:00:00. > :00:00.Rights says the army is pressing in from the south-west, while Kurdish
:00:00. > :00:00.forces are pressing in from the north. Now, it is time for
:00:00. > :00:26.Dateline. Hello and welcome to
:00:27. > :00:29.Dateline London. On today's programme,
:00:30. > :00:31.three questions about Britain What would be the impact
:00:32. > :00:34.on immigration? Why does Vladimir Putin want Britain
:00:35. > :00:36.to leave? And if the Labour Party leader,
:00:37. > :00:39.Jeremy Corbyn, wants us to stay, why are some Labour supporters
:00:40. > :00:42.confused about what he thinks? Plus, the world mourns the death
:00:43. > :00:45.of Muhammad Ali. My guests this week are Dmitri
:00:46. > :00:50.Shiskin from BBC global news, Nesrine Malik, a Sudanese writer,
:00:51. > :00:55.Polly Toynbee of the Guardian, Let's begin with the death
:00:56. > :01:01.of Muhammad Ali. How he's seeing now is very
:01:02. > :01:03.different from the way he was seen in America, say,
:01:04. > :01:07.in the early 70s, when some people, The important thing to remember
:01:08. > :01:13.about Ali, I'll always think The important thing to remember
:01:14. > :01:17.about the champ is, he could very easily have gone
:01:18. > :01:20.forward into the Army in 1966 He was required to do so by law,
:01:21. > :01:30.the army would have been very happy to have him, he could have been
:01:31. > :01:33.an exhibition fighter in the Army, he would never have been sent
:01:34. > :01:36.overseas and put in harm's way. Instead, he refused to step forward,
:01:37. > :01:41.refused to be inducted into the army, and he said something that
:01:42. > :01:45.was very memorable, he said, I ain't To American ears at that time
:01:46. > :01:54.at the height of the escalation, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon's
:01:55. > :01:57.era, this was seen as high treason. He was seen as a traitor, seen
:01:58. > :02:00.as a threat to national security. Stripped of his licence to fight,
:02:01. > :02:03.stripped of his livelihood. Completely in exile for three
:02:04. > :02:05.and a half years. During those years, white America
:02:06. > :02:07.very much despised him. There were places he could not go
:02:08. > :02:09.safely, he would need bodyguards to keep him
:02:10. > :02:12.from being lynched or assassinated. So he was seen, really,
:02:13. > :02:14.as a major threat. When his conviction was eventually
:02:15. > :02:17.overturned and he could fight again, there were still people in
:02:18. > :02:20.the South who said, no, forget it, we don't care if he has a licence,
:02:21. > :02:24.he'll never fight in our state, Really despise this man
:02:25. > :02:29.and he was able to fight... He was able to work through that to
:02:30. > :02:40.wear 20 years later or so, when they opened the Olympics in Atlanta,
:02:41. > :02:43.he was the man who lit the flame. Extraordinary act of gravely,
:02:44. > :02:45.actually, what he did, It was a very, very brave
:02:46. > :02:50.and unpopular thing to do. Very brave, he made the politics
:02:51. > :02:53.of race real to people. You know, he was charming, witty,
:02:54. > :02:55.extraordinary, brilliant boxer. But he put himself on the line in
:02:56. > :02:58.a way that was very confrontational to whites in America,
:02:59. > :03:01.white across the western world. They suddenly realised, this is
:03:02. > :03:03.real, this is how people feel. Many
:03:04. > :03:08.of us who never had much interest in boxing to begin with, when he
:03:09. > :03:11.was fighting, somehow he brought people in because as a character he
:03:12. > :03:14.was so interesting, you wanted to The thing that stands out for me now
:03:15. > :03:30.is, you begin to see Muhammad Ali's self aggrandising sort of back
:03:31. > :03:32.patting encouragement to black men through his own self aggrandising
:03:33. > :03:35.meant as something that has had a legacy all the way
:03:36. > :03:37.down to popular entertainment, hip-hop, sport, there is a legacy,
:03:38. > :03:41.a kind of culture, of black men in general trying to shore themselves
:03:42. > :03:43.up, and their confidence up, Yes, it's problematic,
:03:44. > :03:47.it can sometimes be misogynistic, it can sometimes be divisive, but it
:03:48. > :03:50.does strike that there is something political about the sort of
:03:51. > :03:53.obnoxiousness narcissism of it all. Maybe you should explain that a bit
:03:54. > :04:25.more, what do you mean about that? So, for example, there is
:04:26. > :04:27.a criticism and controversy around hip-hop artists, black hip-hop
:04:28. > :04:29.artists, trying to make themselves look better and glorifying
:04:30. > :04:31.themselves and their achievements and the money they have
:04:32. > :04:34.and the women they have, and the fact they are popular
:04:35. > :04:37.and can get what ever they want. But it is a political point as well,
:04:38. > :04:40.it's not just kind of a masculine narcissism,
:04:41. > :04:43.it's also a way to counteract all the subjugation and subordination
:04:44. > :04:45.of the popular culture of tearing Part of that, though, the difference
:04:46. > :04:55.is, presumably, one of the critiques of hip-hop and so one
:04:56. > :04:58.is about bling, consumerism, money. This was somebody who took a stand,
:04:59. > :05:01.he was regarded as a traitor, This was actually very different,
:05:02. > :05:05.even if it put him There's a point Muhammad Ali
:05:06. > :05:10.which is that he... You can only sleep in one bed
:05:11. > :05:13.and you can only drive one car, So he was very anti-materialistic
:05:14. > :05:20.when it comes to that sort of thing. But there is a line to be drawn,
:05:21. > :05:24.a continuity, from him down to the sort of materialistic narcissism of
:05:25. > :05:29.popular culture in black America. I guess this is why he was
:05:30. > :05:32.so welcome in the Soviet Union Not only he was a symbol of black
:05:33. > :05:37.men fighting for their rights across the world, but he also, what was
:05:38. > :05:40.actually behind what happened is that he actually visited Uzbekistan,
:05:41. > :05:43.the Muslim republic of the Soviet That particular side of his trip was
:05:44. > :05:49.not particularly, I guess, It's interesting if you think
:05:50. > :05:58.about what he did for boxing as well, there are many people who
:05:59. > :06:01.could not name any leading boxers, Everybody can name Muhammad Ali,
:06:02. > :06:12.simple as that. He was this great American
:06:13. > :06:14.character, whether... We throw up these ornery, unique
:06:15. > :06:17.geniuses every 30 or 40 years. He was entertainment personified,
:06:18. > :06:21.in every sense, wasn't he? He was funny, he was outrageous,
:06:22. > :06:23.he was clever, and it made boxing scene like
:06:24. > :06:26.a cleverer sport because of him. When he said to the much loved BBC
:06:27. > :06:29.boxing commentator, Harry Carpenter, you ain't as dumb as you look,
:06:30. > :06:32.that was very funny. On that note,
:06:33. > :06:34.let's move on to other matters, because if we exited European Union
:06:35. > :06:37.and adopted an Australian points system for immigration, we could
:06:38. > :06:40.exert more control on our borders, that's what the Leave campaign say
:06:41. > :06:43.about getting out of the EU. But Australia has more immigrants
:06:44. > :06:46.per head of population than the EU. And Brexit would crash the economy,
:06:47. > :06:49.that's according to those who want So, what would happen to
:06:50. > :06:52.immigration if we leave? If we control immigration,
:06:53. > :07:09.is what Vote Leave say. We could, in theory,
:07:10. > :07:11.control our borders. How much we would,
:07:12. > :07:14.I think the Brexiters are being very They know perfectly well
:07:15. > :07:16.how much we need... For instance,
:07:17. > :07:18.the NHS would collapse overnight. If we sent everybody home who was
:07:19. > :07:21.not a British national working for the NHS, it would simply
:07:22. > :07:23.overflow, collapsed tomorrow. They are being very picky
:07:24. > :07:26.about how they describe it. Well, you know,
:07:27. > :07:28.it's a few Poles perhaps, a few In a point system we probably would
:07:29. > :07:49.have all of the people that are coming in now, because they do all
:07:50. > :07:52.get jobs, they don't go on the dole, they don't come here for benefits,
:07:53. > :07:55.they come here to get jobs As you know, this is an extremely
:07:56. > :08:00.potent issue, it suggests there This is something that people
:08:01. > :08:04.are very, very concerned about. This seems to be a solution,
:08:05. > :08:06.at least. The trouble is, it's not economic,
:08:07. > :08:08.it's passionate, it's feeling You know, you live in the east
:08:09. > :08:13.of England and suddenly there are Polish and Hungarian delicatessens
:08:14. > :08:15.all over the place. The schools are suddenly full
:08:16. > :08:17.of children for whom English isn't the first language, European,
:08:18. > :08:19.Eastern European kids. Economic arguments don't really cut
:08:20. > :08:23.across that, so there is no doubt that the Remain stay in Europe,
:08:24. > :08:26.lobby has won overwhelmingly And the people who care most
:08:27. > :08:29.about immigration say, All right, we might be a bit poorer,
:08:30. > :08:33.but I was talking to someone whose
:08:34. > :08:45.family came from the Indian subcontinent this week who said,
:08:46. > :08:47.she's in favour of Brexit because it would be fairer to people
:08:48. > :08:50.like her family, who, because they merit it, would be more
:08:51. > :08:53.likely to get jobs here. Than people from Africa
:08:54. > :08:55.and other places. It's really interesting, actually,
:08:56. > :09:07.that you bring that up. There is a whole part
:09:08. > :09:11.of the immigration debate that is not being parsed sufficiently,
:09:12. > :09:13.which is the difference between EU It's interesting new ways that
:09:14. > :09:17.point, that areas competition between the fight non-EU
:09:18. > :09:19.immigrants and EU immigrants and Then split apart depending on what
:09:20. > :09:32.argument you are trying to make. So when people say, you know,
:09:33. > :09:34.immigration in the UK is a huge problem, we want, basically,
:09:35. > :09:38.all people of colour not to come in and people say, so many non-EU
:09:39. > :09:40.immigrants are coming in... Never mind they are all doctors,
:09:41. > :09:43.nurses, highly qualified engineers and surgeons, because they have to
:09:44. > :09:46.actually meet an income threshold to When it becomes about the EU,
:09:47. > :09:50.it's suddenly only EU immigrants What is happening on the ground is
:09:51. > :09:54.that these are all people competing The Brexit will sent a leaflet out
:09:55. > :09:59.specially to Asians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, saying, do you realise
:10:00. > :10:02.your families are being kept out? Your friends are being kept out,
:10:03. > :10:04.because we're taking Do they go on television and say,
:10:05. > :10:10.we're going to let in lots more Asian families, lots more Muslims,
:10:11. > :10:12.they wouldn't dare, because they It's targeted marketing
:10:13. > :10:17.that's effective. It works in the United States, too,
:10:18. > :10:22.doesn't it? Because people have legitimate fears
:10:23. > :10:26.about migration, everywhere, they have legitimate fears about it and
:10:27. > :10:29.Donald Trump has done very well. Yes, he's certainly found
:10:30. > :10:47.an audience for his rather unusual Yeah, it's the same idea,
:10:48. > :10:50.keep these people away. I agree, it's become
:10:51. > :10:52.a very emotional argument. What interesting in the last week
:10:53. > :10:55.is, the arguments Nigel Farage has been making for 12 years or so about
:10:56. > :10:59.a points system all of the sudden is being parroted by the highest levels
:11:00. > :11:02.of the Tory party coming from Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and
:11:03. > :11:05.like that. His ideas have now become This topic is very close to me
:11:06. > :11:11.personally because I came to this country 16 years ago having got
:11:12. > :11:15.my work permit from the BBC because Britain could not find a Russian
:11:16. > :11:18.speaker to do the Russian broadcast. Another example would be a Russian
:11:19. > :11:21.physicist working in Manchester University becoming a Nobel physics
:11:22. > :11:24.prize winner, he wouldn't have come to this country a few years ago
:11:25. > :11:27.because the highly skilled migrant I think you are right,
:11:28. > :11:31.but in terms of saying, yes, highly But the question is, how many Brits
:11:32. > :11:36.are living abroad and how many of them would have qualified to stay
:11:37. > :11:41.in Spain, for example? One of our colleagues from El Pais,
:11:42. > :11:44.the Spanish newspaper, told me estimates differ, he says, Spanish
:11:45. > :11:47.Estimates are 800,000 Spanish... Many of whom are older and,
:11:48. > :11:52.as he put it, seen as a drain The second point is that I think I
:11:53. > :11:55.come from I think smaller societies should be
:11:56. > :12:00.about flow of ideas and flow Potentially,
:12:01. > :12:06.we can talk tactics strategically. I think
:12:07. > :12:07.the world is connected place. If we didn't have turkey inoculation
:12:08. > :12:10.parties in the 18th century, those things wouldn't have been
:12:11. > :12:14.brought to Britain. Strategically, Europe is going
:12:15. > :12:16.to have to think about this. The idea that you can have total
:12:17. > :12:20.freedom of movement is under great threat, because you have
:12:21. > :12:22.Marine Le Pen in France, you have, you know, the Austrians very nearly
:12:23. > :12:26.taken over by a far right party. I'm not sure it's going to be
:12:27. > :12:29.sustainable to have no break I don't think one country can do it
:12:30. > :12:35.on its own, But I imagine within
:12:36. > :12:39.the next five years Europe is going In five years, you may well not have
:12:40. > :12:56.a single prominent national leader making an argument in favour
:12:57. > :12:59.of the free movement of people. That's the main topic about that,
:13:00. > :13:02.right? So, time and time again we're
:13:03. > :13:05.about the European Union as a political union and end up
:13:06. > :13:07.discussing an economical union. Because, obviously, you know, when
:13:08. > :13:11.initially there was the union of steel and coal that was one group of
:13:12. > :13:15.pretty even countries, then suddenly It's natural that people
:13:16. > :13:18.from Eastern Europe will be coming But they come here, spend money,
:13:19. > :13:26.earn money, spend taxes back. You have this conflict,
:13:27. > :13:28.where you have you have, say, Poland and Hungary,
:13:29. > :13:30.absolutely determined to keep free movement, because their people are
:13:31. > :13:34.coming to richer countries. On the other hand, they are putting
:13:35. > :13:37.up the biggest steel fences against any Syrians or anybody else
:13:38. > :13:40.arriving on their patch. Let's move on,
:13:41. > :13:46.because there's a bit of a puzzle. Why does Vladimir Putin support
:13:47. > :13:49.the cause of those who want us to So, the Russian press has been
:13:50. > :14:03.having a field month about that. It's being portrayed as,
:14:04. > :14:05.you know, the country's engulfed in the situation, very close to
:14:06. > :14:08.a Shakespeare play, whatever you take, so it's that the magnitude
:14:09. > :14:11.of what is happening is huge. Interestingly enough,
:14:12. > :14:12.the press is extremely complement of politicians who are seen
:14:13. > :14:15.as standing up against the European Union domination, seen as finally
:14:16. > :14:18.breaking away from this kind of huge So, clearly,
:14:19. > :14:23.supporting Brexit as well. David Cameron seen
:14:24. > :14:25.as somebody who is trying to scaremonger people into, bullying
:14:26. > :14:27.people into, voting Remain. I think, overall,
:14:28. > :14:32.the picture is very clear. The more destabilised the
:14:33. > :14:35.European Union is, in any shape or form, be it
:14:36. > :14:39.migration from the east or any other You don't have
:14:40. > :14:44.a single entity talking to Russia with a single voice,
:14:45. > :14:46.you suddenly have 20 plus countries, each trying to potentially actually
:14:47. > :14:49.get something back from Russia I've read some stories about, you
:14:50. > :15:11.know, Putin was in Greece recently. Courting Greece, Bulgaria,
:15:12. > :15:13.Orthodox countries, and some kind of, I don't know,
:15:14. > :15:16.cultural union of the orthodox? Remember that in some point in time,
:15:17. > :15:18.when Russia and Belarus used to have this union,
:15:19. > :15:23.which they still have, but not really, Serbia, at some point
:15:24. > :15:26.in time wanted to join as well. Not having a single border with
:15:27. > :15:30.any of these two countries. I think, generally, if you think
:15:31. > :15:35.about it, this is seen as... Russian press has been portraying it
:15:36. > :15:38.as the start of the collapse That's the way it's seen
:15:39. > :15:44.by the Russian press? Oh, yes,
:15:45. > :15:49.and I think it will be a little bit different how Russian press in
:15:50. > :15:52.Russia for internal consumption, Russia today in English would
:15:53. > :15:56.probably be a little bit different If you think about it, the people
:15:57. > :16:03.they get to conduct interviews for the Russian main channels, they
:16:04. > :16:05.obviously all will have, probably will be coming from the very fringes
:16:06. > :16:09.of the establishment as we know it here, for example,
:16:10. > :16:11.but they will sometimes be portrayed as people who talk in mainstream
:16:12. > :16:14.politics, which is not true. I agree with you completely,
:16:15. > :16:19.it's quite clear, it makes perfect sense, Putin lived through the
:16:20. > :16:21.dismemberment of the Soviet empire. Right now he is seeing
:16:22. > :16:23.a parallel here, where the British are perhaps going
:16:24. > :16:26.to break themselves out of this huge block and he could also see that as
:16:27. > :16:34.potentially a first chink in Nato. Though they are not
:16:35. > :16:36.going to leave Nato. It makes perfect sense it would
:16:37. > :16:42.fit his mid term strategic goals. I think it's really interesting
:16:43. > :16:45.that you can actually... A lot of people have performed
:16:46. > :16:48.ventriloquism his behalf. He's never actually come out
:16:49. > :16:50.and said very clearly, Maybe because he's clever enough
:16:51. > :16:57.to know that it would be a huge What they are doing is lining up all
:16:58. > :17:04.these bogeyman, who support Brexit. Trump thinks Brexit is good,
:17:05. > :17:09.Putin now thinks Brexit is good. It's interesting that
:17:10. > :17:17.for someone who is not backward in coming forward he hasn't
:17:18. > :17:20.actually made a very clear statement There's a good reason why,
:17:21. > :17:22.after all, if you think what happened at the
:17:23. > :17:26.collapse of the USSR, Europe took in those Eastern European countries
:17:27. > :17:28.in order to protect them from ever It was seen by a lot of Russians
:17:29. > :17:34.as being a hostile act. The fact that we almost suggested we
:17:35. > :17:37.would defend them, We have played around
:17:38. > :17:46.at the edges of their empire in ways that, of course, they would
:17:47. > :17:49.want Europe to be weakened. Plus you also have these things
:17:50. > :17:54.went, locally, if you have some For example,
:17:55. > :18:04.when Cameron or the Leave campaign or Brexit campaign mention him
:18:05. > :18:07.in any sort of circumstance, for example, they put him in the
:18:08. > :18:11.same sentence as IS, for example. IS will be happy about, you know,
:18:12. > :18:14.Britain leaving, and Putin will be. Obviously, the Kremlin doesn't like
:18:15. > :18:18.that kind of comparison, do they? Let's move on because the leader of
:18:19. > :18:25.the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, has been accused of some Labour Party
:18:26. > :18:28.supporters of not being clear enough on why he thinks Britain should stay
:18:29. > :18:31.within the European Union. Mr Corbyn blamed, in part,
:18:32. > :18:33.the mainstream media. He's been particularly critical of
:18:34. > :18:36.the Guardian newspaper and the BBC. One of the problems is that he
:18:37. > :18:42.simply is unaware It's as if he only has one eye
:18:43. > :18:48.when he looks. When he sees the press, he sees
:18:49. > :18:51.everything in the centre from the I don't think he probably ever reads
:18:52. > :19:00.or knows about the rest of it. Just as he doesn't realise
:19:01. > :19:03.there are conservative He's only interested in winning
:19:04. > :19:08.over the greens and the far left. If he doesn't get 1000% support from
:19:09. > :19:17.the Guardian or The New Statesman, or indeed, as he sees it, support
:19:18. > :19:21.from the BBC, then they are hostile. It's part of the dysfunctionality of
:19:22. > :19:29.his political vision, I'm afraid. The Guardian, The New Statesman,
:19:30. > :19:34.he gets a better shout from us. We're a wide rainbow of people,
:19:35. > :19:36.pro-Corbyn and anti-Corbyn. He gets a better shout
:19:37. > :19:39.from us than anyone else. I don't think he knows the
:19:40. > :19:41.Daily Mail exists. I mean, there is
:19:42. > :19:47.a view within Labour, and we've seen half a dozen former people who fled
:19:48. > :19:51.the party, including a couple who fled it for a short time, being very
:19:52. > :19:58.clear that Labour is for Remain. That message hasn't got
:19:59. > :20:01.through to many people, and some people are blaming Jeremy
:20:02. > :20:04.Corbyn for not being loud enough. I think Corbyn has not
:20:05. > :20:07.been forceful on this. He's been outmanoeuvred or certainly
:20:08. > :20:10.outshined by Sadiq Khan, who made a Made a big appearance with
:20:11. > :20:19.David Cameron and made it very clear how much he thought London had
:20:20. > :20:21.riding on a Remain vote. Corbyn is not good
:20:22. > :20:24.at getting his message out, and it's hard to tell how important
:20:25. > :20:27.this is or is not to him. The most articulate spokesman I've
:20:28. > :20:31.heard on this topic in the last 18 months has been Tony Blair,
:20:32. > :20:34.who is completely discredited. Nobody wants to put Tony Blair
:20:35. > :20:38.forward but, in fact, if you dig out some interviews, he's given Radio 4
:20:39. > :20:41.over the years, he can make the most passionate, intelligent,
:20:42. > :20:44.rational case for remaining. Such a shame he didn't
:20:45. > :20:47.when he was Prime Minister, he didn't make one single speech about
:20:48. > :20:53.Europe in this country in 13 years. The only speeches he ever
:20:54. > :20:55.made were in Europe. Oh, no, it wasn't, he said,
:20:56. > :21:03.I'm going out there to a summit to So he was complicit,
:21:04. > :21:07.as Labour have always been, I think it's so interesting Tony
:21:08. > :21:10.Blair has kind of come online now. Because you see the contrast
:21:11. > :21:13.between him and Corbyn. Then you see the contrast
:21:14. > :21:15.between the sort of centre-left, wooing of the centre,
:21:16. > :21:17.winning over conservative voters, Old school, kind of regressive,
:21:18. > :21:28.fixated, hard left infighting you So you think, if we don't think
:21:29. > :21:37.Corbyn is being, sort of, centrist enough or are wearing off of people
:21:38. > :21:41.who vote Tory and thinking, you are Tories, you are the lost case,
:21:42. > :21:44.we'll just go and try and win more left-wing voters,
:21:45. > :21:47.if we think that is the wrong way to go, surely the contrast that is
:21:48. > :21:51.Tony Blair and how he did things. I think what's been absolutely
:21:52. > :21:56.fascinating in how the past few months have played out is that what
:21:57. > :22:00.is clear is the British left doesn't know what it wants in terms of how
:22:01. > :22:03.it's going to govern, let alone how There are those who say, in fact,
:22:04. > :22:10.there was an article in the Guardian this weekend that suggested the
:22:11. > :22:13.British left has got a tough press because the press in general likes
:22:14. > :22:16.to pick winners and people who are successful and they don't see
:22:17. > :22:19.Jeremy Corbyn as a likely The same for Gordon Brown,
:22:20. > :22:25.I completely agree. I think Corbyn is not the most
:22:26. > :22:29.effective or charismatic person. But he has got a beasting
:22:30. > :22:34.from the press. For viewers abroad,
:22:35. > :22:38.the press in this country is about 85-90% solidly, rabidly
:22:39. > :22:44.right-wing, rabidly anti-European. Any Labour government has to fight
:22:45. > :22:48.against a wall of sound against it. It's only when it looks as if it's
:22:49. > :22:52.actually going to win that they I don't think any other country
:22:53. > :23:02.has as unjust a press as we do. What has also become clear is that
:23:03. > :23:04.this paralysis, some kind of second guessing of the position
:23:05. > :23:08.at the top trickles down in a very Because effectively what's happening
:23:09. > :23:12.is there is no clear signal from the structure of the party as to
:23:13. > :23:15.what the party is all about, right? That means that I haven't had,
:23:16. > :23:18.as a citizen of London, I haven't had a single conversation
:23:19. > :23:21.with a Labour supporter who will knock on my door and talk to me
:23:22. > :23:25.as a voter about the position. I've had a few Tories stopping by
:23:26. > :23:28.in the area where I live. I'm thinking, well,
:23:29. > :23:30.can it be that if the country, if the party is disorganised or
:23:31. > :23:34.confused in that sort of sense, you won't have enough time to organise
:23:35. > :23:40.yourself in the next three weeks. I think Corbyn is very good
:23:41. > :23:44.on the two or three issues he harps NHS, workers' rights, socialism,
:23:45. > :23:50.everything that is sort of obviously But when it comes to any sort
:23:51. > :23:57.of more nuanced topic, he resorts to the sort of
:23:58. > :24:02."I'm not that sort of politician". The shame is that in
:24:03. > :24:05.the next few weeks it is absolutely He made a good speech,
:24:06. > :24:12.quite good speech, this week. He needs to be out there all over
:24:13. > :24:15.the country with all his people. It's the kind of thing that would
:24:16. > :24:18.unite his party around him. He's missing the opportunity for his
:24:19. > :24:21.own self-interest to bring the right of his party in, to say we are all
:24:22. > :24:25.in this together, we passionately And it's not clear he
:24:26. > :24:28.wants to unite his party. Is Labour going to try
:24:29. > :24:33.to get people to vote? In lots of areas they are,
:24:34. > :24:40.a lot of people are out there But you need the figureheads,
:24:41. > :24:43.all the main figures out there. It's true they don't get reported
:24:44. > :24:45.nearly as much The fact Hilary Benn,
:24:46. > :24:51.Harriet Harman, these people are out there campaigning,
:24:52. > :24:53.it is not newsworthy compared to the wonderful split in the Tory
:24:54. > :24:57.party, which is fascinating. It is a Tory service,
:24:58. > :24:59.that's for sure. Brexit is a Tory circus
:25:00. > :25:01.from start to finish, It's a Tory circus but it has also
:25:02. > :25:10.become a personalised Tory circus. It's so interesting, people saying,
:25:11. > :25:12.you know, Boris Johnson's father thinks this, there is a schism
:25:13. > :25:15.in the Cameron family. Within the Tory party, Gove
:25:16. > :25:22.wants to be out and Cameron There is this massive
:25:23. > :25:25.extended family feud. And you see Boris's sister on TV,
:25:26. > :25:28.the whole thing keeps going. You make it sound more
:25:29. > :25:31.like a soap opera than a vote. It's the most important
:25:32. > :25:33.vote we will have... Most important soap opera
:25:34. > :25:36.we'll have in our generation. On that sombre note,
:25:37. > :25:39.that's it for Dateline London this week - you can comment on the
:25:40. > :25:42.programme on twitter, @gavinesler. We're back next week
:25:43. > :25:44.at the same time. Yesterday sunshine wasn't spread
:25:45. > :26:10.particularly far and wide, but there will be more sunshine
:26:11. > :26:13.on offer for today. So we saw some big contrasts
:26:14. > :26:15.for today. Beautiful blue skies,
:26:16. > :26:18.a lovely picture Jennifer sent in,