:00:24. > :00:25.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:26. > :00:28.President Trump's travel ban ruled out by a court -
:00:29. > :00:31.Mr Trump responds with "see you in court."
:00:32. > :00:37.And Russian intervention in Libya - another tactical victory for Putin?
:00:38. > :00:41.Abdel Bari Atwan, who is a writer and broadcaster on Arab affairs,
:00:42. > :00:46.Yasmin Alibhai Brown, the author and commentator,
:00:47. > :00:51.and Vincent Magombe, who is an African commentator.
:00:52. > :00:54.President Trump's own nominee to the US Supreme Court was said
:00:55. > :00:58.to have criticised the president over Mr Trump's attitude to judges -
:00:59. > :01:03.It follows the court's decision to rule out the President's travel
:01:04. > :01:06.ban on people from mostly Muslim countries, and further bitterness
:01:07. > :01:08.between the President and some in Congress.
:01:09. > :01:12.Are these teething troubles - or a sign of how the next four years
:01:13. > :01:14.are likely to be in Washington - with the President attacking
:01:15. > :01:20.the other pillars of the US Constitution?
:01:21. > :01:28.Where do you think we are now? Well, I think, what happened this
:01:29. > :01:32.week is reflective of the fact that Trump clearly has a hazy view of the
:01:33. > :01:36.Constitution, and separation of powers, and the checks and balances
:01:37. > :01:42.that are the hallmark of the US critical system. The appeals court
:01:43. > :01:47.judges sent a strong message to him saying, you cannot invoke national
:01:48. > :01:50.security concerns, do what everyone. Are these teething problems? To some
:01:51. > :01:54.extent, there is some of that going on. Remember when he issued the
:01:55. > :02:00.executive order on immigration, he did not have key appointments in
:02:01. > :02:03.place, and the fact that he has now said that he is considering
:02:04. > :02:08.rewriting the order and making it more narrow, that reflects the fact
:02:09. > :02:12.that would suggest to me that Jeff Sessions has told him, this is too
:02:13. > :02:19.risky, perhaps you need to dial it back, if you really want to make
:02:20. > :02:23.sure to not lose this. But I think that the hallmarks of the Trump
:02:24. > :02:27.presidency seem pretty clear, people who think that he is going to pivot
:02:28. > :02:32.and become more presidential in his style and manner, they are going to
:02:33. > :02:37.be left disappointed. His style is to attack, personally, people on
:02:38. > :02:43.Twitter, judges, corporate executives. There is a real risk to
:02:44. > :02:46.that, going forward. Not only is he tying himself very personally to
:02:47. > :02:52.policy initiatives such as the immigration order, he cannot
:02:53. > :02:57.distance from that or blame other advisers for its failure. But with
:02:58. > :03:02.attacks on judges in his tweets, he seems to be parking blame at their
:03:03. > :03:06.feet, for any possible future terrorist attack, which is very,
:03:07. > :03:10.very dangerous going forward. No one should be surprised that this is how
:03:11. > :03:14.he's carrying himself. This is how he ran his business for years. He
:03:15. > :03:19.was extremely combative, confrontational and litigious as
:03:20. > :03:23.well. I don't think this is going to change. The style will remain the
:03:24. > :03:28.same, he may dial back and adopt more moderate positions. We have
:03:29. > :03:34.seen him do so on certain foreign policy issues, supporting China,
:03:35. > :03:38.Israel and so forth. But I don't think you're going to see a
:03:39. > :03:46.different kind of Trump emerge. What do you think? How has this come
:03:47. > :03:50.down in the Arab countries? The man is barely three weeks into
:03:51. > :04:04.power, and he is creating problems everywhere. Seven Muslim countries,
:04:05. > :04:06.it is pure racism. He picked the countries who never exported
:04:07. > :04:13.terrorism to that part of the world. Honestly. It is amazing, only six
:04:14. > :04:18.terrorist attacks actually happened in the United States from those
:04:19. > :04:23.immigrants living in the United States will stop the second thing
:04:24. > :04:27.is, contradiction. First he wanted Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to
:04:28. > :04:30.pay for the protection, American protection. Now he is phoning them
:04:31. > :04:38.and saying, come with me and fight Iran. He wants to dismantle that
:04:39. > :04:42.nuclear deal. Has that been going down quite well
:04:43. > :04:46.in Saudi Arabia? The Saudis are focused on Iran, that is their
:04:47. > :04:50.number one followed -- foreign policy.
:04:51. > :04:54.He knows these Gulf state countries are very vulnerable. They were
:04:55. > :04:59.always protected by the United States, Obama said, you have to
:05:00. > :05:07.change your strategy, you have to depend on yourself and talk to Iran,
:05:08. > :05:18.solve your problems by talking. We cannot have easy rates. I believe,
:05:19. > :05:25.now with Trump, he is working into the hands and the agendas of Isis,
:05:26. > :05:31.Al-Qaeda and other... Why'd you say that?
:05:32. > :05:35.Because all the Muslims feel vulnerable, and they believe this
:05:36. > :05:43.man actually is coming to attack Muslims and hate Muslims. To create
:05:44. > :05:46.wars that part the world. He is unifying the Shia and the Sunni
:05:47. > :05:54.against the United States. There was a division beforehand. Terrorism
:05:55. > :05:57.used to be a Sunni trademark. He is actually now seeing Iran as a
:05:58. > :06:01.terrorist state. For the first time he managed to unify the Muslim
:06:02. > :06:10.terrorists, the Shia and the Sunni terrorists, to mobilise against the
:06:11. > :06:14.United States. I won't tell you what I think of
:06:15. > :06:19.Trump, I will tell you what Africans think of Trump. Ugandans, for
:06:20. > :06:26.example. He seems to have some African blood, people have said to
:06:27. > :06:33.me. I don't mean the cultures of Africa, that club of dictators in
:06:34. > :06:41.Africa. There has been recently, Facebook, and video that went viral.
:06:42. > :06:45.Trump here, video mean here. The Chirac media meme.
:06:46. > :06:56.The way he used to speak, I am the greatest man on the Earth. This and
:06:57. > :07:01.that. I am very good. There was actually an American satirical
:07:02. > :07:12.programme, they did that come Harrison between Trump and African
:07:13. > :07:22.dictators. -- come Harrison. And when I saw the Compas and, this is a
:07:23. > :07:28.joke. But he is not a joke. No one has
:07:29. > :07:31.seriously challenged his legitimacy. He may have been elected by the
:07:32. > :07:34.American people, but what he is doing and how he's doing it, and I
:07:35. > :07:42.can tell you that personally I believe that all the things he has
:07:43. > :07:49.been seen, being a dictatorial type of person, look at what is happening
:07:50. > :07:55.with the travel ban. I'm sure very soon he will discover that he cannot
:07:56. > :08:06.do it, and he will retract. For example, following Isis on
:08:07. > :08:13.social media. They are celebrating what Trump is seeing.
:08:14. > :08:16.This is the American, we told you they hate us as Muslims, but you
:08:17. > :08:21.never believed us. This is the proof.
:08:22. > :08:25.You raise very important points, and I agree with you. It is not just
:08:26. > :08:29.terrorists coming together, there was a time in the late 1970s and
:08:30. > :08:35.early 80s when America was heated in so many parts of the world, when you
:08:36. > :08:39.are burning the flags. He is taking America back to that place where
:08:40. > :08:48.Americans will not be safe in the world. And because, all Muslims, of
:08:49. > :08:59.whatever view, are feeling the heat. My goodness, we are the next dues,
:09:00. > :09:04.if you like, of the century. They used to laugh about Idi Amin, like
:09:05. > :09:09.they laugh about Trump, which is the biggest mistake. He got the judges
:09:10. > :09:15.first, he hanged judges, then intellectuals, he systematically,
:09:16. > :09:21.then the media, he systematically went for them. This is the modern
:09:22. > :09:24.equivalent. If you are right, and people will
:09:25. > :09:29.disputed, there will be viewers who disputed, but if you are right, then
:09:30. > :09:38.creating that sense of division, it will work, because this is a
:09:39. > :09:41.president, in makes periods, he did not really do anything in terms of
:09:42. > :09:48.bringing the country together, in other words, what has worked very
:09:49. > :09:54.well for him is defining and other people, the enemy abroad. That works
:09:55. > :09:58.for Mr Trump. It works up to a certain accent, but
:09:59. > :10:03.I think he has still got major battles ahead. What we have seen
:10:04. > :10:08.this week is the constitution working, the judicial system has hit
:10:09. > :10:13.back and drink in. The checks and balances are indeed working.
:10:14. > :10:20.Including from his own Supreme Court nominee. That was astonishing,
:10:21. > :10:23.wasn't it? He is clearly a judge who believes in the courts being
:10:24. > :10:28.independent. There are theories about that, that
:10:29. > :10:34.he knows that he needs to come out and distanced himself from what
:10:35. > :10:41.Trump has done. In order to win confirmation. But he has done what
:10:42. > :10:45.nominees have done before their confirmation hearings, make the
:10:46. > :10:55.rounds, among senators, tried to allay fears, tried to reassure them.
:10:56. > :10:57.Trump has denied that he has said this, he apparently told several
:10:58. > :11:03.senators that he was disheartened and found Trump's comments
:11:04. > :11:06.disheartening and demoralising. It is essential for him to distance
:11:07. > :11:10.themselves in order to win approval in the Senate. However, Trump is
:11:11. > :11:13.constantly undermining that, and disagreeing with him.
:11:14. > :11:21.It is interesting in shocking that the Senate in Congress have been
:11:22. > :11:25.much less effective in opposing Trump than have the people, the
:11:26. > :11:31.judiciary, activists. I am so shocked by Paul Ryan. He
:11:32. > :11:40.resisted his own nomination quite vocally. And now he is completely
:11:41. > :11:48.supplicant of Trump. The issue of checks and balances is
:11:49. > :11:53.very important for me because the African dictatorships I am talking
:11:54. > :12:00.about, in Uganda, today the media is being hit, people have rigged
:12:01. > :12:07.elections and so on. The judiciary cannot do it, the media cannot do
:12:08. > :12:14.it, but in America you are blessed with the infrastructure and
:12:15. > :12:22.democracy. I would like to talk about his
:12:23. > :12:32.mobilisation against Iran. Obama and the other five countries, they
:12:33. > :12:41.realised that the cost of war against Iran will be huge, so he
:12:42. > :12:46.topped to the Iranians, and used pressure to reach this nuclear deal.
:12:47. > :12:53.Now he is actually trying to provoke Iran, and you cannot see how the
:12:54. > :13:07.Iranians are responding. They are people of pride, and the mothers are
:13:08. > :13:12.mobilising. You are right. Obama managed to neutralise the Muslim
:13:13. > :13:20.world vis-a-vis America. America was not heated drink Obama's two terms.
:13:21. > :13:27.Trump is reviving this hatred among the Iranians, the Muslims, the
:13:28. > :13:31.Africans, Latin American. He has dialled back his rhetoric on
:13:32. > :13:34.Iran. He vowed on the campaign trail to rip up the deal with Iran, and
:13:35. > :13:42.that does not seem to be happening. He has dialled back a bit.
:13:43. > :13:48.He is imposing sanctions, economic sanctions against certain areas.
:13:49. > :13:51.But the shocking thing was, I was in America in October before the
:13:52. > :13:56.election, the number of Muslims who were backing Trump, shame on them.
:13:57. > :14:02.33% of American Muslims backed this man.
:14:03. > :14:07.It is a challenge, the other thing he presents as a challenge for
:14:08. > :14:09.journalism. When you have got a president who basically says
:14:10. > :14:17.terrorist attacks are not being reported, and the fact our that
:14:18. > :14:21.everyone of those attacks as far as we can see were reported and given a
:14:22. > :14:25.degree of interest by different media outlets, but they were
:14:26. > :14:28.reported. How do you handle someone who says things which are clearly
:14:29. > :14:33.not the case? There has been some talk about we
:14:34. > :14:38.should not be televising these press conferences from Kelly Anne Conway
:14:39. > :14:42.and Trump. We need to fact check them, and you cannot fact check them
:14:43. > :14:48.as they are happening live. It is an incredibly different and difficult
:14:49. > :14:54.position journalists are in. He has threatened them, there is? Will
:14:55. > :14:58.there be space for the quest -- press corps in the White House. It
:14:59. > :15:05.is the constant stream of alternative facts, it is posing new
:15:06. > :15:11.challenges for all of us. And we must not remember the powers
:15:12. > :15:18.behind Trump, Steve Bannon, his vice president, some of the dark forces
:15:19. > :15:24.behind him are very well organised. The types of forces that supported
:15:25. > :15:29.him, very radical, people were ready to damage. I would be more worried
:15:30. > :15:34.about them than Trump himself. I think Trump will be cut short. I
:15:35. > :15:39.don't think that he can really manage to intimidate totally the
:15:40. > :15:47.judiciary. Even the media. I would be surprised if, in America
:15:48. > :15:49.especially, the media is cold. We shall see.
:15:50. > :15:51.Following western intervention in Libya -
:15:52. > :15:53.led by Britain and France - the downfall of Colonel Gaddaffi
:15:54. > :15:55.has produced not one but two Libyan governments.
:15:56. > :15:57.Now Russia has chosen sides in the Libyan conflict,
:15:58. > :15:59.and President Trump, who found time this week
:16:00. > :16:01.to criticise the US department store chain Nordstrom
:16:02. > :16:03.for dropping his daughter's clothing line,
:16:04. > :16:05.has not yet found time to criticise President Putin.
:16:06. > :16:11.Is this another potential victory for Russia?
:16:12. > :16:18.Maybe you could tell us what is actually going on in Libya.
:16:19. > :16:25.Six years ago, there was a state of euphoria in the West. We managed to
:16:26. > :16:32.achieve a huge success. We toppled tyrant. We will make Libya as a
:16:33. > :16:39.model of success in the Middle East. Six years, how has it been? Nobody
:16:40. > :16:43.talks about the situation. The West created it in Libya.
:16:44. > :16:50.Chaotic. It is chaotic.
:16:51. > :16:54.And very dangerous. You have three governments, two
:16:55. > :17:00.parliaments, three armies, militias, no security at all, everybody is
:17:01. > :17:06.fighting everybody, half of the Libyan people emigrate either to
:17:07. > :17:13.Tunisia or to Egypt. About 3 million of them, to look for safety. And a
:17:14. > :17:21.decent way of life. The situation, the West decided to support
:17:22. > :17:26.democracy, so-called democracy. The elected government never actually
:17:27. > :17:33.had the teeth of the clues to impose its force there. There is one
:17:34. > :17:37.general, and this man is the ex-colonel of Libya, he used to work
:17:38. > :17:48.with Gaddafi and was part of his counsel. He defected, and he was
:17:49. > :17:53.actually trained and sent back to fight Gaddafi topple Gaddafi. And he
:17:54. > :18:00.tried to lunch a sort of military campaign from Chad. Now what is
:18:01. > :18:08.happening, this general is backed by Egypt, by the United Arab Emirates,
:18:09. > :18:14.and Russia. Why? He managed to secure the eastern part of Libya,
:18:15. > :18:23.which is the wealthy part. And he managed to root out Isis from that
:18:24. > :18:31.eastern part, and he controls about 80%, or 75% of Libyan oil export, it
:18:32. > :18:37.is coming from that part. The West actually could not do anything, they
:18:38. > :18:46.broke it and they cannot fix it. One thing. Now, one thing. Because
:18:47. > :18:51.you have given us the anti-western analysis. I think it is time to look
:18:52. > :18:56.at Russia. It really is time to look at Russia, what Russia has done in
:18:57. > :19:05.Syria and is about to do in Libya, you have to absolutely focus.
:19:06. > :19:09.Wait till a mention it! Unbelievable.
:19:10. > :19:18.It is very interesting what Russia is doing.
:19:19. > :19:24.The West went to Russia, Italy and Britain. They say to Russia, please
:19:25. > :19:30.save us. We have illegal immigration, 2000 kilometres of the
:19:31. > :19:35.seashore, Libyan territories in the Mediterranean, we cannot do
:19:36. > :19:41.anything, please help us. Moscow invited a man who was received by
:19:42. > :19:50.Putin, Sergey Lavrov, the First Minister, and he had a very fruitful
:19:51. > :19:58.talk. Then they reach an agreement. First to curb all the immigration
:19:59. > :20:01.from Libya, and also to work under the UN backed government of the
:20:02. > :20:07.so-called National Accord government, and to be the leader of
:20:08. > :20:15.the army. What does Russia get?
:20:16. > :20:22.An American lease in Libya. You just have to study this man, and
:20:23. > :20:30.some of us have been in Russia for ten years during Communist times, we
:20:31. > :20:35.know who the KGB and Putin are. This man has succeeded in Syria, making
:20:36. > :20:41.sure that the failure of the West is my game. He is doing exactly the
:20:42. > :20:48.same template in Libya. What he has done is identify this general
:20:49. > :20:52.Khalifa, and what he is doing is look, this man has the military
:20:53. > :20:57.power, he is trying to promote him to become the real leader. The only
:20:58. > :21:03.problem is, with Russia, he does not care the type of commotion, the same
:21:04. > :21:08.template Syria, it does not matter whether the Syrian president is a
:21:09. > :21:17.Democrat or anything like that. If he is a stubborn man.
:21:18. > :21:20.If you look at it, if it is correct, he has cracked down on Isis, he will
:21:21. > :21:25.stop or try to control made it -- migration. There are a lot of people
:21:26. > :21:31.in Europe and will take on that great.
:21:32. > :21:36.The standards by which this man operates should really worry all of
:21:37. > :21:44.us. I totally agree, intervention in Libya and what we did in Iraq, but
:21:45. > :21:49.it is time now to focus on actually this really dangerous and quite evil
:21:50. > :21:57.presence in Putin. And what he did in Syria, what he has done to the
:21:58. > :22:01.people of Syria with Assad is absolutely, it should be the focus
:22:02. > :22:07.of good people. We are talking about Libya, not
:22:08. > :22:14.Syria. Let me talk. The West went to Putin and he did not go to the West.
:22:15. > :22:21.They say to him, come and save us in Libya, we made a mistake, please
:22:22. > :22:26.save us. President Obama said, the gravest
:22:27. > :22:32.mistake which I regret in my two terms, intervention in Libya. They
:22:33. > :22:36.admit that they made mistakes. It was the British and French, who
:22:37. > :22:41.were very proud of it at the time. Where does this leave us? The
:22:42. > :22:45.argument has been, eight years of Obama, he was terrible. America
:22:46. > :22:49.withdrew from the world stage, left this vacuum, Putin said thank you
:22:50. > :22:56.very much, I can solve several problems, Italy, but I can do it.
:22:57. > :23:01.Putin wants to re-establish Russia's dominance, political and military
:23:02. > :23:05.positioning in the region. Russia lost billions of dollars in arms and
:23:06. > :23:11.oil contracts in Libya after Gaddafi was ousted and killed. This is part
:23:12. > :23:17.of Putin's effort to re-establish his geopolitical power in the
:23:18. > :23:22.region. Whether or not Putin backing the general is going to stem the
:23:23. > :23:27.flow of refugees, isn't it going to undermine the stability of the
:23:28. > :23:32.country, the UN peace process, and leave Europe that the cold, because
:23:33. > :23:36.Putin does not care about the flow of refugees into Europe, and neither
:23:37. > :23:41.does Trump. And neither does the general.
:23:42. > :23:45.He has been against European and UN attempt to have that migration and
:23:46. > :23:50.position. But this is also where there is a
:23:51. > :23:57.connection between Trump and Putin. They both seem to admire so-called
:23:58. > :24:02.strongmen leaders, authoritarian people who they view as being able
:24:03. > :24:08.to re-establish order where they see is chaotic regions. However, Trump
:24:09. > :24:12.has not criticised Russia for this. He may not have too. He may not even
:24:13. > :24:20.have to endorse what is happening, he could just turn a blind eye and
:24:21. > :24:23.allow it to happen. The general himself talked about
:24:24. > :24:26.Trump, and he said that, look, because of the war we are carrying
:24:27. > :24:30.out against terrorism, in this region, I think Trump will
:24:31. > :24:35.appreciate that we can work with him.
:24:36. > :24:43.The centre of power is like that, you have a government in triply,
:24:44. > :24:50.backed by Muslim Brotherhood,, and supported by cat or in Turkey. And
:24:51. > :24:53.you have a government which has no power on the ground at all. The
:24:54. > :25:00.Muslim Brotherhood supported government is about to set up a new
:25:01. > :25:08.army, and in order to consolidate its power in the West. The problem
:25:09. > :25:15.is, which we are facing, have to is a very clever man, I hate him
:25:16. > :25:21.personally because of the Langley things, but anyway, what he is
:25:22. > :25:26.doing, he used the immigration card to put pressure on the West, on
:25:27. > :25:31.Britain, Italy France and the United States, saying look, you ignore me,
:25:32. > :25:36.you don't recognise my services, my power, I will use this immigration
:25:37. > :25:42.card against you. And he used it very well. After six years, they
:25:43. > :25:43.throwing the towel, please come and help us.
:25:44. > :25:45.We are to leave it there. That's it for
:25:46. > :25:47.Dateline London for this week. You can comment on the programme
:25:48. > :25:49.on Twitter @gavinesler. We're back next week
:25:50. > :25:52.at the same time.