:00:22. > :00:23.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:24. > :00:25.In today's programme: the attempted coup in Turkey,
:00:26. > :00:27.the horrors in France and the enormous political
:00:28. > :00:32.My guests today are Guney Yildez, Turkish journalist,
:00:33. > :00:36.Benedicte Paviot of France 24, Suzanne Lynch of the Irish Times and
:00:37. > :00:54.What we know. Do you think the people of Turkey were really shocked
:00:55. > :01:01.and surprised when they thought the Army was out? This is a big shock. I
:01:02. > :01:06.was speaking to a senior party member yesterday in the heat of the
:01:07. > :01:10.incident, the governing party, and he was telling me they were
:01:11. > :01:15.expecting it. The new that some people in the mill table plotting
:01:16. > :01:26.for a coup. They are so well organised. They weren't sure how it
:01:27. > :01:36.would turn out. The president of the blame on a movement, Turkish
:01:37. > :01:40.Islamist -based. A lot of followers in Turkish security. I book two is
:01:41. > :01:44.books person as well and they the distant themselves but when asked if
:01:45. > :01:52.they would condemn this coup, didn't want to do that. This was an
:01:53. > :01:59.unsuccessful coup organised by mid two senior level soldiers, a naval
:02:00. > :02:06.force and the first Army division, it is not a small group of soldiers
:02:07. > :02:12.acting on this. It was very well planned an e-mail to a level because
:02:13. > :02:24.the coup was conditionally took strongholds of Turkish intelligent
:02:25. > :02:29.-- intelligence. Also, special police forces which have grown under
:02:30. > :02:34.the present and become a rival to the Army. On an administrative
:02:35. > :02:38.level, it didn't sound like it was well organised. They didn't have any
:02:39. > :02:46.access to the media. Mainstream media. The statement they read out
:02:47. > :02:51.on state TV wasn't clear. What the motivation was over the state was
:02:52. > :02:57.unclear. It allowed Government to get ahead of them very quickly in a
:02:58. > :03:04.few hours. Wright that has happened in the past in the last 50 years or
:03:05. > :03:08.so. They welcomed this at the time because they thought it would bring
:03:09. > :03:10.stability or the military could bring stability. This is a
:03:11. > :03:19.completely different poetical situation. Turkey had for different
:03:20. > :03:22.coups in the past. The last one in 1997 was a soft coup but in all
:03:23. > :03:28.these cases it was the military which didn't have any arrivals like
:03:29. > :03:35.intelligent or police force, it was acting against weak civilian
:03:36. > :03:39.Government, any turbulent situation and people welcomed it but this time
:03:40. > :03:46.we have a strong Government has control over a significant part of
:03:47. > :03:53.the security establishment, it is not just one coup, a three coup
:03:54. > :03:58.against the army, police and strong civilian Government. This is a
:03:59. > :04:03.country that has aspirations to join Europe, it has changed, people can
:04:04. > :04:09.be executed in Turkey in order to do so and it is right on the border.
:04:10. > :04:12.This comes as a shock? The whole geopolitical context of this is
:04:13. > :04:17.hugely significant. This is very much the case. It is a member of
:04:18. > :04:22.Nato and this has huge ramifications in terms of what happens now between
:04:23. > :04:28.Turkey and Greece. It is a US ally bobbled that relationship has come
:04:29. > :04:32.under pressure. Most importantly for Europe, the timing is interesting.
:04:33. > :04:38.We have seen an unprecedented engagement with the EU by Turkey to
:04:39. > :04:42.assess the migrant crisis. Many people accused the EU for a cynical
:04:43. > :04:47.move offering Turkey promises of further these and access to the EU
:04:48. > :04:52.in exchange for helping with the migrant crisis led by Anglo-American
:04:53. > :04:54.who was driving this. Anglo-American's gamble has paid off
:04:55. > :05:00.as the number of migrants coming through from Turkey to Greece has
:05:01. > :05:03.fallen back now ironically what may happen is that as the reaction plays
:05:04. > :05:07.later in the president in the next few weeks, we may see a hardening of
:05:08. > :05:14.response from Turkey, a clamp-down on dissent, political dialogue and
:05:15. > :05:20.that will give the EU a pretext for not giving these are true -- Visa
:05:21. > :05:25.free travel to Europe. That is part of the point. Turkey is a democracy
:05:26. > :05:31.in that has elections but minority views are not taken into account. In
:05:32. > :05:34.the way that the EU would like. Thank goodness for the European
:05:35. > :05:39.Union in the sense that at least there is some leveraged their given
:05:40. > :05:43.that Turkey wants to join. I think that's an important part of the
:05:44. > :05:50.dynamic even though we are talking decades away apparently. That will
:05:51. > :05:57.be an important lever and the UK out of the European Union will have no
:05:58. > :06:00.power. It is a really interesting example of what happens when or if
:06:01. > :06:05.you leave the European Union because they will be key players in trying
:06:06. > :06:10.to create a more stable Turkey. From what you were saying earlier, even
:06:11. > :06:15.though the coup seems to have been put down quite quickly by the
:06:16. > :06:20.Government, it is bound to generate even greater instability in Turkey
:06:21. > :06:25.and -- in an already unstable situation. We are coming on the fans
:06:26. > :06:31.any second but bomb attacks at airports and bomb attacks against
:06:32. > :06:35.the economic disruption caused by terrorism and know this. We don't
:06:36. > :06:40.want an unstable Turkey for any part of the world, for the Middle East or
:06:41. > :06:45.Asia or for Europe. We don't and that is why it is very interesting
:06:46. > :06:48.to see how the Turkish president will do. Will he become more
:06:49. > :06:55.authoritarian were the clamp-down on dissent? I think the temptation or
:06:56. > :06:59.the decision will probably be one that will be very quickly made. What
:07:00. > :07:04.is slightly strange to me is the fact that there were these rumours
:07:05. > :07:07.apparently not known by us but he might be Turkish president, was
:07:08. > :07:12.fearing this and has worst fears have come true. It is interesting
:07:13. > :07:17.that he had to be an face time. If the Internet, we see, if you are on
:07:18. > :07:22.the stem, that is the kiss of death. You cannot get to a studio. The
:07:23. > :07:28.first thing you do in broadcasting, you go to those two days and blow up
:07:29. > :07:34.the transmitters. That's how you organise a coup. That is how you
:07:35. > :07:38.take over. There were two planes shot down, helicopters. As we go on
:07:39. > :07:41.error, there are eight people claiming asylum in Greece and how
:07:42. > :07:46.Greece handled that will be very important as well. What you were
:07:47. > :07:52.boasting about the EU is key and the fact that the UK is going to be
:07:53. > :07:54.negotiating its divorce from that, lessons its voice in that possible
:07:55. > :07:55.solution. In France, after the Euro 2016
:07:56. > :07:57.football passed off successful and without any serious incidents,
:07:58. > :07:59.there was considerable relief and the prospect of some
:08:00. > :08:02.kind of relaxation of That lasted until Bastille Day
:08:03. > :08:05.and the use of a lorry Where is France and Europe
:08:06. > :08:09.and the rest of the world in dealing with those from Nice
:08:10. > :08:12.to Orlando who have murder on their minds and claim some kind
:08:13. > :08:24.of political motive? The reason I introduced Orlando
:08:25. > :08:28.there is from what we know of the perpetrator, he was a bit of a loser
:08:29. > :08:31.in society, on the margins and is now being claimed by Islamic State
:08:32. > :08:36.is that he was some kind of hero to do the kind of vastly thing that he
:08:37. > :08:41.did. This is what intelligence services around the world and not
:08:42. > :08:45.just in France are in the UK, this is a growing phenomenon and one that
:08:46. > :08:53.is impossible in an open democracy to prevent no matter how much money,
:08:54. > :08:58.solutions are investigations report that she do and there is a report
:08:59. > :09:02.finds that you might not very long ago that was recommending that
:09:03. > :09:06.France actually do what the US did when they realise the FBI wasn't
:09:07. > :09:11.talking enough to the CIA after the 911, that there had been warning
:09:12. > :09:15.signals and that didn't take up on them so that France needs to
:09:16. > :09:18.actually be collaborating and pooling its information, there is
:09:19. > :09:23.too much competition between the various parts of the intelligence
:09:24. > :09:26.services. Having said that, France, Britain, America, it Israelis and
:09:27. > :09:30.amongst the best in the intelligence of it is but you cannot do it in an
:09:31. > :09:36.open democracy or zero would you want to put the reasons of civilian
:09:37. > :09:39.liberties, the bounce me to strike, this was a soft target. The sea
:09:40. > :09:45.front of Meath was turned into a crime scene, a two kilometre crime
:09:46. > :09:51.scene, 84 dead, 200 injured among them are children. It is horrific
:09:52. > :09:55.and our society, unlike the 13th of November attacks, they needed
:09:56. > :09:59.rejects texts. That needed real planning outside and inside France
:10:00. > :10:03.whether it was from Belgium or forever it was from, what is not
:10:04. > :10:08.needed from a man who rented a lorry two or three days before, apparently
:10:09. > :10:14.a womaniser, was not a practising Muslim, he is going to be reclaimed
:10:15. > :10:21.by, as we have just witnessed, as IIS or Islamic State. It is inspired
:10:22. > :10:25.by them. It is all too familiar. The Orlando attack, Iman on the margins
:10:26. > :10:28.of society, the Brussels perpetrators as well. We have seen a
:10:29. > :10:33.lot of this and that makes it even more difficult for the intelligence
:10:34. > :10:37.services. What is worrying about this development is that as I says
:10:38. > :10:41.is losing ground in the Middle East, it may increase its targets and the
:10:42. > :10:44.west. It is even more worrying that this person seems to have had no
:10:45. > :10:48.direct links with organised terrorism because it showing the
:10:49. > :10:52.influence that Islamic State particularly over social media has
:10:53. > :10:57.the debate of the disenfranchised who maybe don't have formal with
:10:58. > :11:00.Islamic State but are using that as a justification or an ideology that
:11:01. > :11:04.they can cling to and justify their own acts. What is different about
:11:05. > :11:08.this attack from the November attacks in Paris and the attacks in
:11:09. > :11:15.Brussels is that it's not part of this European wide network. A
:11:16. > :11:19.Belgian French, very sophisticated terrorist network was behind this to
:11:20. > :11:24.attacks and then presidents were asked about how can terrorists and
:11:25. > :11:31.arms move freely between countries across do opinion and best debate
:11:32. > :11:34.will no doubt come up again. In terms of this specific incident, it
:11:35. > :11:37.seems it's more organised with that incident and that will give EU
:11:38. > :11:42.policymakers a breeding space in terms of this event. The thought
:11:43. > :11:49.that everybody in Britain has about this is that it could happen in here
:11:50. > :11:58.or Germany. Of course. It has happened here on a smaller scale. I
:11:59. > :12:02.am always asking senior officials at the Home Office, how come it is
:12:03. > :12:09.always France and not hear? There is one issue which is, touch wood, of
:12:10. > :12:15.some benefit to the UK which is that it is much harder to get the weapons
:12:16. > :12:21.over here. They are freely travelling around the rest of the
:12:22. > :12:25.EU. That is something has to be addressed but what cannot be
:12:26. > :12:29.addressed, as you were saying, is some individual loan are doing this
:12:30. > :12:37.and then I S claiming in effect credit. On that issue about Britain,
:12:38. > :12:41.it is interesting in the debate about Britain having decided to
:12:42. > :12:45.leave the EU, to reasoning is on record back in April saying that she
:12:46. > :12:49.believes British security will be better served by staying in the EU,
:12:50. > :12:53.she listed a number of their things, the passenger name records, that you
:12:54. > :13:01.are appalled. Ironically, Britain was already out of the bits it
:13:02. > :13:04.didn't want, it had a very good arrangement. It'll be interesting to
:13:05. > :13:08.see how the new PM responds to this when there will be inevitable claims
:13:09. > :13:13.that this may show you lack security in Europe when the very opposite is
:13:14. > :13:17.the case. If that hadn't been for true, I would be asking you about
:13:18. > :13:23.Turkey's experience of terrorism because that is also destabilising
:13:24. > :13:29.factor in Turkish society. In Ankara and Istanbul and other places, isn't
:13:30. > :13:39.it? What unifies France and Turkey is that both countries are very
:13:40. > :13:45.vocal against the Assad regime. France was never a supporter of the
:13:46. > :13:50.Assad regime. The word very vocal against the Assad regime and its
:13:51. > :13:54.ironic that the target is more about Isis than any other country. The
:13:55. > :13:59.only reason I can think of is that France has more in the Muslim
:14:00. > :14:04.population than any other European country and because of the colonial
:14:05. > :14:11.legacy both in Syria and also in northern Africa, you have a easily
:14:12. > :14:20.radicalised or could be radicalised Muslim population. Isis thinks they
:14:21. > :14:24.can create an anti-Islamic Daschle -- backlash in friends as I take
:14:25. > :14:29.easier than other countries. That is a worry that if I write in France,
:14:30. > :14:32.politics aside, there are some rumblings that people fear that far
:14:33. > :14:37.right groups can take something of the retaliation against people they
:14:38. > :14:41.don't like. There might be individual acts but the point is the
:14:42. > :14:45.elephant in the room is the French presidential elections next May and
:14:46. > :14:49.certainly we already know we have known for over 18 months if the
:14:50. > :14:55.polls are correct, they are dangerously accurate, Marriott Le
:14:56. > :14:58.Pen will get through the second round of the presidential election
:14:59. > :15:02.unlike her father. We know it is coming down the track. What we
:15:03. > :15:07.already witnessing unlike the aftermath and the fallout from the
:15:08. > :15:13.13th November Paris attacks, is the fact that there is not a political
:15:14. > :15:19.unity, it was supposed to end of the 26th of July, the afternoon on the
:15:20. > :15:23.14th of July Bastille Day, the French president and his traditional
:15:24. > :15:27.address or in the nation, he said it is going to stop, we cannot continue
:15:28. > :15:31.all the time, it's been renewed three times and the reason it was
:15:32. > :15:36.renewed up until now is the one month Euro 2016 which passed off
:15:37. > :15:40.successfully. No terror attacks. Then, if you hours later, this
:15:41. > :15:44.attack. The problem is now that there is a law helping to get the
:15:45. > :15:50.Government tools to be able to carry out raids quite easily to clamp
:15:51. > :15:57.down, to dismantle jihadists groups. The problem is, the civil liberties
:15:58. > :16:03.and how they blood citation also I think very much has begun to happen
:16:04. > :16:06.from the opposition are starting to really make some murmurings about
:16:07. > :16:09.what needs to be done and criticising the French Government
:16:10. > :16:13.and the French authorities. This is quite different to the aftermath of
:16:14. > :16:17.the first -- 13 of November and the presidential election coming up,
:16:18. > :16:21.Europe will be at the heart of it and Marion Le Pen has said that. She
:16:22. > :16:27.will be appealing and she will have a lot of residents with a growing
:16:28. > :16:31.number of people who feel insecure. France is at war with the so-called
:16:32. > :16:34.Islamic State, one with terrorism and it is here to stay. It is part
:16:35. > :16:36.of everyday life by Andy reality. Britain has a new prime minister
:16:37. > :16:38.and a reshaped government Plus, we also have Boris Johnson
:16:39. > :16:42.as our new Foreign Secretary, What do we make of the shape
:16:43. > :16:55.of the new British government What do you make the way to reason
:16:56. > :17:01.me, we should remind people, has got a majority of 12 which is very slim.
:17:02. > :17:04.That is the context of everything. Brexit will dominate the life of
:17:05. > :17:10.this new Government and a new Government. We didn't have a general
:17:11. > :17:14.election last week. It was a brutal cabinet reshuffle which she had
:17:15. > :17:19.clearly planned for some time because she carried out with great
:17:20. > :17:23.ruthlessness at speed. You are right, she will have to navigate the
:17:24. > :17:31.nightmarish past towards a Brexit and it's all complexity with a tiny
:17:32. > :17:37.majority being watched on an hourly basis by some of the Eurosceptic MPs
:17:38. > :17:40.who are currently euphoric about the way she has reshuffled her Cabinet
:17:41. > :17:50.and made clear that Brexit is Brexit. Any sign of distancing from
:17:51. > :17:54.that will cause mayhem. It is a really difficult position. She will
:17:55. > :17:59.have a honeymoon to die for over the summer. She hasn't got any effective
:18:00. > :18:04.political opposition at the moment. Bieber having another leadership
:18:05. > :18:08.contest. The wider context of deciding what form Brexit takes,
:18:09. > :18:13.getting it through the European Union, when the trigger article 51
:18:14. > :18:17.whole process begins, will be fraught with difficulty. And the way
:18:18. > :18:24.she structured her Government, there are in effect, at least four Cabinet
:18:25. > :18:28.ministers heavily involved in this, David Davis in charge of Brexit,
:18:29. > :18:32.Liam Fox in charge of negotiating trade, the Treasury inevitably in
:18:33. > :18:36.the form of the Chancellor and Theresa May herself who will take
:18:37. > :18:41.the lead. Managing those individuals all with different views so far, I
:18:42. > :18:48.haven't mentioned Boris Johnson... Andrea led some doing food. All with
:18:49. > :18:57.slightly different views as to what Brexit should take, it's going to
:18:58. > :19:00.make John major in the mid-90s that the guilty party. It was quite
:19:01. > :19:08.interesting this week watching the unfolding drama in Westminster.
:19:09. > :19:11.While the mood seemed to be quite a bit of fun and final Prime
:19:12. > :19:18.Minister's Questions, the mood in Russell 's was one of sober realism
:19:19. > :19:23.that this is no laughing matter. -- Brussels. The appointment of Theresa
:19:24. > :19:28.May has made Brexit a reality. I think a lot of people were quite
:19:29. > :19:32.amused by the whole tone of things and the sense that perhaps these
:19:33. > :19:35.appointments were motivated by domestic, political and partied
:19:36. > :19:40.little concerns rather than what is best for the country. It is apt to
:19:41. > :19:45.be the most challenging act of diplomacy over the last 50 years. By
:19:46. > :19:50.appointing up Boris Johnson, a divisive figure, that is fine,
:19:51. > :19:56.people do respect to some extent but what is the wisdom of putting
:19:57. > :20:01.somebody in who has already insulted a number of world leaders when you
:20:02. > :20:07.are trying to get the best deal from Britain for the EU? That is an
:20:08. > :20:15.interesting calculation. What do you make of it? He was booed at the
:20:16. > :20:19.French Embassy this week. At Bastille Day, yes, I witnessed it.
:20:20. > :20:26.It was Brits who were doing it, not the French. I would say it was
:20:27. > :20:30.roughly 15% of the guests there. Do you think it is a problem,
:20:31. > :20:34.particularly in the short-term? Perhaps any few months' time, you
:20:35. > :20:36.can see the strategy who is an intelligent man and will be very
:20:37. > :20:41.sober in the office and people will look at his past comments in a
:20:42. > :20:47.different light? From the domestic political side, for a moment, it is
:20:48. > :20:51.a huge opportunity for Boris, borrowers who was going to be a
:20:52. > :20:55.candidate for the top job of Tory leader, Boris who was going to be
:20:56. > :21:00.Prime Minister and that fell completely by the wayside and this
:21:01. > :21:02.seems to be a completely natural phenomenon in which is politics,
:21:03. > :21:11.when you are the favourite you don't get it. The fact is, he is going to
:21:12. > :21:18.be good sized everywhere he goes, here and abroad. He will have to
:21:19. > :21:21.tackle this all the time. He is very intelligent but the Beazer is going
:21:22. > :21:29.to want to really make sure she tries to control his message. He
:21:30. > :21:36.wrote a juvenile pawn which won a prize which said things about the
:21:37. > :21:41.Turkish president. -- poem. Does that matter? The Turkish President's
:21:42. > :21:44.office was asked about this and what they need of the appointment of
:21:45. > :21:49.Boris Johnson and the reply today saying the relationship with the UK
:21:50. > :21:52.goes beyond personalities and he used his first ever opportunity to
:21:53. > :21:58.mend relations with Turkey very quickly in the coup attempt. He came
:21:59. > :22:06.out talking and step. As journalists, we should be looking
:22:07. > :22:07.for it what he needs. It is one thing, civil servants and
:22:08. > :22:12.presidential officer say about their foreign policy, we might imagine a
:22:13. > :22:17.scene for the Turkish president was openly challenging... Years quite a
:22:18. > :22:22.strong character as well. We are almost running out of time. One way
:22:23. > :22:26.of looking at what Theresa May is doing, she may come to the
:22:27. > :22:31.conclusion that we are a very weak and divided opposition, she needs an
:22:32. > :22:36.electoral mandate and she should go to the country and that would give
:22:37. > :22:40.her more MPs and ease her problems. She might do. There will be a lot of
:22:41. > :22:45.speculation over the summer. She has gone on the record to say that she
:22:46. > :22:48.doesn't think an early election is necessary. That will not kill off
:22:49. > :22:53.the speculation as Gordon Brown discovered in 2007. When you are on
:22:54. > :22:59.a honeymoon. With a very small majority. Over the summer, she has
:23:00. > :23:02.just one chance in early November, after that, it becomes impossible in
:23:03. > :23:08.the winter and the rest of it. She will have to make a decision. She
:23:09. > :23:12.might just emphatically rule it out and kill all speculation that there
:23:13. > :23:15.must be a bit of her, she is quite cautious in spite of that ruthless
:23:16. > :23:19.reef travel, there must be a bit of attempted to say that with all that
:23:20. > :23:25.legislation she has to get through, to have a majority of 180 beats a
:23:26. > :23:29.majority of 12. It is going to lurk in the background. Not likely that
:23:30. > :23:33.possible. She's cautious until she isn't and then she is quite bold.
:23:34. > :23:38.She has been very bold in the past three days. I have met some of the
:23:39. > :23:43.victims of the last 40 errors and some of those who survived and the
:23:44. > :23:47.all walking around any complete shock days. There are questions
:23:48. > :23:51.about legitimacy that are already being asked despite the weakness and
:23:52. > :23:57.the crisis amongst the Labour opposition because we have this PM
:23:58. > :23:59.with a completely, no general election and a completely different
:24:00. > :24:01.top Government. There are questions being asked.
:24:02. > :24:03.That's it for Dateline London for this week.
:24:04. > :24:06.You can comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler and also
:24:07. > :24:17.We're back next week at the same time.