:00:24. > :00:32.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:33. > :00:35.Britain will leave the European Union but remain a close ally -
:00:36. > :00:36.according to Prime Minister Theresa May.
:00:37. > :00:38.The battle for Mosul - and for Aleppo.
:00:39. > :00:41.Plus: Donald Trump refuses to say whether he will accept the US
:00:42. > :00:43.presidential election result after his final debate
:00:44. > :00:46.with what he called the "nasty woman."
:00:47. > :00:52.My guests today are: Agnes Poirier of Marianne, Jeffrey Kofman,
:00:53. > :00:54.who is a North American journalist, broadcaster Nesrine Malik,
:00:55. > :00:58.who is a Sudanese writer, and David Aaronovitch of The Times.
:00:59. > :01:01.Britain still wants a close relationship with the European Union
:01:02. > :01:03.after Brexit, according to Theresa May at her first
:01:04. > :01:07.It comes as France plans finally to close the migrant camp at Calais
:01:08. > :01:12.Is the immigration issue at the heart of Brexit?
:01:13. > :01:15.And can it be solved - whatever that might mean -
:01:16. > :01:22.without significant damage to the UK economy?
:01:23. > :01:29.First of all, and all the negotiations going to be conducted
:01:30. > :01:44.in French, as the EU representative seems to think. The answer... The
:01:45. > :01:49.answer is no. Anyway, who could do it? He speaks French? The
:01:50. > :01:58.conversations are going to be hired anyway. Look, as long as article 50
:01:59. > :02:02.is not triggered, we can talk about it for Arras, what we don't know.
:02:03. > :02:11.The answer is we don't know until it's done, and we start, they start
:02:12. > :02:16.negotiating. Nobody really knows. It might go on for a very long time,
:02:17. > :02:22.until March, at least, because Theresa May said that was the time
:02:23. > :02:34.she would push the bottom. So that summit on Thursday, where they said
:02:35. > :02:39.you will get a hard Grexit. And then they said freedom of movement is not
:02:40. > :02:51.only about hedge funds, it's also about citizens. And then wishing
:02:52. > :02:55.somehow Britain wasn't exiting the EU. Then Parliament will get a vote,
:02:56. > :02:59.which is probably the most interesting bit of news. The British
:03:00. > :03:04.Parliament having a role as interesting, but one of the most
:03:05. > :03:21.interesting things is Canada has been scuppered by one lonely
:03:22. > :03:41.refusing to agree the deal. Even if you are a is
:03:42. > :03:54.Remainer, this is difficult. Remainers have to deal with the fact
:03:55. > :03:57.that the EU doesn't quite work and that opponents have to deal with the
:03:58. > :04:05.fact that they still have to deal with the dysfunctional EU. The
:04:06. > :04:13.complaint was that the EU was undemocratic and was dubbed to a
:04:14. > :04:20.billion, but this seems to be over responsive to Perpignan, such as
:04:21. > :04:29.taking notice of the Wallonia, who a lot of people in Britain have never
:04:30. > :04:33.heard of. Wallonia want to protect their cattle industry from the
:04:34. > :04:39.Canadian input and that is stopping the entire deal. So five hundred
:04:40. > :04:45.million people I'd check needed. We should call this what it is, it's a
:04:46. > :04:48.symbol of the way in which some people are reacting against
:04:49. > :04:54.globalisation, in this case Wallonia, but also assessment of
:04:55. > :05:07.people arguing against the trade gales. Hillary Clinton was forced to
:05:08. > :05:11.roll back on that, because of the illusion that if you can stop the
:05:12. > :05:15.Canadians coming in, you can protect you and industries. Actually,
:05:16. > :05:21.although it does point of the difficulty of getting 20 countries
:05:22. > :05:26.to do the same thing, it shows how difficult it would be for Britain to
:05:27. > :05:29.get any kind of trade deal. I was listening to trade Secretary
:05:30. > :05:37.yesterday and said, it shows how right we are to get out. But also
:05:38. > :05:45.seen who will get a good deal. You actually are". The two sides of your
:05:46. > :05:50.bed and not actually connecting. But to answer your original question
:05:51. > :05:56.about immigration, when the company was going, we said that this was
:05:57. > :06:06.basically a plebiscite on immigration. But the Grexit campaign
:06:07. > :06:11.said it was only about protecting business and democracy and
:06:12. > :06:16.sovereignty, but it was a plebiscite on immigration and moreover, it was
:06:17. > :06:22.a plebiscite on all immigration, not just EU immigration, as evidenced by
:06:23. > :06:28.the reaction to all people perceived as immigrants. There has been
:06:29. > :06:35.advising hate crime and racial slurs in general. I think this is legacy
:06:36. > :06:37.of the various strange and contradictory attitude that
:06:38. > :06:42.politicians have had to immigration in Kent, in that they have been
:06:43. > :06:47.either not talking about how valuable immigration isn't there
:06:48. > :06:51.also not been talking about how sometimes immigration in certain
:06:52. > :06:55.areas can be disturbing to the local population. The Villa Park this
:06:56. > :06:59.conspiracy of paralysis on both sides of the debate. People not
:07:00. > :07:04.wanting to talk about the good side thought the Bard or immigration, so
:07:05. > :07:09.loser was a vacuum that it was billed by this Brexit shaped hall.
:07:10. > :07:15.Now it's happened, people will see that the ramifications are not just
:07:16. > :07:27.about immigration. We might even end up in a situation where the pan
:07:28. > :07:32.control immigration. We don't know how the discussions will go, but we
:07:33. > :07:39.know that the leader of movement and the single market are linked and you
:07:40. > :07:52.cannot have both. If, they are saying they want freedom of
:07:53. > :07:56.movement, there is this conversation between deaf people. They keep
:07:57. > :08:07.shouting at each other, but they don't seem to be talking to each
:08:08. > :08:16.other. Then they bring in Calais. All these people there, they hope
:08:17. > :08:20.some of them were want them in advance, but then living to start
:08:21. > :08:23.the process of asylum seekers. But what many people don't know is that
:08:24. > :08:29.even when there are agreements between the UK and Europe that are
:08:30. > :08:33.not even limited, the reason there are migrants in Calais is that there
:08:34. > :08:40.is an agreement between France and UK that this is the last line.
:08:41. > :08:43.Although it's not related to the new general, if there is a bad
:08:44. > :08:53.atmosphere, the fate of time that up and one. There is the mother of all
:08:54. > :08:59.these that will happen in Ireland, which is that in order to maintain a
:09:00. > :09:05.saltwater, you have effectively to put the British border in Dublin and
:09:06. > :09:10.all entrances to Ireland, but islanders are fully signed up member
:09:11. > :09:15.of the European union. I cannot see any process which stops people from
:09:16. > :09:24.going from the EU into Ireland and then going over this border into
:09:25. > :09:29.Belfast. This is a wireless contradiction, which we don't have
:09:30. > :09:35.an answer for. There is no absolute answer to it. That is just something
:09:36. > :09:38.which is absolutely lucrative hours. That's before you get onto the
:09:39. > :09:42.complexity of trade agreements and so on, which infinitely more
:09:43. > :09:58.complex. That's why, when Donald Tusk says, he has that
:09:59. > :10:03.have lost faith in people, he knows they might say now we have had a
:10:04. > :10:09.site of this, we are not sure about it. I haven't entirely lost hope of
:10:10. > :10:13.that either. Where do you think the British Parliament or content of
:10:14. > :10:22.this? For hundreds of years, we have assumed that the government in a
:10:23. > :10:25.non-unwritten constitutional way, that the parliaments is softening in
:10:26. > :10:33.this country, referendums might be important, but they are advisory.
:10:34. > :10:39.The Levin told us one thing only, which is only the EU. It didn't tell
:10:40. > :10:43.us anything about the alternatives and other agreements. So about the
:10:44. > :10:48.offer but what that he is in play and it's got Parliament to decide
:10:49. > :10:51.what the business visionaries. The problem with the cat decided the
:10:52. > :10:54.best conclusion, they can only decide what they want to try for,
:10:55. > :11:00.and then what they will accept, because they are on the other end of
:11:01. > :11:02.a huge complex negotiation with other people, who also have
:11:03. > :11:11.sovereignty over their own decisions. When you look at the Pope
:11:12. > :11:18.and British parliamentary system right now is that the biggest local
:11:19. > :11:22.opposition to Brexit was within Theresa May's own party. The Labour
:11:23. > :11:30.Party is not part of this equation. The official opposition should be in
:11:31. > :11:35.some way of preventing alternatives are challenging the assumptions, but
:11:36. > :11:38.Jeremy Corbyn is so marginalised nuances can support. There will be
:11:39. > :11:44.Labour figures who have an important part of the coalition of scrutiny,
:11:45. > :11:48.but it will come from Jeremy Corbyn. Hillary Benn has now taken the
:11:49. > :11:53.chairmanship of the community. If you're going to be a trade deal
:11:54. > :11:59.between Canada and the EU, do you think? Nobody knows!
:12:00. > :12:02.Iraqi forces - aided by the United States and other allies -
:12:03. > :12:04.have moved to retake the strategically important city of
:12:05. > :12:06.Mosul this week with Islamic State fighters in retreat.
:12:07. > :12:13.Do we expect the result to be more suicide
:12:14. > :12:30.There has definitely been a slow but in the suspicion that of Isis. They
:12:31. > :12:35.have launched a counterattack, but on the whole, we can agree that Isis
:12:36. > :12:41.is beginning to lose some influence. But when people think that Isis is
:12:42. > :12:45.beginning to treat on a practical level, that doesn't actually mean
:12:46. > :12:54.Isis needs territory to be Isis. The power of Isis and how it had landed
:12:55. > :12:56.internationally is that it is an ideology, non-negotiator Paul,
:12:57. > :13:04.intransigence in general. I think that on the ground, it will be a
:13:05. > :13:08.mercy not to have Isis in power in Iraq and hopefully in Syria as well.
:13:09. > :13:13.But I don't think that means that Isis the idea is on the way at all.
:13:14. > :13:22.Weather that leaves more suicide bombings, more terror attacks or an
:13:23. > :13:29.intensifying of the ideological war, because that is a possibility. The
:13:30. > :13:32.challenge to Isis as an idea has to come from Muslim communities
:13:33. > :13:38.themselves. There's no point in people from outside the Islamic
:13:39. > :13:43.world challenging it ideological. I think within the Arab world, is the
:13:44. > :13:47.complete consensus that Isis the complete abomination and people are
:13:48. > :13:54.fighting against Isis to deliver and ideological. Then there is not an
:13:55. > :14:01.Muslim Brotherhood, it's not a political party that came out in
:14:02. > :14:06.decades of systematic, coherent, political and ideological
:14:07. > :14:10.oppression. It's an anathema. It is an aggregate sure that arose now
:14:11. > :14:17.would sleep dysfunction and nationalistic failure across several
:14:18. > :14:22.countries. Opportunistically. So in the way that the Muslim Brotherhood
:14:23. > :14:25.has now been undermined systematically across North Africa,
:14:26. > :14:30.because the reasons for its existence have also changed, I don't
:14:31. > :14:35.think Isis can be dealt with one coherent push. I agree with what
:14:36. > :14:42.your saying, but I think that Isis can you described the Colts, and I
:14:43. > :14:47.it's the Colts, I saw this in Libya when I covered the form of Colonel
:14:48. > :14:52.Gaddafi, hopelessness, the despair, the drift of the Next Generation,
:14:53. > :15:00.the youth in the regions, allows them to be vulnerable. In the two
:15:01. > :15:03.groups the engagement, prosperity in the future. So the vulnerable to
:15:04. > :15:11.this kind of extremism, which is least gives them a sense, the false
:15:12. > :15:15.sense of place. I think that way you look at the solution, I know I
:15:16. > :15:20.remember when I was in Libya, speaking to a very intelligent
:15:21. > :15:26.Libyan, who had come back to work with the billions in rebuilding the
:15:27. > :15:31.country. I said to her, if he had a pile of money, but we can build?
:15:32. > :15:36.They said, I would build youth centres, sports centres and Johann
:15:37. > :15:41.to have positive outlets. This is the problem. There is no beer,
:15:42. > :15:46.business structure. The only talk about depleting Isis, it's fine to
:15:47. > :15:50.talk about the military we can all take comfort in that. But in the
:15:51. > :15:56.longer term, and to give people the opportunity. It also strikes me that
:15:57. > :16:00.in order to have an intimate and defeat them to ideological, who this
:16:01. > :16:05.night campaign and that has been lacking in western involvement in
:16:06. > :16:23.the region. Exactly. And look at the battles on the ground, those who are
:16:24. > :16:28.fighting Isis, it looks as if President Obama and the US
:16:29. > :16:42.administration has even sillier to our third and Putin and go straight
:16:43. > :16:52.in on Iraq. -- including Syria to President Assad and Vladimir Putin.
:16:53. > :16:57.In the terrorist attack on baggage the Baghdad, where 300 people
:16:58. > :17:03.killed. I fear I have a wave of suicide bombings in there. This is
:17:04. > :17:07.where you have a problem overhangs, it is foreign policy, but it's also
:17:08. > :17:12.something is happening and this is exactly what you're talking about,
:17:13. > :17:22.and ideology. It's not on the ground, it's not the military
:17:23. > :17:27.context that the defeat Daesh. There is however an alternative that is
:17:28. > :17:33.still in place in Europe. The car into the slightly different tack, I
:17:34. > :17:37.think that because one of Isis was a key selling points is that it has
:17:38. > :17:45.territory, I think the wrath of that territory is support for Jihad and
:17:46. > :17:50.probably he to anticipate the other forms of jihadist. Although the
:17:51. > :17:54.consequences are likely to be the scene, which is that the two groups
:17:55. > :18:01.of terrorists attempting to do bad things in Europe and Iraq. But for
:18:02. > :18:08.the longer term, imaginatively to a city the size of the form, let's
:18:09. > :18:12.say, then most extreme form of the provisional IRA could conceivably
:18:13. > :18:21.imagine, it has been there 15 years, running out of the left of the
:18:22. > :18:25.schools, destroying the lead and the people that live. I did has to be
:18:26. > :18:28.done in such a move, this rebuilding of this enormous city and area
:18:29. > :18:31.inadvertently that live. I did have to be done in such a way, this
:18:32. > :18:33.rebuilding of this enormous city and earlier inadvertently let it doesn't
:18:34. > :18:35.replicate the problem is the government in Iraq had partly be
:18:36. > :18:37.responsible for before, with the alienation of the populations and so
:18:38. > :18:42.on, and immensely complicated job, so that has to be done as well,
:18:43. > :18:46.actively rebuilding is important and even then it leads to the question
:18:47. > :18:54.of Daesh in the one and the difficulties there. This will impact
:18:55. > :18:59.on the subject a little if we are going to talk about the American
:19:00. > :19:07.presidential election, which is that American policy here becomes pretty
:19:08. > :19:12.significant, not totally decisive, but pretty significant. Are those
:19:13. > :19:13.policies could be continued probably change? Let's move on.
:19:14. > :19:16.Donald Trump spoke of deporting "bad hombres" from the United States
:19:17. > :19:18.and characterised Hillary Clinton as a nasty woman for suggesting
:19:19. > :19:21.that he might continue to avoid paying taxes in future.
:19:22. > :19:24.But the main headline from the third and final US presidential debate
:19:25. > :19:27.was simply that Mr Trump refused to say that he will definitely
:19:28. > :19:28.accept the election result in November.
:19:29. > :19:41.I'm tempted to ask that, but in truth we have been talking about the
:19:42. > :19:46.issues the experimenting with these, one way or another, those who almost
:19:47. > :19:50.as if this would be selling another world, talking about beauty
:19:51. > :19:56.pageants. It is absolutely despairing of the available to watch
:19:57. > :20:01.this, but I could say it's always dangerous when movies words will
:20:02. > :20:07.come back to haunt you. But barring some unforeseen surprise, better
:20:08. > :20:13.late than never. The pays the Hillary Clinton is going to win it.
:20:14. > :20:18.So that is clear, value for a surprise. What's not clear if what
:20:19. > :20:30.happens within discontented Donald Trump supporters. He said the
:20:31. > :20:34.election might be leaked. This undermines American democracy, the
:20:35. > :20:41.sanctity of the front. Pointing. This man is really, really evil. He
:20:42. > :20:45.has no respect for democracy, no interest in understanding it. Who
:20:46. > :20:52.has shown his instinct to be a demagogue and a dictator and they
:20:53. > :20:55.can do serious damage. If he loses. If, in Japan. If Clinton hated, I
:20:56. > :21:02.watched the third debate and if you watch it, not knowing any back
:21:03. > :21:06.through the these people, she put it so brilliantly. She spoke about the
:21:07. > :21:11.issues, she was not fazed, she was not knackered, the statistical
:21:12. > :21:14.undermined him in the group phase, a great thing for people who have to
:21:15. > :21:18.deal with Putin and others. He looked like 15-year-old boys who
:21:19. > :21:21.hadn't done his homework. He couldn't talk about anything
:21:22. > :21:31.substantive serious thought to personal attacks. Hillary Clinton's
:21:32. > :21:38.biggest challenge is to try to increase, to open and extend her
:21:39. > :21:42.boots and broaden her support. He wrote an interesting comment in the
:21:43. > :21:45.cup at times this week about the narrative of Brexit and comp
:21:46. > :21:50.supporters left behind anti-the challenge that. There will be
:21:51. > :21:54.tempted to the people who vote with Donald Trump and they might think
:21:55. > :21:59.the election was raped and losers. Absolutely. One of the biggest
:22:00. > :22:04.problem is that that President Clinton will face, not least of all
:22:05. > :22:08.the fact that none of us have had a discussion about the problems they
:22:09. > :22:14.face because we have been talking about Donald Trump, is the Trap
:22:15. > :22:20.supporters. That section of America, it has been revealed to us through
:22:21. > :22:24.the Donald Trump candidacy, which is prepared to support the move is
:22:25. > :22:31.unlikely, his purposes of person in order if you like to put two fingers
:22:32. > :22:34.up to her sister, but for one reason or another, Google does not
:22:35. > :22:38.represent them or they don't bite. What this time to see is that if you
:22:39. > :22:44.look at the figures, it's not a factor of being left behind, this is
:22:45. > :22:47.not a factor of just rust belt Americans paid foreign competition
:22:48. > :22:55.has left behind. This is a much bigger complicity of the collapse of
:22:56. > :23:01.a belief in what Hitler represented for a significant proportion of its
:23:02. > :23:09.white and male population. This new list the distinction between black
:23:10. > :23:13.and the two processes ( and women voters. It's almost collapsed
:23:14. > :23:17.between the sections of the population and it's evident in other
:23:18. > :23:22.parts of Europe. And how to deal with it is a very problem. The
:23:23. > :23:32.combat it, which seems little more support? Do they confront it, in
:23:33. > :23:42.which case they are in the battlements. The people have to deal
:23:43. > :23:51.with it, they politely, that is, is actually a bleeding edge 's effort,
:23:52. > :23:59.the this in the report added regard as the Enlightenment. He would say
:24:00. > :24:04.that, mainstream media. The interesting thing is, one of the
:24:05. > :24:09.people in this week, Donald Trump is almost like the line so. People
:24:10. > :24:13.write articles and then clothes come and attack the person will have
:24:14. > :24:18.gender and race. So the content of the article is never addressed.
:24:19. > :24:24.Donald Trump has managed to completely ignore criticism away
:24:25. > :24:30.from Hillary from any reasonable sources, because people are
:24:31. > :24:38.obsessed. I haven't heard people at any criticism of him relief that was
:24:39. > :24:42.mainstream for Donald Trump please please candidacy. Now criticism you
:24:43. > :24:48.could reasonably and legitimately look at, so if I were you, who has
:24:49. > :24:50.helped them after playing along with people who would have been undecided
:24:51. > :24:57.between the two, because there courts were not given a fair and
:24:58. > :25:03.unbiased bleeding. There has been an undermining of the
:25:04. > :25:16.very idea of America. An idea of exists. The George Bush being
:25:17. > :25:24.respect the Hillary Clinton, say, I wish you well. Let's protect
:25:25. > :25:30.herself, November nine, three a.m.. Now, she has one. Fine. And I can
:25:31. > :25:36.see Donald Trump Clevedon, I'm not accepting this result. Even in her
:25:37. > :25:43.life that happens? Paper-thin 1860. I look what happened after that!
:25:44. > :25:50.When the Confederate leaders refuse the election of Lincoln. So here
:25:51. > :25:54.goes War, the idea of civil war. It happens all the time the Arab
:25:55. > :25:57.world and the West was out of people to respect and accept the results of
:25:58. > :25:59.election. We'll have to leave it there.
:26:00. > :26:01.That's it for Dateline London for this week -
:26:02. > :26:03.we're back next week at the same time.
:26:04. > :26:05.You can of course comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler.
:26:06. > :26:35.I think we've got some reasonable weather to look
:26:36. > :26:40.We will start with a bit of mist and fog to contend
:26:41. > :26:44.We had about this morning and also for tomorrow morning.