:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:27.Does it matter if the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom says different
:00:28. > :00:30.things about Brexit publicly from those she said privately
:00:31. > :00:35.NATO reinforces its northern flank, how much of a threat is Russia?
:00:36. > :00:38.And the days before the US presidential election the FBI
:00:39. > :00:41.says it is to look again at Hillary Clinton's emails,
:00:42. > :00:45.My guests today are Alexander Nekrassov who is a Russian
:00:46. > :00:48.journalist and former Kremlin adviser, Maria Margaronis
:00:49. > :00:52.of The Nation, Michael Goldfarb who is an American journalist
:00:53. > :01:06.and commentator and Alex Deane who is a Conservative Commentator.
:01:07. > :01:23.The Guardian obtained a copy of the speech the premise to give to a
:01:24. > :01:26.group of Goldman Sachs executives. In his speech, she talked of some of
:01:27. > :01:29.the horrors ahead of Britain if we voted to leave the European Union.
:01:30. > :01:34.Now, as promised, she is clear that lever we must. Does it matter what
:01:35. > :01:38.she once said when what matters now is what she does? I don't accept the
:01:39. > :01:41.premise. She was repeating the mainstream position of the remaining
:01:42. > :01:43.campaign. Of course, facts have changed. People have changed their
:01:44. > :01:46.beliefs. The Treasury to this we would be plunged into immediate
:01:47. > :01:49.recession, we have not. The Chancellor said he would lose
:01:50. > :01:51.500,000 jobs, we have not. The suggestion that things were
:01:52. > :01:55.immediately going to turn for the worst was part of the Goldman Sachs
:01:56. > :02:00.speech. That was part of what everyone in government was saying.
:02:01. > :02:05.Theresa May was a remain campaigner, not an enthusiastic one, but that
:02:06. > :02:08.was her position. What she said in private was consistent with her
:02:09. > :02:12.public position. The Guardian think they have a good story, I don't see
:02:13. > :02:18.the point. The leaf campaign said there would be ?350 million going to
:02:19. > :02:22.the NHS. Was the whole campaign based on people saying things that
:02:23. > :02:30.weren't true. We are still in the European Union. He actually think it
:02:31. > :02:35.will go to the NHS? I wouldn't have used that figure if it was up to me.
:02:36. > :02:38.The point is that that is our contribution and it is up to us how
:02:39. > :02:44.we spend it. We will reclaim that contribution. We can do what we like
:02:45. > :02:48.that. It might go to the NHS, I don't know. It will be up to us. Our
:02:49. > :02:52.now Prime Minister expressed views in the course of the campaign that
:02:53. > :03:00.we should not leave the European Union, why is that a surprise? That
:03:01. > :03:05.was her position. Does it matter? I have in agreement with Alex. Then we
:03:06. > :03:10.shifted the question around to claim and counterclaim. We should have a
:03:11. > :03:20.moratorium on punditry until article 50 is with invoked. I agree, she
:03:21. > :03:26.said what the remainder position within the Cabinet was. We get
:03:27. > :03:31.excited about it because she's headed to a group at Goldman Sachs.
:03:32. > :03:34.We have spent this campaign wondering what Hillary Clinton is
:03:35. > :03:40.said to Goldman Sachs bankers when she was giving talks. There is this
:03:41. > :03:46.thing about Goldman Sachs. It doesn't seem odd to me. What I would
:03:47. > :03:50.like to know, it always seemed to me that you couldn't rise to the top of
:03:51. > :03:56.the Conservative Party unless you were, somewhere in your soul,
:03:57. > :04:01.Eurosceptic, even if you read David Cameron or Theresa May or George
:04:02. > :04:05.Osborne. The big beasts like Ken Clarke and Chris Patten, no longer
:04:06. > :04:10.have a constituency within the party. You have to be able to nod
:04:11. > :04:18.and wink to the Eurosceptic wing in the party that deep down inside I am
:04:19. > :04:26.with you. Theresa May's shift to her current position doesn't seem to be
:04:27. > :04:33.a very big step really. Theresa May has always been an eurosceptic. She
:04:34. > :04:40.was always saying it is better to stay in, not that she supported the
:04:41. > :04:44.EU, that is not an inspiring rallying g-force of very few people
:04:45. > :04:49.love the EU. The campaign was based on it isn't very good, but we should
:04:50. > :04:55.stay in any way. It comes in the week when we have heard that Nissan
:04:56. > :05:00.are delighted to stay in the UK and we don't know why and they said is
:05:01. > :05:03.no money involved but Vince Cable who was in government says that
:05:04. > :05:07.there must have been some promise of a sting in the customs union, which
:05:08. > :05:15.is why, at the point is still relevant. First of all, the whole
:05:16. > :05:19.campaign was fought on a mystery. We have no idea what it will mean to
:05:20. > :05:22.leave the EU and we can't know until it is negotiated and there is a
:05:23. > :05:27.fantasy gone on in Westminster that Britain is in control of this
:05:28. > :05:32.because there are the other European states as well. The Nissan question
:05:33. > :05:34.is important because if undercover promises are being made to
:05:35. > :05:39.corporations about what may or may not happen, we should know about it.
:05:40. > :05:44.No body is shocked people say one thing to bankers and another in
:05:45. > :05:49.public. She remained very quiet during the campaign. She was clearly
:05:50. > :05:55.positioning herself to be a possible future Prime Minister and it worked.
:05:56. > :05:58.Does it matter what the premise to actually thinks? Is she just a front
:05:59. > :06:03.for the party or do we need to know what she believes? I think it is
:06:04. > :06:10.very important to know what she thinks in private. It is quite naive
:06:11. > :06:17.to say that she said that because Cameron also said that. I am sorry,
:06:18. > :06:21.first of all, my opinion is from outside and she has no idea what to
:06:22. > :06:26.do with the Brexit. Absolutely. There is a total division in the
:06:27. > :06:32.government. They are struggling to present the case to certain sections
:06:33. > :06:37.of the public because they don't know what to say. The whole point
:06:38. > :06:44.was that the referendum clearly said we want out. The Article 50 should
:06:45. > :06:49.have been triggered at once. Once she became Prime Minister, appointed
:06:50. > :06:53.promised by the way, her duty was not to say Brexit is Brexit start
:06:54. > :06:57.going into some sort of initiatives like grammar schools and other
:06:58. > :07:03.things. Her job was to deliver Brexit. Brexit needed to come at
:07:04. > :07:10.once because once you trigger article 15 then you have to do
:07:11. > :07:13.things. Now they don't do anything. Do you agree? The other view is you
:07:14. > :07:16.can't do it immediately because we need to think this through and it
:07:17. > :07:22.has not been thought through in terms of the practicalities. I don't
:07:23. > :07:27.think Theresa May said those things because David Cameron said, I think
:07:28. > :07:30.she said because she believes them. She still believes we would be
:07:31. > :07:34.better off in the European Union. If you were looking for somebody to
:07:35. > :07:41.guide us out of the EU in a calm, measured, orderly fashion from the
:07:42. > :07:45.pool of talent in parliament, you would fix -- pic Theresa May. I feel
:07:46. > :07:51.more comfortable with her at the helm. The turning point for me is
:07:52. > :07:55.less important than the direction of travel and research and teaching
:07:56. > :07:59.gives is that it will happen. Do you think it is relevant to consider
:08:00. > :08:02.what is keeping Nissan here and whether there are any other dealers
:08:03. > :08:06.and other businesses will want to know because if there is a pot of
:08:07. > :08:10.money, they will want a bit of that, if there is not that will want to
:08:11. > :08:15.know what is the incentive if they foresee problems about Sting in
:08:16. > :08:18.Britain outside the EU? Businesses have already made huge investments
:08:19. > :08:22.to be here. You don't have to convince somebody hard to do what
:08:23. > :08:30.they already want today. It would involve huge amounts of and money to
:08:31. > :08:33.relocate existing businesses from here to another market, often the
:08:34. > :08:39.other market is less attractive for cultural and corporate reasons. I
:08:40. > :08:43.don't know each individual would set between the government and Nissan,
:08:44. > :08:47.but I suspect the government didn't have the hold down the Great Danes.
:08:48. > :08:53.We note Nissan have already said they could move to France. They said
:08:54. > :09:02.they would do that when we didn't join the EU. There is a factory
:09:03. > :09:07.which has a long lead in time for products. If you were going to exit
:09:08. > :09:15.you wouldn't commission new vehicles at that property. The fact they are
:09:16. > :09:22.committed to the premises... If there is some kind of tariff, if the
:09:23. > :09:25.sales of Nissan cars are registered in Switzerland for tax purposes,
:09:26. > :09:32.there is all sorts of things going on in terms of tax. There is a long
:09:33. > :09:35.tradition in this country as deindustrialisation has wiped out
:09:36. > :09:39.communities in Wales in the north-east of England, of
:09:40. > :09:44.governments of both parties dipping into their pockets to find
:09:45. > :09:47.incentives to keep steel manufacturing here and some amount
:09:48. > :09:54.of carbon manufacturing. What will happen when Jag wire and Rover say
:09:55. > :10:04.we want the same deal as Nissan. Do you know of any promise? We know of
:10:05. > :10:08.nothing. Europe is in trouble and to say that banks would move their
:10:09. > :10:15.headquarters to Europe where the Eurozone is sinking, where it is
:10:16. > :10:20.protected by a cushion of 100 billion euros is created every
:10:21. > :10:34.month. No bank in its right mind will move to Europe. No big company
:10:35. > :10:43.will move to Europe the sub a final word because maybe she should wait
:10:44. > :10:47.for article 50. We are making more powers in this country than we ever
:10:48. > :10:51.have. When we make more and export more, we tend to make and export
:10:52. > :10:55.very good smart cards and by large ones. That is to the advantage of
:10:56. > :11:01.several manufacturers. It is likely they will get a deal on cars and
:11:02. > :11:04.several other things. As we have discussed, relations between Nato
:11:05. > :11:09.and Russia have gone from bad to worse after events in Ukraine. Nato
:11:10. > :11:14.is continuing to reinforce on the Baltic in that protecting countries
:11:15. > :11:21.that were former part of the USSR or under Warsaw Pact controlled. Where
:11:22. > :11:27.is this leading? What is the meaning of life? Firstly, I find this
:11:28. > :11:31.situation bizarre, to be honest. To portray Russia as an aggressor and
:11:32. > :11:37.that wants to invade the Baltics, even Poland has now mentioned it, to
:11:38. > :11:42.create this illusion that the Russian military build-up is posing
:11:43. > :11:48.a danger to the world, I would like to remind everyone here at that the
:11:49. > :11:51.Russian military budget is about 180 billion a year, where's the American
:11:52. > :11:59.budget is about $1 trillion every year. You are saying to me that
:12:00. > :12:07.Russia is posing a danger when its budget is probably, I can't even
:12:08. > :12:13.compare it. People in eastern Europe take a different view. This whole
:12:14. > :12:21.issue was basically created out of nothing. The whole issue was created
:12:22. > :12:27.after the Ukrainian crazes which, by the way, conveniently is counted not
:12:28. > :12:36.from the armed coup in Kiev, but from the events which took place
:12:37. > :12:41.after that. There was a coup in Kiev which overthrew an elected
:12:42. > :12:47.government. Why are you still there now? When this happens,
:12:48. > :12:51.repercussions started. That would never have been a referendum in the
:12:52. > :12:58.Crimea if there hadn't been a military coup in Kiev. You must
:12:59. > :13:02.always counted from the specific point of history. You cannot just
:13:03. > :13:08.take out a bit and say we don't like this one. Why are the troops still
:13:09. > :13:14.there now now that your so-called coup isn't happening? The coup has
:13:15. > :13:17.happened, a hostile government is in place in Kiev which is threatening
:13:18. > :13:25.the eastern parts and Russian people. Do you honestly believe
:13:26. > :13:29.that? To save Russia has invaded Ukraine, I can say to you that
:13:30. > :13:41.Britain has invaded Gibraltar again to protected from Spain. This is
:13:42. > :13:47.absurd. Just moving on from Ukraine because we are not going to agree on
:13:48. > :13:53.this one. I think Nato is not taking this seriously. If you think about
:13:54. > :13:57.the 300,000 Russian troops and the Dogra station 4000 troops. The real
:13:58. > :14:04.issue for me is Syria. What on earth can anybody do to stop Russia
:14:05. > :14:14.supporting and bombing hospitals and schools. He should not talk like
:14:15. > :14:24.that. What do we do about the US led coalition bombing civilians in
:14:25. > :14:29.Mosul. One at a time. There is no real comparison between the very
:14:30. > :14:37.slow, probably too slow and methodical, together of mostly Iraqi
:14:38. > :14:41.and Kurdish forces to try to force Islamic State out of Mosul and what
:14:42. > :14:50.is happening in eastern Alaba. There is simply no intellectual or moral
:14:51. > :14:57.comparison that you can make. There is no chlorine bombs being dropped,
:14:58. > :15:00.barrel bombs being dropped. We should stop this propaganda.
:15:01. > :15:04.Chlorine is used by the rebels most of the time. It has been proven
:15:05. > :15:14.already. You cannot just continue to invent those facts. You are not the,
:15:15. > :15:20.I have been in Mosul, I have not been in Alaba. I can say that the
:15:21. > :15:23.independent NGOs that monitored this sort of thing have to have the space
:15:24. > :15:30.between us where we can say if they said it is true. Not what the
:15:31. > :15:33.Russian government says. It is reported and we have to accept this
:15:34. > :15:40.otherwise we cannot have any conversations on this. You never
:15:41. > :15:46.listen to the other NGOs. We have eastern Alaba which is supposedly
:15:47. > :15:50.suffering, which it is, let me finish, there is western Lebanon
:15:51. > :15:54.where children are killed every day, that you don't know, but you don't
:15:55. > :16:03.want to see. Work involves two sides. Thanks to the glories of the
:16:04. > :16:09.internet and Twitter and drones, the is plenty of video that hovers over
:16:10. > :16:13.both sides of the city. We have satellite images coursing through
:16:14. > :16:21.Facebook and Twitter where many journalists... Eight lot of them are
:16:22. > :16:27.fakes. It is a conspiracy theory. It is not a conspiracy theory. In Libya
:16:28. > :16:31.this was a fake footage used all the time, now we know how it is done.
:16:32. > :16:39.You cannot just tell me that there is no fake footage. The fact is,
:16:40. > :16:47.would you agree that Russian forces are bombing Alaba at this time? No,
:16:48. > :16:55.they are fighting terrorists. Let's move on. The frightening thing is
:16:56. > :17:01.here by the denials. This is like what the Iraqi regime said, but this
:17:02. > :17:05.is a nuclear power. With days before the US presidential election, the
:17:06. > :17:11.FBI is to reopen an enquiry into Hillary Clinton's e-mails. Is it the
:17:12. > :17:15.biggest thing since Watergate as Donald Trump says? It was a
:17:16. > :17:21.bombshell dropped on a Friday evening. The one thing we have found
:17:22. > :17:26.out over the last 18 hours is that these e-mails came from Anthony
:17:27. > :17:33.Wheeler, the disgraced former congressman from New York who is
:17:34. > :17:40.married to Hillary Clinton's top aide. Sometimes referred to as
:17:41. > :17:49.Hillary Clinton's brain, or her hard drive. What seems to have happened
:17:50. > :17:56.is they were married and the wife sometimes used the family computer.
:17:57. > :18:01.This is getting to the heart of what is seen as dodgy Hillary. What is
:18:02. > :18:04.she doing sending e-mails only private server? That is the
:18:05. > :18:10.allegation and we don't know what the e-mails contain. That is great.
:18:11. > :18:15.I don't think she is a good candidate and you wait. It just
:18:16. > :18:19.demonstrates a propensity for prayer judgment. I don't think it is the
:18:20. > :18:23.same kind of scandal as her own behaviour. It is the act of someone
:18:24. > :18:27.at next year and it is on a much smaller scale. You might question
:18:28. > :18:31.the judgment in being married to Anthony Wiener, that alone in using
:18:32. > :18:35.the computer. I don't think is an issue it is as significant as
:18:36. > :18:42.Hillary's own fast misuse of technology. The bad thing for her is
:18:43. > :18:49.timing. It right now. It is odd the FBI decided yesterday to do it. Ten
:18:50. > :18:54.days to go? Are you accusing the FBI of many leading the electoral cycle?
:18:55. > :18:57.I don't see evidence to support that. In the course of another
:18:58. > :19:01.investigation they discovered material that I am sure they would
:19:02. > :19:11.rather not have to deal with. This brings the FBI into a grid and
:19:12. > :19:17.difficult political spotlight. What we are all missing here is that we
:19:18. > :19:21.are trying to portray this election as if Hillary Clinton is the
:19:22. > :19:29.candidate of Wall Street, Goldman Sachs and all that. There is Donald
:19:30. > :19:34.Trump he is basically all by himself. A billionaire, using his
:19:35. > :19:38.own money. There are two powerful forces fighting with each other.
:19:39. > :19:44.There are vested interest groups who have the money, the muscle and so on
:19:45. > :19:52.behind each candidate. If you tell me that, for example, strange things
:19:53. > :19:58.are happening around the campaign and accusations of Russia being
:19:59. > :20:01.involved in manipulative in the presidential campaign, of course
:20:02. > :20:05.there are powerful groups behind this. That does not happen by
:20:06. > :20:11.chance. It just doesn't work like that. I have been a spin doctor
:20:12. > :20:17.myself, I know how this works. Information is fed into the system
:20:18. > :20:25.and it starts to unravel. My humble opinion is that pressure was put on
:20:26. > :20:35.the FBI. It is obvious. Ten days before an election. By whom? That is
:20:36. > :20:42.what I said, vested interest groups. And FBI director comes out ten days
:20:43. > :20:48.before the election and says we have some evidence, I cannot tell you
:20:49. > :20:57.what it is, but... He hasn't seen it. He implies it is so damaging for
:20:58. > :21:01.Hillary, this is electioneering. I am not a huge fan of Hillary
:21:02. > :21:04.Clinton. I don't think she is a good candidate, I don't think she is a
:21:05. > :21:10.crypto. I am not sure where these e-mails were police now. It smells
:21:11. > :21:15.political to me. It certainly smells political. What worries me is what
:21:16. > :21:18.happens after Hillary is elected, because I don't think it will put
:21:19. > :21:21.Trump in the White House. There is a broad stream in the Republican party
:21:22. > :21:26.he just think the Democrats do not have the right to be in power.
:21:27. > :21:30.Whichever candidate is elected they will face investigations. Donald
:21:31. > :21:35.Trump this a lawsuit over Trump University and there are other
:21:36. > :21:41.charges. Hillary Clinton faces a different set of charges. Some
:21:42. > :21:48.candidates edge presidents have ended in scandal, but this president
:21:49. > :21:52.will start in scandal. Donald Trump is being investigated within the
:21:53. > :21:59.legal system. Even yesterday and the day before, there were plenty of
:22:00. > :22:05.Republicans who were standing up and just insisting before this FBI
:22:06. > :22:09.e-mails that they would just immediately began investigating
:22:10. > :22:14.Hillary. The idea is to tie her down. The House of Representatives
:22:15. > :22:19.will likely stay in the hands of the Republicans. Going back to 1994 the
:22:20. > :22:23.way that the Republicans, when they have a majority in the house, deep
:22:24. > :22:31.with a Democratic president is to bury them in paper. These are
:22:32. > :22:35.processors of Congress. Democrats fitted with Reagan toward the end of
:22:36. > :22:40.his presidency. It is slightly different but... The idea of
:22:41. > :22:46.criminalising political differences is not just one party in America.
:22:47. > :22:51.The extent to which it takes over from governance, it has been
:22:52. > :22:58.excellent potential over the last four democratic terms of office. To
:22:59. > :23:03.Clinton presidencies and to Obama presidency is. I agree with Maria. I
:23:04. > :23:08.have a feeling that in the long run this would change the outcome of the
:23:09. > :23:14.election much. It might increase Donald Trump's vote, but libertarian
:23:15. > :23:21.voters were coming back to him anyway and I am not sure about it.
:23:22. > :23:24.Either candidate elected as the president of the United States is
:23:25. > :23:32.going to begin office with some kind of cloud. This is a uniquely bad
:23:33. > :23:35.offering. I don't know how they got to the point where these are the two
:23:36. > :23:42.candidates. They are both very lucky in the opponents that they face.
:23:43. > :23:50.They are so lucky to have such bad opponents. Two we actually have
:23:51. > :23:56.agreement around that? I think it is a game changer. I saw the jaws drop
:23:57. > :24:01.on CNN when the breaking news came. They were just hitting the floor.
:24:02. > :24:14.Was that because they were wondering what the FBI is up to? Why is this a
:24:15. > :24:18.game changer? When the FBI comes up with accusations about a candidate
:24:19. > :24:23.in 11 days before the election and you are telling me that this doesn't
:24:24. > :24:33.work, this will not influence it, this is the real world. In the real
:24:34. > :24:37.world... There's no detail. There is some detail. We know it is alleged
:24:38. > :24:41.that someone close to Clinton who had access to sensitive information
:24:42. > :24:46.used a system which was not secure. Anthony Wiener was using it at the
:24:47. > :24:54.same time. She disseminated material in part. The timing is dreadful
:24:55. > :24:59.Frecklington. I am not sure it is a game changer but it is not positive.
:25:00. > :25:05.More than 10% of the population have voted already. The trends are well
:25:06. > :25:20.set and he will get 43 144% of the board, she will get 46 or 47. Will
:25:21. > :25:26.win. -- 43 or 44%. That is it for this week. You can interact to
:25:27. > :25:37.complain about our guests online. We are back next week.