:00:24. > :00:33.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:34. > :00:35.The jailing of a British notorious recruiter for Islamic extremism.
:00:36. > :00:37.India - Pakistan - and the constant battle over
:00:38. > :00:43.Plus: Donald Trump shakes up his campaign yet again.
:00:44. > :00:46.My guests today are: Mina al Oraibi a writer on Arab affairs.
:00:47. > :00:48.Jef McAllister who is an American writer and broadcaster.
:00:49. > :00:50.Ashis Ray of Ray Media and Adam Raphael who is
:00:51. > :00:57.Anjem Choudary has for years been one of the most
:00:58. > :00:59.despised people in Britain - a foghorn voice stirring
:01:00. > :01:06.up some young Muslims to fight for Islamic State
:01:07. > :01:09.and outraging many more Muslims and non Muslims with the fact
:01:10. > :01:16.that he got away with it for so long.
:01:17. > :01:29.For two decades he managed to just stay with and the law now he has
:01:30. > :01:34.been jailed. If I can start with you, Mina. Anjem Choudary, totally
:01:35. > :01:40.notorious. What is your reaction. The reaction from many people is
:01:41. > :01:46.finalised. This should have happened many years ago. He has used
:01:47. > :01:52.loopholes in the British legal system knowing when he could say
:01:53. > :01:58.things that would still rile up people but not get them in trouble
:01:59. > :02:03.what the law. He has recently used technology and his Twitter account
:02:04. > :02:14.was even live the day he was convicted. He is part of a wider
:02:15. > :02:17.network of people who are preachers of hate. Rather than on Islamic
:02:18. > :02:24.pictures they are preachers of hate and they are dividing society more
:02:25. > :02:32.and more. -- Islamic preachers of hate. So in some sense this is
:02:33. > :02:35.significant but in another way it is troubling because now he is
:02:36. > :02:40.imprisoned there are some concerns he can buy that allows people would
:02:41. > :02:44.then prison and maintain some networks outside of prison. It is
:02:45. > :02:49.important this does not become a place for him to continue his
:02:50. > :02:55.network in some way or tried to look like a martyr. You how great is that
:02:56. > :02:56.danger? I think it is great and the prison authorities will have to take
:02:57. > :03:10.steps to stop this. One must remember the Charlie Hebdo murderers
:03:11. > :03:14.were radicalised and present by a similar character. I am critical of
:03:15. > :03:19.British Government for allowing him to preach for so long. Yes, it was
:03:20. > :03:24.within the law but the law this directive and the difficulty is a
:03:25. > :03:27.balancing free speech and the ability to control people like that
:03:28. > :03:32.and I believe we have drawn the line in the wrong place. While
:03:33. > :03:36.acknowledging the importance of free speech but judge did not allow
:03:37. > :03:42.someone like him to go on reaching this for more than a decade. With
:03:43. > :03:48.the internet, his words and pictures, some of them are still
:03:49. > :03:53.available online. It is very difficult as if it is not him if it
:03:54. > :03:59.to somebody else. The weekly internet works and the way people
:04:00. > :04:03.can find things -- the way the internet works. And these can
:04:04. > :04:09.reinforce these views. An interesting study showed most people
:04:10. > :04:13.who were arrested for terrorist offences in this country or working
:04:14. > :04:17.in the Prevent programme on the verge of it's still the personal
:04:18. > :04:21.contact on their way to radicalisation. It is not just
:04:22. > :04:27.something you do with the few strokes of the keyboard so it is
:04:28. > :04:34.important for authorities to keep track of the networks and CD
:04:35. > :04:38.interactions but Twitter says it has got many accounts for terrorism this
:04:39. > :04:42.year but these things are still up to date. This is something that
:04:43. > :04:46.requires more resources and attention and is not something we do
:04:47. > :04:51.naturally, it requires a rethink about how we look after the
:04:52. > :04:56.particular hate mongers without alienating other people for whom the
:04:57. > :05:02.idea they are intervened in their own society, you are not allowed to
:05:03. > :05:11.do things that you think are perfectly normal, we have two
:05:12. > :05:17.obviously be careful to enlist the work of these people. It is
:05:18. > :05:25.boundaries of free speech. What can you say? You can look at it that
:05:26. > :05:30.way, I agree. That is the most serious question. I think what is
:05:31. > :05:35.interesting is he has been convicted for not relate what he did or what
:05:36. > :05:44.he preached within Britain but for an external matchers matter, his
:05:45. > :05:51.support for Isis. -- external matter. The question Britain must
:05:52. > :05:56.ask is why it is happening and why are so many people susceptible to
:05:57. > :06:02.his influence? I think there are certain fundamentals that Britain
:06:03. > :06:06.must look at. One of them is the policy of multiculturalism which has
:06:07. > :06:17.led to a policy of appeasement and this has created a vote among
:06:18. > :06:25.political -- fought among the groups that politicians are choosing. That
:06:26. > :06:28.a vote among groups. What is happening is multiculturalism has
:06:29. > :06:32.led to an assertion of religious identity among immigrants in this
:06:33. > :06:40.country and this is something that Britain must be watchful of. We do
:06:41. > :06:44.have the Prevent strategy. Mina, do you think that is working. There has
:06:45. > :06:50.been criticism from some Muslim communities that they feel it is not
:06:51. > :06:56.tackle the problem and there is a danger it alienates. I think Prevent
:06:57. > :07:01.has been quite successful. In preventing people turning to
:07:02. > :07:07.extremism? Preventing actual attacks happening because there is one thing
:07:08. > :07:10.about ideology, because we do not want to pull the spots but in terms
:07:11. > :07:15.of how they will act and that is where the criminal line can be
:07:16. > :07:20.drawn. If you are going to do harm on others that is where you can have
:07:21. > :07:26.people jailed and Anjem was Colin people to hurt others. I think
:07:27. > :07:32.multiculturalism is quite good in this country has been a success and
:07:33. > :07:35.people who get involved with Isis are criminals and should be treated
:07:36. > :07:39.with such. I do not think we should seek multiculturalism is the
:07:40. > :07:46.problem. This country has succeeded where other countries haven't by
:07:47. > :07:52.allowing multiple identities. You can be proud of being a British but
:07:53. > :07:56.also be proud of your roots. The Prevent strategy is focusing not
:07:57. > :08:00.allowing cells to come together and carry out attacks and that is the
:08:01. > :08:07.success Britain has had, touch wood, but others not. I would say a policy
:08:08. > :08:10.of integration should have been fundamental in the policy connected
:08:11. > :08:15.with immigration. Rather than allowing too much of assertion of
:08:16. > :08:18.foreign identity. We do move on. India and Pakistan are two nuclear
:08:19. > :08:21.powers who have never entirely been at peace with one another -
:08:22. > :08:23.especially over Each accuses the other of stirring
:08:24. > :08:27.up trouble in a sub-continental Cold War which touches China
:08:28. > :08:38.and Afghanistan too. How likely is the possibility
:08:39. > :08:54.of escalation into something Ashis, is this a continuation of the
:08:55. > :08:57.same conflict or is there a new generation of young Kashmiris
:08:58. > :09:03.getting engaged? It is larger and internal problem and problem of the
:09:04. > :09:09.scent of people against the local administration. -- dissent. It is
:09:10. > :09:12.also the failure of central Government and handling the
:09:13. > :09:18.situation in Kashmir because when you have 45 days of curfews, 16
:09:19. > :09:31.people killed in clashes between security forces that accept stay.
:09:32. > :09:38.That is unacceptable. -- 16 people. -- 60 people. The main state in a
:09:39. > :09:42.Kashmiri politics has been the National party, who are now in
:09:43. > :09:47.opposition, and they expressed their fury on this matter and so have the
:09:48. > :09:51.left parties so people in India are not exactly happy about what is
:09:52. > :09:55.happening in Kashmir because they are killing their own people and
:09:56. > :10:00.that is something people have found disturbing. It is an internal matter
:10:01. > :10:06.and needs to be tackled carefully and with a consensus among political
:10:07. > :10:12.parties. Add-on, you get the sense of British authorities are content
:10:13. > :10:15.to leave it as an internal matter, despite historic ties. There have
:10:16. > :10:21.been three or four Mac wars between India and Pakistan over the past 50
:10:22. > :10:27.years and there have been frequent, apart from the wars, frequent
:10:28. > :10:31.disturbances. The idea that this will escalate into something major,
:10:32. > :10:36.I do not think so. More saves have too much to lose for that. The
:10:37. > :10:43.Indian army is ten times the size of the Pakistani army. -- both sides
:10:44. > :10:46.have too much to lose. I was in Kashmir a long time ago when it was
:10:47. > :10:52.very peaceful but even so you could feel the underlying tensions. These
:10:53. > :10:55.keep on coming out. I do not think there is a reasonable solution. I
:10:56. > :11:02.think the rest of the world must be watchful -- easy solution. I
:11:03. > :11:07.downplay it is a major, major conflict. As we heard, these are two
:11:08. > :11:13.nuclear powers that are engaged in this conflict. Well, well become
:11:14. > :11:19.tableaux of its? This is one of those problems -- will become
:11:20. > :11:24.tableaux. It seems there needs to be political process. There are people
:11:25. > :11:28.who are deeply discontented and in the past there has been the idea and
:11:29. > :11:36.discussions involving dissident parties in Kashmir and Pakistan and
:11:37. > :11:43.parties in India. Basically now nothing is happening and the Modi
:11:44. > :11:46.policy appears to be economics on the comedy of money and build up the
:11:47. > :11:55.region without doing anything about the political grievances. -- give
:11:56. > :11:59.them money. As people get radicalised through the internet and
:12:00. > :12:05.the side and soul of Isis, who say they want to expand into Kashmir.
:12:06. > :12:09.The ingredients are there for things getting worse. I do not think
:12:10. > :12:14.Washington -based that much attention, they have other crazies
:12:15. > :12:20.to worry about. This seems to have gone off -- the other crisis. This
:12:21. > :12:28.has gone off the bone and we need to return to it. -- on Fleetwood Mac.
:12:29. > :12:35.You in Kashmir seeing a new generation of rebel leaders using
:12:36. > :12:42.social media. -- they have put it on the burner. It is interesting
:12:43. > :12:45.because there was hope there would be more political stamina to try to
:12:46. > :12:50.come to agreements between Pakistan and India and that seems completely
:12:51. > :12:56.implausible. Partly because there has been a building or politics but
:12:57. > :13:01.also because of international powers that aren't really interested. But
:13:02. > :13:06.it is important to solve this issue, or the Kashmiris themselves. Quite
:13:07. > :13:09.often we get riled up discussion on geopolitics but at the end of the
:13:10. > :13:14.day there are people on the ground and people are losing their lives.
:13:15. > :13:21.The two countries are committed to solve their problems bilaterally and
:13:22. > :13:25.peacefully. On the basis of the similar agreement of 1972 but
:13:26. > :13:32.obvious that that is easier said than done and as long as there is
:13:33. > :13:36.the Army in Pakistan calling the shots and there is a nexus between
:13:37. > :13:42.the army and the religious extremists and the hardline Prime
:13:43. > :13:49.Minister in India and things are plans. I agree nobody is likely to
:13:50. > :13:51.be so silly as to take it further than the few exchanges of hot words.
:13:52. > :13:52.We will move on. Donald Trump's campaign chairman
:13:53. > :13:54.Paul Manafort received millions of dollars,
:13:55. > :14:00.we were told this week, from the former Putin backed
:14:01. > :14:12.government of Ukraine. He seems to have adopted a new tone
:14:13. > :14:18.and even expressing regret for some of his comments. Will this help them
:14:19. > :14:20.and how are his allies viewing this race?
:14:21. > :14:30.Does his new tone really mean anything, or the departure of his
:14:31. > :14:35.campaign German? The cute so what he expressed regret he done it from the
:14:36. > :14:44.telephone number and when -- whenever he does that it is a lie.
:14:45. > :14:47.-- read from a teleprompter. What he is good at is saying these things
:14:48. > :14:56.that get them on the news, extraordinary claims, Obama is the
:14:57. > :15:01.founder of Isis, Hillary Clinton is sick. People in favour of guns
:15:02. > :15:06.should shoot Mrs Clinton. The Russians should happen the e-mails.
:15:07. > :15:08.For any other kind of person to see any of these things with this
:15:09. > :15:14.qualified but this is what has worked for him, it got him the
:15:15. > :15:19.nomination and gotten as far as he is. When he tries to be so what
:15:20. > :15:24.policy politician does not work so the figures, what do I have to lose?
:15:25. > :15:33.As all numbers are so low now it is hard to see how he get back -- as
:15:34. > :15:36.his poll numbers. Georgia and Arizona, which voted for Republicans
:15:37. > :15:42.for the past 30 years, our employee. He is below metal from the's numbers
:15:43. > :15:50.in every battle ground state. He has a 70% disapproval rating. -- Mitt
:15:51. > :15:56.Romey numbers. So I think he figures it is good for my brand, set uphill
:15:57. > :16:01.and make money after she was in the campaign, I might go to work and
:16:02. > :16:10.start my own news network and see what happens. -- Sarah Palin made
:16:11. > :16:15.money. Don't run down the teleprompter. I got fired by the BBC
:16:16. > :16:21.because I could not predict! Ronald Reagan was one of the greatest
:16:22. > :16:27.operators of it. -- because I could not read it. What is happening here
:16:28. > :16:32.is an extraordinary race. Everyone forecast this guy was a hopeless
:16:33. > :16:37.character who would not get the nomination. He now has it, everyone
:16:38. > :16:43.forecast he will lose, as I do. What I am interested in is will he bring
:16:44. > :16:47.down the Republican party with him? It is an extraordinary choice for
:16:48. > :16:50.them to have made and he could cost them dearly, both in the Senate and
:16:51. > :16:58.house and I would be interested in your view of how serious their
:16:59. > :17:03.losses will be. Let me bring in Mina here. What concerns are there that
:17:04. > :17:08.these views about building a wall, clamping down on Muslims in the
:17:09. > :17:16.country, OK, his poll ratings seem to be dropping apart without more
:17:17. > :17:21.concern is the lasting damage? It will definitely be here. One, he
:17:22. > :17:23.made it OK to say these things and the idea that if you are not racist
:17:24. > :17:31.you are politically correct and being a liar, so the idea that being
:17:32. > :17:36.politically correct is a bad thing is a lasting. Also, he will not go
:17:37. > :17:41.away. If he loses the presidency, and I do not necessarily believe the
:17:42. > :17:48.polls as many people will not tell the pollsters they overcome. We saw
:17:49. > :17:52.what happened in the UK where we were complacent and people said one
:17:53. > :17:57.thing and the result was that it. So he will not go into the wilderness
:17:58. > :18:03.and the networking is building around him and the idea he is
:18:04. > :18:10.getting close to Roger Ailes, just left at Fox News because of sexual
:18:11. > :18:14.harassment case. Sort your people like that forming around him and
:18:15. > :18:19.that could be forming a new political movement within the USA.
:18:20. > :18:23.Is their concern about how this will play out in terms of the USA's
:18:24. > :18:28.relations with the rest of the world? Indeed. The USA is the most
:18:29. > :18:32.powerful country in the world and therefore the presidential election
:18:33. > :18:37.of the USA is of concern and interest to the entire world. The
:18:38. > :18:43.com and in chief of that country, you wonder how it is but a
:18:44. > :18:47.mainstream political party like the Republican party have got a
:18:48. > :18:53.candidate like this man, Donald Trump, and therefore it is indeed
:18:54. > :18:57.worrying because the whole world is concerned about this selection and
:18:58. > :19:02.hope something untoward does not happen. Keeping their fingers
:19:03. > :19:07.crossed for Hillary Clinton. I suppose there is a vast number of
:19:08. > :19:10.people in the world who was hope and pray Hillary Clinton wins. But there
:19:11. > :19:20.are sections in the world who are very happy with Donald Trump,
:19:21. > :19:26.including, by the way, a section of Modi's soul mates and America. What
:19:27. > :19:30.plant has done is draw attention to a disaffected elements of the
:19:31. > :19:38.population who have valid grievances. -- waterfront has done.
:19:39. > :19:42.It is an important element and in respect of what happens, and I hope
:19:43. > :19:47.he loses, he will have done a service and that extent. You cannot
:19:48. > :19:51.ignore these people. Like many people who voted for Brexit, the
:19:52. > :19:56.have lost out through globalisation, lost out a immigration and the
:19:57. > :20:01.liberal consensus which I am afraid we all represent around here, we
:20:02. > :20:07.have ignored it for too long. The tea party made this point for a long
:20:08. > :20:13.time. I agree Donald Trump has drawn special attention to it but in order
:20:14. > :20:19.to wallow in it, does he have a single idea that would solve the
:20:20. > :20:23.problem seized on attention to? And Hillary Clinton is interested in the
:20:24. > :20:27.and trying to fix infrastructure and do the hard things that the
:20:28. > :20:34.Government must do. I take your point but I still think the is
:20:35. > :20:38.revelling and accentuating in the problems and he has gone past so
:20:39. > :20:43.many boundaries of almost decency is a right word, that a complicated
:20:44. > :20:50.country requires to operate successfully. The danger he will
:20:51. > :20:53.come out of the election, as he is already saying, the election is
:20:54. > :20:57.illegitimate, my votes were stolen from me. The whole basis of the
:20:58. > :21:03.society has come up which we will hear a lot more of as we get towards
:21:04. > :21:09.the election. His new director was working with Nigel Fiveash Annie
:21:10. > :21:15.Brexit campaigners -- Nigel Fiveash. We will hear a lot about that and
:21:16. > :21:20.that is not the way to run a complicated country. And how great
:21:21. > :21:24.our concerns about that, he says America withdrawing somewhat from
:21:25. > :21:30.international engagement? If the Senate, five years on, a in
:21:31. > :21:34.desperate dire straits and the Americans clearly very unwilling to
:21:35. > :21:42.be drawn in. -- if you look at Syria. That is the Obama presidency.
:21:43. > :21:48.In some ways his way of engaging was through speeches and saying we want
:21:49. > :21:53.to be your friend. Most people see it as the main superpower, of course
:21:54. > :22:00.we see a resurgence of Russia and everything from Russia's possible
:22:01. > :22:06.role into the S hack and that their role in Syria this week were used in
:22:07. > :22:11.reading airbases Obama said it was hardly anything said by the USA.
:22:12. > :22:15.There is even be that a solution is and not holding this moral
:22:16. > :22:18.responsibility. Clinton would be a totally different by President, for
:22:19. > :22:23.sure. Do we have confidence in the Donald
:22:24. > :22:26.Trump as to what his foreign policy would be, what is a rack different
:22:27. > :22:29.type of president, for sure. Do we have confidence in the Donald Trump
:22:30. > :22:31.as to what his foreign policy would be, what is Iraq foreign policy --
:22:32. > :22:38.what his Iraq policy, Syria policy. We do not what -- we do not know
:22:39. > :22:43.what he stands for. In terms of his economic and foreign policy. We have
:22:44. > :22:51.no idea. She has no idea. The people who write his policy papers are not
:22:52. > :22:57.working for him. The Republican Party have said they will not work
:22:58. > :23:02.for Alan. He has not engaged in these matters seriously. -- will not
:23:03. > :23:13.work for him. He said he will not come to the aid of a Nato ally. How
:23:14. > :23:18.do you come up that idea? No doubt he is damaging to the USA.
:23:19. > :23:28.Even in Russia I suspect they regard him as a lunatic, I suspect. Our
:23:29. > :23:33.lunatic. He is speaking to a problem in America, aerial devices are based
:23:34. > :23:41.and that cannot be ignored, rubber ones the presidency. -- device base.
:23:42. > :23:47.People have voted this way, many of them, where art anti-immigrant in
:23:48. > :23:51.Britain during Brexit, they were not racist -- are not anti-American.
:23:52. > :23:57.They were sped up with the establishment and wanted their voice
:23:58. > :24:01.heard. -- fed up. He was a reality TV star who should not have been
:24:02. > :24:09.your best but he does speak for those people. The idea from is there
:24:10. > :24:14.for people who have not benefited from globalisation because look at
:24:15. > :24:19.what he stands for. He bankrupted himself for times and is still as
:24:20. > :24:22.multimillionaire. It is the false discourse that he represents the
:24:23. > :24:31.underprivileged, because he does not. Problem is how much damage he
:24:32. > :24:34.will do to the Republican Party. The election of senators and
:24:35. > :24:38.Representatives is the issue bought them because his unpopularity could
:24:39. > :24:45.take some of them down. Is that in real danger and that sentiment and
:24:46. > :24:50.sense there is a body of opinion in the USA but actually supports this,
:24:51. > :24:56.is that going to, by the handle of whoever emerges as an ex-president?
:24:57. > :25:03.The appalling as bad. But we have three more months to go. We could
:25:04. > :25:06.have revelations of corruption, we could offer lots of other things so
:25:07. > :25:12.who knows what will happen but right now the money from Republican
:25:13. > :25:18.donors, they are trying to shore up the Senate, it looks like the Senate
:25:19. > :25:22.may go Democrat, although it looks unlikely the house will go
:25:23. > :25:27.democratic but we do not know. What happens after the election? All
:25:28. > :25:30.barking in thinking, I am a consensus candidate, I want to build
:25:31. > :25:35.bridges, I will be nice and people will be nice with me. But
:25:36. > :25:39.immediately the Republicans said we will make him a one term president
:25:40. > :25:46.and delegitimise him. Donald Trump himself was saying he was not born
:25:47. > :25:53.in the USA. It will be hard to draw back from calling her early Clinton
:25:54. > :25:56.a liar, a trip, a murderer. If you get this wonderful prize of being
:25:57. > :26:01.the president and then try to make something of what is left, it will
:26:02. > :26:06.be very complicated. And there we have to leave it.
:26:07. > :26:08.That's it for Dateline London for this week.
:26:09. > :26:10.You can comment on the programme on Twitter #bbcdateline and also
:26:11. > :26:13.We're back next week at the same time.
:26:14. > :26:15.Make a date with Dateline London.
:26:16. > :26:46.After a reasonable week it has been a disappointing start to the
:26:47. > :26:47.weekend. This weather watcher picture from Minehead illustrates