:00:25. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:27. > :00:28.How "special" is Britain's so-called "special relationship"
:00:29. > :00:36.And how wise is it for a British prime minister to try to get close
:00:37. > :00:38.to an American president - and end up with a picture
:00:39. > :00:42.My guests today are: Alex Deane who is a conservative commentator,
:00:43. > :00:45.Agnes Poirier of France's Marianne, Mustapha Karkouti of Gulf News and
:00:46. > :00:51.Jef McAllister, an American writer and broadcaster
:00:52. > :00:55.A British ambassador to Washington once told me -
:00:56. > :00:57.as we awaited the first meeting between the then British
:00:58. > :01:04.prime minister and a new American president -
:01:05. > :01:06.that they were "fated to get on wonderfully well."
:01:07. > :01:09.He meant that whatever the personal chemistry - or lack of it -
:01:10. > :01:12.the totality of the relationship between the UK and US was so
:01:13. > :01:16.But how well does that work with Theresa May and Donald Trump?
:01:17. > :01:21.It seems to me the most interesting thing about it is that it took place
:01:22. > :01:27.within the first few days? Yes, the first foreign head to be in to see
:01:28. > :01:31.the American presence, I think the quote from your former ambassador
:01:32. > :01:34.friend is right. These are two countries that need to work hard to
:01:35. > :01:37.get on and I don't think there is any secret that we struggle somewhat
:01:38. > :01:40.under President Obama who is not as well disposed to the British
:01:41. > :01:46.interest as the now president seems to be. I suppose my point is this,
:01:47. > :01:50.whether you agreed with Brexit or not, that is now the directional
:01:51. > :01:54.travel that our country is on. President Obama and his preferred
:01:55. > :01:58.successor Hillary Clinton set themselves Paul square against that
:01:59. > :02:03.so even if you voted against Brexit and power and ardent Remainer, you
:02:04. > :02:06.should now be happy, that we have a president who looks optimistic and
:02:07. > :02:09.positively at the path that we are set on. You may dislike Donald Trump
:02:10. > :02:14.or many other reasons and those reasons may be valid but on this it
:02:15. > :02:20.is good fry country that it happened, and went the way that we
:02:21. > :02:23.did. Do you see this as some British press sees it, as a danger that a
:02:24. > :02:27.Prime Minister gets too close to an American president. It was said that
:02:28. > :02:32.Tony Blair got too close to George Bush and that lead us into the mess
:02:33. > :02:34.of Iraq? When I watch the press conference, I thought the Prime
:02:35. > :02:37.Minister came out of that exceptionally well and if you think
:02:38. > :02:44.about anyone who's policy positions changed, it was Trump, not May. One
:02:45. > :02:49.week ago he was saying that Nato was obsolete, with encouragement of
:02:50. > :02:54.Theresa May it is now 100% relevant and he supports it. And maybe
:02:55. > :02:59.general Matias two. He said that he would step back, and support the
:03:00. > :03:03.general 's position. In the same way that he seems to be rowing back on
:03:04. > :03:10.torture as well. But he does seem to be bit double, and the other one is
:03:11. > :03:12.Ukraine. Where Theresa made straight that our country and there is has a
:03:13. > :03:19.significant position of difference and she didn't back down one bit.
:03:20. > :03:24.What did you make of it? Well I wish I could share your enthusiasm, of
:03:25. > :03:27.course he is the presidents of the United States, the used and nine it
:03:28. > :03:34.and we had to work with the man. On the other hand as a friend Britain,
:03:35. > :03:41.I felt, I was shivering, just seeing them holding hands which the British
:03:42. > :03:47.media paid Seo much of it. It is on every single newspaper. It was a
:03:48. > :03:55.temporary safety measure I believe, they were walking downstairs. He was
:03:56. > :03:59.being polite. He was being polite but I just don't see Angela Merkel
:04:00. > :04:04.being led the way that she is. I thought it was a bit embarrassing
:04:05. > :04:10.for Britain. Also, that press conference, the FT said that there
:04:11. > :04:14.was considerable warmth between the two. What I saw was considerable
:04:15. > :04:18.awkwardness, she was walking on eggshells of course and she managed
:04:19. > :04:24.to get him to say at least not on camera, that he was backing Nato
:04:25. > :04:32.100% and that is a in itself, but otherwise, she was going there, Ray
:04:33. > :04:36.few words from the president about the trade deal, but Article 50 has
:04:37. > :04:42.not been triggered yet so she's not actually cable or starting at entry
:04:43. > :04:46.negotiations. You can have talks of course but you didn't say anything
:04:47. > :04:51.on that trade deal apart from Brexit was the most wonderful things. To
:04:52. > :04:54.pick up on Alex's point, wasn't the most interesting thing about
:04:55. > :04:58.yesterday that whatever one may say about Donald Trump and a lot has
:04:59. > :05:01.been said all over the place about him, he appears to be pragmatic
:05:02. > :05:06.enough to listen to people who actually know what they talk about.
:05:07. > :05:14.If he listens to General Mattis four example is somebody with a long
:05:15. > :05:16.career in defence, it is very clear that he doesn't think that torture
:05:17. > :05:20.is a good idea. I know, but you can't actually ignore, the fact that
:05:21. > :05:27.an American president says that personally, you think that torture
:05:28. > :05:31.works. It is difficult to ignore. But you cannot ignore the fact that
:05:32. > :05:34.he said even if he thinks that, he will defer to someone else. I
:05:35. > :05:40.thought it was an interesting point. It is still to Moxon tip becomes a
:05:41. > :05:44.dictatorship. What do you make of it? I think Theresa May left
:05:45. > :05:50.Washington saying to herself, I cannot trust this man. I don't think
:05:51. > :05:56.she will trust this man. Because he is a man who changes his mind every
:05:57. > :06:02.day. And he is a loner in a way. When he stands up in the press
:06:03. > :06:06.conference and says, look, I am rich, very, very rich. As if he says
:06:07. > :06:13.I don't need this job and this money so I'm doing you a favour to be here
:06:14. > :06:18.in this position. You cannot trust this man in a way. Yes of course he
:06:19. > :06:23.said I'm with you 100% over Nato, but give him two or three months,
:06:24. > :06:30.easy going to stick to his position? I doubt it. And I'm sure Theresa May
:06:31. > :06:34.doubts it. That is interesting. You've seen lots of presidents at
:06:35. > :06:41.the White House, it has been quite an extremely weak for Donald Trump?
:06:42. > :06:44.For America? It is such a blizzard of things you can hardly even
:06:45. > :06:48.remember how it began, the speech at the CIA where he is standing in
:06:49. > :06:54.front of the wall of the fallen and uses it as a long talk about his own
:06:55. > :06:57.wonderfulness. Where he says that the news media made up his
:06:58. > :07:02.differences with intelligence agencies which was a lie. Two people
:07:03. > :07:09.for whom not lying actually matters because that is their jobs, trying
:07:10. > :07:12.to figure out things. And to say, that of course there was tremendous
:07:13. > :07:16.voter fraud and that was the only reason why I didn't get the popular
:07:17. > :07:23.vote. That was another lie and he said that to them. That was seven
:07:24. > :07:28.days ago. A long week. And the executive order that was in favour
:07:29. > :07:32.of torture, which has now been rescinded. But there is a law
:07:33. > :07:39.against it anyway so the executive order is irrelevant and James Mattis
:07:40. > :07:43.was against it. Theresa May, I think it is important for the president
:07:44. > :07:47.and the Prime Minister tried to get on, yes, there is a little bit of
:07:48. > :07:52.the supplicant trying to rush in but it's fine, this is an important
:07:53. > :07:57.relationship. If it goes well for the US it is a force multiplier for
:07:58. > :08:00.Britain, I would point to the relationship that Tony Blair and
:08:01. > :08:03.George Bush had in the days after September the 11th when it actually
:08:04. > :08:07.worked really well where Blair would go to Washington, he at the second
:08:08. > :08:10.highest approval rating of any public figure in the United States
:08:11. > :08:14.and he would come back to Europe and all of the European Prime Minister
:08:15. > :08:16.'s would line up to have dinner with him because they wanted to
:08:17. > :08:21.understand what Bush was saying and he was kind of the ambassador. It
:08:22. > :08:27.all went wrong when he became too supplicant three over Iraq and he
:08:28. > :08:34.didn't pull back. So that is a danger, of being a Democrat in a
:08:35. > :08:38.Conservative thing. I think the worrying thing about this visit, yes
:08:39. > :08:43.it looks like a normal visit, but Trump is not a normal president. He
:08:44. > :08:46.does not believe in the Liberal International order, he believes in
:08:47. > :08:50.himself coming getting attention for himself. If you look at all of his
:08:51. > :08:54.biographers, they say he has never had any friends. He doesn't have any
:08:55. > :08:58.long-term friends, he discards his wise when they are not useful to
:08:59. > :09:02.him. He doesn't believe in alliances and long-term building, he believes
:09:03. > :09:06.in transactions and beating the other guy in a deal. Here we have
:09:07. > :09:11.Britain that has given away its European home and is looking for
:09:12. > :09:15.deals. Are you saying that these are two leaders that have got no mates?
:09:16. > :09:20.The British don't get on with the European friends and Donald Trump
:09:21. > :09:24.doesn't get on with anybody? But there is also a system in which they
:09:25. > :09:30.used to operate. I think if Vladimir Putin now takes advantage of say,
:09:31. > :09:36.lessening some sanctions, I don't think Trump is going to opposing
:09:37. > :09:40.like Obama did. Meddling in the elections and doing things the last
:09:41. > :09:44.of GDP concerning, I think this desire for Britain to be paying all
:09:45. > :09:50.of this attention to trade deals within individual countries, and the
:09:51. > :09:53.smallness of its ambitions it is going to feel like it is the wrong
:09:54. > :10:00.choice but it is going to fit in with Trump's. The there is false
:10:01. > :10:06.with what you say, I could agree -- disagree about what Trump was --
:10:07. > :10:11.agree with Trump speaking front of the wall and it was crass. But I
:10:12. > :10:16.disagree with you, in exception is with results. I'm not saying you
:10:17. > :10:21.particularly but the left often says that the result we have had is so
:10:22. > :10:24.bad that it transcends normal systems. When democracy sometimes
:10:25. > :10:29.you get results that you don't like and each side has to live with that
:10:30. > :10:33.result. But I'm so angry that this can't be normal, and therefore the
:10:34. > :10:38.result is whether it be voting to leave the European Union will Donald
:10:39. > :10:43.Trump the president must somehow be invalid. Li I don't think it is
:10:44. > :10:47.invalid, I think it is worrisome and it creates risks, and risks of the
:10:48. > :10:50.dissolution of the international order that has triggered peace and
:10:51. > :11:03.security for so many years is a risk. Both playing as not
:11:04. > :11:08.isolationists, it is I am best. I think it is a new world altogether,
:11:09. > :11:15.a new political environment, I think everybody is trying to find his or
:11:16. > :11:20.her place. Like Theresa May. How to deal with this man. It is a very
:11:21. > :11:28.worrying thing to do, because listening to his speeches, the day
:11:29. > :11:37.before, in Philadelphia, the mere fact that she was, repeating, the
:11:38. > :11:47.fact, the two great nations historically, and reminding. Brew
:11:48. > :11:52.wanting to lead together. The other point that I wanted to make, I'm
:11:53. > :11:55.very interested in your country's politics, in the enzyme bridges
:11:56. > :11:59.should because I'm most interested in how Britain fares. Our Prime
:12:00. > :12:03.Minister didn't choose this hand, she neither voted to leave the
:12:04. > :12:06.European Union nor did she have any say on Trump being president but
:12:07. > :12:09.she's dealing with hands that she is being dealt and I'm very proud of
:12:10. > :12:15.the way that she is conducting herself actually. One of the things
:12:16. > :12:19.I have wanted to bring up, it has been many years since I have read
:12:20. > :12:24.the art of the deal, Donald Trump says, or his ghost writer, says
:12:25. > :12:28.something like you make a better deal when the person in front of you
:12:29. > :12:35.is desperate to make a deal. That is the thing that I wonder about. Jeff
:12:36. > :12:39.was talking about Tony Blair and Bush, Tony Blair missed a historical
:12:40. > :12:45.opportunity at the time, because he did have leveraged over Bush and he
:12:46. > :12:50.was close to him and he could have done something which he didn't do
:12:51. > :12:57.and that was a historical mistake in many ways. He could have actually
:12:58. > :13:05.just before the invasion, he would have been able to tell Bush look,
:13:06. > :13:12.this was a mistake. Brew but he and colon Powell could have had a senior
:13:13. > :13:17.conversation. But also he and Colin Powell could have had a senior
:13:18. > :13:24.conversation. But Britain is very important on the chessboard and can
:13:25. > :13:27.make a real difference, but what I so, yesterday in Washington, the
:13:28. > :13:33.British Prime Minister who of course needs to do what she has to do but
:13:34. > :13:39.she also, there was an element of desperation and she felt really sink
:13:40. > :13:44.a frantic. I'm a Tory and I love blaming Tony Blair for anything, on
:13:45. > :13:50.that one it is the job of the new Prime Minister to make sure that we
:13:51. > :13:56.are close to our closest ally. I want to point out that some of the
:13:57. > :13:59.bases, for the cooperation is intelligence and offence. Many
:14:00. > :14:05.things that are part of this regardless of who the Prime Minister
:14:06. > :14:08.is. But British spending on its own defence has decreased, the number of
:14:09. > :14:12.aircraft carriers and planes on aircraft carriers, the number of
:14:13. > :14:15.submarines, the size of the Army. Actually it is getting to the point
:14:16. > :14:23.where Britain is not gain to be able to make the kind of contributions
:14:24. > :14:28.should there be a gulf of land war. And I think that is important for
:14:29. > :14:33.the future. Theresa May does not have as many cards in her hand. A
:14:34. > :14:41.lot has been made in this side of the land sick about these executive
:14:42. > :14:47.orders. I'm tempted to ask, so what? Didn't Obama signed an executive
:14:48. > :14:52.order eight years ago this month. And whatever happened to that? What
:14:53. > :14:57.I'm trying to get at is the totality of the relationships between Britain
:14:58. > :15:00.and the United States also involves Theresa May talking to the
:15:01. > :15:05.Republican party, that went down very well. It is not just about the
:15:06. > :15:08.president, but whatever you say about all Trump, his freedom former
:15:09. > :15:14.mover is more limited than people think. I think that is fair if you
:15:15. > :15:18.look at the executive orders, they are mostly public relations, they
:15:19. > :15:22.are intended to throw red meat to the base and signal a directional
:15:23. > :15:26.travel but they are not legally valid because they contradict
:15:27. > :15:29.legislation or because they are easily provoke a ball or because
:15:30. > :15:33.there are conditions that haven't come to pass, or they say things
:15:34. > :15:36.that are already law but people don't remember that Obama has
:15:37. > :15:45.already done about immigration policy for instance. This is a
:15:46. > :15:49.common tactic of new presidents, to issue a flurry of executive orders.
:15:50. > :15:58.I think we have two get used to, Trump doesn't care as much about the
:15:59. > :16:01.substance. Obama a constitutional law expert cares about doing the
:16:02. > :16:05.right thing. What Trump always cares about his being at the centre of the
:16:06. > :16:09.news and getting adulation for it and if it takes executive orders
:16:10. > :16:14.that don't add up, or end up in the heap on the floor he doesn't care.
:16:15. > :16:17.How is he viewed in the Middle East in particular on the guv, I was
:16:18. > :16:22.talking to a golf specialist and they say do you know what, there is
:16:23. > :16:26.a fair wind but I'm Trump in Gulf nations partly because he recognises
:16:27. > :16:31.the threat as they see it from Iran and that is a big story in the Gulf?
:16:32. > :16:39.That is true, I think it would please the Gulf. People in general.
:16:40. > :16:45.Of his stance on Iran. If he does what he says, they will certainly be
:16:46. > :16:51.relieved, no doubt about that. This is only one point. You need to think
:16:52. > :17:00.of stability in the long term, in the entire region, not only,
:17:01. > :17:06.assuming he launches a war if you like or attacks, hitting the nuclear
:17:07. > :17:14.facilities or whatever. That is what talking about. Will it be limited to
:17:15. > :17:22.that part only? Would it threaten the entire region itself? They are
:17:23. > :17:32.worried, a lot more than Iran, about extremism, fundamentalism in the
:17:33. > :17:39.region itself. It is proper either first priority as far as politics in
:17:40. > :17:49.the region. Ease Trump prepared to do anything about that? He did say a
:17:50. > :17:54.few things about Muslims just if you days ago yesterday.
:17:55. > :18:01.And also his team started talking about building a database of Muslims
:18:02. > :18:07.inside the US. And barring people from certain countries like Syria
:18:08. > :18:12.where you are from. Exactly. And that made a person like Madeline
:18:13. > :18:23.Albright threaten to convert to Islam if he does that. Is that a bit
:18:24. > :18:27.of froth? I don't think it is froth, we should listen to people around
:18:28. > :18:36.the world. On the other hand, he is far less interested in intervening
:18:37. > :18:38.around the world, it will be not very interesting to liberal
:18:39. > :18:41.interventionists but it would be much more agreeable to people who
:18:42. > :18:44.don't want interventions from superpowers. On the other hand,
:18:45. > :18:54.Balmer dropped hundreds of thousands of bombs, on Muslims, and was widely
:18:55. > :18:57.regarded by the foreign affairs lobby as a hero. There is a
:18:58. > :19:01.difference between these two things, would I find it more difficult to
:19:02. > :19:07.find Davies in the United States will get a bomb dropped on me? Brew
:19:08. > :19:12.Trump is stopping the drone programme and he will be doing the
:19:13. > :19:20.same thing -- Trump is not stopping the drone programme. How do you know
:19:21. > :19:22.that? Brew he hasn't told me, but it is essentially inevitable, that is
:19:23. > :19:27.what the entire Establishment has been looking to do. And there are
:19:28. > :19:31.not very alternatives if you want to be a tough guy and if you want to do
:19:32. > :19:37.things from Washington. The danger is, let's say that he makes the deal
:19:38. > :19:41.with Russia, sanctions gone in return for cooperation. The problem
:19:42. > :19:47.with Russia as a ally against terrorism is, they have created a
:19:48. > :19:52.lot of people from Chechnya who go to Syria because of the tactics they
:19:53. > :19:57.have used. They kill eight times as many people in the bombing as
:19:58. > :20:00.American strikes, and if you look at Trump's executive order banning
:20:01. > :20:05.Muslims, it is from countries none of which sent any of the 911
:20:06. > :20:10.bombers, the most it affects is Iran. As one Iranians foreign policy
:20:11. > :20:15.official said, Americans have created more people going to Isis
:20:16. > :20:18.than Iran has. They have two create this notion that you are actually
:20:19. > :20:28.increasing radicalism if you team up with the Russians. Your point about
:20:29. > :20:32.the orders and restricting travel is reasonable, the Ven diagram between
:20:33. > :20:36.countries that have sent citizen between 911 and the countries who
:20:37. > :20:40.are banned, do not overlap one bit. Saudi Arabia is of course the
:20:41. > :20:44.largest single one. And I wanted to return to your Russia point, because
:20:45. > :20:49.on the one hand as they showed in Syria, the Russians, brutal and
:20:50. > :20:52.effective, RGB only on the narrow interpretation of what you think
:20:53. > :20:57.should happen. The Americans and indeed the rest of us. Well meant
:20:58. > :21:01.and well-intentioned and utterly ineffectual. You have got to pick
:21:02. > :21:04.your preferred option. Doing peace with Russia, I think there are many
:21:05. > :21:07.people who will look at that and would say that I would rather that
:21:08. > :21:17.Russia got on better with United States. If you listen to Theresa May
:21:18. > :21:24.before she talked to Trump, she was always -- already showing signs that
:21:25. > :21:28.we should have a different attitude to Russia. Perhaps we will keep
:21:29. > :21:34.sanctions on the Ukraine but there is room for improvement. This is
:21:35. > :21:38.happening, if France with you is elected French President, he is for
:21:39. > :21:46.the moment best placed to be the French president, -- Fillon. There
:21:47. > :21:49.will be a complete the other side to French foreign policy. It will be a
:21:50. > :21:53.new era of Franco Russian friendship. And indeed in other
:21:54. > :21:59.countries in Europe, I think we are going there because we know, Obama
:22:00. > :22:03.didn't do much. In the sense that, the US has retreated on the
:22:04. > :22:08.international scene, and with Trump it is going to continue being
:22:09. > :22:12.isolationist. So basically there is so much room in part of the world in
:22:13. > :22:17.the Middle East for Russia to play its card and the one is going to
:22:18. > :22:22.stop Vladimir Putin. So this is where, slowly we are slowly getting
:22:23. > :22:26.there. Just to return to the torture point. It now seems to have been
:22:27. > :22:31.shelved but one of the fundamental worries about that, apart from the
:22:32. > :22:36.inhumanity of torture, is that if you torture one person, you may
:22:37. > :22:42.create a thousand others who take the same view. It seems to be a very
:22:43. > :22:46.headline grabbing way of saying something, to talk to his base but
:22:47. > :22:50.something that will offend, not just many people but make many people
:22:51. > :22:55.much more likely to be anti-American? I think that is
:22:56. > :22:59.right, I think torture is always morally wrong, the question now is
:23:00. > :23:03.whether it is effective or not is secondary. I also wonder to what
:23:04. > :23:10.extent these are deliberate ploy is to demonstrate a toughness, that is
:23:11. > :23:14.meant for your political audience rather than for your wider
:23:15. > :23:17.international audience. I have no doubt that the signals from the
:23:18. > :23:22.Trump campaign on that went down well with its domestic audience, and
:23:23. > :23:26.if your primary aim is to get elected, if you remove morale at you
:23:27. > :23:32.from the question, that is a sensible thing to do. Even if it
:23:33. > :23:37.alienates people who are not American citizens outside your
:23:38. > :23:41.country. One question I wonder about Jeff, is the question of Congress
:23:42. > :23:45.and the Republicans in Congress, the Democrats are in a mess in various
:23:46. > :23:49.ways but if you are a Republican in Congress facing the election in two
:23:50. > :23:53.years which is the entire house of representatives, how close would you
:23:54. > :23:57.be to Donald Trump. Would you say, I would better get very close because
:23:58. > :24:03.he's the president and he this mandate. Or would you say, this
:24:04. > :24:08.could come seriously unstuck? Brew so far all of the indications are
:24:09. > :24:16.that the Republicans have made the bed I happily or not. However
:24:17. > :24:23.bizarre his pronouncements or offensive about grabbing the private
:24:24. > :24:27.parts of women. Saved just basically rolled over. The base, the people
:24:28. > :24:36.that voted for them and that they are scared of, to unseat
:24:37. > :24:41.Congressman, they cannot afford to get out of the way. Foreign policy,
:24:42. > :24:46.it probably won't matter a lot, it is Obama care that is perhaps going
:24:47. > :24:51.to matter. Obviously the Republicans are now showing concern, they have
:24:52. > :24:56.said repeated so many times and now they are actually responsible for
:24:57. > :25:00.its becoming Trump care. They lot of the initial proposals would end up
:25:01. > :25:05.on insuring 20 million people who would have terrible sob stories, and
:25:06. > :25:11.against them. Now they are starting to feel the pressure. But Trump to
:25:12. > :25:16.who is not actually really a Republican, he is a deal-maker, will
:25:17. > :25:21.be glad to come up with a compromise and I think there is room for him to
:25:22. > :25:24.work with the Republicans. And all of this stuff about impeachment and
:25:25. > :25:28.all of the horrible things that he is doing, all of these impossible
:25:29. > :25:34.things that he keeps doing, they will not get in his way. Foreign
:25:35. > :25:38.policy is what is worrying as far as the Middle East is concerned.
:25:39. > :25:43.Because foreign policy is bottom of the list, no doubt about that. That
:25:44. > :25:50.would give the Russians freedom to do whatever they want in the region.
:25:51. > :25:58.In fact, they are now running the peace conference in Kazakhstan. And
:25:59. > :26:03.they are the arbiter but they are also, the attackers at the same
:26:04. > :26:08.time. That is how they are perceived in the region. That is it for
:26:09. > :26:14.Dateline London for this extremely busy week, we are back the same time
:26:15. > :26:18.next week, you can of course comment on Twitter. Goodbye.