:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:29.The future of the British Labour Party - if it has one.
:00:30. > :00:32.And the prospects for peace in Syria - if there are any.
:00:33. > :00:36.Alexander Nekrassov, who is a Russian commentator.
:00:37. > :00:38.Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg Markets.
:00:39. > :00:45.And political broadcaster Steve Richards.
:00:46. > :00:48.First, the Labour leadership election, which sets
:00:49. > :00:51.the course for the party, presumably, for the next few years.
:00:52. > :01:00.Certainly a massive mandate for Jeremy Corbyn as the new leader of
:01:01. > :01:04.the party, Leader of the Opposition, but presumably a massive kick in the
:01:05. > :01:08.teeth for the MPs who opposed them. A massive kick in the teeth and a
:01:09. > :01:12.wholly predictable one. There was an overwhelming lesson from this
:01:13. > :01:18.leadership contest, it is that the so-called rebels who trickled the
:01:19. > :01:22.contest must be the most strategically inept group of
:01:23. > :01:26.scheming tacticians in the history of British politics. Their objective
:01:27. > :01:29.in the early summer after the referendum was the room is Jeremy
:01:30. > :01:35.Corbyn. They gave him the dream platform. Obviously now, but at the
:01:36. > :01:42.time as well. Which is a leadership contest. He won by last time, they
:01:43. > :01:47.hadn't change the membership since last year, they haven't got a
:01:48. > :01:51.weighted candidate to take him on, and wholly predictably, the end
:01:52. > :01:54.result of the second leadership contest is an authority enhancing
:01:55. > :02:00.victory for Jeremy Corbyn. So if these rebels, and I understand all
:02:01. > :02:06.the dilemmas they faced, lecture us about how they are the ones with the
:02:07. > :02:09.strategic insight to wind a general election, I will wonder about that
:02:10. > :02:13.in the light of this. They need to do some deep thinking about how to
:02:14. > :02:18.work with this situation. They've tried this, it hasn't worked. They
:02:19. > :02:23.spent a year publicly slapping him off, that has an undermine him with
:02:24. > :02:31.this electorate. They need to think again about how they play this from
:02:32. > :02:35.now on. What they've been doing so far has been strategically inept.
:02:36. > :02:39.For Jeremy Corbyn, it is as it has always been in the context of his
:02:40. > :02:45.party, he has won two landslide wins and so within his party, albeit the
:02:46. > :02:50.membership and not the MPs, he remains the king. And not to mention
:02:51. > :02:54.the 60 million people who are not members of the British Labour Party
:02:55. > :03:01.who have an interest in the next Government will be and he was in
:03:02. > :03:05.leadership now. Here is the big question, Jeremy Corbyn's people
:03:06. > :03:11.have said give him a chance to do this without the endless attacks.
:03:12. > :03:16.Maybe he will have more success. The rebels say it is nothing to do with
:03:17. > :03:19.their noises, it is about him not being up to it. We cannot know the
:03:20. > :03:26.answer to that, he has never been given the space to lead his party
:03:27. > :03:32.without all the constant noise. The poll suggests before this contest,
:03:33. > :03:37.his ratings were abysmally low. But how much is that to do with the...
:03:38. > :03:41.It's a miracle frankly anyone is backing this party at the moment, it
:03:42. > :03:45.has been wholly dysfunctional. The question is, if he becomes less
:03:46. > :03:50.obviously dysfunctional, does his and its ratings improve? The only
:03:51. > :03:54.way we would find that out is if the rebels start to cooperate with him
:03:55. > :04:00.or try to. Rather than undermined him every minute of the day. It
:04:01. > :04:04.could be that he then is found totally wanting and I think they
:04:05. > :04:07.would have a better case, but they carry on undermining him, he will
:04:08. > :04:13.always have the excuse that it is them him and not him. Mustapha, had
:04:14. > :04:18.easy this? Presumably, wanted e-book the positions of what Steve is
:04:19. > :04:20.saying, every election will be a buy, the local elections next may
:04:21. > :04:26.take place and so on, whatever the general election says, how do you
:04:27. > :04:32.see it for him? A constant series of tests within the party and outside?
:04:33. > :04:40.Once Jeremy Corbyn said he can run an annual leadership election, I
:04:41. > :04:44.think. So he has done to so far. Certainly, if this goes on, it will
:04:45. > :04:50.damage the party, no doubt about that. -- he has done to Max over.
:04:51. > :04:57.Solidly, he won the election today, but can he win the nation, can he
:04:58. > :05:01.win the national election? And he lead Labour into winning the general
:05:02. > :05:10.election in two years, 2.5 years' time? This is doubtful, apparently.
:05:11. > :05:15.You cannot win general elections with 500,000 members. It is
:05:16. > :05:19.interesting, one poll, we can put health warnings on polls, said
:05:20. > :05:22.amongst Redditch people on the NHS, always the strongest or one of the
:05:23. > :05:26.strongest issues for the Labour Party since they invented it, he was
:05:27. > :05:31.behind Theresa May on whether he could look after it. Do you see that
:05:32. > :05:35.kind of thing as being part of the rebellion? People are saying, you're
:05:36. > :05:39.not competent within the party and that undoubtedly has undermined him.
:05:40. > :05:46.This is interesting, you mentioned the NHS, certainly there are other
:05:47. > :05:53.issues. The other no he mentioned in his acceptance speech, 4 million
:05:54. > :06:00.hungry people in the country, so there is a lot of poverty, a lot of
:06:01. > :06:12.NHS trouble and all of that, he can in fact use these important issues
:06:13. > :06:18.to probably recruit and change the political psyche within the Labour
:06:19. > :06:21.movement. See a? He is very popular in the country, he has a lot of
:06:22. > :06:26.paper within the Labour Party, a lot of people to join across the
:06:27. > :06:30.country. -- people. He wants them to go out and knock on doors and
:06:31. > :06:35.campaign immediately. Has been an inspirational figure for some
:06:36. > :06:40.people. Graeme Mackie talks all the time about democracy, but he somehow
:06:41. > :06:44.equates winning the backing of 300,000 Labour parties as more
:06:45. > :06:48.important then Labour MPs who were elected 9 million voters and erase
:06:49. > :06:52.this disconnect and I think the Democratic efforts in how the Labour
:06:53. > :06:58.Party is structured. The thing I think that rebel Labour MPs, it
:06:59. > :07:05.looks like they will sit back and either be picked off by momentum or
:07:06. > :07:09.face wipe-out at the next election. The thing I would like to focus on
:07:10. > :07:13.is the elephant in the room, Brexit. It is the thing Jeremy Corbyn never
:07:14. > :07:17.talks about. I don't think he has raised the issue at Prime Minister's
:07:18. > :07:23.Questions since the referendum. There are 60 million people who
:07:24. > :07:27.voted for Remain and they have no party to vote for at this point in
:07:28. > :07:31.the next election. The fact that he has failed to challenge the
:07:32. > :07:37.Government on the lack of a Brexit plan, the divisions within the Tory
:07:38. > :07:44.Party over this issue, highlights his lackluster campaigning in the
:07:45. > :07:47.run-up to the election. Angus Robertson of the SNP at Westminster
:07:48. > :07:50.who has challenged the Government repeatedly on Brexit and built
:07:51. > :07:55.allegedly have a Brexit plan, there have been a number of comments on
:07:56. > :07:59.social media saying, at least somebody is challenging him. You
:08:00. > :08:04.think, given that is possibly the biggest political issue of the three
:08:05. > :08:11.or four years... It is staggering that he has failed to challenge her
:08:12. > :08:14.on it. She is so easily challenged on it, there are so many issues at
:08:15. > :08:21.the top on this issue. That is why we saw Tim Farron of the Lib Dems
:08:22. > :08:23.this week make a conscientious graph are those voters.
:08:24. > :08:27.It will change everything at the election. You use to be a Kremlin
:08:28. > :08:31.advisor, maybe you know... I disagree with all of this. I will
:08:32. > :08:38.tell you why. First of all, Theresa May's appointment as Prime Minister
:08:39. > :08:42.was a godsend for Jeremy Corbyn because he has more legitimacy now
:08:43. > :08:47.than Theresa May because the Conservatives have bypassed the
:08:48. > :08:51.grassroots who were aching to elect a completely different candidate, by
:08:52. > :08:56.the way. Now they are angry against her. The problem with Theresa May is
:08:57. > :09:04.that she is trying her best to avoid Brexit completely. This grammar
:09:05. > :09:07.school reform was absolutely not the timely at all because it distracts
:09:08. > :09:13.attention from her main role homage to implement exit, to implement the
:09:14. > :09:18.will of the British people. Who needs grammar schools now, when
:09:19. > :09:24.nobody knows what's quick to happen with the EU? In this respect, Jeremy
:09:25. > :09:28.Corbyn looks very professional in a sense. He does not involve himself
:09:29. > :09:36.with a Brexit, because he can see the mess across, on the other side.
:09:37. > :09:39.Cable leave the tour is to provide the road opposition? I will tell you
:09:40. > :09:43.something, if you think there are only Blair supporters of the
:09:44. > :09:48.laborers are, there are on the Conservative side as well who are
:09:49. > :09:52.very worried about the Labour side. An interesting point, but let me put
:09:53. > :09:54.it to you this way. The Conservative Party may be fundamentally split on
:09:55. > :09:58.that issue and the grammar school issue and many others, but they are
:09:59. > :10:02.much better at hiding their divisions in the Labour Party. That
:10:03. > :10:06.may be an advantage or a disadvantage but... But wait for
:10:07. > :10:10.Brexit, starts to break them up big time. Nobody has yet said on the
:10:11. > :10:15.Conservative side, especially Theresa May, this is what we are
:10:16. > :10:20.going to do roughly, this is what we're going to do. There is nothing.
:10:21. > :10:28.The division has Artie started. Boris Johnson says something, David
:10:29. > :10:33.Davis says something. So you see this breaking up of the
:10:34. > :10:37.Conservative. I think you raise both of you in different ways key points.
:10:38. > :10:46.I don't know if Jeremy Corbyn needs a Kremlin 's most men at the moment.
:10:47. > :10:55.I'm joking! -- spokesman. I agree with you. I think that actually, all
:10:56. > :10:59.the media focuses on the disarray of the Labour Party. If I had to
:11:00. > :11:03.measure which party faced the deeper crisis, I would say this is
:11:04. > :11:06.counterintuitive, I would say it's the Conservative Party, because
:11:07. > :11:10.Brexit is insoluble and although you are right, they are better at the
:11:11. > :11:13.moment at hiding divisions, Europe has brought down every single Tory
:11:14. > :11:17.Prime Minister since Margaret Thatcher and they were facing much
:11:18. > :11:22.easier challenges than Theresa May does over Brexit. That raises the
:11:23. > :11:26.interest in question about the weather, at any point, the Labour
:11:27. > :11:30.Party can get its act together to appear as a credible alternative,
:11:31. > :11:34.because at some point in the next couple of years, the Tory Party will
:11:35. > :11:38.be in crisis over Brexit. That implies people will be looking to an
:11:39. > :11:42.alternative. That's what happened in the mid-90s when they were in crisis
:11:43. > :11:49.over the master treaty in Europe. The key question is Tomic can later
:11:50. > :11:53.get the act together and I think, in a way, the task for them to pull
:11:54. > :11:58.themselves together will be easier than the Tories coming round to some
:11:59. > :12:03.sort of united position on Brexit. But at the moment, days show no sign
:12:04. > :12:09.of it. But... You may be the first time... I want to move on, but let
:12:10. > :12:16.me push that. Each of the previous Conservative leaders brought down by
:12:17. > :12:18.Brexit had a degree of legitimate legitimacy that Theresa May doesn't
:12:19. > :12:22.have in the sense that they all faced the British public, they were
:12:23. > :12:26.all elected, they all had trouble over Brexit. John Major Tidwell,
:12:27. > :12:30.David Cameron obviously was reelected Prime Minister, Margaret
:12:31. > :12:35.Thatcher as well. -- did well. Does that suggest if you are facing these
:12:36. > :12:38.problems that you would go for an early election if the Prime
:12:39. > :12:42.Minister, because the problems are so difficult? You would completely
:12:43. > :12:46.deny it now but maybe in a gear's time? Side it depends, I think,
:12:47. > :12:52.partly on the on the what the polls are doing in the year's time. If she
:12:53. > :12:56.is miles ahead and feels that she has an agreement, it would be
:12:57. > :13:00.tempting to get an electoral endorsement for this. Those are two
:13:01. > :13:04.very big if. Especially the very good agreement one. Is she finds one
:13:05. > :13:09.that united Conservative Party and most people say, oh, wow, this is
:13:10. > :13:13.pretty damn good. She would be knocking at an open door with the
:13:14. > :13:17.election, but I don't think the negotiation she will be about to
:13:18. > :13:19.embark on will be as straightforward as that. I do not think there will
:13:20. > :13:21.be as straightforward as that. An aid convoy heading
:13:22. > :13:23.for the besieged Syrian town of Aleppo was destroyed this week --
:13:24. > :13:25.despite supposed ceasefires and agreements on humanitarian
:13:26. > :13:27.assistance for those people trying to stay alive in what used
:13:28. > :13:31.to be one of the great Do we know who did
:13:32. > :13:34.what to whom and why? And how badly tattered are relations
:13:35. > :13:41.now between Russia and the West? First of all, give us a sense of the
:13:42. > :13:46.Kremlin's thinking. What do they want in Syria? What do they want is
:13:47. > :13:50.a good outcome? First of all, I think that what the Kremlin wants is
:13:51. > :13:54.a stable Syria. I don't understand this thinking that Russia is
:13:55. > :14:00.actually interested in this instability. I don't think the
:14:01. > :14:03.Americans are also interested, but the Americans are sucked by their
:14:04. > :14:09.own policy into creating this instability. I think that after the
:14:10. > :14:18.cease-fire was agreed, we saw the bombing of the Syrian troops by
:14:19. > :14:20.the... Mistaken, and then suddenly is his moods and immediately and
:14:21. > :14:29.takes over the crucial position of the town, I think that distrust
:14:30. > :14:34.taken. But to use the Russian vendors during the bombing the aid
:14:35. > :14:41.convoy -- accuse, come on, guys, it is a work like this. When you see
:14:42. > :14:43.the footage produced by the drones, showing the convoy burning, but
:14:44. > :14:48.there are no signs of bombs around them. You cannot bomb a convoy
:14:49. > :14:57.without leaving craters around. Is there a crime you Kremlin serious to
:14:58. > :15:02.what happened credible? The footage from the drones shows there was
:15:03. > :15:06.rebels there, trucks and guns and so on, the agreement was that the
:15:07. > :15:12.Syrians and the rebels come of the Syrian army and the rebels, leave
:15:13. > :15:16.that route alone, they leave and allow the convoy to go. But then the
:15:17. > :15:22.footage shows the rebels actually accompanying boat convoy. -- the
:15:23. > :15:26.convoy. The Kremlin things the rebels has done the damage to
:15:27. > :15:35.discredits the cease-fire in their package. Mustapha is from Syria.
:15:36. > :15:39.This is a distraction from the real story, I'm not talking about human
:15:40. > :15:45.convoys of that. It is not this crazy crisis in the rear. It is much
:15:46. > :15:50.bigger than that. Russia, the irradiance, the Turkish as well,
:15:51. > :15:56.their hands are full of Syrian blood for so many years now. Five years
:15:57. > :16:02.now. How a regime like I said can sustain itself and could gain that
:16:03. > :16:10.long without the direct and total support of Russian arms, Iranian
:16:11. > :16:15.money, as well as militia, the Assad regime was about to fall so many
:16:16. > :16:22.times over the last five years. If it wasn't for the irradiance of port
:16:23. > :16:32.and direct support of Russia... Russia, you have to admit, it has
:16:33. > :16:37.strategic interest. -- Iranian. It is the only place they have a
:16:38. > :16:41.base... Russia does not need those bases, Russia is a nuclear
:16:42. > :16:46.superpower. We need to stop this cliche about these bases. Russia is
:16:47. > :16:53.a nuclear superpower, it doesn't need the bases. We are talking about
:16:54. > :16:56.is situation where we had Iraq disintegrating, losing Government,
:16:57. > :17:01.losing army and everything, turning into the wild place it is now. We
:17:02. > :17:07.have had Libya, where Russia stood aside and said to the West and China
:17:08. > :17:13.as well, by the way, said, OK, you're saying you're going take out
:17:14. > :17:18.all these nasty people... You're going to do reforms and put in an
:17:19. > :17:21.new regime, everything will be fine. Disaster in Libya! After Libya and
:17:22. > :17:30.Iraq, Russia could not stand the sight come up because the West,
:17:31. > :17:33.including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, turning the Middle East into an
:17:34. > :17:38.ungovernable region where they wanted to impose their own well and
:17:39. > :17:45.so on. To say that Russia is helping the Syrian Government, by the way,
:17:46. > :17:48.Russia is he on the country invited by the Government, no one else had
:17:49. > :17:53.been invited there... To say that this is a strategic interest because
:17:54. > :17:59.there are bases in Syria that are not even bases, they are tiny, tiny
:18:00. > :18:02.ports and so on... It is not the bases, we are not talking about the
:18:03. > :18:07.basis am a we are talking about the entire region itself. Interest, it
:18:08. > :18:18.is strategic in the global sense. From Ukraine yet, to you've got the
:18:19. > :18:22.Russian guys, to pass through Turkey to the Mediterranean, you've got to
:18:23. > :18:27.have a presence there, no doubt about this. Can you tell me then
:18:28. > :18:38.what does Putin want in Syria? Is he helping the Syrian to create a
:18:39. > :18:41.democracy? A stable country? I'm talking about avoiding in other
:18:42. > :18:48.Libya, which would be a disaster not just for the region but Israel as
:18:49. > :18:54.well. By the way, Israel has been in touch closely with Russia, they were
:18:55. > :18:57.worried about the situation developing out of control. I think
:18:58. > :19:02.we got to the heart of the debate. The criticism of Obama's policy, let
:19:03. > :19:05.me put it this way, the choice is between stability, which is what
:19:06. > :19:10.Russia wants, that means you have to have is that, or a ragtag army of
:19:11. > :19:14.various groups who all hate each other who might fight and that is
:19:15. > :19:19.definitely instability, therefore the Obama policy is doomed either to
:19:20. > :19:25.fail or just to keep the war going? The Obama policy has been more or
:19:26. > :19:29.less about doing very little. He has very consciously distanced himself
:19:30. > :19:32.from the Syrian conflict, viewing it as an intractable problem. It is
:19:33. > :19:39.interesting, there is an interview that came out in vanity Fair this
:19:40. > :19:41.week in which he said that Syria haunts him constantly, he keeps
:19:42. > :19:47.thinking about what he might have done differently to have saved the
:19:48. > :19:52.country from so much violence and bloodshed. But I think there was no
:19:53. > :19:57.support for a never interventionist policy, among the US electorate, he
:19:58. > :20:02.kept Weir of it. I don't think there is going to make much progress for
:20:03. > :20:07.the remainder of Obama's term. Let's say Hillary Clinton wins the US
:20:08. > :20:13.presidential election, which is still an if, she has talked about
:20:14. > :20:17.taking more action in Syria, creating no-fly zones, etc.. It
:20:18. > :20:20.would've that will depend on coming to some sort of agreement with
:20:21. > :20:24.Russia and her relationship with Putin is even frosty or because he
:20:25. > :20:30.regards Hillary Clinton as having been behind a lot of the public
:20:31. > :20:34.protest against him in 2011. It goes back to exactly why I think Putin is
:20:35. > :20:40.intervening to support Assad, which is that he views as set as the
:20:41. > :20:46.legitimate leader of Syria and that attempts at regime change are off
:20:47. > :20:51.base. He has criticised Hillary Clinton for tried to undermine his
:20:52. > :20:55.own position within Russia. I will come back to you, Mustapha, but that
:20:56. > :21:01.is absolutely the argument, though, isn't it? It was that proverb that
:21:02. > :21:04.you know better than I, that 100 years of dictatorship might be
:21:05. > :21:11.better than one year of instability. The awful mess will just continue.
:21:12. > :21:16.That is the choice you outlined, and nightmarish instability or
:21:17. > :21:20.maintaining this regime, a means of reason Obama didn't do very much and
:21:21. > :21:27.found because it is intractable. Just the sequence where the UK were
:21:28. > :21:32.involved in voting possibly for air strikes against military chemical
:21:33. > :21:38.weapons targets of aside and now joining Russia and others against
:21:39. > :21:44.Isis, various points of Syria, highlights the impossibility, one
:21:45. > :21:48.moment you're attempting to remove the regime by what Obama now inmates
:21:49. > :21:53.would've been pretty ineffective attacks, the next you are working
:21:54. > :21:58.with some of his allies in undermining Isis. The whole thing
:21:59. > :22:02.is... Let me put the question that you put to Alexander to you,
:22:03. > :22:07.Mustapha. What would you like to see is a credible solution, if Assad is
:22:08. > :22:13.overthrown? We will get Isis and various other groups all fighting
:22:14. > :22:16.each other. Of course, there is a possibility, no doubt. But we're not
:22:17. > :22:23.talking about this or that. Are talking about a total crisis, a
:22:24. > :22:28.country is being torn apart. You have half the population outside the
:22:29. > :22:37.country, basically. Either refugee camps or whatever. The regime itself
:22:38. > :22:41.controlling only a few, I handful of urban cities, including the capital,
:22:42. > :22:48.but two thirds of the country is not under the control of the regime. The
:22:49. > :22:57.regime is sustained thereby outside help, talking about the America
:22:58. > :23:00.certainly, you promised -- the Obama administration has not done enough,
:23:01. > :23:07.but everyone understands America is pulling out by this crisis,
:23:08. > :23:14.America's economy is in crisis after Afghanistan and Iraq and is
:23:15. > :23:18.disappointing particularly in Iraq, certainly we fully understand why
:23:19. > :23:24.Obama is reluctant to get into Syria. The question is not to send
:23:25. > :23:29.the troops, curtail Putin. You have so many other means to do that. Not
:23:30. > :23:36.by sending troops to Syria, but through the international arena.
:23:37. > :23:41.First of all, there is no trust between America and Russia for the
:23:42. > :23:47.simple reason that America crossed the line in Ukraine. You do not
:23:48. > :23:53.meddle in countries that border nuclear superpowers to an extent
:23:54. > :23:58.that you impose an anti-Russian regime on its border and bring in
:23:59. > :24:04.Nato troops into the country. This, by the way, is a recipe for World
:24:05. > :24:09.War III. How Obama... How on earth Obama actually decided to do that,
:24:10. > :24:16.this is unbelievable. Russia annexed by... Russia and crime area is an
:24:17. > :24:22.entirely different subject. It would not have happened if there had not
:24:23. > :24:26.been up to in Kiev. The Russian incursion in Ukraine violated an
:24:27. > :24:31.agreement... It happened after an illegal coup which all through a
:24:32. > :24:38.legitimate regime in Kiev, accepted by the EU and the world... We only
:24:39. > :24:41.have two minutes left. That is the connection about the bad feeling.
:24:42. > :24:46.Can we move forward? If it is President Hillary Clinton? We have
:24:47. > :24:51.to wait to see who was going to be... Russia will have to start a
:24:52. > :24:59.new dial-up. With Obama, it is useless, hopeless. With Clinton it
:25:00. > :25:04.would be more difficult, with Donald Trump, easier. I might be mistaken,
:25:05. > :25:07.but at the moment let's wait for the TV debate on Monday which will
:25:08. > :25:12.probably either wipe out Hillary Clinton completely or she might hold
:25:13. > :25:20.on for a while. But there is a chance that we will see the election
:25:21. > :25:22.happening on the 26th. I am wondering if Jeremy Corbyn and
:25:23. > :25:30.Donald Trump will survive your endorsement Act the kiss of death,
:25:31. > :25:33.you mean? I can see it now! It will not be on his advertisement. A
:25:34. > :25:37.former Kremlin adviser says, easier to deal with. We have about 30
:25:38. > :25:40.seconds left. It sounds at the hopeful it'll go game is being
:25:41. > :25:45.played with the lives of your people. Absolutely. There was a
:25:46. > :25:50.shame of the world, no doubt, shame on Russia. On the Obama
:25:51. > :25:59.administration, to let this bloodshed continue. They could have
:26:00. > :26:04.stopped that a long time ago, 2011, 2012, 2013. They had 20 of
:26:05. > :26:06.opportunities for that. We will have to leave it there. That is it for
:26:07. > :26:10.datelined London this week. -- That's it for Dateline
:26:11. > :26:12.London for this week. You can comment on the programme
:26:13. > :26:15.on Twitter @gavinesler, and engage We are back next week
:26:16. > :26:19.at the same time. Please make a date with
:26:20. > :26:21.Dateline London.