:00:24. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:29.Should the Zika virus mean the Olympics are moved from Rio?
:00:30. > :00:32.Libya and the new route for refugees and migrants into Europe.
:00:33. > :00:34.Plus: how can Hillary Clinton prepare for the presidential
:00:35. > :00:40.My guests are: Michael Golfarb of Politico Europe.
:00:41. > :00:43.Yasmin Alibhai Brown, the writer and broadcaster.
:00:44. > :00:48.Agnes Poirier of Marianne, and Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab
:00:49. > :00:50.writer and commentator. More than 100 leading health experts
:00:51. > :00:55.are demanding that the Olympic Games in Rio are moved or postponed
:00:56. > :00:57.as a result of the threat from the Zika virus.
:00:58. > :01:00.Given the enormous sums of money involved, the political prestige,
:01:01. > :01:02.the careers of athletes, will the International Olympic Committee
:01:03. > :01:15.What do you think about this? It is quite a shock to get people who are
:01:16. > :01:18.well versed in virology to say that the game should be moved or
:01:19. > :01:23.postponed? It is a shock to have it now, we've known about the Zika
:01:24. > :01:29.virus, I think officially the world health organisation issued an
:01:30. > :01:33.emergency statement warning pregnant women or young women not to travel
:01:34. > :01:39.to Brazil, that was three months ago. So, why do we get this letter
:01:40. > :01:44.now? The average citizen, i.e., asked, relies on the UN or this
:01:45. > :01:51.agency to actually do their work. We have malaria, so many scientists in
:01:52. > :01:54.the world, top rate scientists, working on the subject. Fine, now
:01:55. > :01:59.they are throwing this letter in the public domain. What are we to
:02:00. > :02:02.believe? The world health organisation now says, very quickly,
:02:03. > :02:07.know this is going to be fine. Perhaps they could commission an
:02:08. > :02:13.independent survey, or investigation. That's what struck me
:02:14. > :02:19.about it, you have these experts who say it should not happen, the WHO
:02:20. > :02:24.said that Zika is a real threat, and now say that the games should go
:02:25. > :02:28.ahead. You think, who can we trust? None of us are virology to, what do
:02:29. > :02:35.you think? To be honest, I'm shocked. Who are they? 106 to
:02:36. > :02:42.doctors. Thousands of doctors, they all say the same. Are they more
:02:43. > :02:45.informed than the WHO -- 160. For example, its well-known and well
:02:46. > :02:55.established, these experts in their field. And our other athletes --
:02:56. > :03:00.that athletes, they more about then then the citizens of Brazil? What
:03:01. > :03:06.about the millions of people going to Brazil? Brazil is passing through
:03:07. > :03:09.a very difficult time. There is a huge economy crisis. There is a
:03:10. > :03:17.transitional period, we know that. And a political crisis. Yes, why are
:03:18. > :03:23.those 160 doctors, are they going to make the situation extremely
:03:24. > :03:28.difficult? It's a conspiracy! It's not a conspiracy. It's not. OK, but
:03:29. > :03:39.we have to think of this country and think of their people. Yes, but I
:03:40. > :03:43.don't think 160 doctors are being governed by an evil master
:03:44. > :03:46.elsewhere... They have written this letter... They are not from
:03:47. > :03:54.Africa... They are Americans as well... Americans, yes. Another
:03:55. > :04:02.conspiracy. But what you said is right. Why isn't the WHO changing
:04:03. > :04:07.its message. So drastically, from what it was saying three months ago?
:04:08. > :04:11.That is the alternative conspiracy, if I may say so. All of these big
:04:12. > :04:15.bodies, they know there is so much money at stake. They don't say
:04:16. > :04:19.anything. When you read out the news earlier, I said in the Green room,
:04:20. > :04:26.he's got it wrong. The WHO cannot possibly say that. I think there is
:04:27. > :04:32.something there. But, at the moment... I'm not going into it...
:04:33. > :04:36.Conspiracy of the day! It is not a conspiracy, I think that there's a
:04:37. > :04:40.real threat, I think it's an unknown threat because we don't know enough
:04:41. > :04:45.about it. And I do think that the IOC has to rethink and moved to a
:04:46. > :04:50.different place. It is their responsibility. Is very unlikely. It
:04:51. > :04:55.will not happen, to answer your question, a few minutes ago, the
:04:56. > :05:01.tie-break between the WHO and bees 100 odd doctors, for me the centre
:05:02. > :05:05.of disease control in Atlanta, they say that they agree with the WHO --
:05:06. > :05:09.the use. It is entirely possible that in the world of science, there
:05:10. > :05:14.is a significant minority who disagree and have gone public with
:05:15. > :05:18.it -- these. Fair enough. The deeper question to talk about Brazil is
:05:19. > :05:22.what is happening politically. If there is anything that is a real
:05:23. > :05:26.threat to the Olympic Games, it's possible, I suppose, to see a
:05:27. > :05:30.country that begins to disintegrate politically just at the moment went
:05:31. > :05:36.it is here -- when it is having its political showcase. It happens every
:05:37. > :05:41.time there's an Olympics. There's always a crisis. Yes, it is going to
:05:42. > :05:48.be a shambles... It is not. It is not the same. The traffic wouldn't
:05:49. > :05:54.work, it was going to take ours... And it happens... And the euro in
:05:55. > :06:04.France! It is not the same, I think we should take this seriously. These
:06:05. > :06:06.are professional people. I'm saying that you cannot miss trust
:06:07. > :06:12.professional doctors who have written a letter, you cannot just
:06:13. > :06:16.dismiss them because the WHO says, you need to make a careful note. If
:06:17. > :06:21.they wrote this letter, there might be a danger. If something happens it
:06:22. > :06:25.will be the poorest countries with the poorest women who will pay the
:06:26. > :06:29.price. That is what virology is to do so, the real threat is not to
:06:30. > :06:40.Britain or developed countries, but cases like India, in Africa... The
:06:41. > :06:46.carriers, if they do... Let me say one thing in this case. OK, the WHO
:06:47. > :06:51.said that there are 60 countries who had the virus, are we going to ban
:06:52. > :06:59.all the tourists and visitors from coming to us here? Auto anywhere,
:07:00. > :07:06.simply because those doctors, those 160 said that the virus could be
:07:07. > :07:10.spreading? From a wider angle, I believe the WHO is... How much did
:07:11. > :07:15.they pay you? Part of the conspiracy! Just a final thought.
:07:16. > :07:19.There's one very serious point. Everyone has touched on it in a
:07:20. > :07:24.different way, these international so I could kill showcases, Euro 2016
:07:25. > :07:28.is another one, they breed stresses and strains. The Olympic site going
:07:29. > :07:32.to be a disaster, probably not. They are probably going to be fine.
:07:33. > :07:38.Security concerns in France for Euro 2016, how is that playing out in
:07:39. > :07:43.France? France is in the grip of general strikes. And in two weeks'
:07:44. > :07:49.time, we have the Euro 2016 competition, we are in a state of
:07:50. > :07:57.emergency. 90,000 policemen, they now have other things to do,
:07:58. > :08:01.clashing with extreme left demonstrators industries of every
:08:02. > :08:06.single city in France. Everything is fine! You were speaking, I was
:08:07. > :08:11.reminded of a famous French general who said the left is collapsing, the
:08:12. > :08:15.rear is that thing, the centre... I shall advance! We said many times on
:08:16. > :08:21.this programme... on refugees and migrants closes
:08:22. > :08:24.in Turkey and Greece, it will simply That became especially clear this
:08:25. > :08:29.week, with the loss of more lives and heart stopping scenes
:08:30. > :08:30.of about overturning. But what is the responsibility
:08:31. > :08:33.of Britain, France, and to a lesser extent the United States in Libya,
:08:34. > :08:36.given the role these countries played in the overthrow
:08:37. > :08:40.of Colonel Gaddafi? I mean, do you think that we are
:08:41. > :08:44.reaping what we sow it? In other words, the toppling of a dictator,
:08:45. > :08:48.however horrible, has created conditions of chaos that has allowed
:08:49. > :08:51.people to come through? Toppling a dictator is something -ish truly
:08:52. > :08:59.dangerous, and counter-productive in a way or another. But, Britain,
:09:00. > :09:06.France, the US, they never had a plan B. They had a plan to topple
:09:07. > :09:11.the dictator, he was a tyrant and awful, no question of that. But
:09:12. > :09:15.people were looking at the intervention, military intervention,
:09:16. > :09:21.as a good thing. They are thinking that Nato, 28 of the most civilised
:09:22. > :09:28.countries on earth, they will make Libya a haven. A model for
:09:29. > :09:34.everybody. That has not happened. President Obama, he summarised it in
:09:35. > :09:38.a very emotional way, when he said that the biggest regret of his
:09:39. > :09:42.presidency, his two terms in presidency, was the intervention in
:09:43. > :09:47.Libya. He blamed Sarkozy and Cameron for this to buckle. The problem is,
:09:48. > :09:52.in this programme, we used to say several times that you are sensitive
:09:53. > :09:58.to the problem of migration -- debacle. Libya has about 2000
:09:59. > :10:02.kilometres along the Mediterranean shore. This would be a springboard
:10:03. > :10:08.for illegal immigrant is to come to this country and other parts of the
:10:09. > :10:14.world. Only 300 kilometres between Libya and European shores. That's
:10:15. > :10:19.the problem. The UN fixed the government there, the national
:10:20. > :10:25.government. The problem is, it's completely different from imposing
:10:26. > :10:29.law and order, giving the people what they want. Now Libya is a
:10:30. > :10:36.failed state. Islamic State is moving again. More than 8000 of
:10:37. > :10:40.their fighters have their own emirates and they are expanding.
:10:41. > :10:44.Weapons, there are more than 30 million pieces of weapon there.
:10:45. > :10:48.Africans and Middle East and is coming to Libya, taking the bows to
:10:49. > :10:53.Europe. How are we going to do it now? David Cameron said that we must
:10:54. > :10:57.send a warship to prevent migrants from coming to this country --
:10:58. > :11:01.boats. Something else extremely important is terrorism, what will we
:11:02. > :11:09.do with this? France suffered from this, Belgium... Just some
:11:10. > :11:16.historical context, even when Gaddafi was in power, one of the
:11:17. > :11:21.ways he used to negotiate was his networks, from the Horn of Africa
:11:22. > :11:24.and sub Saharan Africa, with migration, the numbers went anything
:11:25. > :11:29.like we are seeing now, but they existed. He said he can ignore what
:11:30. > :11:33.happens in his ports, but the people would come up, people smuggling
:11:34. > :11:39.routes are well-established. They go back at least one decade. I remember
:11:40. > :11:45.stories about Lampedusa being overcrowded, in 2003, 2004 and 2005.
:11:46. > :11:49.Very small scale. I understand, but the point I want to make his in
:11:50. > :11:52.addition to anything else, with Britain and France, Barack Obama's
:11:53. > :11:59.view is, we will help you guys out but this is your situation to deal
:12:00. > :12:04.with. Neither Francois Hollande or Cameron had a plan for what would
:12:05. > :12:10.happen after they got rid of Colonel Gaddafi. You can do that. You can
:12:11. > :12:13.get rid of a dictator if you are the first world Nato countries, fairly
:12:14. > :12:18.quickly. We saw it in Iraq and Libya. They failed to realise that
:12:19. > :12:24.actually this would reopen... Actually, the frame is different.
:12:25. > :12:29.I'm getting really emotional about this. To talk about these people as
:12:30. > :12:34."Illegal immigrants", you create the mess, the West goes in and creates
:12:35. > :12:39.the mess. That happened in a rock. I remember the nonsense coming from
:12:40. > :12:43.France at the time, -- Iraq. Intellectuals coming on television
:12:44. > :12:47.saying, we have to do this, as if it was a computer game. It seems
:12:48. > :12:55.Western leadership thinks it is a computer game and you are shooting
:12:56. > :12:58.the sky down. There is no... Where did the sub Saharan Africans come
:12:59. > :13:02.from, is that the fault of the West also? You talk about Libya, saying
:13:03. > :13:09.that the Libyans coming here are not well fall immigrants. You create
:13:10. > :13:14.total chaos in that country as if it is a game, and now you take no
:13:15. > :13:21.responsibility? France should take these people. They started it. They
:13:22. > :13:26.should. France. We started it! If I remember, well, it was a UN
:13:27. > :13:31.resolution. To save the people of Benghazi. That is why Britain and
:13:32. > :13:35.France, the Americans did not want to deal with it too much, they
:13:36. > :13:45.intervened. There was no plan B. I could not agree more. What I'm most
:13:46. > :13:55.worried about is IS in Libya. There are public executions every day. We
:13:56. > :13:59.also know that they intend... It is like Raqqa or Mosul, they intend for
:14:00. > :14:05.Libya to be the vanguard of the caliphate. They are closer to Europe
:14:06. > :14:09.and plan attacks on Rome, Paris, and Europe. That is what I worry
:14:10. > :14:15.about... You should worry about the people of Libya as much. It is not
:14:16. > :14:21.about Europe... The people on the boats and large are not people from
:14:22. > :14:30.Libya. Let me explain. Firstly, the people of Libya, now, half of them
:14:31. > :14:35.immigrate to Egypt and it juniors are -- and Tunisia. They are in a
:14:36. > :14:40.very bad situation. 3 million Libyans at least now, they are
:14:41. > :14:46.facing a very difficult time in XL. In Tunisia and Egypt. Because they
:14:47. > :14:49.are looking out for their own safety -- exile. The problem is no one
:14:50. > :14:56.cares for those people. They should care about the Syrian plight and
:14:57. > :15:01.migrants who managed to cross to Europe. Nobody is talking about the
:15:02. > :15:04.Libyans or helping them. Not in France or Britain. What I want to
:15:05. > :15:10.say now is, look, the West are really going back again. France and
:15:11. > :15:15.Britain, the US, they are going back again to Libya. There are special
:15:16. > :15:20.British forces in Libya. Jordanian forces in Libya, French special
:15:21. > :15:25.forces in Libya working there. Because of Isis? Yes. They care
:15:26. > :15:33.about Isis. They do not care about the Libyan people, they do not care
:15:34. > :15:36.about Libya is self. They do not care for anyone else because they
:15:37. > :15:39.ask Ed that Isis could cause problems in Europe. I just want to
:15:40. > :15:45.reiterate this point. -- they ask Ed. We talk about the disintegration
:15:46. > :15:50.of Libya, the migrants coming three Libya, by and large come from sub
:15:51. > :15:56.Saharan Africa and the Horn of Africa -- scared. It seems the real
:15:57. > :16:00.work to slow this mess down is to be done primarily in West Africa and
:16:01. > :16:04.the Horn of Africa. How do you do that and educate people? I've spoken
:16:05. > :16:08.with colleagues who work Africa all the time. I say, don't these
:16:09. > :16:12.pictures get on the news? Pictures like we saw this week, the horrible
:16:13. > :16:19.vote thinking. Of course they are on the news all the time, and everyone
:16:20. > :16:25.knows. If you knew how desperate the situation is... -- boat sinking.
:16:26. > :16:30.Whether there is chaos in Libya or not, it is because of agricultural
:16:31. > :16:36.failure, crop failures, political unrest, because of other things, way
:16:37. > :16:41.south, there will always be a route. Sending one gun boat will not do a
:16:42. > :16:44.lot. It's like we have reached the 21st-century and we still have not
:16:45. > :16:50.worked out a way of making the world a more equal place. When there is
:16:51. > :16:54.such great inequality, right, within nations, even within the West and
:16:55. > :16:58.even more so now between the rest and the West, the poor is
:16:59. > :17:02.unstoppable. By now, we should have had better trade deals, better
:17:03. > :17:09.encouragement for entrepreneurs. It is happening small scale. I don't
:17:10. > :17:13.necessarily disagree, but even this week, you would have seen articles
:17:14. > :17:18.in any number of places about absolute poverty being in dramatic
:17:19. > :17:24.decline. Figures from the UN, the IMF, about how much more money is
:17:25. > :17:28.flowing into Africa. GDP and relative poverty... Fewer access to
:17:29. > :17:32.the Internet, in sub-Saharan African comedy with the cold on, that's a
:17:33. > :17:39.better life and $40,000 I can get it. A perfectly reasonable thing to
:17:40. > :17:46.thing, isn't it? -- you think hold on, a better life and $40,000. The
:17:47. > :17:51.UN do that very well. It is not much talked about, but we are doing
:17:52. > :17:57.things. You cannot blame the West, for all of the evil in the world...
:17:58. > :18:04.I do! You shouldn't! They have done a lot of good. And the Zika virus, I
:18:05. > :18:12.give you that. There are 3 million Libyans left, you should have them.
:18:13. > :18:16.We used to get a lot of refugees from South Africa, OK? It is very
:18:17. > :18:23.hard in South Africa. But there is hope, growth, and a kind of national
:18:24. > :18:28.pride that has grown. And so you get very few people coming now. Things
:18:29. > :18:33.can change. Uganda, it changed and has now gone back again to a
:18:34. > :18:37.dictatorship. I think that Africa is the future. But, until we give them
:18:38. > :18:42.a chance, I would trade deals are rocking to the core when we deal
:18:43. > :18:48.with African countries, right? Then, this flow will carry on. It will
:18:49. > :18:50.help no one. Populations shift in these numbers. Actually. Let's move
:18:51. > :18:53.on. But given Mr Trump's, shall we say,
:18:54. > :19:00.unorthodox style of campaigning, how should Hillary Clinton prepare
:19:01. > :19:03.for the presidential debates? And who should she get
:19:04. > :19:10.to play Donald Trump I'm sure this is exercising much
:19:11. > :19:16.more than policy matters! But debating Donald Trump, giving you
:19:17. > :19:20.trying to debate someone who is a bit of a shape shifter on political
:19:21. > :19:25.matters will be very tricky for her? It's interesting you bring the up
:19:26. > :19:31.debate. Earlier in the week, he said, I'm going to debate Bernie
:19:32. > :19:34.Sanders. In the last few hours, he will not. Exactly. And Bernie
:19:35. > :19:41.Sanders said yes? Yes committee called him out. With burly
:19:42. > :19:47.challengers, you have two stand-up. -- bully. He said he will do it. I
:19:48. > :19:52.don't know what she can do. It will be the two parallel universes in
:19:53. > :20:00.America. Face-to-face, on a television set. They will be talking
:20:01. > :20:05.past each other, over each other, and didn't Donald Trump's case,
:20:06. > :20:09.below each other. It will be a bizarre spectacle -- and in Donald
:20:10. > :20:16.Trump was he called Elizabeth Warren from Oklahoma Poca hunters. I did
:20:17. > :20:19.not get that... Explain. She is one of the leading lights of real
:20:20. > :20:25.liberals, new Deal liberals, the left in America. People thought she
:20:26. > :20:29.might challenge Hillary Clinton. She didn't. Bernie Sanders decided to
:20:30. > :20:34.get into the race when Elizabeth Warren decided to stay out --
:20:35. > :20:38.Pocahontas. She claims to have Cherokee blood. She comes from
:20:39. > :20:43.Oklahoma. The Cherokees were removed from Florida to Oklahoma in an
:20:44. > :20:49.infamous incident at ethnic cleansing. The trail of tears. On
:20:50. > :20:52.her birth certificate, Donald Trump loves birth certificates, it does
:20:53. > :20:57.not make any mention of this. She was challenged on it, and said that
:20:58. > :21:00.her mother... She had a grandmother... It is entirely
:21:01. > :21:06.possible that she has Cherokee blood. So now he calls her
:21:07. > :21:11.Pocahontas. The rudeness of that... I had to censor myself here. It
:21:12. > :21:16.would be like someone coming on, I have an -- and African-American
:21:17. > :21:24.grandfather, and if Donald Trump was to use some incredibly racist term
:21:25. > :21:29.to say... That is shocking. How do you do with that in a televised
:21:30. > :21:33.debate? Presumably, he is playing to a particular gallery that would find
:21:34. > :21:36.that funny or interesting, amusing or intelligible. While the other
:21:37. > :21:43.half of America would think it is just bonkers. I think the only way
:21:44. > :21:47.she can do it is ignore him. One of the tricks you learn in difficult
:21:48. > :21:51.debates is to talk to the audience, not the man. Every time he comes up
:21:52. > :21:58.with something stupid, ignore him, perhaps bring in a slight reference,
:21:59. > :22:04.and do your page. The problem with Hillary Clinton is that she comes
:22:05. > :22:08.across as humourless and tight -- pitch. And defensive, all of these
:22:09. > :22:15.things. She should think I'm going to be in a studio with some zoo
:22:16. > :22:19.animal or cage fighter... I don't have to relate to him, I will relate
:22:20. > :22:24.to the audience. Is the only way she can do it. You cannot talk to this
:22:25. > :22:29.man, can you? I'm not sure, if someone can do it, I think she can.
:22:30. > :22:36.She has prepared since she was a student. She is a brilliant woman. I
:22:37. > :22:39.think that she has everything it takes to combat Donald Trump. Except
:22:40. > :22:43.for one thing. She's been preparing all her life
:22:44. > :22:48.but has not learned how to campaign. And she's been married to the best
:22:49. > :22:53.campaigner in our generation. It is about scoring. She knows about
:22:54. > :22:59.one-liners... There's that old phrase about campaigning in poetry,
:23:00. > :23:02.you govern in prose. She is a very good at the poetry. She wants to
:23:03. > :23:14.convince the people and she has to find a way. He's a bulldozer. Donald
:23:15. > :23:18.Trump. He is funny, he manages to entertain people. Politically, she
:23:19. > :23:23.does not have the sparkle, to be honest. She is not a good debater.
:23:24. > :23:28.That is why I believe the chances of Donald Trump could be much bigger.
:23:29. > :23:35.Already, he got his lot of people. If there is a debate, Hillary
:23:36. > :23:46.Clinton could emerge the greatest loser in this. I'm going to act her.
:23:47. > :23:51.He is Trump... He has made some mad comment, all she needs to do is...
:23:52. > :23:55.And say what she wants to say! I thought the best way to handle it is
:23:56. > :24:04.the Ronald Reagan... There you go again... That kind of thing. Michael
:24:05. > :24:07.Goldfarb suggested could play Hillary...
:24:08. > :24:15.Goldfarb suggested could play She needs Hollywood. She needs the
:24:16. > :24:20.best screenwriters to write the lines. She is very good, that is the
:24:21. > :24:28.American way. She is not going to improvise. We should get Berlusconi
:24:29. > :24:33.income he doesn't have a job! -- income he does not have a job.
:24:34. > :24:39.Unfortunately he is not here, Colonel Gaddafi. He could be a great
:24:40. > :24:46.debater! This is serious, Donald Trump for president, yes, a
:24:47. > :24:53.possibility? I feel your pain! Look, as Professor Eric Finer told me in
:24:54. > :24:57.January, is the best I've heard, once you are the nominee of two
:24:58. > :25:01.major parties, you are in with a chance. I would not bet the house on
:25:02. > :25:06.it. There is nothing I've seen yet that would change my mind. He has a
:25:07. > :25:11.chance, I would not bet the house on it. Precisely because Hillary
:25:12. > :25:16.Clinton is weak, and to come back to this messaging stuff, one of the
:25:17. > :25:20.problems is she's been at it for so long, and those around her have been
:25:21. > :25:24.with her forever. I think that they see each other through a political
:25:25. > :25:29.lens that may have worked 15 years ago. It does not work today. They
:25:30. > :25:34.still very attached to identity politics as a way forward. Yes, it
:25:35. > :25:40.is well past time for America to have a woman president. But it
:25:41. > :25:45.cannot be in 2016, your main calling card. What I fear in debates is
:25:46. > :25:48.that, you know, she will dredge up the horrible things that Donald
:25:49. > :25:55.Trump says about women. And it will not be enough. Also it is inside
:25:56. > :25:56.versus outsider, it has been the decade of the outsider in many
:25:57. > :25:58.countries. Absolutely. That's it for Dateline
:25:59. > :26:00.London for this week. You can comment on the programme
:26:01. > :26:02.on Twitter @gavinesler. We're back next week
:26:03. > :26:05.at the same time.