:00:00. > :00:00.places staying dry. Scotland and Northern Ireland are the focal point
:00:00. > :00:00.for more showers. Temperatures in the upper teens, maybe the low 20s
:00:00. > :00:00.in the south-eastern corner. Looking ahead towards next week, and we have
:00:07. > :00:09.some weather systems coming in from the Atlantic and it looks like it
:00:10. > :00:12.could be wet on Monday in the southern half of the UK. Looking out
:00:13. > :00:13.of the Atlantic for further whether his system is heading our way, next
:00:14. > :00:25.week it is increasingly unsettled. Hello and welcome
:00:26. > :00:28.to Dateline London. The Pope says the world is at war -
:00:29. > :00:31.but not over religion. Is Hillary Clinton,
:00:32. > :00:34.as President Obama put it, the best qualified candidate male
:00:35. > :00:36.or female ever to run And will being qualified
:00:37. > :00:40.actually help her against Plus: the Olympics -
:00:41. > :00:45.a festival of sport or a festival of cheating
:00:46. > :00:51.and performance enhancing drugs? My guests today are
:00:52. > :00:53.the writer and broadcaster Jeffrey Kofman, Nabila Ramdani
:00:54. > :00:55.who is a French Algerian journalist, Yasmin Alibhai Brown
:00:56. > :00:57.the writer and commentator, It does not take courage or skill
:00:58. > :01:12.for two 19-year-olds armed with knives to murder
:01:13. > :01:13.an unarmed 86-year-old man. Following the attack on an elderly
:01:14. > :01:16.catholic priest Jacques Hamel in Normandy, Pope Francis commented
:01:17. > :01:18.that the world is at war, but not over religion -
:01:19. > :01:21.over money and resources. And are French media organisations
:01:22. > :01:24.wise to decide not to carry pictures of terrorists to avoid posthumously
:01:25. > :01:34.glorifying what are fundamentally In terms of the world at war over
:01:35. > :01:39.resources, is that how people see it or is it more they seek to derange
:01:40. > :01:45.people on the fringes of French society who carried out this attack?
:01:46. > :01:50.The Pope is making a more general comment. He is a modern Pope. He
:01:51. > :01:55.needs to be a media player, he needs to come up with short, sharp sound
:01:56. > :02:00.bites as opposed to the more intellectual words he uses any way.
:02:01. > :02:05.He is right that the world is always at war and has been for thousands of
:02:06. > :02:10.years. It has been often over religion, often over other factors
:02:11. > :02:15.such as the balance of power and of course nowadays religion is less
:02:16. > :02:19.prominent in Western societies. I think his Holiness is absolutely
:02:20. > :02:24.right to argue money and resources are more likely to motivate
:02:25. > :02:28.aggressions by countries such as America and Russia rather than
:02:29. > :02:34.religion for example. That is why we have expressions such as oil wars.
:02:35. > :02:40.We have the military-industrial complex, from the US, that is so
:02:41. > :02:44.influential in the world. It supports countries that bolster its
:02:45. > :02:49.materialistic mindset. At the other end of the scale however, I think it
:02:50. > :02:55.is also fair to say that a lack of power and resources is also at the
:02:56. > :03:00.root of problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, to take up arms against
:03:01. > :03:08.other forces. Economic is the primary human factor and nothing
:03:09. > :03:13.much has changed. -- economics. I think he is using his position to
:03:14. > :03:18.define the conflict. I do not think it is about resources and economic,
:03:19. > :03:22.it is about culture, whether that is religion or values. It is the
:03:23. > :03:26.inability of France and other countries to reconcile with their
:03:27. > :03:31.large immigrant population, a population from the Middle East,
:03:32. > :03:33.often North Africa, they have not assimilated and have been
:03:34. > :03:40.marginalised the last 50 or 60 years. While he may say it is not
:03:41. > :03:47.religion, it has a religious origin, a religious cultural origin. You
:03:48. > :03:50.have to look at the facts however, none of those involved are
:03:51. > :03:57.particularly religious. They are often mentally ill. That is why I
:03:58. > :04:01.say culture. I think France has more to do with its own criminal
:04:02. > :04:05.underclass. As a general understatement about war is over
:04:06. > :04:11.resources, undoubtedly that is correct, but coming after a few
:04:12. > :04:16.19-year-olds who murder and 86 euros guy who happened to be a priest,
:04:17. > :04:21.that seemed to be giving a grandiose statement about something which was
:04:22. > :04:26.no better than street corner thugs. Yes, I think so. There's a tendency
:04:27. > :04:32.to glorify and build street thugs as this huge enemy, sophisticated
:04:33. > :04:40.force. There is nothing to this gated about what is at the end a
:04:41. > :04:47.cowardly and barbaric act. -- sophisticated. It is not possible in
:04:48. > :04:52.today's world to say it has nothing to do with religion. It is not
:04:53. > :04:55.possible. There is something happening in the Islamic world that
:04:56. > :05:00.is terrifying and it comes from Saudi Arabia. The sources are our
:05:01. > :05:06.allies. That is where some of this is coming from. I just do not think
:05:07. > :05:12.it is wise to say at this moment, yes, some of these people are
:05:13. > :05:15.mentally ill, some of them were bad, not mad, we have to admit there are
:05:16. > :05:21.some pretty awful people living everywhere. The religious motivation
:05:22. > :05:24.that is planted in the heads of young people, some of them from
:05:25. > :05:31.quite middle-class families. I do not know why it is happening, but it
:05:32. > :05:37.is the religious fervour that is being injected into the heads of
:05:38. > :05:44.people who were born here. What do you think? I think it does not help
:05:45. > :05:49.to describe it as war. You have military situation of a kind. These
:05:50. > :05:55.people are taking action, if you describe it as war, then the next
:05:56. > :06:01.censorship. This war language is an instinctive thing which does not
:06:02. > :06:06.help. The war on drugs, how has that lingering? Exactly. We have to look
:06:07. > :06:11.at the alienation factor, some are second, third generation. I know
:06:12. > :06:16.second and third-generation Bangladeshis who do not know what is
:06:17. > :06:24.their culture from whether parents came from. Is what has gone wrong
:06:25. > :06:30.where they do not know their historic ancestral culture and they
:06:31. > :06:34.do not feel part of this culture. Not enough attention is paid to
:06:35. > :06:43.that. Do you see echoes of that in France, people are not fully
:06:44. > :06:46.integrated? The Prime Minister of France often speaks about those
:06:47. > :06:53.ethnic minorities who are segregated. He speaks about it
:06:54. > :06:58.economic, social apartheid, but there is never any action by the
:06:59. > :07:02.government to make sure they are included and are part and parcel of
:07:03. > :07:07.French assertive. There is some radicalisation going on, but we
:07:08. > :07:11.essentially are dealing with very angry young men with criminal
:07:12. > :07:17.backgrounds who take on this fantastical cause, because they have
:07:18. > :07:23.nothing much to look forward to beyond prison. You can take up any
:07:24. > :07:28.cause and turn it into a murderous cause. Secularism was the most
:07:29. > :07:33.murderous ideology of the 20th century, Stalinism, Nazism, you can
:07:34. > :07:38.take anything and turn it into that. The point about religious warfare
:07:39. > :07:44.here, this is whether the Pope likes it or not, this has the potential if
:07:45. > :07:51.it is not already becoming that, one man died in a church in a small town
:07:52. > :07:59.in France. Remember, in January 2015, there was a terrorist attack
:08:00. > :08:04.on a grocery store, the attacks are almost expected, but to go to the
:08:05. > :08:09.heart of a Catholic nation, a small-town church, it does set the
:08:10. > :08:14.otherness of all of this. It plays into the extremism of Marine Le Pen.
:08:15. > :08:19.Anyone is a target as far as the criminals are concerned. You cannot
:08:20. > :08:25.ignore the fact that in the Middle East we have an explosive situation.
:08:26. > :08:32.When was the last time the Khalifa came up? It came up when the Ottoman
:08:33. > :08:39.Empire collapsed. In that sense it is a huge symbol for some Muslims.
:08:40. > :08:46.It is a deeply corrupt version of religion and politically. I am not
:08:47. > :08:50.denying that. We cannot avoid the central issue. We Muslims in the
:08:51. > :08:55.West, all around the world, there is not a single Muslim state where
:08:56. > :09:00.there is proper accountability where citizens feel safe. Not one. But we
:09:01. > :09:06.are talking about French individuals. Can I finish? Please,
:09:07. > :09:10.allow me to finish. We cannot get away from the fact that as I get a
:09:11. > :09:17.look lot of e-mails from young Muslims saying all I feel ashamed.
:09:18. > :09:21.There is part of that going on. Also the double standards. US bombs
:09:22. > :09:27.recently in the last two weeks killed hundreds of civilians. Right?
:09:28. > :09:32.Hundreds of civilians, dropped them in civilian areas. Young Muslims
:09:33. > :09:37.especially the most intelligent and watchful ones are consumed with the
:09:38. > :09:42.idea of double standards. All kinds of anger. Not just criminality or
:09:43. > :09:47.mental illness which are part of it, all kinds of things. All of this
:09:48. > :09:51.plays into the polarisation of politics, whether it is Donald Trump
:09:52. > :09:57.or Marine Le Pen, these terrorist acts are designed to create this. I
:09:58. > :10:01.agree with the view on the double standards. Now we are hearing from
:10:02. > :10:06.the Prime Minister who wants to prevent foreign funding to mosques
:10:07. > :10:10.in France. He has a fabricated assumption that Islam is the cause
:10:11. > :10:14.of terrorism. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot point your
:10:15. > :10:19.fingers at the Saudis and say we do not want your money in French masks
:10:20. > :10:26.and themselves weapons to Saudi Arabia which fuels conflict in
:10:27. > :10:30.Yemen. It is France, the US, the UK, they are our allies.
:10:31. > :10:33.The British people - we were told during the referendum
:10:34. > :10:36.on European Union membership - are tired of experts.
:10:37. > :10:38.Perhaps the American people are tired too -
:10:39. > :10:41.in which case Barack Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton
:10:42. > :10:43.as the best qualified candidate for the White House may not
:10:44. > :10:47.In the week of her nomination as the Democratic party candidate,
:10:48. > :10:49.do we think Hillary Clinton really can become the first female
:10:50. > :11:01.I hope she can. Not necessarily because I think it is the female
:11:02. > :11:06.argument, although it would be a good thing, we have a female Prime
:11:07. > :11:11.Minister. The woman I most admire in the world today is Angela Merkel. I
:11:12. > :11:19.really do, I wish I could live in Berlin, please do not e-mail and
:11:20. > :11:22.tell me to go! LAUGHTER You are right, there is this
:11:23. > :11:31.extraordinary reaction against the educated expert, the political class
:11:32. > :11:40.and so on. People want something raw and boy have they got raw meat in
:11:41. > :11:44.Donald Trump. There is a real risk. It is interesting to watch the two
:11:45. > :11:48.conventions, the Democratic convention was conventional if you
:11:49. > :11:53.like, Hillary Clinton turned up the day before with President Obama. The
:11:54. > :11:58.Republican convention was a one-man show, Donald Trump was there all the
:11:59. > :12:03.time. Conventions used to be when the candidate came at the last
:12:04. > :12:06.moment and was crowned. It seems the American people have decided that
:12:07. > :12:11.their politics do not work. They will go for a millionaire or
:12:12. > :12:16.billionaire who espouse Cecil in business, it does not matter what he
:12:17. > :12:20.says and they seem to think when he gets into the White House he will
:12:21. > :12:24.appoint the right experts to make the country run well which is
:12:25. > :12:32.extraordinary. -- who is successful in business. If Hillary Clinton as
:12:33. > :12:36.we saw signs on Thursday night, if she can define Donald Trump rather
:12:37. > :12:40.than vice versa, these infantile tweets that came out yesterday and
:12:41. > :12:47.today, crooked Hillary was at it again. It is all schoolyard viewing,
:12:48. > :12:52.all 140 characters or luminous. She made it clear that he is a dangerous
:12:53. > :13:02.choice. She has to persuade the voters of that. -- of silliness.
:13:03. > :13:07.There is no guarantee he cannot beat Hillary. But he continues to put his
:13:08. > :13:11.foot in his mouth. Why do so many people according to the opinion
:13:12. > :13:16.polls, the complicated way that presidents are elected we will get
:13:17. > :13:23.two in a second, the polls show that he is ahead, if he puts his foot in
:13:24. > :13:27.his mouth, then it plays into that narrative. Traditional politics here
:13:28. > :13:33.in the UK and the US is not serving a huge area of the middle-class, the
:13:34. > :13:36.lower class, those people feel the opportunities of the 21st century...
:13:37. > :13:41.We have talked about it before, they feel it has passed them by. Brexit
:13:42. > :13:45.is an expression of that and Donald Trump is an expression of that. He
:13:46. > :13:54.wants to take it back to the white world. He wants to take it back to a
:13:55. > :14:01.world that never existed. The slogan was we want our country back said
:14:02. > :14:05.the Leave campaign and the simple-minded slogans seem to have a
:14:06. > :14:10.potency I never thought possible. Hillary Clinton finally pointed out
:14:11. > :14:19.when did America sees to be great? That is the pushback. If Americans
:14:20. > :14:23.think that, they may conclude... I think she is still very much in the
:14:24. > :14:27.running. After a messy beginning to the week with the Bernie Sanders
:14:28. > :14:33.people booing her agenda and her, she managed to pull the party
:14:34. > :14:36.together. She is not a terrific or so, but her speech pressed all the
:14:37. > :14:48.buttons she needed to commission showed humanity and vision. -- a too
:14:49. > :14:56.horrific speaker. I spoke in Michigan teaching, that is an area
:14:57. > :14:59.that is crucial to trump. They are traditionally Democrats, they are
:15:00. > :15:04.increasingly turning Republican red, that means that Donald Trump's
:15:05. > :15:09.victory, he can be within reach. I have a lot of friends who live
:15:10. > :15:15.there, male and female and they absolutely despise Hillary Clinton.
:15:16. > :15:19.They view her as an old has mean who should have retired years ago with
:15:20. > :15:26.her millions of dollars. They see her as a thoroughly dishonest
:15:27. > :15:30.politician who is greedy. Of course, in principle, having the first woman
:15:31. > :15:37.president in the US could be a very good thing, but why does it have two
:15:38. > :15:42.be the dodgy one. The dodgy wife of a former president. Issue really
:15:43. > :15:50.dodgy? Bill Clinton said there are two Hillary is, the caricature and
:15:51. > :15:55.the real one. -- Hillarys. When you look at her versus Donald Trump's
:15:56. > :16:00.business fraud... To have your own e-mail server. She has made some
:16:01. > :16:09.colossal mistakes which you will pay for. Trump was saying that it would
:16:10. > :16:16.be good if the Russians would drop a bomb, that does not seem to have
:16:17. > :16:20.affected him. People feel fairly disenfranchise, people from the car
:16:21. > :16:24.industry, the steel industry, they do not have a job and they do not
:16:25. > :16:29.think they have a future. When Donald Trump goes into those states
:16:30. > :16:34.and promises if he becomes president, Apple will have to have
:16:35. > :16:37.its factories in America as opposed to China, cars will have to be
:16:38. > :16:43.produced in America as opposed to Mexico, he speaks to those people,
:16:44. > :16:51.he is offering them a job. Even people think it is nonsense, the
:16:52. > :16:56.experts would you cannot tell Apple where to put their factories? Well,
:16:57. > :17:02.unemployment in the US has gone down. Present Obama came in in 2008
:17:03. > :17:07.when the economy was in a tailspin and the economy is quite strong now.
:17:08. > :17:12.-- President Obama. These people work in Walmart during the day and
:17:13. > :17:16.then they work in KFC at night, they are carrying two jobs to stay afloat
:17:17. > :17:21.and they are barely staying afloat, that is the resentment. That was the
:17:22. > :17:27.same with the Brexit vote. People feel left behind by globalisation.
:17:28. > :17:30.At the heart of one of the bills is a very frightening anti-immigrant
:17:31. > :17:38.sentiment that Donald Trump is buying into. I do agree with what
:17:39. > :17:43.you said about Hillary Clinton, I share some of your reservations, but
:17:44. > :17:49.my God, when this mantle is about Mexicans and Muslims and the other
:17:50. > :17:55.in the open way he does, it is the lesser of the two evils. Gerald Ford
:17:56. > :17:59.was supposed to have lost the election because he did not know
:18:00. > :18:03.that Eastern Europe was under the rule of the Communists, but Donald
:18:04. > :18:06.Trump says the Mexicans will build a wall and the Mexicans have said they
:18:07. > :18:14.will not build a wall, that does not feature. He is getting away with
:18:15. > :18:18.this kind of rhetoric and what is interesting is what has so change in
:18:19. > :18:23.America, even his supporters do not believe the Mexicans will pay the
:18:24. > :18:28.wall. A lot of people do not believe he will actually build a wall, but
:18:29. > :18:31.the metaphor and the rhetoric of what they like. It is not that they
:18:32. > :18:36.are being suckered into believing that this war which would cost
:18:37. > :18:42.billions would be financed by a country that be hurt by it. The
:18:43. > :18:46.world's only superpower, that has only Donald Trump and Hillary
:18:47. > :18:51.Clinton, that is depressing. You sound like an American voter! A lot
:18:52. > :18:55.of people are in that position. I would rather have a much more
:18:56. > :18:59.talented candidate against Donald Trump. I do not like the politicians
:19:00. > :19:03.who have been defeated in the past and come back. We see that in French
:19:04. > :19:08.politics, but Hillary Clinton has been defeated by President Obama
:19:09. > :19:14.because she was far less popular and credible. We are where we are and
:19:15. > :19:18.now the bigger threat to the world actually is Donald Trump. Actually,
:19:19. > :19:22.I would dispute that. In terms of the safety and the stability of the
:19:23. > :19:29.rest of the world, Hillary Clinton could be a much more dangerous
:19:30. > :19:33.prospect. Why? His foreign policy is absolutely clear, he will withdraw
:19:34. > :19:38.into some kind of Republican isolationism. Whereas we know that
:19:39. > :19:44.Clinton is a warmonger. She will antagonise, she will continue
:19:45. > :19:54.Obama's aggressive drone policies, antagonise Putin and Iran. Iran was
:19:55. > :19:57.brought into the fold. This is believed to be the reason why the
:19:58. > :20:06.Russians have hacked into her computers. This leads directly to
:20:07. > :20:13.the murder of the US ambassador. I'm sorry, Donald Trump may offer you a
:20:14. > :20:16.job in a minute. I am not underestimating her danger is that
:20:17. > :20:22.man is, I'm just discussing foreign policy. I will cheer us all up by
:20:23. > :20:29.talking about the Olympics. Having seen what is happening with dope
:20:30. > :20:33.testing, it is a time stuff there. I think the Olympics will be the most
:20:34. > :20:38.difficult. In the past we have always had Will the stage in the
:20:39. > :20:42.right, first of all some of the stadiums, some people have not even
:20:43. > :20:49.gone into the athletes village, but the fact of doping, yes, it does
:20:50. > :20:54.mean sporting corruption, but that is brown envelopes being exchanged.
:20:55. > :20:59.When you have doping, you cannot believe in sport. It is the myth and
:21:00. > :21:03.the magic of sport. When someone lines up, you want someone to beat
:21:04. > :21:07.him, now you watch the race and you do not know who is on drugs and who
:21:08. > :21:12.is not and that destroys the whole basis. You have to trust that this
:21:13. > :21:20.is people by their own time and grit and perseverance. The whole business
:21:21. > :21:23.of the Olympics, whether you look at international football, everything
:21:24. > :21:31.has been corrupted by money, everything. There are no sports any
:21:32. > :21:38.more. Even cricket. One of the greatest of moral games! I think the
:21:39. > :21:41.Olympics are different from them international football, American
:21:42. > :21:47.baseball, just as an international collective face on a collective of
:21:48. > :21:56.ideals and when the modern Olympics began in 1896, it was about bringing
:21:57. > :22:01.nations together. It was an enlightened way to unite the world.
:22:02. > :22:08.Even those who are chosen to host the Olympics, the corruption goes
:22:09. > :22:11.all the way. What we have seen with Russia is a state dominated
:22:12. > :22:16.drug-taking which we have not seen since the days of the East Germans
:22:17. > :22:20.and on a very big scale, even the Russian secret service was involved,
:22:21. > :22:24.making sure it is happening. The money point is you cannot offend the
:22:25. > :22:31.Russians or anyone who is too powerful because there are so many
:22:32. > :22:35.at -- because there are so much money at stake. The IOC think it is
:22:36. > :22:39.their sport and they want the whole world to be there, one of the
:22:40. > :22:44.decisions they take is to cosy up to politicians where is in the past
:22:45. > :22:49.they did not do that. In Rio, for the athletes they have to swear they
:22:50. > :22:56.will not dope or take drugs. This is where the world has come to. They
:22:57. > :23:00.will not take drugs now! LAUGHTER Do you remember the remaining team?
:23:01. > :23:11.And then you remember how much was going on. It is not new. I think the
:23:12. > :23:16.system was created where people can form as individuals, now we have
:23:17. > :23:21.Team GB. It has become very much a patriotic thing rather than
:23:22. > :23:27.individuals. Yes. I think my general view is I have always thought of the
:23:28. > :23:31.Tour de France as having the best unity in the world, despite years of
:23:32. > :23:38.shambolic drug scandals, it always comes back every year as if nothing
:23:39. > :23:43.has happened! It is one of the few things we can win! The Olympics are
:23:44. > :23:47.going down exactly the same way and I have to say they are letting the
:23:48. > :23:51.Russians compete in the rear Olympics and I think that is like
:23:52. > :23:57.having Lance Armstrong back in the Tour de France, it turns everything
:23:58. > :24:01.into a laughing stock. It is how the politicians view sport. Obama and
:24:02. > :24:05.Cameron played table tennis and people judge them on how well they
:24:06. > :24:12.were playing. That is something that Clement Attlee and Winston Church
:24:13. > :24:19.would not have done. Maybe golf. -- Winston Churchill. I am interested
:24:20. > :24:24.in sport, I read the back pages, but now it is on the front pages. Putin
:24:25. > :24:29.plays this game brilliantly, he got the Winter games, but that was an
:24:30. > :24:35.artificial city he built. After the games, will people start playing the
:24:36. > :24:39.games? One solution would be to let everyone take as many drugs as they
:24:40. > :24:46.want and then everybody is equal. In a desperate attempt to end the
:24:47. > :24:54.programme on a happy note, the 2012 Olympics was going to be a disaster,
:24:55. > :24:58.but it was brilliant. It really was. When we get some great results and
:24:59. > :25:06.Usain Bolt does his stuff, we will all feel yes! Looking at what we
:25:07. > :25:13.were and what Britain has since become. You have just killed the
:25:14. > :25:19.feel-good factor. Sorry, I am a depressive! LAUGHTER
:25:20. > :25:23.You can comment on the programme on Twitter and engage
:25:24. > :25:27.We're back next week at the same time -