:00:27. > :00:28.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:29. > :00:30.The Panama Papers - yet another reason to suspect
:00:31. > :00:33.there is one rule for the super-rich and another rule for
:00:34. > :00:35.Plus: Egypt's dirty war against Islamism.
:00:36. > :00:37.And the people-swap between Greece and Turkey.
:00:38. > :00:41.My guests today are: Mina Al-Oraibi, the Middle East writer.
:00:42. > :00:42.Abdallah Homouda, who is an Egyptian writer.
:00:43. > :00:44.Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, the journalist and columnist.
:00:45. > :00:52.And Michael Goldfarb of Politico Europe.
:00:53. > :00:54.From Bradley - now Chelsea - Manning and Wikileaks,
:00:55. > :00:56.to Edward Snowden, to the unnamed supposed whistle-blower
:00:57. > :00:59.behind the Panama Papers, we have learned a great deal more
:01:00. > :01:01.about the most powerful people and organisations in the world
:01:02. > :01:09.So how significant is the leak of tax files from Mossack Fonseca?
:01:10. > :01:11.And do we really believe this was the work of a whistle-blower,
:01:12. > :01:13.or perhaps an intelligence organisation which decided to call
:01:14. > :01:16.time on some of the world's most unsavoury political leaders?
:01:17. > :01:19.And right from the start we need to say for legal reasons
:01:20. > :01:21.that nobody, anywhere, ever on planet Earth has ever done
:01:22. > :01:38.That we have that over with, what is everyone think? There is nothing
:01:39. > :01:43.unlawful about this. Why has this hit a chord with people
:01:44. > :01:48.more than the likes of WikiLeaks or Edward Snowden. It has set a chord
:01:49. > :01:53.with many people, why is that? We have always lived in a very
:01:54. > :02:01.un-dash-mac unequal Bob weather is one type of behaviour for the elite.
:02:02. > :02:04.And arrest for hours. -- but the inequalities have become so massive
:02:05. > :02:08.that there is a big feeling amongst everybody in the world, whether it
:02:09. > :02:13.is the peasant in the pillage of Africa or here in London, which has
:02:14. > :02:21.some of the richest people in the world, things are not fair, things
:02:22. > :02:24.are not right, and the basic question is, lawful or unlawful, why
:02:25. > :02:29.do you need a secret taxi thing? Someone please answer that question.
:02:30. > :02:34.Tell me those of you who have these accounts, why do you need them?
:02:35. > :02:39.I think you are looking at the wrong people around here!
:02:40. > :02:43.They keep on telling us they have done nothing wrong. We have had
:02:44. > :02:48.statements from our honourable Prime Minister who said he paid his taxes.
:02:49. > :02:51.It might not be the tax, but why do you need it? If there is no gain
:02:52. > :02:56.attached to it? You know quite a bit about Anna,
:02:57. > :02:59.some people believe that that is a place that people put their money
:03:00. > :03:03.because Luxembourg is not a good enough taxis or other places. There
:03:04. > :03:12.has always been something funny about what has been going on there.
:03:13. > :03:18.That is true, but on the set of leaks, it is not clear why now and
:03:19. > :03:23.with Edward Snowden, we knew it took a few weeks to find out about
:03:24. > :03:32.Chelsea Manning. When she released all of these military files from the
:03:33. > :03:36.US Army. So I am not sure. And in another way, what is interesting
:03:37. > :03:41.about these is that it is not anything new, it simply confirms...
:03:42. > :03:46.Who did not know? What newspaper has not had an article about Putin's
:03:47. > :03:51.cronies, for example, enriching themselves at the expense of the
:03:52. > :03:55.Russian people? Who has not known about a variety of other...
:03:56. > :04:00.Iceland's dodgy bank dealings. Then begin to ask who is benefiting from
:04:01. > :04:04.this week? That is what I find interesting. How quickly a lot of
:04:05. > :04:09.people... CIE!
:04:10. > :04:13.You could say that but interestingly there was a blogger called Brookings
:04:14. > :04:22.who said yesterday this has the hallmarks of a Kremlin operation. In
:04:23. > :04:26.other words, that... There are not a lot of American
:04:27. > :04:31.names in there, for example, and a lot of people who are not flavour of
:04:32. > :04:36.the month with the US. The Chinese leadership and the Russian
:04:37. > :04:38.leadership, they are all over the news.
:04:39. > :04:47.One man who is close to the leadership in Syria was mentioned.
:04:48. > :04:52.America is full of states where you can incorporate a secret. Delaware,
:04:53. > :04:57.the home state of the Vice President Joe Biden has hundreds of thousands
:04:58. > :05:02.of corporations registered there, many of them shell corporations,
:05:03. > :05:06.similar to the likes of Panama. Wyoming, home to former Vice
:05:07. > :05:11.President Dick Cheney. All of these things add up. We expect to see some
:05:12. > :05:16.American names eventually, 2.4 TB, but nevertheless, the Americans do
:05:17. > :05:20.not have to go offshore. Leads the big question, who benefits from this
:05:21. > :05:27.week? That has not been made clear five days later.
:05:28. > :05:32.It is a great journalistic scoop. That is correct. It comes from elite
:05:33. > :05:36.that we do not know the source. That is one of the weaknesses from a
:05:37. > :05:40.journalistic story. The way that they have gone through the
:05:41. > :05:45.documents, WikiLeaks with everything online. But the stories have been
:05:46. > :05:47.gathered together to the great credit of different media
:05:48. > :05:51.organisations. Yes, it could they go through the
:05:52. > :05:55.process of cotton people and asking them if they did this?
:05:56. > :06:03.Exactly, no one is questioning how accurate these documents and figures
:06:04. > :06:08.in are. You mentioned the man at the heart of the Syrian regime, he is
:06:09. > :06:12.able to continue to have accounts at a well-known bank and has had this
:06:13. > :06:16.company that is in Panama. But there has been a Foreign Office official
:06:17. > :06:20.that has verified the identity of this person even though he has
:06:21. > :06:24.sanctions on him. Speaking to a regular Syrian in London trying to
:06:25. > :06:27.open up a bank account trying to pay their TV licence or their direct
:06:28. > :06:34.debit, they are unable to do that. That is the point of this being
:06:35. > :06:36.unfair. The taxes are not fair, absolutely, multinational companies
:06:37. > :06:42.get away with paying hardly any tax, we know that. The difficulty of
:06:43. > :06:48.banking today, financial literacy is at its lowest. Trying to fill a tax
:06:49. > :06:56.Dr Read at the moment is so difficult for the ordinary person
:06:57. > :06:59.and this is the point, if you are a regular Syrian or Iraqi 's, when
:07:00. > :07:02.they were sanctions on the people of Iraq under Saddam Hussein, that is
:07:03. > :07:05.starting now and -- that is 13 years now and that has been taken out, he
:07:06. > :07:08.could not speak to Iraqis who had a regular bike again. The same for the
:07:09. > :07:13.servings. Especially when their leader is literally able to get away
:07:14. > :07:18.with murder. Because the world has opened up with
:07:19. > :07:22.the new technology as well. This is happening at a time when good and
:07:23. > :07:27.bad with accurate and inaccurate information. I will now mention our
:07:28. > :07:32.Prime Minister because we have not mentioned him, the Right Honourable
:07:33. > :07:36.David Cameron. I am not telling you that he has done anything wrong or
:07:37. > :07:44.broken. He has said he has paid his taxes. In 2013, he said to the
:07:45. > :07:48.president of the duping council, lay-off offshore accounts, do not
:07:49. > :07:54.touch them. Why, why would you not want to stop this secrecy? The EU
:07:55. > :08:01.has a lot of problems but one of the things that is trying to do is to
:08:02. > :08:06.sort out bandit Ray in banking and offshore accounts. Who is still
:08:07. > :08:10.against this? Our Prime Minister. It leaves you feeling and that is not
:08:11. > :08:13.good. Maybe I suggest that one of the
:08:14. > :08:17.reasons why this has touched so many people is that the scandal is not
:08:18. > :08:20.that which is illegal, the scandal is that which is legal and
:08:21. > :08:25.acceptable or accepted, I should say.
:08:26. > :08:32.We have been living under a system which distinguishes tax avoidance
:08:33. > :08:39.from tax aviation and it was legal when you avoided taxes but not
:08:40. > :08:44.evading taxes. Off-shore accounts have been looked at when the
:08:45. > :08:51.Treasury felt the pinch of the financial crisis, but we have been
:08:52. > :08:55.speaking about that since 2008 and 2009, we acted in 2013, this is the
:08:56. > :09:03.last Revelation, why did it take them that long for this too, and,
:09:04. > :09:07.especially with the fighting with any financial sector, the people who
:09:08. > :09:13.have money, to who to expose and how to expose, this is still heading.
:09:14. > :09:19.There are so many questions that remain unanswered. I am grateful
:09:20. > :09:23.that you mentioned more Bharat. There is a lot of money for the
:09:24. > :09:30.Egyptian people that must be traced. -- more Bharat.
:09:31. > :09:37.I do wonder if this is an assault on the form itself, Mossack Fonseca.
:09:38. > :09:41.The third-largest form of its kind dealing with these accounts. To
:09:42. > :09:44.think that it is the thought largest, that is even more
:09:45. > :09:48.frightening. It is the two law firms that are making these kinds of
:09:49. > :09:54.secret accounts. Larger than Mossack Fonseca. It does seem to be that
:09:55. > :09:57.this will form itself could have been the target of the week. Who
:09:58. > :10:04.will now cost them as a massive asset form with secret financial
:10:05. > :10:12.information? Then you see, is there a state actor involved? See the CIA.
:10:13. > :10:16.Or is it something else? These are the questions that we await who Deep
:10:17. > :10:18.Throat might be in this one. Where do you think it will go from
:10:19. > :10:24.here? One of the discussions about Brexit
:10:25. > :10:29.this entry. One of the applications of this is that from any of these
:10:30. > :10:33.states, it is not entirely sovereign when it comes to getting the tax
:10:34. > :10:36.from people who are resident in the company of people can move and leave
:10:37. > :10:39.money offshore legally as we continue to see. The notion of
:10:40. > :10:42.sovereignty when you are dealing with the super wealthy of the world
:10:43. > :10:46.is gone. The problem is that so many heads of
:10:47. > :10:49.governments and state are involved in this that actually our
:10:50. > :10:53.sovereignty as people, the state, it is undermined by the governments.
:10:54. > :10:59.That is the point that these leaks have really raised. How can I trust
:11:00. > :11:02.the head of government to actually carry out due diligence and try to
:11:03. > :11:09.get taxes put into the system when they are the ones who are leading
:11:10. > :11:10.the tax avoidance and many of these countries?
:11:11. > :11:13.Again, the fundamental question is, why do you need these offshore
:11:14. > :11:19.account if you are not evading or avoiding tax? What is the purpose?
:11:20. > :11:23.Is it because the banknotes last better in Panama than they would in
:11:24. > :11:27.the saves in London? What is it about it?
:11:28. > :11:33.It is electronic! The thing that is really going to
:11:34. > :11:38.affect democracy itself, wherever you are looking at it is trust. We
:11:39. > :11:43.will not trust our leaders and we will not participate because people
:11:44. > :11:49.will come to believe, as they are already doing so, what is the point?
:11:50. > :11:53.There is this elite, the rich people and the politicians are in it
:11:54. > :11:54.together. That is an unfair description but that is what will
:11:55. > :11:59.happen. People who come from undemocratic
:12:00. > :12:02.countries have met this with a shrug and just said, yeah.
:12:03. > :12:08.Let us move on. The case of an Italian
:12:09. > :12:10.student Giulio Regeni - tortured and murdered in Cairo -
:12:11. > :12:13.has reminded the rest of the world of the disappearances of Egyptians
:12:14. > :12:15.and numerous allegations Is the regime of President Sisi
:12:16. > :12:18.countering Islamist terror with its own dirty war
:12:19. > :12:27.against opponents and critics? There is no doubt a terrible problem
:12:28. > :12:31.in the likes of Sinai, and we have seen attacks on officials in Cairo
:12:32. > :12:38.and so on. Is there a dirty war going on?
:12:39. > :12:45.Any war is dirty. To make the dog ate scores of to this war is not
:12:46. > :12:56.fair. -- to make the dirty exclusive to this war. This is a human crisis.
:12:57. > :13:03.It is not acceptable at all. What happened to President Cisse is part
:13:04. > :13:07.of an orchestrated act and I am not happy with that performance of the
:13:08. > :13:11.security forces in Egypt and the police by the way. Some of their
:13:12. > :13:17.acts are the legacy of Mubarak. What happened in this case was, we take
:13:18. > :13:23.it separate from the whole context. We forget that there was an
:13:24. > :13:29.explosion near the Italian Embassy in Cairo on the 11th of July 2015.
:13:30. > :13:36.After that, the Italian Foreign Minister himself, he went to Cairo
:13:37. > :13:43.and said, we will not be intimidated. After that, this
:13:44. > :13:50.unfortunate guy was kidnapped, tortured and killed. There is an
:13:51. > :13:58.orchestrated campaign outside the country to try and implicate.
:13:59. > :14:04.Certain media organisations have been set up to pass the word to each
:14:05. > :14:15.other in order to try to isolate Egypt as much as possible. They
:14:16. > :14:17.failed to do this when President Sisi came to the UK and the Saudi
:14:18. > :14:31.king is in Cairo. The body of that unfortunate man
:14:32. > :14:36.appeared in Cairo on the same day a minister was arriving. Why did we
:14:37. > :14:44.not put into the bigger picture? There is an enemy who wanted to
:14:45. > :14:49.isolate Egypt, attacked two resin and Gildernew start this country.
:14:50. > :14:52.It is also true that there is a dirty war going on as you have
:14:53. > :14:55.acknowledged with people disappearing and being beaten up,
:14:56. > :14:59.all sorts of nasty things happening to people.
:15:00. > :15:05.That is true and it is unfortunate. The case of that man that you
:15:06. > :15:09.discuss, it is a human life and the young man who was kidnapped and
:15:10. > :15:13.tortured. It sheds a light on the Egyptians who are suffering similar
:15:14. > :15:16.feats, unfortunately. The point is that the Security Services actually
:15:17. > :15:27.have a lot to answer for because they are not providing CCTV footage
:15:28. > :15:30.that was requested. They are not coming clean. If a state does not
:15:31. > :15:33.have anything to hide, they would actually help themselves to provide
:15:34. > :15:35.more evidence and that has been a real concern for the Italians. In
:15:36. > :15:39.terms of the Egyptians, there have been 1800 documented disappearances
:15:40. > :15:44.and Egypt on the last year. Nobody knows why. We have to stand up and
:15:45. > :15:48.say that if you want to defend Egypt and that is something I believe that
:15:49. > :15:51.is important for the entire Arab world but for the world, to have a
:15:52. > :15:56.strong and stable Egypt, you have to make sure that these people are
:15:57. > :16:01.protected. We have 80 -- detainees are not being tried, and not only in
:16:02. > :16:04.Egypt. It is important that the government
:16:05. > :16:07.and the president recognised that running a second Army is different
:16:08. > :16:13.from running a decadent state with corruption everywhere. I mean, this
:16:14. > :16:17.is extremely important for him to realise and four other Egyptians to
:16:18. > :16:24.play an active part in trying to feel, to bring some aspiration, some
:16:25. > :16:28.aspirational factor to rebuilding the country.
:16:29. > :16:32.This is about how important Egypt is and The Troubles it has. As well as
:16:33. > :16:36.the difficulties. It is important for you,
:16:37. > :16:40.particularly you, not to say that it is very unfair that we are picking
:16:41. > :16:45.on Egypt, it is happening in other countries. That is like telling us
:16:46. > :16:48.that a man is beating up his wife but other men beat up their wives.
:16:49. > :16:53.To do it should mean so much and I will tell you why. President Sisi in
:16:54. > :17:01.my view, and his inner circle, including those who are torturing...
:17:02. > :17:05.I have friends whose relatives have been stuck in prison for writing a
:17:06. > :17:12.blog. OK? We talk about Saudi Arabia and what it does, they do not know
:17:13. > :17:15.what has happened to these young people who are idealists. The fact
:17:16. > :17:19.that we honoured President Sisi makes us complicit because he and
:17:20. > :17:23.what is happening reminds me of the old state in South America, where
:17:24. > :17:28.people disappeared, torture was the norm. It is becoming normal in Egypt
:17:29. > :17:33.and it is not someone else doing it. Perhaps there are others doing it
:17:34. > :17:36.but President Sisi is doing it and estate is doing it.
:17:37. > :17:39.I think you are very hard under the circumstances. I see things in Egypt
:17:40. > :17:45.but I thank you for trying hard to make Egypt is subject of a higher
:17:46. > :17:50.standard. Michael, the counterargument to this
:17:51. > :17:54.is there are worse things than President Sisi. We see those in
:17:55. > :18:00.Serbia and Iraq. Just next door in Libya. This is
:18:01. > :18:06.what is allowing this to happen. Unfortunately. I had not thought
:18:07. > :18:12.much about the Argentine connection until the numbers came out. It does
:18:13. > :18:17.sound like a dirty war. Someday there will be the grandmothers of
:18:18. > :18:23.Tahrir Square parading around and demanded a future government and an
:18:24. > :18:27.account of what happened. Sadly, whatever we see on this programme
:18:28. > :18:33.about the grotesque human rights abuses that are going on currently
:18:34. > :18:40.in Egypt, to the west, to which Egypt is still somewhat attached and
:18:41. > :18:44.certainly the King is visiting this weekend, Saudi Arabia is attached.
:18:45. > :18:50.They appear to be disintegrating and they have said, if we can have this
:18:51. > :18:54.-- stability in Egypt, this is comparatively small price and it is
:18:55. > :19:00.unfortunate but Matt I am not trying to be over cynical, I am waiting for
:19:01. > :19:06.some reporter in America to ask Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State,
:19:07. > :19:11.basically, she delivered a phone call to Mubarak and telling him his
:19:12. > :19:14.time is up. I am waiting for someone to ask her what she thinks is going
:19:15. > :19:19.on in Egypt and watching things about the President Sisi's
:19:20. > :19:21.government's abuses. No more thing to do it because in America they do
:19:22. > :19:26.not pay attention. Final word.
:19:27. > :19:31.I think it is extremely important to recognise the fact that Egypt has
:19:32. > :19:37.fallen into a trap laid down by the Muslim Brotherhood and their
:19:38. > :19:43.affiliates to make it look military, or present, whatever you like to
:19:44. > :19:49.call it. There are blogs which have to be put right. There are people
:19:50. > :19:53.who were put in prison and the process is not that responsive.
:19:54. > :19:58.There are problems which have to be dealt with but please understand it
:19:59. > :20:01.in the Egyptian context, the situation is very difficult, the
:20:02. > :20:06.people feel limited in their vision and this is wrong and must be
:20:07. > :20:12.addressed. OK, let us move on.
:20:13. > :20:14.When the Ottoman Empire collapsed in the aftermath
:20:15. > :20:16.of the First World War, Greeks and Turks were shipped
:20:17. > :20:18.in opposite directions across the eastern Mediterranean.
:20:19. > :20:20.A hundred years on, our own humanitarian
:20:21. > :20:22.catastrophe involves Greece, the EU and Turkey shipping refugees
:20:23. > :20:25.or migrants across the same stretch of water in an attempt at imposing
:20:26. > :20:31.I mean, it was interesting if the figures are correct, that most of
:20:32. > :20:37.those who were shipped out of Europe to Turkey or from Pakistan, did not
:20:38. > :20:44.presumably fall into the category of Syrian asylum seekers and refugees.
:20:45. > :20:46.That is correct. So far the nationalities have been non-Syrians,
:20:47. > :20:50.unfortunately what is now happening again is that we are not looking at
:20:51. > :20:54.how we are treating people as humans, we are going to their
:20:55. > :20:57.passports and looking at the political realities between each
:20:58. > :21:00.deal that struck. You have Syrians who will be taken to Europe in an
:21:01. > :21:06.orderly fashion which is the correct way of doing this. Those that have
:21:07. > :21:10.come in any legal matter rather than them being illegal, they will be
:21:11. > :21:15.shipped back to Turkey. The talks will take these people. Those that
:21:16. > :21:19.are Syrian are being put in refugee camps to be processed later. Some
:21:20. > :21:25.will be an someone not. Those not Syrian will be deported to the
:21:26. > :21:28.different countries. Each story and person is a common life, especially
:21:29. > :21:32.when you are talking about unaccompanied children, some women
:21:33. > :21:35.and, of course, the traffickers and smugglers still get their money and
:21:36. > :21:38.are pushing them and telling them they can make it.
:21:39. > :21:42.They will double their money because they think that some people will try
:21:43. > :21:45.to same thing again. Some Syrian papers are also being
:21:46. > :21:52.forged, you pretend to be Syrian hoping you can come in. This is not
:21:53. > :21:55.a solution. As you said, 100 years ago people were being put on board
:21:56. > :21:58.and being shifted back and forth. Certain parts of the Arab world
:21:59. > :22:02.weather in Syria or Iraq at the moment, you have ethnic cleansing
:22:03. > :22:07.happening because people want to redraw borders to suit them.
:22:08. > :22:11.I wonder about your point about Egypt is true here also which is
:22:12. > :22:16.that the choice is between order, not very good but it kind of
:22:17. > :22:21.attempted order, or chaos, is that the choice?
:22:22. > :22:25.The choice is even more than that. The Turkish Prime Minister is acting
:22:26. > :22:29.as a contractor for the European Union to send people back so that
:22:30. > :22:35.Europe does not feel the heat of the problem and I think, if I may draw a
:22:36. > :22:41.picture, it is like someone trying to keep the lid over a boiled pot,
:22:42. > :22:47.which is going to explode at some point of the roots of the problems
:22:48. > :22:52.are not dealt with. This is where I am just as hard on
:22:53. > :22:58.the European Union and on Britain that these are human beings. They
:22:59. > :23:02.said to us after the Second World War, never again. Human life will be
:23:03. > :23:07.respected, there will be a human rights degree. That people sign up
:23:08. > :23:11.to the refugee treaties and they are breaking international law
:23:12. > :23:19.absolutely without anybody telling them," hey, guys, this is Europe,
:23:20. > :23:22.you must live by her own rules." But you have to have rules and they
:23:23. > :23:28.have not got them, which is difficult.
:23:29. > :23:36.No, they have rules. Some people are jumping on the ships for economic
:23:37. > :23:41.futures. Abe to tell them that what Europeans did over centuries, which
:23:42. > :23:45.is to go to different places and actually sometimes destroy the local
:23:46. > :23:48.populations in order to make their fortunes, that they had the right to
:23:49. > :23:52.do it and people from parts of Pakistan with the Taliban have come
:23:53. > :23:58.in to not have that right or territory? So Syrians in a strange
:23:59. > :23:59.way have some public sympathy and quite rightly. But what about every
:24:00. > :24:11.clear? -- in a chair? Overnight there were reports of
:24:12. > :24:15.Afghans in Greece getting into fights and violence with Syrians
:24:16. > :24:19.because Syrians were being processed but the strong possibility of being
:24:20. > :24:23.given refugees that is. But the Afghans have already trekked from
:24:24. > :24:26.Afghanistan through Iran and overthrew the mountains into Turkey
:24:27. > :24:31.and they are being shipped back or being press-ganged as we learned
:24:32. > :24:34.this week, and fighting in Serbia on behalf of the region because it is
:24:35. > :24:40.the only be that they can return home or to earn money. I think this
:24:41. > :24:44.will unravel because of the mess. -- Syria. It will continue to be a mess
:24:45. > :24:49.and there is enough international region to stop what is happening in
:24:50. > :24:53.Syria. It will have to be imposed from outside and that will stop the
:24:54. > :24:58.refugee outflow. That is when we can have a solution.
:24:59. > :25:02.Just put the hard-headed point is this, that there is no end to this.
:25:03. > :25:06.This will be the story for perhaps the next 25 years, not with the
:25:07. > :25:09.sectarian problems and the fighting, but also with climate change and
:25:10. > :25:15.other things and four Syrians today, it will be someone else tomorrow.
:25:16. > :25:18.We have travel and technology which allows people to move more freely
:25:19. > :25:23.than before. The identities and citizenships of people are shifting.
:25:24. > :25:26.We have to look at it in a different light. The fact that much of the
:25:27. > :25:31.discussion is about Brexit or freedom of movement, who do you want
:25:32. > :25:34.coming into Britain? No one wants to tackle it seriously, they will look
:25:35. > :25:40.at one citizen because of their passport, rather than the value of
:25:41. > :25:42.that country, counts more than someone else.
:25:43. > :25:46.That's it for Dateline London for this week.
:25:47. > :25:48.You can comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler
:25:49. > :25:51.and if you are heavily involved in tax avoidance,