:00:23. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:27.The Brussels murders - the consequences for all
:00:28. > :00:35.And, as a DJ on a British radio station put it this week,
:00:36. > :00:37."chocolate - that's what Easter is all about."
:00:38. > :00:40.My guests this week are Catherine Pepinster
:00:41. > :00:45.of The Tablet, Agnes Poirier, UK editor of Marianne,
:00:46. > :00:47.Mina I'll Oraibi, who is an Iraqi journalist and political
:00:48. > :00:50.analyst, and Henry Chu, who is an American journalist.
:00:51. > :00:54.Within minutes - literally - of news of the Brussels atrocities,
:00:55. > :00:56.politicians and commentators were alive with blame.
:00:57. > :00:59.It was all the fault of western policy in the Middle East,
:01:00. > :01:02.of the Belgian authorities, the failing European Union,
:01:03. > :01:04.immigration and migrants who fail to integrate and so on.
:01:05. > :01:07.We will touch on some of these points in a moment,
:01:08. > :01:10.but can we begin by laying the blame where it belongs -
:01:11. > :01:13.with the band of losers who actually carried out the attacks?
:01:14. > :01:15.What lessons can we now learn from the bombings
:01:16. > :01:31.They were people on the fringes of society with very little stake in
:01:32. > :01:35.society which they hate. Where to start? Let's start with
:01:36. > :01:40.intelligence. We are discovering now from Friday, we know that it is the
:01:41. > :01:48.same cell that carried out the Paris and Brussels attack. We hope that
:01:49. > :01:52.Francois Hollande who said it is in the process of being wiped coat is
:01:53. > :01:58.partly true but it is extraordinary when you think about it. They were
:01:59. > :02:02.all based in Molenbeek, Brussels. They carried deadly attacks in Paris
:02:03. > :02:06.then Brussels. Brussels was supposed to take place at Easter weekend
:02:07. > :02:10.apparently and be like Paris so even worse in terms of casualties and
:02:11. > :02:17.shoot outs in the streets that didn't happen on Tuesday. The
:02:18. > :02:29.massive failures of intelligence, when you think about it. It is mind
:02:30. > :02:33.blowing. It is a political failure in Belgium. I remember well. There
:02:34. > :02:37.is no political Central power. You only have to work on the streets of
:02:38. > :02:46.Brussels to know that. It has been decades. The central power in
:02:47. > :02:51.Brussels, who runs Belgium? They have been without government for two
:02:52. > :02:53.years. When you think about intelligence, few think what we need
:02:54. > :03:01.is more cooperation, more intelligence gathering and sharing
:03:02. > :03:07.and it has. The head of Europe said it is happening. It is taking far
:03:08. > :03:17.too long. It is far too slow, but it is happening and when you're here,
:03:18. > :03:20.breaks -- Brexit is the cue for us to leave Europe because we will be
:03:21. > :03:28.safer somehow but we forget ten years ago the first home-grown
:03:29. > :03:32.jihadists were UK passport holders in London. At the time, I can't
:03:33. > :03:34.remember any politicians are commentators in Europe saying we
:03:35. > :03:46.should reject Britain goes we're going to be invaded by UK jihadists.
:03:47. > :03:51.All the French politicians are cocky about solidarity. You think there is
:03:52. > :03:59.resentment about Brussels? -- talking about solidarity. Belgium
:04:00. > :04:05.has failed to live up to the kind of responsibility but expect. Yes, but
:04:06. > :04:11.there is no state in Belgium so of course there is resentment and
:04:12. > :04:17.frustration. We love the Belgians but naivete can kill. When the
:04:18. > :04:20.French by Minister went to Brussels. It was fighting to stop being
:04:21. > :04:26.angelic and naive. I remember when Brussels was in lockdown after the
:04:27. > :04:30.Paris attack in November. They said, don't worry, they will give
:04:31. > :04:33.themselves up and I was looking at them thinking, you mean a white flag
:04:34. > :04:41.and they are going to leave their home like this? Surely you can't
:04:42. > :04:49.believe this. Someone recently said Judge is a failed state. It has the
:04:50. > :04:56.world record in not having government. In a place that we now
:04:57. > :04:59.realise that per capita it has more people who have gone to Syria and
:05:00. > :05:04.come back and forth than any other European country so unfortunately
:05:05. > :05:09.for those who were opting for Brexit, it is inescapable that when
:05:10. > :05:13.you have intelligence sharing, it's your only as strong as your weakest
:05:14. > :05:17.link and Belgium has a very weak link here. It is ideas that showed
:05:18. > :05:24.up these links, you don't detach yourself. It is perhaps a little too
:05:25. > :05:30.easy to entirely blame Belgium and I suppose I'm a bit sentimental about
:05:31. > :05:34.it given my father came from there, but we're supposed to have the EU
:05:35. > :05:37.counterterrorism organisation and that has failed, too. It is
:05:38. > :05:44.ineffective and surely has to be looked at. The former head of MI5
:05:45. > :05:46.gave a public lecture recently and he said countries which go on and on
:05:47. > :05:50.about intelligence sharing usually have little intelligence to share
:05:51. > :05:56.and he meant countries like Belgium frankly and not France and Britain
:05:57. > :06:01.and the United States. We are also part of another intelligence sharing
:06:02. > :06:07.group, which is America, us, Canada, New Zealand and I think Australia.
:06:08. > :06:11.That is reasonably effective but I suppose one of the problems with
:06:12. > :06:14.intelligence is that people who worked in intelligence are always
:06:15. > :06:21.suspicious of everybody else, even as theirs allies so that has got to
:06:22. > :06:25.be gotten over. I agree with Catherine, there is a lot being set
:06:26. > :06:28.to blame the Belgians but let's not forget, this can happen in different
:06:29. > :06:32.part of the world. There are failures and the need to be
:06:33. > :06:35.addressed. The problem is if you have people who have had their hands
:06:36. > :06:40.on explosives and guns and have been able to make a rank of actual
:06:41. > :06:43.criminals coming together and then want to carry out an attack, they
:06:44. > :06:47.are going to carry out that attack so it is about the intelligence and
:06:48. > :06:53.before they get to that step, but it almost feels inevitable that some
:06:54. > :06:57.ten attack will happen, how it is and how many people they can kill,
:06:58. > :07:03.those are the details change things. The issue with intelligence to make
:07:04. > :07:08.it actionable. You had taught saying they had given information from July
:07:09. > :07:12.about one of these chemicals and suicide bombers and no action was
:07:13. > :07:16.taken. They were on a watchlist. We have heard an American watchlist of
:07:17. > :07:21.two people. What does it mean when you're on the watch list? And many
:07:22. > :07:24.can you watch? Another thing internationally is there has been no
:07:25. > :07:27.real agreement about what you do about the people who go to Iraq,
:07:28. > :07:40.Syria, the beer, other places to fight and then come back. -- Libya.
:07:41. > :07:43.Some are not getting training. They are using arms and it would want to
:07:44. > :07:47.leave the country to go and fight. Then come back to these countries.
:07:48. > :07:58.What are they going to do with these skills? There is no real answer to
:07:59. > :08:04.that. Whatever criticism we make make of the Belgians, there have
:08:05. > :08:07.been terror attacks in Britain, America, Turkey. Even places but
:08:08. > :08:13.really strong functioning intelligence services can't watch
:08:14. > :08:16.everybody and all of their citizens. Margaret Thatcher said the only have
:08:17. > :08:20.to be lucky once, where she has to be lucky of the time. Society as to
:08:21. > :08:25.be lucky all the time in terms of making sure these plots don't happen
:08:26. > :08:29.but also just in terms of you are talking about here, how reaction, it
:08:30. > :08:34.was not so long ago, in living memory, that London and other parts
:08:35. > :08:37.of the UK were used to the threat of terrorism, it hung over this country
:08:38. > :08:42.from another source, from the IRA and people went about their daily
:08:43. > :08:45.lives. They didn't give in to it, whatever that should mean, and they
:08:46. > :08:50.did not react with the hysteria we are seeing happen in ways to Islamic
:08:51. > :08:53.terrorism. That didn't happen with the higher rate and so I think we
:08:54. > :09:00.also have to be careful about to which extremes we go in. The IRA,
:09:01. > :09:09.the purpose and history was very different from the caliphates. It
:09:10. > :09:20.was situated, located somewhere, not everywhere in the world. It was a
:09:21. > :09:25.different threat. But it was terror. You just come back from Iraq and we
:09:26. > :09:34.also know that the United States, the Pentagon, spoke of American
:09:35. > :09:39.success taking out Islamic State. Do you by the end of analysis which
:09:40. > :09:43.goes? They are being contained in Serbia therefore there will be more
:09:44. > :09:52.trouble elsewhere in places like Brussels -- Syria? First of all,
:09:53. > :09:59.Iraq, Syria, Turkey, different, Muslim and Middle eastern countries
:10:00. > :10:05.have to deal with this daily. We just had a suicide bombing in Iraq,
:10:06. > :10:10.45 people killed, and that is a continued threat. Also the problem
:10:11. > :10:13.with it is not so much about religion, it is people who are
:10:14. > :10:16.rightly tried to get political ends. They want to have their own
:10:17. > :10:21.territory which they have been able to carve out in Iraq. In June it
:10:22. > :10:27.will be two years since he took over the city. There will be training we
:10:28. > :10:34.can get money and start sending out people so the longer they hold
:10:35. > :10:39.territory, they are taking a foothold in Libya which is a direct
:10:40. > :10:42.threat to Europe. The longer they hold their territory, the stronger
:10:43. > :10:50.they will be. In terms of taking out numbers of Isis -- the number two of
:10:51. > :10:53.Isis, it doesn't really change the fact there are no strong sales and
:10:54. > :10:57.they have been able to function because they have territories so
:10:58. > :11:00.that is the number one priority for many Iraqis and people in the
:11:01. > :11:09.region, to feel that they can't be working out of territory. One of the
:11:10. > :11:13.things that has always puzzled me of the idea of a so-called caliphate,
:11:14. > :11:18.if this is so popular in such a great idea, why are there so few
:11:19. > :11:24.people? It seems people have been running in the millions to get away
:11:25. > :11:27.from this great idea. Literally in the millions and the idea of a
:11:28. > :11:30.caliphate is not popular. Nobody has been calling for a caliphate in
:11:31. > :11:35.terms of regular social circles are in schools or so forth, this is
:11:36. > :11:38.again to manipulate political failure is all political parties in
:11:39. > :11:42.the Arab world, and there have been many, and also in different parts of
:11:43. > :11:45.Middle eastern countries. We have had different ideas of theocracy
:11:46. > :11:51.working so people look at Iran and think you have theocracy, that
:11:52. > :11:56.works, and it doesn't for many of its people. When you live in a
:11:57. > :12:01.country that is dictated by theocracy is horrific to live in.
:12:02. > :12:08.What has happened is a failure in Iraq and Syria of governance so you
:12:09. > :12:12.had people who were fleeing and groups being formed to fight but we
:12:13. > :12:16.don't have enough time here to go into the failure of how Syria was
:12:17. > :12:22.dealt with which led to where we are on the scene with Iraq, there was a
:12:23. > :12:25.huge security vacuum and 33% of the country was left without any sort of
:12:26. > :12:32.law-enforcement. Imagine what any criminal group underground that also
:12:33. > :12:36.uses religion would do in any part of the world? And people carrying
:12:37. > :12:40.out the world are not the number twos that the US and other allies
:12:41. > :12:46.are targeting and we were joking about how the US would say, or
:12:47. > :12:52.satirical publication visit, 80% of our number twos have been killed and
:12:53. > :12:56.another one takes place. The people carrying out attacks are not people
:12:57. > :13:00.in leadership positions and that the treatment is going to continue
:13:01. > :13:06.whether the finance is in place or not. Did you see anything changing
:13:07. > :13:11.as a result of this? It is not drawn, Glasgow or London next week,
:13:12. > :13:14.fingers crossed, but in terms of what you can actually do more
:13:15. > :13:21.confidently, is there anything people should think about? I think
:13:22. > :13:28.what we can do in terms of hearing people's solutions deeply confusing
:13:29. > :13:32.because we have this issue becoming part of the EU referendum debate in
:13:33. > :13:39.this country so people like Richard Dearlove pop-up and say, what we
:13:40. > :13:42.need to do is leave Europe in terms of how we deal with this crisis in
:13:43. > :13:48.this country and then along comes the Home Secretary and head of the
:13:49. > :13:53.Metropolitan police saying, what we need to do to deal with this is to
:13:54. > :13:58.stay in Europe so we have this really worrying way in which both
:13:59. > :14:10.sides of the EU debate has become triceps fear -- project there. It is
:14:11. > :14:13.the hardest one to tackle with the crisis we are facing. People's fear
:14:14. > :14:19.has become the driving force in the argument. It is also a question of
:14:20. > :14:25.the weakness of democracy and we have to be quite careful because in
:14:26. > :14:32.the 1930s, democracy was quite weak and totalitarian regimes took the
:14:33. > :14:41.helm of the affairs in Europe. There is dissatisfaction about Europe
:14:42. > :14:45.because governments are being seen as weak on security and terrorism
:14:46. > :14:50.and migration. Two distinctive issues, but they have been at the
:14:51. > :14:57.same time. There was a lot of criticism about Turkey and it is not
:14:58. > :15:06.a big deal but we have the rise of the far right and I think it is
:15:07. > :15:09.necessary and urgent that governments, all governments of the
:15:10. > :15:15.European Union and European institutions, look strong and a
:15:16. > :15:22.strong means muscular, then fine, and to act, to be seen as acting and
:15:23. > :15:37.also acting obviously against terrorism, so security. Also in
:15:38. > :15:46.terms of migrants because the floor must be stemmed somehow. That would
:15:47. > :15:48.restore some hope in Europeans and it is extremely important that the
:15:49. > :15:53.far right doesn't continue going the way it does because in the end it is
:15:54. > :15:56.the self-destruction of Europe, I think. He said that heavily, what
:15:57. > :15:58.Reagan to go on to next. The Pope was voted the world's most
:15:59. > :16:00.popular leader this week. I don't remember actually
:16:01. > :16:02.being asked to vote, but is this a vote of confidence
:16:03. > :16:06.in the Pontiff, or a lack of enthusiasm for Obama,
:16:07. > :16:07.Cameron, Xi Jinping, And it comes at Eastertime when -
:16:08. > :16:15.as one British radio DJ put How important is Christianity now in
:16:16. > :16:26.developed and developing countries? How important is the Pope's
:16:27. > :16:32.leadership? It was interesting when people chose the Pope but if you
:16:33. > :16:36.look at the others you can see why! In thinking about this and why he is
:16:37. > :16:47.so popular, I took a look at the ideas about charismatic leadership
:16:48. > :16:52.from a political scientist and she says that charismatic leadership
:16:53. > :16:57.works because of image, because the leaders come from a lower economic
:16:58. > :17:01.background and not the established ruling elite, that the leader has
:17:02. > :17:04.vitality, great composure under stress and determination and
:17:05. > :17:10.stubbornness commode with the revolutionary agenda and actually
:17:11. > :17:13.that's Pope Francis in many ways and I think not many others around that
:17:14. > :17:24.you've mentioned have those characteristics. He is a bit of an
:17:25. > :17:27.outsider, he is not the people expected, he is from South America
:17:28. > :17:33.and has determination. He is also any privileged desertion in a way
:17:34. > :17:35.that other readers to enjoy in that he gets to be moral and spiritual,
:17:36. > :17:43.we need those kind of leaders. Doesn't have too sully his hands in
:17:44. > :17:52.political whiz, he doesn't have to solve migration or be re-elected. He
:17:53. > :18:00.does have two deal with other people and the Vatican saw that as some
:18:01. > :18:05.policy. It is great, but he has been at loggerheads with Donald Trump and
:18:06. > :18:09.they have gone at each other but I want a bracket them together in
:18:10. > :18:12.terms of this phenomenon on people who are attracting followers and
:18:13. > :18:20.attention because they are now pointing out the failures of
:18:21. > :18:24.traditional feel yours of leadership -- failures of traditional
:18:25. > :18:28.leadership. Pope Francis is it additional leader within the church
:18:29. > :18:36.because it depends on the authority people vested in him and legal
:18:37. > :18:41.authorities. People can point to the failures of the status quo in ways
:18:42. > :18:50.the leaders representing the status quo. I did my research by looking at
:18:51. > :19:03.Reader's Digest at who is the most trusted American. It was thanks! --
:19:04. > :19:12.Tom Hanks, followed by Sandra Bullock. The top former actress. You
:19:13. > :19:15.have all been making points about leaders and our disquiet about
:19:16. > :19:20.failures. Leaders have always made mistakes but it seems like if you
:19:21. > :19:29.look around the world it is not a good time for leadership. I think we
:19:30. > :19:33.are stuck in terms of short-term. People look at how much attention
:19:34. > :19:41.leaders are getting. Donald Trump, reality TV, how reality TV has
:19:42. > :19:46.actually enclosed itself on people's psyches which looks real but most of
:19:47. > :19:52.the time it is being made up. One of the issues in the US and Europe is,
:19:53. > :19:58.what people expecting from their leaders? It should be about taking
:19:59. > :20:02.people for, following what is popular, but having a vision and so
:20:03. > :20:05.often we find people lack of vision. That's why we think Pope Francis is
:20:06. > :20:11.popular amongst people who don't follow him. Pope Francis does give,
:20:12. > :20:15.this is my framework, this is what I say, which actually is what some of
:20:16. > :20:18.the militant Islamist movement have answers. You may take the answers
:20:19. > :20:24.but people are desperately trying to find it. And so is, they say we do
:20:25. > :20:28.horrible things but it's OK because we're going to something longer term
:20:29. > :20:31.which is not necessarily right but I think people are believing you can
:20:32. > :20:38.trust someone who rightly has a vision and eagle to go forward with
:20:39. > :20:41.and we don't get that our leaders. There is talk Kim Kardashian is good
:20:42. > :20:47.to be the first president of the United States. Her husband is
:20:48. > :20:53.seeking election so she could be first Lady. The Pope cast a
:20:54. > :20:59.different figure from his predecessor, he couldn't be worse
:21:00. > :21:04.than his predecessor. I have very little patience with popes and
:21:05. > :21:07.legislators. I remember Pope Francis was supposed to be this wonderful
:21:08. > :21:14.man who said after the Charlie Heddle attack, I would understand,
:21:15. > :21:25.someone insulted my mother, I would punch them in the face. -- Charlie
:21:26. > :21:30.Hebdo. But I think Obama was so charismatic because of the person
:21:31. > :21:37.who came after -- he came after. They can be worse after eight years
:21:38. > :21:40.of George Bush. The BBC is running a series on Obama and Obama's
:21:41. > :21:44.leadership and what was interesting was looking at how short memories
:21:45. > :21:48.are, looking at what happened in 2009 and the challenges he faced
:21:49. > :21:52.which were the worst for any American president for a long time.
:21:53. > :21:58.We have different challenges now, in other words, to go back to mean a's
:21:59. > :22:09.point, everything is not what you have done in the past. People are
:22:10. > :22:18.talking about popular leaders. Pope Francis, and Obama was generally
:22:19. > :22:23.liked, being late was part of what was going on for him. When Margaret
:22:24. > :22:26.Thatcher was the Prime Minister there, I think there were many
:22:27. > :22:29.people who disliked intensely but even some of those who disliked
:22:30. > :22:38.intensely still voted for her because they respected her and felt
:22:39. > :22:42.she stood for something. I'm not sure if there is a significant
:22:43. > :22:46.leader today is like that, whose disliked but also still voted for.
:22:47. > :22:49.Ronald Reagan was just as divisive in the United States as Margaret
:22:50. > :22:54.Thatcher was here but there was a similar phenomenon. He was about
:22:55. > :23:02.politics in a way. Maybe it was the actor in him. Banner came riding in
:23:03. > :23:09.on a crest of enthusiasm, won a Nobel Prize since if not being
:23:10. > :23:12.George Bush -- Obama came in. He also made specific promises that
:23:13. > :23:16.have not been fulfilled and so there are ways to measure and hold him
:23:17. > :23:19.accountable in ways, I don't want to see the Pope is unaccountable, but
:23:20. > :23:23.he is not being cast by solving the migrant Isis or hasn't been making a
:23:24. > :23:31.promise about shutting down Guantanamo Bay. I know you're not
:23:32. > :23:36.here to defend the entire United States Constitution, but American
:23:37. > :23:40.politics is in a position of great failure at the moment, isn't it? Not
:23:41. > :23:45.being able to get anything done the matter what party you are in.
:23:46. > :23:47.Absolutely. People like to say the constitution has checked and
:23:48. > :23:52.balances to make sure there was no excess power in any one branch of
:23:53. > :23:55.Government but it can also create a deadlock when nothing advances and
:23:56. > :24:01.has created now I think a very polarised system where it is not
:24:02. > :24:05.even about disagreeing on principle, it is simply wanting to blog the
:24:06. > :24:10.other party with no other agenda. It is the same with Lebanon which has
:24:11. > :24:16.not has a president since 2014 because it won't let them choose the
:24:17. > :24:21.next president and the fact you can have institutions on paper like
:24:22. > :24:26.power-sharing, it is about system failure more than political
:24:27. > :24:30.individuals and Spain has, too. It is the institutions that are
:24:31. > :24:35.failing. Even if we look at the US are UN agencies, 70 years on, people
:24:36. > :24:39.are asking what is the role of the UN? If the Security Council is
:24:40. > :24:46.failing to solve problems like Ukraine, Syria, where world leaders?
:24:47. > :24:54.That is a lack of a failing system. Chocolate, Easter. It is a
:24:55. > :25:00.marvellous aspect of Easter, chocolate. It is not the whole
:25:01. > :25:06.story. Do you find it depressing it has become just another marketing?
:25:07. > :25:13.For many people, it is just buy this stuff, send this card, it is a
:25:14. > :25:19.consumer consumption Festival. Yes. You can get an Easter tree now. I've
:25:20. > :25:23.managed to avoid that. The Pope's message this weekend, what resonance
:25:24. > :25:29.does that have two Catholics around the world? I drew distinction at the
:25:30. > :25:35.start of this. Is there a distinction? There is a clear
:25:36. > :25:38.distinction between western Europe and the rest of the world,
:25:39. > :25:49.particularly countries like France and Britain which are increasingly
:25:50. > :25:53.circular. The problem with that is that a lot of British people assume
:25:54. > :25:57.everyone else is rather like Britain and everywhere else isn't like
:25:58. > :26:05.Britain. For more of the world have very strong religious members of
:26:06. > :26:13.different faiths and we are seeing huge growth in certain religions in
:26:14. > :26:14.parts of the world. That is something people here really need to
:26:15. > :26:15.pay attention to. That's it for Dateline
:26:16. > :26:17.London for this week. We're back next week
:26:18. > :26:19.at the same time. You can, of course,
:26:20. > :26:54.comment on the programme Hello. I hope you make the most of
:26:55. > :26:58.yesterday's sunshine because the rest of Easter is looking rather
:26:59. > :26:59.different. Pretty strong winds out there