:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:26.Britain, Brexit and having your cake and eating it.
:00:27. > :00:28.Whether divisions in the quality of our schools contribute
:00:29. > :00:31.to political divisions including Brexit.
:00:32. > :00:33.And, hail to the chief - but has the impending Trump
:00:34. > :00:36.presidency given permission for some to use sexist, misogynistic,
:00:37. > :00:44.My guests today are Nesrine Malik, who is a Sudanese writer,
:00:45. > :00:47.Michael Goldfarb of politico.com, Rashmee Lall of The National
:00:48. > :00:49.and Michael Gove who is a Conservative MP and columnist
:00:50. > :01:02.Brexit first, and such is the thirst for any clues about what it might
:01:03. > :01:05.mean that handwritten notes photographed in the hands of some
:01:06. > :01:08.hapless political aide were treated this week as the Rosetta Stone,
:01:09. > :01:09.a guide to the government's negotiations.
:01:10. > :01:12.Have your cake and eat it, it said, but whose cake?
:01:13. > :01:15.And how much does the public, press and parliament really need
:01:16. > :01:18.to know about the road to Brexit when formal negotiations
:01:19. > :01:30.As a journalist, this is the biggest story around in Britain and as you
:01:31. > :01:36.were in government you know governments need to keep their cards
:01:37. > :01:41.close to their chest. I'm a ferocious to find out what's going
:01:42. > :01:45.on, but speaking as someone who was in government I know it's quite
:01:46. > :01:52.right to play your cards close to your chest. Into that divide is a
:01:53. > :01:58.furious speculation. What we saw this week whether scribbled notes of
:01:59. > :02:04.a researcher and that might affect some of her own thoughts or what was
:02:05. > :02:08.asked. It was not an authorised government document, just a series
:02:09. > :02:12.of marginalised notes from an edge visual court in the crossfire and it
:02:13. > :02:16.would be wrong to overinterpret what was written as though it were the
:02:17. > :02:26.Rosetta stone unlocking the key to Brexit. Nature a pause back you and
:02:27. > :02:32.journalists hate it. Nature hates a vacuum. Boris Johnson says freedom
:02:33. > :02:37.of movement might not be such a bad thing and other things that don't
:02:38. > :02:40.add up. Either you've got your cards close to your chest or it's a
:02:41. > :02:46.shambles is the pressure from outside. Theresa May has a desire
:02:47. > :02:52.not to be driven by daily commentary or a weekly lot of public opinion.
:02:53. > :02:58.The press will fill the vacuum but in terms of the events that will
:02:59. > :03:04.deter -- determine what goes on than all the rest is froth. How did you
:03:05. > :03:09.go to the country and ask for something you had no plan for if you
:03:10. > :03:13.won? I have a plan and Theresa May has a plan and I suspect they are
:03:14. > :03:21.similar. But what is it? We've had months and months since the boat.
:03:22. > :03:30.Even people who were foursquare for Brexit working on stalls in Essex 12
:03:31. > :03:35.nope... You had no plan! The spirit with which we move out of the UN and
:03:36. > :03:39.I agree people want us to get on with it and then there's the nature
:03:40. > :03:48.of the plan. Theresa may has been clear... Brexit means wrecks it. The
:03:49. > :03:54.speed and pays with which article 50 will be triggered... It's very
:03:55. > :04:00.interesting that in the age of information overload we are caught
:04:01. > :04:06.between a truism, Brexit, and a proverb, have your cake and eat it,
:04:07. > :04:11.but basically spells out the limits of the possible or the impossible.
:04:12. > :04:15.That is supposed to be a viable government strategy to allow Britain
:04:16. > :04:20.to exit the EU with dignity, and some market access? There are two
:04:21. > :04:27.issues. One is the question that people voted on, whether to stay in
:04:28. > :04:31.or out, was not a technical question. Therefore, there was no
:04:32. > :04:41.technical blueprint. You can't have that in a referendum, can you?
:04:42. > :04:45.Broadly it is, is it right or wrong. But it puts people in a difficult
:04:46. > :04:50.position because they're in the position of working at the detail
:04:51. > :04:54.afterwards so I have some sympathy for people who were pro-Brexit but
:04:55. > :04:57.don't have a plan because it is a hugely technical question and people
:04:58. > :05:02.were asked to vote on the premise rather than the detail. So I have
:05:03. > :05:07.sympathy for the people who are still working it out. However, it
:05:08. > :05:12.has been some time and it is not beyond the ability with -- for some
:05:13. > :05:18.of the people with the political nice or Ken to come up with simple
:05:19. > :05:23.or comforting statements that should give comfort to the press or people
:05:24. > :05:28.who voted. Do you think the press works like that? If there were some
:05:29. > :05:32.statement about it going well and broadly the plan is we will have
:05:33. > :05:41.access to the single market... The next question would be, how do we do
:05:42. > :05:45.that? This particular question has a vacuum and many things fill a
:05:46. > :05:49.vacuum. People don't know what they're doing, there's bad faith on
:05:50. > :05:54.the part of Brexit supporters in Cabinet because they've manipulated
:05:55. > :05:57.people into a position they have no idea about. So it's better to argue
:05:58. > :06:06.against something you stated than something people are making up.
:06:07. > :06:12.Would Article 50 and again in the process brings some clarification?
:06:13. > :06:18.There would be some discussion about the courts and what they think
:06:19. > :06:23.Parliament's role should be? If you get to know the how of Brexit rather
:06:24. > :06:27.than just the what and you can calibrate your hopes and
:06:28. > :06:35.expectations with reality because you know you're up against the EU's
:06:36. > :06:41.irreducible core, the four freedoms of movement, people, goods, services
:06:42. > :06:46.and capital. Then you have British aspirations. We will you be a super
:06:47. > :06:53.Singapore? Poorer but happy to be self-reliant? Ritter negates the
:06:54. > :06:58.rest of the world? But Britain has to nope. Where does Parliament come
:06:59. > :07:02.in this? You've got views and lots of backbenchers have views and views
:07:03. > :07:07.about the detail and you have to express that, don't you, otherwise
:07:08. > :07:15.you will be elected? The majority of MPs voted to trigger Article 50.
:07:16. > :07:23.Notwithstanding the Liberal Democrat view. During those debates people
:07:24. > :07:28.will attempt to tease out what the government 's position is, but you
:07:29. > :07:33.were right. No matter what the government says, there will be an
:07:34. > :07:37.appetite for more. Detailed to pick over and more from journalists
:07:38. > :07:41.because it is in our professional DNA we want the maximum amount of
:07:42. > :07:46.detail and score runs that are competitors don't have in finding
:07:47. > :07:50.out new pieces of information. I've take the point that there are people
:07:51. > :07:54.who want to get on with the process but investment is still flowing in
:07:55. > :07:58.and growth is still strong. It is not the case that the government's
:07:59. > :08:02.lack of ability to satisfy journalistic curiosity is leading to
:08:03. > :08:10.economic chaos and a plague of frogs on the street. No frogs on the
:08:11. > :08:16.street. That was a comment about amphibians rather than anything
:08:17. > :08:23.else. What Thomas Anderson. Maybe he's directing 2016. Remember that
:08:24. > :08:29.film where frogs fell out, Magnolia. A brilliant film apart from that.
:08:30. > :08:34.Stepping back and leaving aside the press question, a vacuum is a very
:08:35. > :08:40.bad thing in a society that has just been shaken absolutely to the core
:08:41. > :08:44.by this vote. Surely you know that. It shook the Conservative Party to
:08:45. > :08:50.the courts and it has shaken the Labour Party into some kind of odd
:08:51. > :08:55.position of silence. A variety of morbid symptoms have appeared. In
:08:56. > :09:03.the streets is much more unpleasant. It is incumbent on the government
:09:04. > :09:07.after 150 days to actually give us a pretty dam clear steer on what's
:09:08. > :09:12.going to happen in March when she says, article 50. Firstly the
:09:13. > :09:16.government has responsibility to make sure it gets this big decision
:09:17. > :09:22.right. More than that, you're right that there has been a heart
:09:23. > :09:27.searching and debate since the boat. It's also the case that the Prime
:09:28. > :09:31.Minister enjoys a level of popularity and support in the
:09:32. > :09:37.country and president did amongst Western leaders. The idea that
:09:38. > :09:43.Britain is in at the brow position with her position at the moment is
:09:44. > :09:47.pretty strong. This is the striking thing. The referendum showed or
:09:48. > :09:53.reinforced that there's disconnect between expectations of commentators
:09:54. > :09:59.and the settled view of the majority of the people in this country who
:10:00. > :10:04.not only support Brexit but it is the case that 44% of people support
:10:05. > :10:11.and incumbent Prime Minister. These are all red herrings. The economy is
:10:12. > :10:18.doing well and Theresa May is enjoying support... This is not the
:10:19. > :10:25.question. The question is there's a responsibility incumbent upon those
:10:26. > :10:30.at a very traumatising time in this country to at least make an effort
:10:31. > :10:34.to give people comfort. Not journalists who are self-interested,
:10:35. > :10:38.as you say, or other people but to the people who voted and to those
:10:39. > :10:44.who voted to remain who also need comforting. And the insistence on
:10:45. > :10:50.secrecy reminds me of when Donald Trump said that the most sought
:10:51. > :11:00.offensive should have been a sneak attack.
:11:01. > :11:12.The settled view question... There are certain great question that
:11:13. > :11:19.society's debates over and over again. If the reverse result had
:11:20. > :11:24.happened and it had been 40% the other way 52% the other way I can't
:11:25. > :11:30.imagine your good self saying that's the end of the matter, it's settled,
:11:31. > :11:37.even for a generation. It is not settled at all and people will use
:11:38. > :11:46.whatever process they have two... Let Michael finish. To anticipate.
:11:47. > :11:49.The debate will continue but the government has a responsibility to
:11:50. > :11:54.make sure the negotiations are conducted in the right way and they
:11:55. > :11:58.are substantial. We have to be patient for another couple of months
:11:59. > :12:04.until article 50 is triggered and the Parliamentary process is over
:12:05. > :12:07.and then we can see. Patients doesn't work for journalists.
:12:08. > :12:09.Britain has for decades - centuries - had enormous differences
:12:10. > :12:11.in the standard of education available to children
:12:12. > :12:14.But Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools, Sir Michael Wilshaw,
:12:15. > :12:17.pointed to something new this week - that under-performing schools
:12:18. > :12:19.in some parts of the north of England may have contributed
:12:20. > :12:21.to a sense of alienation which could account
:12:22. > :12:25.Two parts to this then - how divided is education
:12:26. > :12:27.in Britain according to class, money or geography?
:12:28. > :12:29.And, secondly, is there a link to economic under-performance
:12:30. > :12:47.When you travel around you see a very divided pattern of education?
:12:48. > :12:53.That that's literally true. More than that, when you travel around
:12:54. > :12:58.the world you see echoes of the same discontent. In the hours after the
:12:59. > :13:07.Brexit result I was reminded strongly of a piece I'd written for
:13:08. > :13:15.the Economist about Haiti. They had a headline," the discontented"
:13:16. > :13:19.because of the amorphous protests and a general sense of being
:13:20. > :13:23.discontented with life, the government, cost of living and
:13:24. > :13:30.everything. It was understandable for there. For Britain, the fifth
:13:31. > :13:34.largest economy, to think that 17 million people just felt somehow
:13:35. > :13:41.that things weren't right. It was the British equivalent of the
:13:42. > :13:46.protest in Haiti with burning tyres. Do you see part of the root of this
:13:47. > :13:50.and education is complicated, that is one of the things in our country
:13:51. > :13:55.that the state does for most people and if it isn't doing it for you
:13:56. > :14:00.where you live, you will be very grumpy about your children's future
:14:01. > :14:05.and your future, when to you? It goes beyond education. The BBC
:14:06. > :14:12.economics editor interviewed the Bank of England chief economist who
:14:13. > :14:16.found that income levels and a general sense of disengagement, I
:14:17. > :14:20.think he said, socially and economically will drive political
:14:21. > :14:24.results. That's what he said. I do feel a connection with education
:14:25. > :14:29.because it was really quite start? He is outgoing and can say what he
:14:30. > :14:32.thinks but he knows about the education system. One of the first
:14:33. > :14:39.things that strikes an outsider when they spend a bit more time in the UK
:14:40. > :14:46.is the absolute cultural divide as well and education is part of that.
:14:47. > :14:51.Things like accident, diction, the way people speak, their interests.
:14:52. > :14:55.There is a divide amongst class and North and South definitely. I think
:14:56. > :15:00.education is folded under that because there is a sense that the
:15:01. > :15:05.dynamo of political culture, economic son the success of the UK
:15:06. > :15:13.in general seems to be in the South. Culturally you see things... Like
:15:14. > :15:16.the North is a throwback. A traditional British culture that
:15:17. > :15:21.doesn't have relevance in today's age. I think the education aspect is
:15:22. > :15:30.interesting but is folded under this quite profound... I'm not sure it's
:15:31. > :15:34.immediately fixable, a cultural divide between classes and
:15:35. > :15:41.geography. When you drop about Haiti, you could have talked about
:15:42. > :15:45.the United States, divided along lines and people angry and looking
:15:46. > :15:48.at the electoral Mac there, very divided. And look who he is
:15:49. > :15:59.appointed be his secretary of Education. On the one hand, everyone
:16:00. > :16:03.wants a uniform standard of high education and attainment and an
:16:04. > :16:07.aspiration for it. But when you bring it into the realm of politics
:16:08. > :16:14.then it becomes politicised and that's been the story of education
:16:15. > :16:19.almost my entire diet -- adult life. It's having a fair shout at the
:16:20. > :16:25.future, isn't it? If the state can't provide that it causes problems. It
:16:26. > :16:32.has too. I have a daughter who goes to a state secondary school. The
:16:33. > :16:37.variance... And not just the variance in quality just within
:16:38. > :16:40.London, but the variance in educational philosophy. Michael
:16:41. > :16:47.knows about this. You have free schools popping up all over my
:16:48. > :16:52.neighbourhood. On the other hand you have parents who say they have to
:16:53. > :16:56.stay committed to the old-fashioned state system and they would support
:16:57. > :17:01.teachers' unions. And there's so much political to bake it seems like
:17:02. > :17:05.the education debate on what should be the curriculum and how we should
:17:06. > :17:10.make our children aspire all over the country and not just in London
:17:11. > :17:14.is getting lost. You were former Secretary of State for Education,
:17:15. > :17:20.there's a difference between people who a degree of choice but they want
:17:21. > :17:25.excellence. We want it all, don't we? It's difficult to be objective.
:17:26. > :17:29.I was responsible at a governmental level for four and a half years but
:17:30. > :17:32.if I can try to be objective I can acknowledge that whilst it has
:17:33. > :17:37.improved in some parts of the country, most of all in London, is
:17:38. > :17:44.still the case that insignificant parts of the country, often but not
:17:45. > :17:48.always poorest areas and those suffering from deindustrialisation,
:17:49. > :17:51.it's not good enough. Limited employment opportunities and schools
:17:52. > :17:57.which are underperforming in relative terms. To be fair to both
:17:58. > :18:02.of my successors, they have tried to ameliorate these problems. Nicky
:18:03. > :18:05.Morgan introduced something to try to ensure our best teachers went to
:18:06. > :18:10.some of the most challenging areas and just Dean has invested money
:18:11. > :18:14.into some of the worst performing areas to see if we can learn from
:18:15. > :18:18.transformation of change. It's a constant battle because the other
:18:19. > :18:22.thing we've had this week is the publication of international league
:18:23. > :18:27.tables for science and maths. England has improved but not as far
:18:28. > :18:31.as other nations. In relative terms we still have a long way to go to
:18:32. > :18:35.catch up with the educational superpowers. That is a very
:18:36. > :18:41.interesting point, isn't it? We pride ourselves in many ways about
:18:42. > :18:45.the Nobel Prize for Cambridge University, but some of our children
:18:46. > :18:50.are leaving school unfortunately with almost no qualifications and
:18:51. > :18:55.that makes them unemployable? Michael Gove will probably be able
:18:56. > :19:01.to do speak better about this, but it's the relentless attempt to meet
:19:02. > :19:07.standards that is now subsuming the attempt to give people an education.
:19:08. > :19:11.Reading, writing and arithmetic, what's wrong with just teaching
:19:12. > :19:18.that? Was probably more relevant coming back to your question to
:19:19. > :19:22.Michael about giving us a fair crack in education, I don't think you do
:19:23. > :19:27.in this country even if you do have a competitive education because of
:19:28. > :19:32.the institutionalised issues with class and social mobility. It is
:19:33. > :19:36.chicken and egg. If you solve those issues they'll be more investment in
:19:37. > :19:40.education in poorer areas because they will be part of those
:19:41. > :19:43.establishments, the poorer people. One of our guests this week,
:19:44. > :19:51.Nesrine, speculated whether... presidency, sections
:19:52. > :19:55.of the media have, in her words, "detoxified" racist, misogynistic,
:19:56. > :19:56.anti-Semitic and sexist speech to such an extent that it has almost
:19:57. > :19:59.become the new normal. Why, for example, do some speak
:20:00. > :20:03.of the far or extremist right as the "alt-right" as if it
:20:04. > :20:19.were a cool new trend? I think so but it is case-by-case.
:20:20. > :20:24.The New York Times ran along profile of Steve Bannon, special adviser now
:20:25. > :20:32.to the President elect, and he's the head of the so-called "alt-right"
:20:33. > :20:41.news site. It completely soft pedalled what it means to give a
:20:42. > :20:49.platform, which is what he has done, for anti-Semitic speech, racist
:20:50. > :20:53.speech and grotesquely misogynist speech, so that in that one
:20:54. > :20:59.instance, I think you're right, broadly it's such a new phenomenon.
:21:00. > :21:05.The speech that Donald Trump wrote... I think he paid that I
:21:06. > :21:10.convinced a lot of people to vote for him with this, is not uncommon
:21:11. > :21:14.and people always complain about politically correct speech and there
:21:15. > :21:21.is a reaction to that. But behind that other really dangerous racists
:21:22. > :21:26.and anti-Semites and it makes it harder when you say "alt-right" to
:21:27. > :21:33.say a clear thing, which is people who use racial division as a key
:21:34. > :21:39.tool in their tool box for electoral success have to be considered, I
:21:40. > :21:43.think, to be neofascist. If you say "alt-right" a kind of sanitises
:21:44. > :21:49.them. What do you make of it? Would you write someone is an "alt-right"
:21:50. > :21:54.commentator? No because it covers too many phenomena. You have a new
:21:55. > :21:59.generation of hipster Nazis, essentially. People who use the
:22:00. > :22:04.Internet and cluster under a pit -- my particular policy Institute,
:22:05. > :22:13.people who greeted the presidency -- new presidency with, hail, Trump!
:22:14. > :22:18.People repackage it. Then there are Ballmer -- broader group of people
:22:19. > :22:23.who are right-wing and in some cases filed and in some cases misogynistic
:22:24. > :22:27.who are not Nazis. Either they are people whose speech I deplore but
:22:28. > :22:31.who are not in the same bracket. There are also others who are
:22:32. > :22:42.provocative heirs, who tried to make us think again and who are in the
:22:43. > :22:48.tradition of 18th-century satirists. They are provocatives. That is
:22:49. > :22:55.interesting. You have to be careful about words. At the weekend, the
:22:56. > :23:03.weekend after his election victory, the Holocaust Memorial Busi in
:23:04. > :23:08.Washington was so worried about the miasma of hate that was suddenly or
:23:09. > :23:12.appeared to be engulfing discourse that they pointed out and they
:23:13. > :23:17.reminded the world that the Holocaust didn't start with killings
:23:18. > :23:23.but words. That's fine. I also think we've got to be careful about
:23:24. > :23:26.overdoing the outrage. We should be watchful, of course, but we should
:23:27. > :23:30.wait to see what the trap administration, if and when they
:23:31. > :23:39.actually move to undermine civil rights. Constitutional freedoms and
:23:40. > :23:43.the natural rights for black Americans, visually distinct
:23:44. > :23:50.immigrants and so on. Let us not quite what to fun. I will tell you
:23:51. > :23:55.why. Charlie Sykes who is a conservative Republican radio talk
:23:56. > :24:01.show host in Milwaukee and he runs a talk who which is very popular, and
:24:02. > :24:06.he explained why his fellow Republicans seemed not to care when
:24:07. > :24:10.their candidate was saying these obviously racist and bigoted things.
:24:11. > :24:20.He said that Republicans are constantly denounced as racists. It
:24:21. > :24:27.goes back to Ronald Reagan, W Bush, and Mitt Romney and everybody and
:24:28. > :24:33.the word loses impact. I get think we need to wait to see racism being
:24:34. > :24:38.enacted to be worried. These things get absorbed into the mainstream and
:24:39. > :24:45.supplemented into art public consciousness -- supplemented --
:24:46. > :24:51.sublimated. This is the mood music and there are sourced it is being
:24:52. > :24:54.painted on walls in Brooklyn, children are being told they can't
:24:55. > :24:58.sit at certain tables because they are Mexican. These are things
:24:59. > :25:03.happening today whether he and accent personally or not. I think a
:25:04. > :25:08.psychologist would call it, to give it permission. There is a spectrum
:25:09. > :25:12.and it gives permission for people to save things that they would not
:25:13. > :25:21.have said publicly in the past. That is the secret, publicly. One of the
:25:22. > :25:25.images, to wikis ago he was interviewing people at his country
:25:26. > :25:28.club in New Jersey and I thought it was perfect because he talks like
:25:29. > :25:35.the guys who prop up the bar at the 19th hole, shall we say. He's from
:25:36. > :25:41.Queens. He is bridge and tunnel, not really from Manhattan. We are
:25:42. > :25:49.getting to the classes amongst billionaires in Manhattan! Look,
:25:50. > :25:56.it's the permission to bring it into the public... So frightening and
:25:57. > :25:57.what frightens and people is that no president or presidential candidate
:25:58. > :26:00.has done this. We are out of time. That's it for Dateline
:26:01. > :26:02.London for this week. You can comment on the programme
:26:03. > :26:04.on Twitter @gavinesler We're back next week
:26:05. > :26:07.at the same time. Make a date
:26:08. > :26:10.with Dateline London.