:00:22. > :00:23.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:24. > :00:25.Donald Trump and the hugely controversial travel ban.
:00:26. > :00:26.Should the President be welcomed in Britain?
:00:27. > :00:28.And Parliament votes to begin the process of leaving
:00:29. > :00:31.the European Union - but what kind of Europe will be
:00:32. > :00:34.in existence in some two or three years' time?
:00:35. > :00:37.My guests today are Jeffrey Kofman, who is a north American journalist,
:00:38. > :00:39.Mina Al-Oraibi, who is a commentator on Arab affairs,
:00:40. > :00:42.Maria Margaronis of The Nation, and Michael Gove, who is a Times
:00:43. > :00:50.If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and
:00:51. > :00:52.quacks like a duck - it's a duck.
:00:53. > :00:54.So Donald Trump's ban - and it is a ban, although
:00:55. > :00:57.apparently temporary - clearly targets people from some
:00:58. > :01:02.The result - demonstrations around the world and political convulsions
:01:03. > :01:05.Is this a political masterstroke however,
:01:06. > :01:08.saying to Trump supporters, you wanted something done
:01:09. > :01:11.about Islamic terrorism, well, here is something?
:01:12. > :01:13.Or is it - as domestic and international critics believe -
:01:14. > :01:26.I would suggest it plays to his own strengths and people who vote for
:01:27. > :01:31.him. It depend where you sit. Request if you a Trump lover, go for
:01:32. > :01:34.it Donald. I think what we really see in the first 15 days of the
:01:35. > :01:39.Trump administration, is what you see is what you got. There are no
:01:40. > :01:43.better angels here, the Trump we saw in the campaign, a businessman, who
:01:44. > :01:49.was a TV celebrity is the Trump in the White House, he is impull Si, he
:01:50. > :01:53.is a bully and he will have his own way, until he pushes it too far. It
:01:54. > :01:59.is just not clear where this takes us, I think it is very easy, if you
:02:00. > :02:03.are not an ardent Trumpite to think this is a really dangerous road he
:02:04. > :02:07.is taking America down. On the people who voted for him. Those
:02:08. > :02:11.people in business, who are like him, will also see this week,
:02:12. > :02:16.although he has fewer headlines in the United Kingdom, that he is
:02:17. > :02:21.planning perhaps to roll back on regulation, on basically on the
:02:22. > :02:24.quote red tape that is tying up Wall Street: How do you reconcile that
:02:25. > :02:29.with the little guy, who he claims to speak for, when he is going to
:02:30. > :02:34.give more power to the titans of Wall Street. The job, I mean
:02:35. > :02:39.something like that. We shall see. Listen, I think that the real take
:02:40. > :02:42.away of these first 15 days is, in my eyes, this is a real test of the
:02:43. > :02:48.resilience of the American democracy. And perhaps, certainly in
:02:49. > :02:55.our lifetimes, it is the biggest test. Can the separation of powers,
:02:56. > :02:59.can the checks and balances of that brilliant constitution, that began
:03:00. > :03:04.in 1789, can they keep this man in check, so that he doesn't become an
:03:05. > :03:09.autocrat? What do you think is made of it in Arab country, because there
:03:10. > :03:14.are which have been targeted. And others which seem to broadly welcome
:03:15. > :03:18.what has been called in other places a Muslim ban, a targeted ban on
:03:19. > :03:21.certain Muslim countries? It has been interesting, of curse the seven
:03:22. > :03:27.countries including in this ban haven't once had one of their
:03:28. > :03:31.citizens actually being responsible for a terror attack in the US. It
:03:32. > :03:36.doesn't make sense. The names of a Muslim ban or not. Specially in in
:03:37. > :03:43.Iraq and Syria and Iran there are non-Muslims who are nationals, so
:03:44. > :03:47.clearly it is not just targeting Muslims and the most populist Muslim
:03:48. > :03:54.countries are not targeted but the reason we are calling it a Muslim
:03:55. > :04:00.ban, that is what Trump promised. He said we will have a shut down on
:04:01. > :04:06.Muslims eninterring -- entering the US. The gulf has strategic reasons
:04:07. > :04:14.for being excited about Donald Trump because of Iran and because of the
:04:15. > :04:18.reality that Iran felt much more emboldened during the Obama regime.
:04:19. > :04:21.I think there is two issues at stake, the strategic interest,
:04:22. > :04:26.strategic interests for the US is to have Iraq stable and strong, and
:04:27. > :04:31.this particular ban on Iraqis who see themselves as really having a
:04:32. > :04:37.wedded destiny with the US a at making sure they can defeat IS in
:04:38. > :04:41.Iraq are banned, this includes army generals fighting on the front line
:04:42. > :04:45.against IS who have their families in the US because they transferred
:04:46. > :04:50.them there for safety. That makes no sense. And then, for the gulf, it
:04:51. > :04:57.doesn't affect them, so they are OK. You turn on the moral impact. I
:04:58. > :05:04.think, again, I hold dual citizen, I an Iraqi and Brit. I think it for
:05:05. > :05:08.the countries who have dual citizens who would benefit, and therefore I
:05:09. > :05:14.think there is something to be said can we accept that Trump or others
:05:15. > :05:18.and we have to admit in the US the visa programme was tampered with
:05:19. > :05:24.from under the days of Obama, treat citizens of the EU for example as
:05:25. > :05:28.two different classes of citizens. That is problematic because it stabs
:05:29. > :05:31.at the heart of what nationalism and citizenship means for people in
:05:32. > :05:36.Europe. It has been a busy two weeks for Donald Trump, hasn't it.
:05:37. > :05:40.It has been a busy two weeks for Donald Trump and nervous two weeks I
:05:41. > :05:46.think for all of us watching. He is careful to play to his bases at the
:05:47. > :05:50.moment. I think the financial deregulation if for those I saw in
:05:51. > :05:55.Washington in the inauguration going to the ball, there for the rich who
:05:56. > :06:00.support him, and I think the Muslim ban, it is for you know his more
:06:01. > :06:04.working class audience, who I think so far, are happy. The things we
:06:05. > :06:12.haven't heard about so much, in this country, are the fact that he had
:06:13. > :06:16.the CEOs or Fiat and Chrysler in. He had small business leaders in. He
:06:17. > :06:22.said to the car manufacturers you make your cars here or we will slap
:06:23. > :06:29.tariffs on them. That plays well. Is that alliance between the wealthy
:06:30. > :06:35.Trump porters and the not so wealthy hold? But on the kind of global
:06:36. > :06:39.picture, do you think that Donald Trump has in his head the
:06:40. > :06:44.possibility of a war with an? I have to say yes. I am not sure whether it
:06:45. > :06:50.is in Donald Trump's head or Steve Bannon's head. His chief adviser.
:06:51. > :06:55.Who holds some very strange ideas, you know, there is this book, that
:06:56. > :07:00.he likes about the cycles of 80 year, we have an apocalypse that
:07:01. > :07:04.remakes the world. I think we are really facing the dismantling of the
:07:05. > :07:08.post World War II order, initially. And I think that is, that is the
:07:09. > :07:16.thing that is most frightening to me. Michael? I think there is a lot
:07:17. > :07:20.of truth in that. Steve banning, -- Bannan, he is essential to
:07:21. > :07:28.understand the White House, he has compared himself to Thomas Cromwell,
:07:29. > :07:33.to Henry VIII's Machiavelli. It tells us about Steve Bannon's style.
:07:34. > :07:35.He regards him as a court intriguer and it tells us something about
:07:36. > :07:39.Trump. He is is a President who thinks and will behave like a
:07:40. > :07:43.monarch, one of the striking things I think about Trump, is if you think
:07:44. > :07:46.of a liberal position, he will always take the opposite. So a
:07:47. > :07:50.liberal position on migration, he is against it. A liberal position in
:07:51. > :07:55.the Middle East. He sides with the regimes which are defiantly ill
:07:56. > :08:01.liberal with Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia sees in him a potential
:08:02. > :08:06.ally, because he's profossil fuels and hostile to Iran, so, you can see
:08:07. > :08:12.that there is an ideology at work there, it is not the sophisticated
:08:13. > :08:15.ideology of previous orders of his office but it speaks as we have
:08:16. > :08:22.heard, to particular constituencies in America. But if he is a monarch
:08:23. > :08:31.he is a 15th century Henry VIII rather than Queen Elizabeth II We
:08:32. > :08:34.have had a reading from a judge in Washington state saying his actions
:08:35. > :08:38.are unconstitutional. In some respects to try to understand him,
:08:39. > :08:43.even though he has deliberately invited comparison with the populist
:08:44. > :08:46.nationalist President of the 19th century Andrew Jackson, he is less
:08:47. > :08:52.like previous President and more like a monarch. And war with Iran?
:08:53. > :08:57.It is not unthinkable, which it might have been a while ago. His
:08:58. > :09:00.first foreign policy in the Middle East stated in his interview in the
:09:01. > :09:06.times and repeated, I think given what happened in the phone call last
:09:07. > :09:11.week with Putin, is to deal with Islamist state. I think his
:09:12. > :09:17.supporters will want him to see, will want to see him do something
:09:18. > :09:23.which deals with Islamic terrorism, we had a seal assault in Yemen which
:09:24. > :09:26.went badly for him and for the people involved, but I think that
:09:27. > :09:34.his first item of business in the Middle East, is to be seen to be
:09:35. > :09:39.winning, his famous phrase, against Islamist terrorists in the shape of
:09:40. > :09:43.Isis. Michael, you have given too much credit, I don't think there is
:09:44. > :09:48.a strategy. It is shoot from the hip. His interaction with the
:09:49. > :09:52.Australian Prime Minister is an example of that. Hanging up on hi
:09:53. > :09:58.him and tweeting your indignation, it is fine to shape up -- shake-up
:09:59. > :10:01.the old order, to do it that way, what does that come accomplish? I
:10:02. > :10:05.guess if you are playing to your base, maybe beating up Australia is
:10:06. > :10:10.a good thing, I don't know, the other thing that I think does come
:10:11. > :10:15.out of this and talking about Iran, China, is that these are new, these
:10:16. > :10:19.are uncharted waters to use the cliche, and I think what you are
:10:20. > :10:23.seeing with a lot of world leaders who would normally stand up with
:10:24. > :10:29.indignation is let us watch where this takes us. I think the point
:10:30. > :10:33.that Michael was raising about terrorism, let's be clear, Al-Qaeda
:10:34. > :10:38.is not the same as IS. What happened in Iraq and Syria that led to the
:10:39. > :10:41.rice of IS is not the same as what is happening in Yemen. It is
:10:42. > :10:45.dangerous if we start to think of the US as taking this broad brush
:10:46. > :10:49.stroke of saying OK, where are the bad guys and we will just, we are
:10:50. > :10:54.going to strike at them, it will be a success, we saw the first very
:10:55. > :10:58.unfortunate attack in Yemen, led to the killing of civilians and US Army
:10:59. > :11:02.personnel. It is dangerous if they are going to take, it is clear there
:11:03. > :11:08.are those sitting in the White House that are looking at the Middle East
:11:09. > :11:12.through this very, very naive or very crude approach of pull out the
:11:13. > :11:19.bad guys and terrorist. It could backfire when it comes to Syria, it
:11:20. > :11:23.in Syria it is more complicated. You see the relationship between Trump
:11:24. > :11:27.and Putin very good. It helps to have Moscow and Washington try to
:11:28. > :11:34.sort out the issues but not in the way that will look at all opponents
:11:35. > :11:38.of Assad are IS and can die. Do any of you think he should not be
:11:39. > :11:43.invited to the United Kingdom? I think he should not have been
:11:44. > :11:47.invited. He should not have been. Having been invited... Now it is
:11:48. > :11:53.difficult. Does it have to be a state visit. It could be an official
:11:54. > :11:57.visit. I thought that Theresa May's trip immediately to Washington was
:11:58. > :12:02.humiliating, and, I mean I felt embarrassed. What should she have
:12:03. > :12:07.done? You have views on it, but what should the Prime Minister of the
:12:08. > :12:11.United Kingdom do, when there is a new democratically elected President
:12:12. > :12:16.of the US. She should wait. We are getting into a whole other can of
:12:17. > :12:28.worms. He wins with Trump because he is anti-EU, as the EU tries to beat
:12:29. > :12:32.her up, she has Trump on her side. I agree there is an impetuosity to
:12:33. > :12:36.Trump, which means sometimes he doesn't act on his own and certainly
:12:37. > :12:40.not in America's broader interest. Because of that, I think it was a
:12:41. > :12:48.good thing for the Prime Minister to go, and the day after she left
:12:49. > :12:53.Washington, the Baltic states and Polish Governments thankeder for
:12:54. > :12:57.securing from the President a guarantee of support for Nato. If
:12:58. > :13:01.the, and I believe the Prime Minister can, she can nudge,
:13:02. > :13:04.encourage or pin down the President on areas like support for Nato, then
:13:05. > :13:12.that has to be a good thing for the west. In terms. He said pledged
:13:13. > :13:17.hundreds % support for Nato can we trust that? You can't say he
:13:18. > :13:24.shouldn't be invited to the United Kingdom. If he is, there will be
:13:25. > :13:27.people who like America, want to see a strong transatlantic arrangement,
:13:28. > :13:31.and really worry that here is going to be the Queen and the President of
:13:32. > :13:35.the US that many people in Britain dislike and it puts the Queen in a
:13:36. > :13:40.difficult position. He will do her job and it will fine. I think the
:13:41. > :13:45.Queen has had to welcome into her home all sorts of people who if she
:13:46. > :13:50.were a few citizen she might not have wanted to invite. She will do
:13:51. > :13:54.it with grace and dignity. Are you going to be working at the Foreign
:13:55. > :13:59.Office as a diplomat? What do you think? It is difficult to disinvite
:14:00. > :14:03.somebody. It doesn't have to be a state visit. Say this is an official
:14:04. > :14:07.visit, there is an important relationship and again we have to
:14:08. > :14:10.remember in Trump, he is not everything that America holds,
:14:11. > :14:16.America is not entirely Trump, when he coming on a state visit it is him
:14:17. > :14:22.being feted. He doesn't need to be feted. There will be massive
:14:23. > :14:25.demonstrations. There will. It was like when George Bush came in and
:14:26. > :14:31.London was in shut down. Imagine what it will be like when Trump
:14:32. > :14:36.comes in? He may end up playing golf in Balmoral. This was an early
:14:37. > :14:40.invitation, I don't think it has happened before that a US President
:14:41. > :14:41.has been invited in the first two week, it smacked of desperation,
:14:42. > :14:44.really. OK, let us move on. Britain voted to out
:14:45. > :14:47.of the European Union - That is the continuing
:14:48. > :14:50.refrain from the government as the Prime Minister tried
:14:51. > :14:52.to encourage more European But with discontent
:14:53. > :14:55.about migration across Europe - could we be witnessing the slow
:14:56. > :14:57.unwinding of the Schengen zone, of the euro, and perhaps
:14:58. > :15:07.even of the EU itself? Do you think, I mean it is going to
:15:08. > :15:11.be a traumatic year,er we have elections in all kinds of place, we
:15:12. > :15:16.have far right candidates who might win, who knows and people who are
:15:17. > :15:19.really opposed within Holland, within France, particularly, France
:15:20. > :15:27.in particular, to the EU itself. I think that the foundations will
:15:28. > :15:31.shake as never before but I suspect that the principles of the direction
:15:32. > :15:36.Europe has been taking will remain, so I think in France, because of the
:15:37. > :15:40.implosion of the Conservative candidate in a corruption scandal,
:15:41. > :15:45.we are likely to have Marine Le Pen in the final two, against probably
:15:46. > :15:50.Mac-Ron, I suspect he will win, he is very strongly pro European, but
:15:51. > :15:55.Marine Le Pen will put in a strong showing. That will really challenge
:15:56. > :16:04.the direction but not fundamentally change it. Somebody will happen in
:16:05. > :16:09.the Netherlands. Maria, from the Greek perspective, the green crisis
:16:10. > :16:13.is not over. There are rumblings from within the Trump administration
:16:14. > :16:21.that theure bro is a jer ran racquet. A way of keeping German
:16:22. > :16:25.exchange rates low. Yes, I wouldn't get too excited ant the latest Greek
:16:26. > :16:31.crisis, I may be wrong but there seems like a recurrence of a set of
:16:32. > :16:37.old symptoms that, the IMF has mephedrone believed the Greek debt
:16:38. > :16:42.is sustainable. The European Commission for political reasons
:16:43. > :16:46.will not you know, reduce the debt, and the IMF according to its rules
:16:47. > :16:49.can't be party to this, if we can hold on until September and if
:16:50. > :16:54.Angela Merkel gets reelected in September as we hope she will, at
:16:55. > :16:58.least I do, then I think things will kind of rumbles on. There is a lot
:16:59. > :17:02.of uncertainty in the Greek Government too, that I have been
:17:03. > :17:07.sending out contradictory signal, that is not new. What about the
:17:08. > :17:11.bigger point. Surely many Greek people thinking not liking the Trump
:17:12. > :17:16.administration but thinking it is a racquet. It has been a racquet. You
:17:17. > :17:20.know, Europe has as we know Europe... It is not necessarily a
:17:21. > :17:24.sustainable racquet for anybody, but the current sort of international
:17:25. > :17:33.crisis could go one of two ways for Europe. Europe is under threat, you
:17:34. > :17:39.know know it is like jokers to left and clowns to the right. It is, we
:17:40. > :17:45.have Trump on the one hand. Putin on the other, interested in dismantling
:17:46. > :17:48.the European Union, supporting ill liberal forces in Europe, and I
:17:49. > :17:55.think geopolitically this could be a moment when Europe has to come
:17:56. > :18:00.together, to resist those forces, you have Erdogan as well where Mrs
:18:01. > :18:05.May went immediately after seeing Trump or it could unravel, that
:18:06. > :18:09.identity for Europe as a political liberal union rather than as a
:18:10. > :18:16.financial economic one might see some sort of revival. How do you see
:18:17. > :18:20.this year for 2017, for the EU? Well, in 2016, February 2016 if you
:18:21. > :18:23.asked me would we have Prime Minister May and President Trump, I
:18:24. > :18:28.would say absolutely to way, so it is very hard to make predictions but
:18:29. > :18:35.I would say absolutely it's going to be a roller-coaster and there are
:18:36. > :18:40.going to be even greater schisms in society emerging,er there those who
:18:41. > :18:44.see the ills of the EU as being greater than the merits of the EU. I
:18:45. > :18:48.would argue that what we have in Europe and having had peace at the
:18:49. > :18:53.heart of Europe, to for over 70 years should not be ignored or taken
:18:54. > :18:57.for granted. I think one of theish issues has been complacency, whether
:18:58. > :19:04.it is in Europe that we may disagree but there is peace, that is a hard
:19:05. > :19:09.one and the EU has been instrumental this. Sometimes it is hard to
:19:10. > :19:14.believe that the EU has won the Nobel Peace Prize. I think what
:19:15. > :19:19.happens in the US affects liberal democracies round the world, we will
:19:20. > :19:23.see this push for ill liberal force, nationalism with an ugly side rather
:19:24. > :19:30.than patriotism coming up, that will affect Europe and how it goes forth.
:19:31. > :19:33.So elections are a, but what happens after elections, we saw the Brexit
:19:34. > :19:38.referendum here and there were huge divisions in society. Nobody has
:19:39. > :19:42.worked out saying how do we still live together and how will Brexit
:19:43. > :19:46.work for Britain's identity going forward? The same is true for
:19:47. > :19:50.Europe, having to think what is the EU like if you have the UK out of it
:19:51. > :19:55.and if you have large numbers of people going out to vote as being
:19:56. > :20:00.against immigrants or being against what EU policy stands for. But the
:20:01. > :20:05.migrant question is at the heart of a lot of it as it was with Brexit,
:20:06. > :20:10.people are fed up. With austerity and they look round and they see a
:20:11. > :20:14.society that is changing rapidly and produces discontent, and whatever
:20:15. > :20:19.the compassion was maybe a few years ago, towards Syria, there is
:20:20. > :20:27.compassion fatigue even in previously liberal countries. You
:20:28. > :20:32.see a problem of absorption, countries resisting, how to absorb
:20:33. > :20:37.massive changes in their pluralistic society. I think to pick up what
:20:38. > :20:41.Mina was saying when we looks at 2017, I think be prepared for the
:20:42. > :20:49.unexpected and I don't know what that is, but when you have bans on
:20:50. > :20:56.Muslims, citizens from seven dominant Muslim nations from the
:20:57. > :21:00.United States, that is a propaganda victory for anti-western,
:21:01. > :21:05.anti-America Muslim force, that mean there's is potentially something or,
:21:06. > :21:12.or there are many things brewing that could unsettle us in terrible
:21:13. > :21:17.ways. We saw the luef attack this week which fortunately was thwarted.
:21:18. > :21:23.This is is a man who governs by playing to our worst, he tweets out
:21:24. > :21:29.jihadists in Paris, six Muslims killed in Quebec city. Not a word.
:21:30. > :21:34.By a white nationalist, Canadian, and Trump says nothing. I mean, you
:21:35. > :21:40.know, this is glaring. This is a man who is playing to our worst. I think
:21:41. > :21:44.there is a stit stick in the Middle East, if that, if you are a young
:21:45. > :21:49.Muslim citizen in the Middle East and you see autocratic ruler,
:21:50. > :21:55.whether in Egypt, Saudi or in the golf, saying this ban is right, it
:21:56. > :22:01.will only drive a sense of rage towards those rulers, wealthy,
:22:02. > :22:05.insulated pro American, not standing up for your Muslim brother, I agree,
:22:06. > :22:11.whatever the intent and America has the right to control its border,
:22:12. > :22:16.what it risks is handing a propaganda victory to those who want
:22:17. > :22:20.to radicalise not unite. They weren't necessarily saying the ban
:22:21. > :22:23.is right. Nuance is important, what they are saying it is a sovereign
:22:24. > :22:27.right, we have done it and they are doing it because as we were saying
:22:28. > :22:33.earlier, it was understandable. They weren't saying it is right, that is
:22:34. > :22:37.what should happen. Gets the approach of these autocrats, I mean,
:22:38. > :22:42.what is wrong with this picture? But also the fact that he would, you
:22:43. > :22:46.know, decide that Syrian refugees have to be stopped indefinitely and
:22:47. > :22:49.there is no charity. The fact we had a -- clarity. People have created a
:22:50. > :22:53.life for themselves in America, holding green cards, not knowing if
:22:54. > :22:57.they can go or not. There is this thing of we will clarify and make
:22:58. > :23:04.exceptions even though they are people who... It may, the, it may by
:23:05. > :23:09.I hate to use the word clarifying, polarising might be a better word,
:23:10. > :23:16.but not in the way we imagine, I am sure that Justin Trudeau is more
:23:17. > :23:21.popular in Canada for differentiating himself from Trump
:23:22. > :23:25.and I suspect in France, they may benefit by becoming the anti-Trump,
:23:26. > :23:33.more than anyone else. I was going to make that point. Supporting
:23:34. > :23:38.Macron wane, supposing the Netherlands, supposing we have
:23:39. > :23:42.another few years of Angela Merkel, the EU itself will still have to
:23:43. > :23:47.change, not just because Britain is pulling out but because of the
:23:48. > :23:51.resentment. The EU has deep problems, the way the euro has
:23:52. > :23:55.worked is a deep problem. We have had this meeting in Malta with
:23:56. > :24:01.rather than talking about the rev GCSEs who are already in Europe, you
:24:02. > :24:06.know, European countries promised to resettled is 00,000 people in
:24:07. > :24:11.September 2015. They have taken 10888. We had three deaths in the
:24:12. > :24:14.camp in Lesbos from the conditions in cold. They are discussing another
:24:15. > :24:18.very difficult issue which is what to do about the people drowning in
:24:19. > :24:22.the Mediterranean, coming across from Libya, but again, the
:24:23. > :24:26.discussion is mostly in terms of how do we protect borders not what do we
:24:27. > :24:33.do about these people, and that is where rage and resentment and
:24:34. > :24:38.justified anger build up. We are missing in that picture, I think you
:24:39. > :24:45.paint accurately, having spent time, is no-one is watching the source.
:24:46. > :24:50.And global policy right now, the geopolitical order is ignoring what
:24:51. > :25:00.the anarchy and Libya, you want to stop the flow? Restore order and, of
:25:01. > :25:08.governance in Libya but nobody.... Dots. But the Trump critique is you
:25:09. > :25:15.threw a rock into a hornet's nest. The Trump view it is the result of
:25:16. > :25:19.people like the British and the French Governments, attempting to
:25:20. > :25:27.virtually signal and create a new regime in Libya. There was a... I
:25:28. > :25:32.supported the intervention. People in America who support him, would
:25:33. > :25:37.say the lesson of intervention it makes things worse not better. I
:25:38. > :25:43.want to second the point. Where is the source, why are people having to
:25:44. > :25:48.leave? Partly because of failures in policies and failures in countries
:25:49. > :25:53.that we can't deny. Targeting the citizens of those countries won't
:25:54. > :25:57.help matters, and a final point, if anyone talks about a war in Iran
:25:58. > :25:59.talk about more refugees. That's it for Dateline
:26:00. > :26:01.London for this week. You can comment on the programme
:26:02. > :26:04.on Twitter @gavinesler We're back next week
:26:05. > :26:08.at the same time -