:00:22. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:27.The meeting between Angela Merkel and Theresa May
:00:28. > :00:30.And Donald Trump stakes his claim to the presidency
:00:31. > :00:37.My guests today are Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt, Maria Margaronis
:00:38. > :00:39.of The Nation, Janet Daley of the Sunday Telegraph
:00:40. > :00:44.and John Fisher Burns of the New York Times.
:00:45. > :00:46.We begin with the terror attack in Munich.
:00:47. > :00:48.Coming after attacks in Paris, Brussels, Orlando, Istanbul,
:00:49. > :00:50.Nice and other places, this is clearly
:00:51. > :01:03.But I used the word terror attack because it strikes terror, except
:01:04. > :01:09.the police say there is no political motive they can find. I agree that
:01:10. > :01:15.in terminology terror is correct, it is a horrific incident to happen for
:01:16. > :01:20.a lone gunman to shoot and kill and the repercussions, we know the facts
:01:21. > :01:27.are beginning to emerge, or that people feel unsafe in modern
:01:28. > :01:31.society. This vulnerability has been brought home to us again and
:01:32. > :01:36.whatever the motive is an ramification, there is a sense that
:01:37. > :01:40.we are not masters of our own security, we are threatened beyond
:01:41. > :01:45.belief and nobody knows what may happen next. I hope the German
:01:46. > :01:52.people will not yield to this sense of helplessness and they retrieve
:01:53. > :01:58.some normality instead of becoming pessimistic about the future. That
:01:59. > :02:04.is hard to do, the powers that be are constantly under attack for not
:02:05. > :02:07.being in charge of governing society, so the individual has to
:02:08. > :02:13.recover enough sense of himself and his pride to carry on normal
:02:14. > :02:20.business. It is a huge challenge and I don't know how we will come out of
:02:21. > :02:25.it. One definition of terrorism is a violent act of theatre to scare lots
:02:26. > :02:29.of people by a single outcome so although police in Munich seem to
:02:30. > :02:34.have ruled out any political relationship with Islamic State, in
:02:35. > :02:41.that sense it seems like it does terrorise. It is terrifying. There
:02:42. > :02:46.are so many things happening and not just the ones you listed but in
:02:47. > :02:50.Baghdad, Lebanon, all over the world which are terrifying. It is
:02:51. > :02:55.important to make distinctions between politically motivated
:02:56. > :02:59.attacks and what are known as lone Wills and also to see there is
:03:00. > :03:05.something going on in our political culture which means someone deeply
:03:06. > :03:11.unhappy and unstable is more likely to pick up this post factual
:03:12. > :03:17.political discourse where blame is strewn around randomly, Trump can
:03:18. > :03:22.blame Hillary Clinton for every war that has happened in the Middle East
:03:23. > :03:25.in the last 15 years and connect those things, so make distinctions
:03:26. > :03:32.but also see what is happening in culture. I think that is all true
:03:33. > :03:39.but there is a danger of attributing a systematic nature to axe which are
:03:40. > :03:44.in fact around, they are to do with individual mental instability,
:03:45. > :03:50.individual misanthropic, there has always been a fixed number of
:03:51. > :03:53.especially young men who are deranged in society, the
:03:54. > :03:59.19th-century had an anarchist movement which was as terrifying on
:04:00. > :04:07.its own skill, we had Baader-Meinhof in Germany, the danger is thinking
:04:08. > :04:11.that somehow there is an ideological explanation which can be cracked,
:04:12. > :04:17.which the security services can solve. The level of violence in this
:04:18. > :04:22.society at the moment, the individual incidents which make the
:04:23. > :04:29.news are terrifying in the technical sense of the word but low-level
:04:30. > :04:36.violence in our society in advanced countries is remarkably low in terms
:04:37. > :04:39.of previous generations. There was a time in the 19th-century when no
:04:40. > :04:46.woman would have walked the streets of London alone, when no man would
:04:47. > :04:54.have walked through Hyde Park alone, every day mugging, personal
:04:55. > :05:03.violence, disorder, the lack of police protection was just a fact of
:05:04. > :05:08.life. That makes it more shocking. It does but it doesn't mean
:05:09. > :05:12.something has happened to culture, the sort of people who worried doing
:05:13. > :05:17.this I think Ari fixed quotient, there is an element of easily
:05:18. > :05:22.deranged young men and I think it has a lot to do with popular
:05:23. > :05:29.culture, apparently this town man was addict into computer games, as
:05:30. > :05:33.was one of the Brussels perpetrators, and remarkably even
:05:34. > :05:39.those who were attributing their actions to Islam often turn out to
:05:40. > :05:45.be very recent converts to Islam, often they weren't even observant
:05:46. > :05:49.Muslims. The guy who committed the attack in Nice was eating pork and
:05:50. > :05:55.drinking alcohol 24 hours before the attack. You don't want to attribute
:05:56. > :06:03.a false rationality to something that is a sickly insane. We also had
:06:04. > :06:08.talked about Islamic State and Al-Qaeda, the Columbine massacre,
:06:09. > :06:13.the kind of phenomenon judgment is talking about is all too common
:06:14. > :06:17.stock I agreed that it doesn't excuse us from the response of
:06:18. > :06:26.unlucky of finding as many as there may be solutions and correct those,
:06:27. > :06:30.an obvious one, for example, we can thank the Lord we have the strongest
:06:31. > :06:35.gun laws in this country. It is to make sure everything possible is
:06:36. > :06:42.done to stop the distribution of deadly weapons. I dare say something
:06:43. > :06:50.can be done about the proliferation of violence in computer games and on
:06:51. > :06:55.TV. To me, I don't want to be the victor Meldrew of the peace but it's
:06:56. > :06:58.shocking to see the amount of violence that is on those computer
:06:59. > :07:06.games, as glimpsed over the shoulder of children in chopping vases and on
:07:07. > :07:11.TV. While these attacks may be random and many of the so-called
:07:12. > :07:15.Islamists are people who were reaching for extremist Islam as an
:07:16. > :07:21.excuse for what has its origins in a sort of arrangement, there are still
:07:22. > :07:26.things we should do. I don't think the violence there was in London in
:07:27. > :07:30.the late 19th century just flew over of its own accord. It would have had
:07:31. > :07:38.a lot to do with the construction of a Robert Alyce force. I think many
:07:39. > :07:42.people in Germany will wonder how an 18-year-old kid gets hold of a clock
:07:43. > :07:49.and more than 300 rounds of ammunition. We have a culture in
:07:50. > :07:55.Germany that will not allow such possession of guns but there is also
:07:56. > :08:02.a black market and secret ways, seven neighbouring countries, and
:08:03. > :08:09.people of an equally deranged mind, there will be ways by which you can
:08:10. > :08:12.provide yourself with weapons, and no amount of strict laws will
:08:13. > :08:20.completely stamp out the availability of these. Borders are
:08:21. > :08:25.something else we could do something about. Let's move on to that topic
:08:26. > :08:26.in a slightly more cheerful manner. The most powerful leader
:08:27. > :08:28.in the most powerful country in the European Union met
:08:29. > :08:31.and listened to the newcomer, Britain's Prime Minister
:08:32. > :08:32.Theresa May, this week. But when Angela Merkel expresses
:08:33. > :08:35.a degree of sympathy for the woman trying to negotiate a British exit
:08:36. > :08:46.from the European Union, It was a very pleasant meeting and
:08:47. > :08:54.good to see two women leaders together, but... I think kind words
:08:55. > :08:57.to mean something because Germany is anxious to reach some sort of
:08:58. > :09:03.accommodation. I think the question of borders is absolutely central to
:09:04. > :09:08.this. Is the Schengen agreement going to survive the security
:09:09. > :09:14.questions and Britain's access to the single market? Something has
:09:15. > :09:20.gone seriously wrong with the European projects both in terms of
:09:21. > :09:23.the euro and what it is doing to Mediterranean countries and poor
:09:24. > :09:29.countries, and the border arrangements which are causing
:09:30. > :09:35.resentment in eastern Europe, this is the moment for serious reform and
:09:36. > :09:42.I think possibly Angela Merkel recognises that in a way that
:09:43. > :09:48.President Hollande possibly doesn't and that is going to be the real
:09:49. > :09:51.crisis. Brexit will be a sideshow because it will trigger the real
:09:52. > :09:56.disagreement between Germany and France. The reason I phrased that
:09:57. > :10:01.like I did is because I remember Angela Merkel being very nice to
:10:02. > :10:07.Alexis Tsipras and maybe you could remind us how that turned out.
:10:08. > :10:13.Increased they could have a referendum and then ignore it, it's
:10:14. > :10:15.another story, but Greece is now absolutely powerless and she knew in
:10:16. > :10:22.the end she could be nice and then... But do you take Janet's
:10:23. > :10:28.point, because a lot of people in the EU, Mrs Merkel knows there are
:10:29. > :10:34.problems in the EU that she would like to a partner to solve and maybe
:10:35. > :10:39.that is not possible. She would like Britain as a partner but other
:10:40. > :10:43.European leaders are happy to see the back of Britain. Other people
:10:44. > :10:47.are saying they keep trying to change things and without them they
:10:48. > :10:53.can get on with it. Britain isn't in Schengen said the question of
:10:54. > :10:59.European borders inside continental Europe doesn't involve Britain
:11:00. > :11:04.directly. But Janet's words are prepared in the light of the German
:11:05. > :11:09.election next year. She has to be careful how to address the unease in
:11:10. > :11:14.her own country about Mike Gration, asylum seekers, the days of
:11:15. > :11:21.uncontrolled migration are coming to an end. But was there really
:11:22. > :11:27.uncontrolled migration in Germany? There was to what extent but we are
:11:28. > :11:32.having to deal with it now. We remember in Munich train station,
:11:33. > :11:36.the huge numbers. That was when Angela Merkel said we would take as
:11:37. > :11:43.many Syrian refugees as camp and had to backtrack. The uncontrolled bit
:11:44. > :11:47.comes in that once you set foot on the grant of an EU country you are
:11:48. > :11:54.effectively invisible and that is the problem. You can travel anywhere
:11:55. > :11:59.in Schengen. One of the powerful reasons why the reason may seems to
:12:00. > :12:03.have his side she would trigger Article 50 until next year, then
:12:04. > :12:09.there were two years beyond that which carries her until the 2020
:12:10. > :12:17.election. She realises that the number unfolding NBC U -- the
:12:18. > :12:21.dynamic in the EU, widespread discontent with free movement and
:12:22. > :12:30.the terms of negotiation of our exit if it happens maybe a lot different
:12:31. > :12:36.to years from now. If it happens, because the road those who voted for
:12:37. > :12:41.it who may get disappointed, those who voted remain will be
:12:42. > :12:48.disappointed it will happen at all, questions about the economy, so
:12:49. > :12:53.Brexit, when would you fancy it happening? They agree with John, I
:12:54. > :13:00.think it will be kicked down the road. People who voted for Brexit,
:13:01. > :13:05.it has to be seen to be beginning to happen, but if you have Theresa May
:13:06. > :13:10.saying we have to sort out the inter-UK issues with Scotland first,
:13:11. > :13:17.that may take time. It's taken 300 years! That was a bluff. There is no
:13:18. > :13:22.way the Scottish Nationalists would call another referendum because they
:13:23. > :13:27.would lose it, well being the price it is they cannot sustain an
:13:28. > :13:31.independent Scotland, Europe would not welcome an independent Scotland
:13:32. > :13:37.because they would be terrified of the nationalist minority, they would
:13:38. > :13:43.not let them join the EU. That is a red herring. But can you see this
:13:44. > :13:49.will be to down the road for a long time because it is legally complex,
:13:50. > :13:54.business people talk about consulting lawyers. But that goes to
:13:55. > :14:01.waste because Europe will be kicking down the road the crisis this has
:14:02. > :14:06.brought about, so what are we withdrawing from? If there's going
:14:07. > :14:11.to be a different Europe it is Germany will have to deal with its
:14:12. > :14:14.problems, France will have to deal with the rise of Marine Le Pen, we
:14:15. > :14:22.are talking about a different Europe. A more Europe? That is quite
:14:23. > :14:27.I would steer away from the term kicking it down the road, we are in
:14:28. > :14:31.the hostage to developments, France and Germany have elections next year
:14:32. > :14:38.and they will hinge on negotiations, you may not know from one day to the
:14:39. > :14:44.next how opinions of these countries are brought to bear. Europeans may
:14:45. > :14:54.understand Britain has a point. They already think it does. You have to
:14:55. > :15:01.cope with history in its raw power. There are also signs of a number of
:15:02. > :15:08.European countries, quite if you eastern European countries, who do
:15:09. > :15:12.not wish to see a golf develop. Between the UK and the rest of
:15:13. > :15:20.Europe, and that will be a major factor. On the migration issue, I
:15:21. > :15:24.think that's different Europe. People are worried about migration
:15:25. > :15:28.from Europe and people injured are worried about migration from
:15:29. > :15:29.outside. Especially about what has happened in Turkey.
:15:30. > :15:32.Those of us who have listened to more than one Donald Trump speech
:15:33. > :15:35.or read his Twitter comments may assume the secret of making
:15:36. > :15:37.America Great Again is to be tough and smart.
:15:38. > :15:39.But what does the Republican candidate for the presidency really
:15:40. > :15:42.offer the United States beyond the kind of oratory
:15:43. > :15:43.which clearly appeals to millions of Americans
:15:44. > :15:49.And when exactly did America cease being great?
:15:50. > :15:58.I was trying to figure that out. What do you make of his appeal? I
:15:59. > :16:05.think there's a danger of being smug enough outrage and dismay, there is
:16:06. > :16:13.a vulgar raises intron of the political process, a Britishness,
:16:14. > :16:18.all this we can agree on, but as a businessman he has found a big niche
:16:19. > :16:26.in the market, the alienation niche years eating too which the two major
:16:27. > :16:31.parties in the US have not addressed seriously for 30 years and maybe
:16:32. > :16:38.that is where we should give our attention. What can be done to
:16:39. > :16:45.relieve that sense of alienation which is very great? In that sense
:16:46. > :16:51.Hillary Clinton is the greatest four because she has been associated as
:16:52. > :16:59.First Lady, Senator, Secretary of State, she is Mrs Washington? I'm
:17:00. > :17:05.going to be smug, there are not two sides to this argument, this man is
:17:06. > :17:10.seriously dangerous, and the most dangerous thing is that he is
:17:11. > :17:16.discrediting the Democratic process. He is not just discrediting what we
:17:17. > :17:20.call big governing class, but the idea that democracy can be a
:17:21. > :17:27.solution to problems and what he is selling something people jump on
:17:28. > :17:34.tables to advocate. It's a kind of, populism is to mount a word, it is
:17:35. > :17:39.demagoguery, there is a photo of him giving his acceptance speech at the
:17:40. > :17:46.convention with a huge screen of his face and it's like a scene from
:17:47. > :17:54.Citizen Kane. This is the supposed voice of the common man, this
:17:55. > :17:59.billionaire who is a dog, -- a thug, this is a kind of bank tourism in
:18:00. > :18:05.politics which is so frightening that I don't think one can pretend
:18:06. > :18:09.to be impartial. But you were right in your description of the
:18:10. > :18:16.phenomenon but it is also to do with the powers that be having neglected
:18:17. > :18:23.this sense of alienation and have themselves to blame for the
:18:24. > :18:30.phenomenon. But the thing about what American calls the middle-class...
:18:31. > :18:36.Working people. Blue-collar people, white, working class, those people
:18:37. > :18:43.were screwed over a long time ago. The rust has existed for a long
:18:44. > :18:49.time, Detroit's was damaged a long time ago but all it takes is for
:18:50. > :18:54.someone to jump on a chair, the kind of Rosing thinks he is doing, this
:18:55. > :19:01.isn't a new set of conditions he is talking about, so why now? I was
:19:02. > :19:06.going to suggest maybe one reason is that people think globalisation is a
:19:07. > :19:14.project which has failed. It doesn't help me. It's not a project, it's a
:19:15. > :19:21.fact to do with technology. But it's disruptive technology and many
:19:22. > :19:25.people are saying, John F. Kennedy could say there was a rising tide, a
:19:26. > :19:31.lot of people have boats in the water. This is not separate from
:19:32. > :19:37.what is happening in Europe, Trump is an American version. If you were
:19:38. > :19:45.a steelworker in Ohio, it doesn't seem irreversible. The endless
:19:46. > :19:52.expatriation of jobs, manufacturing jobs, you can understand why these
:19:53. > :19:57.people will find some resonance for their feelings, ugly as it is, in
:19:58. > :20:02.the politics of Mr Trump. He is now trying to reach out to Bernie
:20:03. > :20:10.Sanders supporters. It is the incoherence, this is not politics.
:20:11. > :20:15.He is talking sometimes like an anti-capitalist and sometimes like a
:20:16. > :20:20.liberal cosmopolitan New York, but the populism isn't even coherent, he
:20:21. > :20:25.said in that speech things that were utterly contradictory, that sounded
:20:26. > :20:30.like a Liberal Democrat, and at other times he was flogging this
:20:31. > :20:35.racist anti-immigrant line. But Ukip is reaching out to the same sort of
:20:36. > :20:41.voters as Jeremy Corbyn because these are disrupt the times. But
:20:42. > :20:47.with more consistent arguments. In terms of what he says, do people in
:20:48. > :20:53.the US believe there will be a big wall between the US and Mexico? Few
:20:54. > :20:58.people believe he will expect crime problem? I wondered if people, at
:20:59. > :21:06.what level do the eye into this because they know crime will not be
:21:07. > :21:11.fixed by a president? To say that he is answering to a sense of ageing
:21:12. > :21:17.nation doesn't mean that I believe any more than any of us that he has
:21:18. > :21:22.the solutions. It seems to me evidently doesn't but even in defeat
:21:23. > :21:27.he will leave a huge vacuum in American politics that will have to
:21:28. > :21:32.be filled by somebody who can take those grievances and steer them in a
:21:33. > :21:38.more productive and redemptive way. There's a parallel between him and
:21:39. > :21:43.Jeremy Corbyn in Britain, no one believes Corbyn will become Prime
:21:44. > :21:47.Minister but he calls himself the voice of the disenfranchised, Trump
:21:48. > :21:52.calls himself, whatever arguments he uses maybe contradict it but he
:21:53. > :21:59.still has that wonderful sales line as the voice, we note there are
:22:00. > :22:03.injustices and imbalances in Britain, he may not be the one to
:22:04. > :22:11.solve them... Corbyn doesn't even pretend to want to be elected. But
:22:12. > :22:16.that is extra power in a quirky sense because he mobilises the
:22:17. > :22:20.grassroots on the streets. I would draw more of a parallel between
:22:21. > :22:27.Corbyn and Bernie Sanders because there is a sense of a movement, from
:22:28. > :22:32.is just loving himself. If I could inject an optimistic note, one thing
:22:33. > :22:35.that was impressed on me as a Brit who spent 40 years travelling the
:22:36. > :22:41.world on behalf of the New York Times is that America has the
:22:42. > :22:47.capacity to make big mistakes but also a capacity who correct them and
:22:48. > :22:53.rise again, and I think America will wind its way through this chaos and
:22:54. > :23:02.this rid of great anxiety and without Mr Trump it will one day
:23:03. > :23:07.be... Great. Winston Churchill once said the American people make the
:23:08. > :23:11.right decision usually after exhausting every possibility. Where
:23:12. > :23:17.does this leave Hillary Clinton, as the next president? I hope so. She
:23:18. > :23:22.has all sorts of problems but I think she would make a competent
:23:23. > :23:29.president. She is saying, intelligent, experienced, her
:23:30. > :23:35.foreign policy is quite sound and I think her personal failings were not
:23:36. > :23:42.impinge that much on her function as a president. And Tim Kane is a good
:23:43. > :23:50.choice electorally and for balance in the party. It's not the Bernie
:23:51. > :23:55.Sanders choice. She has made the calculation she needs to look
:23:56. > :23:58.towards the centre rather than them count on Bernie Sanders supporters,
:23:59. > :24:03.she is counting on them voting against front, I am not certain
:24:04. > :24:09.Trump cannot win, and I am also not sure about the vacuum, even if
:24:10. > :24:16.Hillary does with this phase is going to remain, this golf is going
:24:17. > :24:26.to remain. The Republican Party will be in difficulty whatever happens.
:24:27. > :24:31.They already are. It's a very good combination, Tim Kane and Hillary,
:24:32. > :24:36.and the difference between Trump and Hillary is that she continues to
:24:37. > :24:42.believe in using the instruments of State for responsible
:24:43. > :24:47.administration. They say she represents the establishment but
:24:48. > :24:52.don't write off the establishment completely, it has a mountain of
:24:53. > :24:58.historical precedent on which to try and evolve sensible policies. You
:24:59. > :25:05.have to try rather than coming with unfulfilled bold promises. Just
:25:06. > :25:11.eight I not God, I have the dust in American politics the app union
:25:12. > :25:18.polls, we get excited but they don't matter until September. Who believes
:25:19. > :25:25.in polls anymore? They have a great record. I thought you wanted to be
:25:26. > :25:26.positive? How much have they done for us so far?
:25:27. > :25:28.That's it for Dateline London for this week.
:25:29. > :25:31.You can comment on the programme on Twitter, @gavinesler and also
:25:32. > :25:34.We're back next week at the same time.
:25:35. > :25:36.Please make a date with Dateline London.