up to bite you later on. That is what has happened over
:19:06. > :19:10.and over again. For people not familiar with Cardinal Pell, he is
:19:11. > :19:16.the really important figure now. He is certainly very important, he was
:19:17. > :19:21.a very well-known man before Francis became Pope, because he is the kind
:19:22. > :19:28.of guy, he is a real bruiser. He was the Archbishop of Sydney. When Pope
:19:29. > :19:31.Francis wanted to reform the Vatican he brought various people in to help
:19:32. > :19:39.them, and the tools Cardinal Pell to come from Australia to Rome to sort
:19:40. > :19:42.out the Vatican's finances. That is not an easy thing to do, as anyone
:19:43. > :19:49.who has read the books of revelations will know. He has
:19:50. > :19:53.enemies in Rome over that. And now we have this embarrassing situation
:19:54. > :19:58.of him being questioned about what happened in Australia with abusive
:19:59. > :20:02.priests and whether he knew about them. Although he was not in a
:20:03. > :20:08.position of authority himself, he did advise the bishop at the time. I
:20:09. > :20:11.do not know what the rest of you think about spotlight itself, which
:20:12. > :20:15.is a great movie, but it is a kind of journalism which looks very
:20:16. > :20:19.old-fashioned in the modern world in a peculiar way because it is very
:20:20. > :20:24.expensive to do the kind of investigation that the Boston Globe
:20:25. > :20:28.did. Unfortunately, but we must strive distinction between the time
:20:29. > :20:32.with the Boston Globe investigation happened, when you have less free
:20:33. > :20:36.flow of information and you did not have the Internet that you did not
:20:37. > :20:41.have the ability to have a live transmission of the Cardinal's
:20:42. > :20:45.testimony, so I think even though we as journalists might look at this
:20:46. > :20:49.sentimentally and think, you know, this is unfortunate, we cannot have
:20:50. > :20:53.these kinds of investigations, we do have more resources that mean that
:20:54. > :20:58.when these kind of things do happen, they are not completely opaque until
:20:59. > :21:03.some 15 man team goes in and comes out with the information. That is
:21:04. > :21:06.what I think about the sort of slightly misty eyed view of
:21:07. > :21:12.spotlight. We are not in as bad shape as we think we are. The second
:21:13. > :21:14.thing is, it is so fascinated with the Catholic Church, how the power
:21:15. > :21:22.of the establishment completely always comes back and flattens
:21:23. > :21:24.everything else. It is the ultimate oligarchy, and over the years, so
:21:25. > :21:29.many allegations in the most heart-rending stories over
:21:30. > :21:32.generations, the average year, the average number of years that
:21:33. > :21:36.children were abused was three years, this happens all the time and
:21:37. > :21:41.even though people try and engage with it and they set up commissions
:21:42. > :21:46.etc, the establishment still comes together and makes sure that as the
:21:47. > :21:50.Cardinal himself said, we cared more about protecting the church that
:21:51. > :21:54.protecting the children. The last thing I would say is it is also
:21:55. > :21:58.interesting that as this Cardinal is going to start investigating and
:21:59. > :22:05.cleaning up the finances of the Vatican, suddenly the people that he
:22:06. > :22:10.is trying to sort out and resolve the financial situation of our very
:22:11. > :22:13.interested in how he covered up these things and very interested in
:22:14. > :22:17.how to investigate the child sex abuse allegations so they're all
:22:18. > :22:21.these machinations. He has only himself to blame, his comments this
:22:22. > :22:27.week are indefensible, that he was not much interested learning about
:22:28. > :22:31.this. But revealing. But the wilful indifference he displayed this week
:22:32. > :22:37.to the Israeli commission is absolutely appalling.
:22:38. > :22:39.But the Catholic Church is not the only place where there has been
:22:40. > :22:43.wilful indifference to child abuse by powerful men, obviously it is a
:22:44. > :22:51.huge institution with supposedly moral force and it is particularly
:22:52. > :22:58.important... The BBC have the problem as we well know. Spotlight
:22:59. > :23:05.is a wonderful hero journalist saving the world, which is all our
:23:06. > :23:11.fantasy, but what is behind this? Why did this happen? What is the
:23:12. > :23:14.culture of shame, of power, of suppressed sexuality, of all of
:23:15. > :23:18.those things that makes this possible? But as additional culture,
:23:19. > :23:23.and your point is a situation is very often exist supposedly publicly
:23:24. > :23:26.to do certain things but very often get defensive and actually exist in
:23:27. > :23:30.order to protect themselves. And that is almost eight hundred
:23:31. > :23:34.business school case study about human behaviour that needs to be
:23:35. > :23:38.done, about the way the establishment comes together, the
:23:39. > :23:43.way management... It is about how human beings manager suggestions to
:23:44. > :23:52.promote a certain message, whether it is media religion or sport, it is
:23:53. > :23:55.always about... The cover-up. We have the end there. The Pope has
:23:56. > :24:00.placed a lot of faith in him to clean up things, will he continue to
:24:01. > :24:06.support him? I think they might have a get out clause which is that
:24:07. > :24:09.Cardinal Pell is 75, he himself said he had ill health, that is why he
:24:10. > :24:14.did not go to Australia. I wonder if his time is limited now in what he's
:24:15. > :24:21.going to do for Pope Francis, but what I find interesting is that the
:24:22. > :24:24.said he could not go to Australia to participate in these hearings and we
:24:25. > :24:28.said we will come to you, but in doing that what the dead was the
:24:29. > :24:35.brought this crisis right into the heart of Rome. And they raise the
:24:36. > :24:38.victims... And the victims were crowd flooded to come and sit and
:24:39. > :24:43.listen to these hearings, so it is inescapable that they have got to
:24:44. > :24:47.deal with this. That is from us for this week, you can comment on the
:24:48. > :24:53.programme on Twitter. We're back next. Thank you. -- we are back next
:24:54. > :25:18.week. Thank you. Certainly with regards to the
:25:19. > :25:19.cabbages,