:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:28.The murder of a British Member of Parliament - Jo Cox.
:00:29. > :00:30.Is it time to change the way we think of politicians?
:00:31. > :00:32.And, inevitably, something which might not change how
:00:33. > :00:35.we think of politicians - the EU referendum and Brexit.
:00:36. > :00:38.My guests today are: Marc Roche of Le Point and Le Soir,
:00:39. > :00:41.Brian O'Connell, who is an Irish writer and broadcaster,
:00:42. > :00:47.Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg News and Alex Deane of Conservative Home.
:00:48. > :00:50.They are "only in it for themselves."
:00:51. > :00:52."Careerists" who have never done a "proper job."
:00:53. > :00:55.From Los Angeles to Berlin, Birmingham to Buenos Aires, you hear
:00:56. > :00:57.the same sort of complaints, often amplified by anonymous
:00:58. > :01:02.The murder of a young woman politician, a mother of two
:01:03. > :01:04.children, reminded us that British politicians are mostly
:01:05. > :01:08.approachable, hard working, and - let's be honest -
:01:09. > :01:10.normal, including in making mistakes.
:01:11. > :01:15.Will Jo Cox's murder perhaps moderate the hatred
:01:16. > :01:24.of politicians, including that in the mainstream media?
:01:25. > :01:34.Do you think that some of this hatred has gone too far? One of the
:01:35. > :01:39.things we have In common is that we treat our politicians like dirt,
:01:40. > :01:42.which is absurd. But the most part, politicians are decent people who
:01:43. > :01:46.have gone into that career because they want to make a positive
:01:47. > :01:49.difference. The next point is that it is very difficult to see how much
:01:50. > :01:54.short of isolating them and making them more different from us, you can
:01:55. > :01:58.protect them completely. Jo Cox was not killed and her surgery or In the
:01:59. > :02:03.House of Commons, or somewhere she might have conventional expectations
:02:04. > :02:07.of protection. She was killed on the street. Unless we are saying our MPs
:02:08. > :02:12.can't walk down the streets without some form of extra protection, or
:02:13. > :02:15.element of being removed from society, you are right that has to
:02:16. > :02:19.be a change In the way we perceive them as talk about them, because
:02:20. > :02:23.they are normal, decent human beings. Very occasionally, a stark
:02:24. > :02:34.event like this happens which should serve to remind us of that. Sarah
:02:35. > :02:37.Palin said his basic or vocation for the job is that he is not a
:02:38. > :02:45.politician. You wouldn't say that about a dentist. Have we got to the
:02:46. > :02:53.stage now where anybody In politics is kind of tainted, has a track
:02:54. > :02:56.record? The anti-politics mood has gotten so highly. I think there is
:02:57. > :03:02.that, but I hope this incident reminds us that the majority of MPs
:03:03. > :03:08.are going into it with good intentions and are not necessarily
:03:09. > :03:11.In it for themselves. They don't dominate the news headlines because
:03:12. > :03:19.they are just going about doing their job. I do think it would be a
:03:20. > :03:22.shame if this resulted In people not wanting to go into politics, people
:03:23. > :03:29.being afraid to enter the public sphere. They are putting themselves
:03:30. > :03:33.Out there every day, and subjecting -- they are subjected to attacks.
:03:34. > :03:38.Particularly female politicians, as we have seen of the past month or
:03:39. > :03:43.so, being attacked endlessly on Twitter. Having very little recourse
:03:44. > :03:48.and very little way to respond. But something I want to touch on. Female
:03:49. > :03:53.politicians In particular gaps the kind of absolutely horrendous abuse.
:03:54. > :04:00.All politicians get some of it, but female politicians seem to get more.
:04:01. > :04:06.Yes, and I think Jo Cox had been receiving e-mails, which we know
:04:07. > :04:10.from the police, before this happens. Not necessarily from the
:04:11. > :04:17.same man who has been arrested and charged. I think it's something that
:04:18. > :04:21.has been pointed Out, but there has been no real response. The police
:04:22. > :04:25.need to take this far more seriously when the male politicians are
:04:26. > :04:37.attacked by trolls on Twitter. A male politician was stabbed. Stephen
:04:38. > :04:40.Timms. Ian Dow was murdered. The Telegraph carried a story on the
:04:41. > :04:45.front page today about several female MPs who had written to the
:04:46. > :04:47.Parliamentary authorities In the last year complaining that security
:04:48. > :04:51.provided for them was inadequate, including one saying that unless
:04:52. > :04:55.security In our constituencies improves, I fear is that the
:04:56. > :04:59.terrible as gods happen. And the big, had effectively rejected that
:05:00. > :05:05.something like this might happen. The flip side is that I think it is
:05:06. > :05:08.a great asset In British democracy that our MPs are accessible, live
:05:09. > :05:12.amongst their constituents, are part their everyday lives. Getting that
:05:13. > :05:19.balance right is something we got to bear In mind. There is a hatred of
:05:20. > :05:23.politicians In Ireland as well. Do you think part of it is that we've
:05:24. > :05:28.all gone three hard times. We don't like the way they didn't predict it.
:05:29. > :05:34.It's all gone wrong understanding rotten in the system. That's true in
:05:35. > :05:38.most democracies. Yes, and in Britain the expenses scandal had a
:05:39. > :05:46.lot to do with this. I think that's really where the current wave has
:05:47. > :05:51.started. The phenomenal Donald Trump is partly because of the failure of
:05:52. > :05:55.establishment politicians to address issues like immigration and
:05:56. > :06:00.globalisation and the effect that has unemployment. So you have a
:06:01. > :06:03.whole blue-collar swathe of voters saying we don't like establishment
:06:04. > :06:08.politicians any more because they don't represent us. Here, it's
:06:09. > :06:13.slightly different. It's very difficult to see how you can protect
:06:14. > :06:16.politicians, and he's in this country. The very being, the
:06:17. > :06:22.essence, of a public workers resented it is that you're meeting
:06:23. > :06:27.the public. As you pointed out, she wasn't actually killed in her
:06:28. > :06:33.surgery or in her office, she was killed on the street. How is this in
:06:34. > :06:37.France? President Hollande was shocked by it. Angela Merkel made
:06:38. > :06:44.some comments. This is something politicians across Europe are very
:06:45. > :06:47.worried about because of the attitude that all politicians are
:06:48. > :07:02.rotten. There is a difference with Britain. In Britain, I find MPs are
:07:03. > :07:08.much more incompetent -- there is no surgery. Very often it is much more
:07:09. > :07:13.the top of the party that aside the business. Britain is a fantastic
:07:14. > :07:23.system will stop if they system where you have a direct contact with
:07:24. > :07:26.your constituents. Ireland remove Racine David Cameron in his
:07:27. > :07:31.constituency in Witney. He told me he had seen eight people might say.
:07:32. > :07:36.I was saying, but he is the Prime Minister. He has other things to do.
:07:37. > :07:39.It's a fantastic system. We have to preserve it. The problem is that you
:07:40. > :07:47.cannot, especially at a time of referendum, when people get
:07:48. > :07:53.extremely -- extreme in their views on both sides. Jo Cox wasn't killed
:07:54. > :07:58.in a vacuum, she was killed because of xenophobic, hateful... We have to
:07:59. > :08:04.wait and see what the trial will produce. The rhetoric does touch on
:08:05. > :08:11.a point. A lot of the rhetoric in this referendum has not been about,
:08:12. > :08:19.this is how the economy might be, it's been about, you are no good, on
:08:20. > :08:23.both sides. You began by setting out that we treat MPs badly and I
:08:24. > :08:27.accepted that premise. What I don't agree with is the attempt to
:08:28. > :08:30.politicise this woman's death. Mind you might this is the act of a
:08:31. > :08:36.madman, the act of someone who must be condensed. It sits outside the
:08:37. > :08:40.conventional little system. The attempt to ascribe blame to the
:08:41. > :08:44.campaigns or order politicians conducting their political affairs
:08:45. > :08:46.in this country to the best of their ability is one of the most
:08:47. > :08:50.pernicious and unpleasant things I have seen... Would you accept,
:08:51. > :08:54.without making that direct reference, that there are political
:08:55. > :08:57.systems, thinking of Northern Ireland where I spent a long time,
:08:58. > :09:03.were people say things which are incendiary and other people take
:09:04. > :09:08.that up as a mission to do stuff. I'm not sure I would. In the end,
:09:09. > :09:11.part of the vital discourse in a democratic society is free speech.
:09:12. > :09:14.Some of it is pointing out what you believe to be truth, and some of
:09:15. > :09:20.that truth is unpalatable to others. In this debate, but the first time
:09:21. > :09:23.in a generation in our country, we have been debating immigration. I
:09:24. > :09:26.think that's good and healthy. I think the unhealthy thing is our
:09:27. > :09:38.unwillingness for the last 20 years to address directly. You treat the
:09:39. > :09:44.problem, the problem of immigration. It was xenophobic, it was nasty. It
:09:45. > :09:51.made a whole group of people, including myself, it made us wonder
:09:52. > :09:55.what is our future in this country? That was big climate created where
:09:56. > :10:01.some not, and I'm not saying there is any link between what happens and
:10:02. > :10:09.the campaign, some not will get so worked up against immigrants that he
:10:10. > :10:12.will take a target. What are people supposed to do? This is a campaign
:10:13. > :10:18.about a referendum were people have been accused of being unfair. We may
:10:19. > :10:26.not have another chance to vote. If you believe that, what should you
:10:27. > :10:33.do? There's only one person saying you lot and divisive in that way.
:10:34. > :10:42.Nigel Farage came up with this poster which has been criticised.
:10:43. > :10:45.Breaking point, it says. Was that factions? I can't imagine that he
:10:46. > :10:55.would have gone ahead and done that without Vote Leave knowing about it.
:10:56. > :10:59.He is a member of Ukip. To be clear, I wouldn't distance myself from that
:11:00. > :11:03.poster. No, I wouldn't. That's where we come across the difference
:11:04. > :11:05.between those who coalesce around the league perspective and say, I
:11:06. > :11:09.dismissed the concerns of the everyday members of the public, and
:11:10. > :11:15.those who are willing to say I think this has gone too far. This is a
:11:16. > :11:20.photograph something that actually happened. That was not happening on
:11:21. > :11:23.the shores of Britain. That was a misrepresentation. I don't did
:11:24. > :11:28.anyone is suggesting it was happening on the shores of Britain.
:11:29. > :11:32.As soon as say, that's now, you are racist for having those views and
:11:33. > :11:35.therefore I win, I think that's a pernicious aspect of what is
:11:36. > :11:40.happening, not just in this debate but in the last 20 or 30 years. One
:11:41. > :11:44.of the issues from what Alex says is true, part of the reason that leaves
:11:45. > :11:50.are now ahead in the polls is that the remaining sides have not been
:11:51. > :11:54.able to say, yes, you have a legitimate concern about
:11:55. > :12:00.immigration. All the people who are going to Vote Leave, have legitimate
:12:01. > :12:05.concerns about immigration, however, leaving the EU will not solve those.
:12:06. > :12:11.What the remains I'd have done is said we will talk about the economy
:12:12. > :12:15.and the Leeds side have banged the immigration issue the whole time.
:12:16. > :12:18.Because there is no acceptance by remainder there is a legitimate
:12:19. > :12:26.concern about immigration In this country, as they should be able to
:12:27. > :12:37.say that it will probably make it worse. You have the single market,
:12:38. > :12:44.you take advantage of it. You cannot put into question the free movement.
:12:45. > :12:49.What the Remain cap has failed to point Out is how the economy now,
:12:50. > :12:55.just this week we had figures showing 5% unemployment, the lowest
:12:56. > :12:59.rate In 11 years. There are vast sectors of the economy that are
:13:00. > :13:05.incredibly dependent on EU migrant labour. Without that flow of labour,
:13:06. > :13:08.we will be In deep trouble. Know one around this table relies on public
:13:09. > :13:12.services the way people In the United Kingdom do. It's very easy
:13:13. > :13:16.for us to dismiss those concerns. I don't know how often you use the NHS
:13:17. > :13:21.or have received benefits, or your children are In state schools, or
:13:22. > :13:24.under pressure from the increased population. The glib dismissal of
:13:25. > :13:29.any concern along those lines, not just by you but by the broad
:13:30. > :13:41.political media and mainstream, is one of the big flaws. It isn't In an
:13:42. > :13:44.even way. The people who are most dependent on the state, who have the
:13:45. > :13:51.largest concerns about immigration, I dismissed the most. The British
:13:52. > :13:54.government should investigate the NHS that might invest In the NHS.
:13:55. > :14:02.It's not the fault of these people who work and have a right. And the
:14:03. > :14:06.like of investment may not be a matter of priority In the end.
:14:07. > :14:09.There's only so much to go round. It is legitimate to point Out that
:14:10. > :14:13.there is a strain on the resources In this country. The point I'm
:14:14. > :14:19.making is that the extent to which Remain has dismissed those concerns
:14:20. > :14:25.as racist, they lose the majority. They're just not accepting that it
:14:26. > :14:33.is a legitimate concern. But it's not going to solve the questions you
:14:34. > :14:37.raise about immigration. We were stuck -- discussing the state of the
:14:38. > :14:45.two campaigns. My point was that the extent to which Remain relies on
:14:46. > :14:49.that dismissal... There's a couple of points there that were made about
:14:50. > :14:52.mainstream media, and having made quite a lot on Twitter and elsewhere
:14:53. > :14:56.this week. One is that the mainstream media itself demonises
:14:57. > :15:03.politicians, but we are always looking In general for the scandal,
:15:04. > :15:08.the occasional politician taking too much on expenses and so on. But
:15:09. > :15:13.that's a great thing about Britain. You have these fantastic -- this
:15:14. > :15:19.fantastic press and that's why it's a less corrupt country than the
:15:20. > :15:25.continent, so you can't have it all. You can't have a fantastic press,
:15:26. > :15:29.even with these adulation and all that is, but on the holder is less
:15:30. > :15:36.corruption and bounce an example for the continents. I think you would
:15:37. > :15:46.agree that there is a degree of subservience In France, is that
:15:47. > :15:52.right, to the press? Absolutely not. To go back to your point about the
:15:53. > :15:58.elites, many British newspapers are run by extremely rich people who are
:15:59. > :16:02.all In favour of Brexit will stop they have given endless publicity to
:16:03. > :16:10.the migration question. Murdoch has the Sun. The Times has Remain. Your
:16:11. > :16:13.point is that immigration has been ignored by elites. I dumping it has
:16:14. > :16:20.been ignored by the media elite, if there is such a thing. He would say
:16:21. > :16:24.that contributed to a climate of things. It is pressing the concerns
:16:25. > :16:29.of readers, X expressing something that the genuine story. What has
:16:30. > :16:34.been done on the left side -- left-hand side of politics, the
:16:35. > :16:38.Guardian and so forth, people have sought to dismiss those concerns as
:16:39. > :16:44.being the concerns of those who judge others on race rather than
:16:45. > :16:49.making a simple evaluation that this country has enough people ready. I
:16:50. > :16:55.think you are distorting the contribution of EU migrants In this
:16:56. > :16:59.country. I think they contribute more than they take Out of the
:17:00. > :17:04.system. That's not a robot or what the point I was making. Can we move
:17:05. > :17:11.on to this question of experts and elites which has been underlying
:17:12. > :17:16.everything. Can you explain why so many people, who are quoted experts,
:17:17. > :17:23.economists, leading economists and others, scientists, who are In the
:17:24. > :17:26.Remain camp, are ignored by many British people, when clearly, the
:17:27. > :17:32.opinion polls suggest, are going to vote for Brexit? Why do we not trust
:17:33. > :17:36.the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who says, I'm running the economy and I
:17:37. > :17:42.tell you it's going to be even more austere TiVo to get Out? It is part
:17:43. > :17:51.of this nasty anti-elites, and the experts, anti-people, that the
:17:52. > :17:56.pro-Brexit camp is taking. It comes with very sensible argument and
:17:57. > :18:04.people don't listen to it. But they will listen In case Britain leaves
:18:05. > :18:09.and disaster will strike. On the other hand, it is also about
:18:10. > :18:12.economics. It's not just about saying, you are elite and therefore
:18:13. > :18:18.we don't listen. It's about saying, you have been consistently wrong.
:18:19. > :18:24.Wrong about the pounds failing. It's the same circle of experts. People
:18:25. > :18:28.are judging them on their performance. Is a fallacy to say all
:18:29. > :18:42.economists were supportive of the euro. After euro projects,
:18:43. > :18:49.generally. That is a fallacy. I just think that they're not listening to
:18:50. > :18:52.economists is not listening to business leaders who, the vast
:18:53. > :18:56.majority of big employers In this country who have come Out In favour
:18:57. > :19:04.of Remain, saying it could impact our ability to do business. Staying
:19:05. > :19:07.In the EU is good for business. You have the leader of the SNP, the
:19:08. > :19:16.leader of the Conservative Party, the leader of every major party,
:19:17. > :19:23.with exception of Ukip, but are they all wrong? Yes. Add to this
:19:24. > :19:29.referendum is conducted, we will have a job of work to put the
:19:30. > :19:32.Conservative Party back again. I don't get a problem because, In the
:19:33. > :19:36.end, the Conservative Party knows what it's true enemy is, the Labour
:19:37. > :19:40.Party. The Labour Party knows what it's true enemy is added is also the
:19:41. > :19:46.Labour Party. They're busy tearing themselves apart. We have a nice
:19:47. > :19:49.time when the Tories can... I certainly think George Osborne
:19:50. > :19:56.didn't do himself with the Remain side or the Conservative Party any
:19:57. > :20:01.favours when he threatens a ?30 billion post Brexit budgets. He made
:20:02. > :20:08.himself look very silly. There will be a bill. This is a man who
:20:09. > :20:16.admitted Cisco targets and he's not going to do it all In one year. We
:20:17. > :20:22.go back to this speech. If you create a climate of fear, the Labour
:20:23. > :20:27.Party is not the enemy of the Tories, it is the adversary. That
:20:28. > :20:34.way will -- we live In such a nasty environment. The other side are just
:20:35. > :20:44.the opposition. In terms of this wider question, Trump, Golden Dawn,
:20:45. > :20:49.Sarah 's, Ukip, breaking up politics as usual. That will continue and
:20:50. > :20:51.that's perhaps why has guards, has had great difficulties forming a
:20:52. > :20:57.governance. Sinn Fein have done very well. Outside parties. People
:20:58. > :21:05.promised transformation rather than managerial politics. They are doing
:21:06. > :21:08.very well across Europe. Part of it is that practically every country
:21:09. > :21:14.you mention that there is In the single currency. Part of it has come
:21:15. > :21:18.through the crisis, the fiscal crisis, that has hit the euro.
:21:19. > :21:22.There's no doubt about that. I think it is still also part of this
:21:23. > :21:28.antiestablishment view of politics that we have seen before. User
:21:29. > :21:37.people, if you look to Spain, the far less, is not whether it is left
:21:38. > :21:41.or right, it could be -- it is anti-politics. That's the thing, it
:21:42. > :21:47.is antiestablishment politics. It's not just In theory, it's based on
:21:48. > :21:50.the reality In people's lives. 50% youth unemployment In Greece. They
:21:51. > :21:54.have sacrificed a generation on the altar of the EU. I should've got Out
:21:55. > :22:02.but they wouldn't have been allowed to. As a political project not being
:22:03. > :22:08.judged on its economics. I think the euro has survived. It has survived.
:22:09. > :22:13.How do you explain that, In your country, you have all this hatred
:22:14. > :22:20.and all this xenophobia? Let's go back to Britain. While unemployed is
:22:21. > :22:25.low, while the economy is doing fantastically well, why did you have
:22:26. > :22:31.all that, because politicians on the right... You were demonstrating the
:22:32. > :22:39.inability to understand that it is not racist or about hatred, is a
:22:40. > :22:48.simple evaluation... I am not on the receiving end. People are racist to
:22:49. > :22:53.you In this country? Yes, they are. Many people ask themselves, will
:22:54. > :23:03.they Leave? You're Irish, you can vote. I think the reason why you
:23:04. > :23:09.have people like Trump, and I put this support for Brexit In the same
:23:10. > :23:13.camp, it's not about, it's being presented In the context of all of
:23:14. > :23:17.our problems are due to immigration, as opposed to looking at the
:23:18. > :23:24.economic forces are behind this. You have working-class voters who have
:23:25. > :23:28.genuine complaints, but wages declined, you have a growing
:23:29. > :23:32.disparity between rich and poor. There is growing resentment as a
:23:33. > :23:35.result of that. That's an interesting point, because the
:23:36. > :23:39.economy, In the aggregate, if you look at the figures, looks very
:23:40. > :23:42.healthy. But the economy for individual citizens is not very
:23:43. > :23:46.healthy. That's part of the point I have been seeking to make. That's
:23:47. > :23:51.not the fault of migrants or immigration. Nobody is saying
:23:52. > :23:54.immigration In this country is going to stop, it is the ability to choose
:23:55. > :24:04.it and control it. The attempt to judge people based on race has been
:24:05. > :24:12.made by you. Now! The Brexit people are racist. I think the Brexit
:24:13. > :24:16.people have done a racist campaign. Some people might think that Britain
:24:17. > :24:19.leading the EU, changing that treaty arrangement with our neighbours,
:24:20. > :24:23.maybe be a decision makes on national interest rather than race.
:24:24. > :24:32.I don't think it's race. I think it's xenophobia. It is... We have a
:24:33. > :24:36.minute or two left. I think you have to look... Britain is slightly
:24:37. > :24:39.different from other countries. Southern European countries like
:24:40. > :24:43.Greece and Spain and Portugal, if you look at why they joined the
:24:44. > :24:49.European Union, the common market, the EC, whatever it was, it was to
:24:50. > :24:51.get away from these sort of dictatorship, for democracy. If you
:24:52. > :24:55.look at Eastern Europe, it was because they didn't want any more
:24:56. > :24:59.awards. If you look at France and Germany, it's because that's where
:25:00. > :25:09.the Second World War was forced Out, on their territory. What Britain
:25:10. > :25:13.joins was an economic trading alliance, which is turned into a
:25:14. > :25:17.political alliance. I understand that. That's why Euroscepticism is
:25:18. > :25:22.particularly English. Ireland joined on the same day as Britain. Ireland
:25:23. > :25:32.joined for a completely different reasons. If you want to talk about
:25:33. > :25:37.sovereignty, exchange rates, interest rates were set for the
:25:38. > :25:40.punt, the old Irish currency, by the bank of inward about time. For us,
:25:41. > :25:46.it was actually with -- regaining sovereignty. I don't think anyone In
:25:47. > :25:48.Ireland would argue that they have a of June. Are going to have to Leave
:25:49. > :25:54.it there. You can comment on the programme
:25:55. > :25:57.on Twitter - @gavinesler - We're back next week
:25:58. > :26:25.at the same time. Hello. We will all get at least one
:26:26. > :26:30.decent day Out of the weekend. Some areas will manage to stay dry right
:26:31. > :26:32.the way through. The emphasis is definitely on dry weather tree
:26:33. > :26:34.today. A bit of sunshine around.