:00:24. > :00:30.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:31. > :00:32.Did Russia win the US presidential election for Trump?
:00:33. > :00:34.Britain's foreign secretary accuses Britain's ally Saudi Arabia
:00:35. > :00:37.of being engaged in a proxy war in the Middle East -
:00:38. > :00:40.is telling the truth generally a mistake in diplomacy?
:00:41. > :00:42.And Angela Merkel wants to outlaw the burka -
:00:43. > :00:44.might this be connected to next year's German election?
:00:45. > :00:51.Jeffrey Kofman, who is a North American journalist
:00:52. > :01:04.Mina al Oraibi who is an Iraqi journalist
:01:05. > :01:12.and Ian Birrell of the Mail on Sunday.
:01:13. > :01:14.US intelligence now believes that Russian hackers may have influenced
:01:15. > :01:21.Does this mean Donald Trump owes his victory to the Kremlin?
:01:22. > :01:29.It sure the ability it shows the vulnerability democracy the 21st
:01:30. > :01:33.century and it is a terrifying notion that Miller hand I think
:01:34. > :01:39.we're seeing this post truth world of us that Americans will believe
:01:40. > :01:42.they to believe so those who look at the CIA and look at the evidence and
:01:43. > :01:47.say this is credible and a real threat will be upset. The supporters
:01:48. > :01:51.of Trump and the people voted for him and the Breitbart readers of the
:01:52. > :01:54.world will say is just another fabrication. They will say it is not
:01:55. > :02:00.real news because it is becoming so hard to distinguish what is real
:02:01. > :02:03.news in what is fake news. This is absolutely serious stuff. When the
:02:04. > :02:06.CIA and American intelligence officials tell newspapers that this
:02:07. > :02:10.is what happened and Mr Trump 's campaign said these are the same gas
:02:11. > :02:15.and seven was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, does that
:02:16. > :02:20.neutralise it? I think it is a very good talking point. Good for him and
:02:21. > :02:23.Guthrie 's handlers. It is a nice one. But it does not neutralise it
:02:24. > :02:27.at all. I think what is interesting is that President Obama and his last
:02:28. > :02:31.days in office has said I wanted a report before I leave office on the
:02:32. > :02:36.20th of January. This is Obama 's last stand and he is saying let's
:02:37. > :02:40.get this on the record, folks. Seed can be sure that there will be a
:02:41. > :02:44.cluster of people working through the Christmas holidays trying to
:02:45. > :02:47.assemble evidence so that sometime in January the 10th of January 15
:02:48. > :02:51.will get a report that puts us on summer record before Donald Trump
:02:52. > :02:57.moves into the White House. The first thing is that trumps people
:02:58. > :03:02.are saying these unsinkable blotchy weapons of mass destruction reports,
:03:03. > :03:06.undermining the CAA. This is the President-elect again and his team
:03:07. > :03:11.undermining our core pillar of America's security. We saw the FBI
:03:12. > :03:14.getting involved before the election when they bought up the whole issue
:03:15. > :03:20.with Clinton's e-mails. Again people were questioning what is the FBI
:03:21. > :03:23.director trying to do here? So in the one hand it is about the
:03:24. > :03:28.weakness of democracy or the Von ability of democracy. If you start
:03:29. > :03:34.tampering with basics like do we trust the department of justice? Do
:03:35. > :03:39.we trust the CIA? As American population. At about the fact that
:03:40. > :03:44.Russia was involved one way of the other in terms of trying to sway the
:03:45. > :03:47.election at least by the news of the spitting out and the sorts of
:03:48. > :03:52.rumours were put out that Clinton is very ill. If you watched any of the
:03:53. > :03:57.mansion media the of reports about Clinton tells think she was going to
:03:58. > :04:02.die tomorrow. -- Russian media. We don't know goes as far as hacking or
:04:03. > :04:19.leaking but the wicked leak story is an untold story. --Wikileaks. The
:04:20. > :04:25.New York Times say that the data came from people known to be
:04:26. > :04:34.associated with the Kremlin. The implication for that is that
:04:35. > :04:36.Wikileaks would be their conduit from Kremlin disinformation. That
:04:37. > :04:39.could have swung the election fever Donald Trump. Correct. As
:04:40. > :04:45.journalists you are given something by someone that is leaked to you
:04:46. > :04:49.because they want that information to come out. You don't necessarily
:04:50. > :04:53.have to be seen as a tool for our outlets give me that league. I think
:04:54. > :04:56.quite often all of us in our careers have been placed in that moment
:04:57. > :05:00.where you know they're trying to drive a political axe but the
:05:01. > :05:06.information itself, you will put it out in the public domain. We're
:05:07. > :05:10.talking about Trump. We should talk about Putin. He is a real man of the
:05:11. > :05:23.year 2016. He must be grinning every morning when he wakes up. There has
:05:24. > :05:28.been Brexit, he dreams of the EU breaking up. And Trump, his biggest
:05:29. > :05:41.fan, and the White House. The thing with Russia come on the -- thing
:05:42. > :05:45.with Russia is there a time frame and the mindset is fixed on
:05:46. > :05:55.centuries. This is the great Russia, to spread like China. Vladimir Putin
:05:56. > :06:02.is in the long game and looks at Brexit going in his direction.
:06:03. > :06:10.Presidential in France will be between two great frowns of Vladimir
:06:11. > :06:15.Putin. -- fans. Nato is not really a threat to Russia any more. Look at
:06:16. > :06:20.the world. I'm not even talking about Syria. This is frightening.
:06:21. > :06:25.But I think we should start thinking the way he thinks and perhaps we
:06:26. > :06:29.will be slightly less vulnerable. The thing that amazes me about this
:06:30. > :06:32.story and goes back to something Jeffrey says is that although we did
:06:33. > :06:35.not know and American intelligence didn't see this through the
:06:36. > :06:42.newspapers the election campaign, it was known that Vladimir Putin seem
:06:43. > :06:47.to prefer the candidacy of Donald Trump which in any American
:06:48. > :06:53.presidential election since 1945 would have been Mr Kiss of death.
:06:54. > :07:00.People just ignored it. Trump said an outrageous thing everyday city
:07:01. > :07:07.just one piece of information in a notion of outrageous backs. Trump
:07:08. > :07:12.invited this to happen in stood up on a platform and invited Russia to
:07:13. > :07:15.influence the election and hacked e-mails Mr Mann is going to be the
:07:16. > :07:19.next president. We shouldn't forget that. It is part of a bigger picture
:07:20. > :07:22.where the values of liberal democracy under challenge under
:07:23. > :07:27.assault on in the world. It is not just about Europe and Vladimir Putin
:07:28. > :07:33.in America. It is not just about events in the Netherlands and France
:07:34. > :07:37.and Britain with Brexit. It is watching Turkey which has pivoted
:07:38. > :07:44.more towards Russia, traditional ally of the West and seeking to join
:07:45. > :07:47.Europe. There is a report that they have replaced the generals were more
:07:48. > :07:59.pro-Russian generals. The Philippines, Russia's biggest ally
:08:00. > :08:04.is idolising President Putin. In Africa, in West Africa democracy is
:08:05. > :08:06.so precious and GEC what happened in Nigeria with that fantastic
:08:07. > :08:09.transformation of power. We have events going on in Gambia where
:08:10. > :08:13.there is a struggle for power struggle for democracy but in the
:08:14. > :08:18.West we throwing away something which is so precious to others. Also
:08:19. > :08:23.we have countries with a Chinese model of autocracy is being seen as
:08:24. > :08:25.a model to mimic. We'll fight for liberal democracy is under challenge
:08:26. > :08:29.all around the world. Think the West has been incredibly weak and
:08:30. > :08:34.incredibly short-sighted in allowing this to happen. Don't think flooded
:08:35. > :08:37.near Putin is all about long term, I think is a short-term opportunist
:08:38. > :08:40.and I think you see something goes for it and he is brilliant at using
:08:41. > :08:46.those opportunities to pushes or names. With a long-term objective of
:08:47. > :08:49.projecting his own power base and not having liberal democracy in his
:08:50. > :08:58.own country. He knows he will be in power for so many years. To pick up
:08:59. > :09:03.from what Ian says, I think what is becoming clearer and clearer in this
:09:04. > :09:06.allegation against Russia simply asked who it is that after 70 years
:09:07. > :09:11.of stability and liberal democracy after the Second World War we are
:09:12. > :09:15.going through a pivot and we don't know where this is going to take is.
:09:16. > :09:19.I think a lot of it, amazingly, comes out of social media and the
:09:20. > :09:25.proliferation of social media around the world. It is change the nature
:09:26. > :09:30.of discourse. What is so dangerous as the institutions of democracy,
:09:31. > :09:34.American democracy and European democracy, were not really designed
:09:35. > :09:45.to handle these kind of intrusions, hacking by the Russians and the alt
:09:46. > :09:50.right and their false news in the United States. That all adds up to
:09:51. > :09:53.an uncertain future. In a democracy where people are expected to inform
:09:54. > :09:58.themselves and choose, if the old information system is corrupted in
:09:59. > :10:02.some way by various people, then it becomes very difficult to make a
:10:03. > :10:05.rational choice. It is true and the information system is being
:10:06. > :10:09.corrupted but I would see it is beyond just information social
:10:10. > :10:13.media, which is important. Also the fact is important. Also the factors
:10:14. > :10:16.is that in most Western liberal democracies the wealth gap is
:10:17. > :10:20.increasing and the people who are disenchanted and liberal values and
:10:21. > :10:23.things that we think about and take into consideration, many people are
:10:24. > :10:26.struggling to get by and the sake please get on with that. Spain are
:10:27. > :10:30.struggling with 25% unemployment amongst issues. They are not talking
:10:31. > :10:35.about how we're bringing European values into the world. I think also
:10:36. > :10:40.part of the problem is after the Cold War ended this idea that
:10:41. > :10:49.capitalism one. What is capitalism done with the world? . People look
:10:50. > :10:52.at economic models and say state capitalism and let them take care of
:10:53. > :10:58.me because we feel we have been left out. What we take away from this
:10:59. > :11:08.Russian hacking is that the means to disrupt democracy or to disrupt
:11:09. > :11:10.other governments are at your fingertips if you know how to use
:11:11. > :11:13.your computer. And that opens up a vulnerability and an the stability
:11:14. > :11:15.of us into unknown waters. I think of a real duty as journalist to
:11:16. > :11:18.fight back and present the facts. People talk about capitalism being a
:11:19. > :11:26.failure that life expectancy is soaring around the world. I
:11:27. > :11:29.understand the point. We have a duty to engage these arguments and
:11:30. > :11:33.Gallas. When Nigel Farage stands up and says actually Russia was
:11:34. > :11:39.provoked into what happened in the Ukraine, we have a duty to point out
:11:40. > :11:42.that is a downright lie. I absolutely agree. But it is who is
:11:43. > :11:48.your audience and how Rogers received information? -- how does
:11:49. > :11:51.your audience receive information? This week Britain's Foreign
:11:52. > :11:53.Secretary Boris Johnson - a man with a reputation
:11:54. > :11:56.for being born with a silver foot in his mouth -
:11:57. > :12:02.did something he may regret: he told He spoke of Britain's ally Saudi
:12:03. > :12:06.Arabia and Iran "puppeteering" - pulling the strings behind proxy
:12:07. > :12:08.wars in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. As Donald Trump also learns
:12:09. > :12:11.about his new job after a minor scuffle with China -
:12:12. > :12:25.is telling the truth in diplomacy Is a proxy war are not? I would say
:12:26. > :12:28.that the premise that Boris Johnson was telling truth, I disagree with
:12:29. > :12:38.wholeheartedly. Yemen is not a and Syria is not Libya. -- Iraq. It is
:12:39. > :12:43.easy to see this is between Saudi Arabia and Iran. It is not true.
:12:44. > :12:47.What is happening in Iraq is the consequence of the 2003 war and the
:12:48. > :12:54.failures after that and a lot of internal dynamics and Iran exporting
:12:55. > :12:58.revolution coming into Iraq and what they're doing there. Was people
:12:59. > :13:03.inside Iraq would come plain that the Saudis did not do enough to
:13:04. > :13:08.engage Arabs and bring back the Arab presence in Iraq. In 2010 and 2009
:13:09. > :13:12.Iraq was complaining that Syria was the main source of terrorism inside
:13:13. > :13:19.Iraq that went as far as to take it to the UN. Then we going to Syria.
:13:20. > :13:24.Let's not forget that this peaceful uprising against the regime where
:13:25. > :13:27.people don't even want to remove President Assad but just to fight
:13:28. > :13:30.corruption and those who are committing crimes through the
:13:31. > :13:34.security practice. It is when the West stood up and said President
:13:35. > :13:40.Assad must go that the whole dynamic change. All I would say is that
:13:41. > :13:43.Boris Johnson has a responsibility as Foreign Secretary not to narrow
:13:44. > :13:48.down to one sound bite and say this is actually what it is about. That
:13:49. > :13:51.is the biggest concern, I think. Not for Saudi Arabia but for many people
:13:52. > :13:56.from the region saying it is not just about Iran. For that is the
:13:57. > :14:01.whole issue a proxy war it is not just a rant we have Russia and
:14:02. > :14:04.America, Turkey and Iran. There many countries involved so let's not
:14:05. > :14:13.simplify at an almost abdicate responsibility. That criticism
:14:14. > :14:16.implies he's intellectually lazy and is not mastered his brief India's
:14:17. > :14:19.Foreign Secretary and he's been to the Middle East shortly after the
:14:20. > :14:24.Prime Minister. There have often been allegations made that Boris
:14:25. > :14:30.Johnson this are the master of his brief. I agree with a lot of what
:14:31. > :14:35.you're saying, it totally excludes other players. It excludes local
:14:36. > :14:39.politics on the ground and see these big clashes just like in Ukraine has
:14:40. > :14:44.quit international global clashes and ignore the people on the ground
:14:45. > :14:48.in the ground. It will find it rather gratifying that they begin to
:14:49. > :14:51.see this. It begs the question why is Britain selling weapons to one of
:14:52. > :14:58.the key players in this? Why is Britain so long back to cause a
:14:59. > :15:02.force like Arabia. In some conflicts with on the side of one member
:15:03. > :15:06.reports to them and you look at what is happening in the Libya and we are
:15:07. > :15:10.opposed to one nation and we are in the same service Syria. That is with
:15:11. > :15:13.the local dynamics come in. It was depressing to hear the premise to
:15:14. > :15:19.stand up and say actually these countries, he's got potentates, the
:15:20. > :15:23.forces that we can do business is the backing of almost models, she
:15:24. > :15:28.was saying. I find that very depressing so does beg a lot of
:15:29. > :15:31.questions about the half-truths and have statements that Boris Johnson
:15:32. > :15:35.was making and then also the very depressing business as usual
:15:36. > :15:38.response. Let's not forget Tony Blair, his biggest mistake of all I
:15:39. > :15:43.think, as most outrageous thing was not just the Iraq war, it is that he
:15:44. > :15:47.usurped the British justice system that point of corruption case was
:15:48. > :15:52.being waged over arms dealing and dodgy potential charges of arms
:15:53. > :15:56.dealing involving Saudi Arabia at the behest of the Saudi Arabians
:15:57. > :16:06.Tony Blair canned court case in Britain and that is most outrageous
:16:07. > :16:08.thing possibly that he did in power. What is depressing is hearing the
:16:09. > :16:16.Prime Minister slapping down the Foreign Secretary. Could they not
:16:17. > :16:20.agree before the script? Probably appointing Boris Johnson as Foreign
:16:21. > :16:23.Secretary and the first place was mistake. You see sodium that
:16:24. > :16:31.internal wall within the Conservative wrecking foreign
:16:32. > :16:39.policy. The same way that Brexit happen. She needs supporters of
:16:40. > :16:43.Brexit N Howard government that seems to enjoy slapping down in
:16:44. > :16:47.public. There will be a leadership contest. It will be able to last for
:16:48. > :16:53.a very long time because they will slap back. In the end to schoolyard
:16:54. > :16:59.politics and we're talking important issues here. That is a question
:17:00. > :17:04.where we talked a lot about the Trump situation social media and
:17:05. > :17:09.people do expect more engagement and even in the post-truth world I think
:17:10. > :17:15.people have an issue raised by what is going on that should we have more
:17:16. > :17:19.openness and more truth telling with the world of democracy just within
:17:20. > :17:25.diplomacy justice within the world of politics? I do think that whether
:17:26. > :17:29.or not it was inappropriate and whether or not it was informed that
:17:30. > :17:34.this parallel with Trump taking a call from the president of Taiwan
:17:35. > :17:39.and upsetting the Chinese. I think the nature of this new order of
:17:40. > :17:42.leadership that we are seeing, they will not follow protocols are we
:17:43. > :17:50.better get used to it. I think it is perilous and I think some people,
:17:51. > :18:01.times I feel this tiptoeing around the issues hasn't worked and has
:18:02. > :18:10.been sustaining resumes it should be removed. It can be refreshing. When
:18:11. > :18:19.he talked about how wily was actually on to something. -- Taiwan.
:18:20. > :18:25.I remember sitting here when Boris Johnson was appointed Foreign
:18:26. > :18:29.Secretary and I remember seeing that this was one of those cases of
:18:30. > :18:32.Theresa May being a very savvy politician because as much as he was
:18:33. > :18:37.a loose cannon that she did not include him in a senior role it
:18:38. > :18:43.because more grief. The old keep your friends close and your enemies
:18:44. > :18:46.closer. They are not met at -- the other metaphor is give them enough
:18:47. > :18:50.rope to hang themselves only take a couple of feet. -- he just took a
:18:51. > :18:53.couple of feet. There is great unease in Britain,
:18:54. > :18:56.France and all across western Europe about the failure of some Muslims
:18:57. > :18:58.to integrate happily For some, Muslim women wearing
:18:59. > :19:01.the burka have become a symbol of precisely that
:19:02. > :19:03.failure to integrate. Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel -
:19:04. > :19:06.facing a tough election next year - But do European governments have
:19:07. > :19:10.more important things to worry That's it for Dateline
:19:11. > :19:35.London for this week. There was the burkini in the summer.
:19:36. > :19:50.The Barca is not a neutral piece of clothing. --Burka. A lot of people
:19:51. > :20:04.on the social media as what the problem was with the burkini --
:20:05. > :20:11.asked what was the problem. The burkini is religious and a pretty
:20:12. > :20:20.harsh logistic cat and women. Interpretation. And so was the you
:20:21. > :20:31.can tell people how should they address. -- and so was the burqa. .
:20:32. > :20:35.Covering your face in Western society says I don't want to
:20:36. > :20:44.integrate and having a hijab says that's fine. To most Western
:20:45. > :20:51.Europeans does mean integration. For a lot of Muslim countries the burqa.
:20:52. > :20:58.Self as an aberration. We are seeing a change in society. We never used
:20:59. > :21:02.to see the burqa on the streets that are 40 years ago. The problems about
:21:03. > :21:11.integrated and not integrating. One thing with the burqa issue can see
:21:12. > :21:17.it is security consideration of thing that was clear from the
:21:18. > :21:22.comments by Angela Merkel. I think that you can make a security
:21:23. > :21:25.argument and I can see it for you not like to go into a bag with a
:21:26. > :21:31.helmet on strike I can see that. The problem is when it becomes about
:21:32. > :21:35.Muslims and integration. Then it is easy to pick the women and quite
:21:36. > :21:38.often it is frustrating as a woman to have to push back against these
:21:39. > :21:43.things because I don't want to be in a position they were just talking
:21:44. > :21:47.about whether the mac what a can occur nowhere. There's an idea if I
:21:48. > :21:53.wanted with a scuba diving suit because I do want my skin exposed
:21:54. > :21:56.that is OK but that if it is about religion and becomes about
:21:57. > :22:00.integrating. It is about how we approached issues. The last thing
:22:01. > :22:03.you want to do is just gave is very simplistic interpretation about what
:22:04. > :22:07.it means to integrate and not because I think despite being
:22:08. > :22:10.law-abiding citizens but also speaking the language and engaging
:22:11. > :22:13.society and engaging with community. Those things stock about stock about
:22:14. > :22:15.clearly and openly in saying yes that are some problems with
:22:16. > :22:23.integration of different communities. This is a struggle
:22:24. > :22:27.between pluralism and secularism and at the same time this week there was
:22:28. > :22:31.a case in Germany that highlighted as much as the comments by Angela
:22:32. > :22:37.Merkel what the challenges. A 30-year-old Muslim girl went to
:22:38. > :22:41.court to say she shouldn't have to go to swimming classes and the court
:22:42. > :22:45.ruled against her. She said she should be allowed to have separate
:22:46. > :22:48.gender classes as well. You can understand why people are offended
:22:49. > :22:53.by that. You come to Germany and Germany is opened its arms to you
:22:54. > :22:56.know you are saying the school system has two adjust its entire
:22:57. > :23:02.model to accommodate your values. The court said no. Is not right. I
:23:03. > :23:10.think it is slightly depressing with Angela Merkel because she's the best
:23:11. > :23:13.hope of protecting things I hold quite dear Bush is the ultra
:23:14. > :23:16.pragmatism whole of Europe and she was to send signals before the
:23:17. > :23:29.election. This week we'll also had a new report, it integration. It is
:23:30. > :23:34.very interesting that they have all this talk endlessly about the move
:23:35. > :23:40.Trinity. In that report it is a very key statistic that actually 89% of
:23:41. > :23:47.Great Britain seem to get on very well with little liquidity. --
:23:48. > :23:57.Muslim committee. -- get on very well with their community. That is
:23:58. > :24:01.up from 80%. William Ewart Gladstone was writing pamphlets about
:24:02. > :24:08.Catholics coming here and not integrating and winning funny close.
:24:09. > :24:11.We had to buy the Jewish community and one of the things they did was
:24:12. > :24:15.introduced the national dish of fish and chips with fried fish. It is one
:24:16. > :24:20.committee been targeted again and again and nothing that is a strain
:24:21. > :24:29.of Islamophobia. I think with the Casey report we have me of London.
:24:30. > :24:34.-- Lord Mayor of London. He happens to be from a Muslim background and
:24:35. > :24:37.this was suggested the campaigners were somehow dangerous and London is
:24:38. > :24:52.absolutely rejected that. They did well and we have a Spanish woman as
:24:53. > :24:56.the Paris Mayor. The secular system in France is quite unique that it
:24:57. > :25:05.does not target religion in particular. It targets all religion.
:25:06. > :25:10.Politicians target one religion. The war against the Catholic Church 100
:25:11. > :25:14.years ago was far more ferocious and I think good for the French public
:25:15. > :25:21.at the time because it was a question of growing up. Growing up
:25:22. > :25:25.for the state and to cut the umbilical cord with the church,
:25:26. > :25:32.which was a wonderful thing to happen. Secularism is a neutrality.
:25:33. > :25:38.It does not recognise any religion that protects them all. We tend to
:25:39. > :25:42.forget that. That is the core of secularism, the French way. We are
:25:43. > :25:47.going to have to leave it there. You can comment on the programme
:25:48. > :25:49.on Twitter @gavinesler We're back next week
:25:50. > :25:53.at the same time. Please make a date
:25:54. > :25:55.with Dateline London.