:00:23. > :00:24.Hello and welcome to Dateline London.
:00:25. > :00:31.This week we discuss the fall-out from the British general election,
:00:32. > :00:34.turmoil heightened by the man-made tragedy that hit London this
:00:35. > :00:42.week, and with Brexit talks about to begin.
:00:43. > :00:45.Also we're looking at the protests in Russia which have put hundreds
:00:46. > :00:49.My guests this week, Ned Temko, the political commentator
:00:50. > :00:57.Annalisa Piras, the Italian filmmaker and broadcaster
:00:58. > :00:59.Stefanie Bolzen of Germany's Die welt and the Russian journalist
:01:00. > :01:09.The British Prime Minister lost her overall majority
:01:10. > :01:12.in the general election and is having to do a deal with MPs
:01:13. > :01:14.from Northern Ireland to stay in Downing Street.
:01:15. > :01:16.Theresa May was criticised during the election campaign
:01:17. > :01:18.for not meeting real people and within a week that
:01:19. > :01:20.criticism has resurfaced because of the government response
:01:21. > :01:26.An entire residential tower block in London was destroyed
:01:27. > :01:28.by fire in one night, but when Theresa May first visited
:01:29. > :01:31.the scene she spoke to members of the emergency services,
:01:32. > :01:44.All this just before the Brexit talks are due to begin.
:01:45. > :01:53.Let's discuss the state of Britain, of British politics.
:01:54. > :01:58.Ned, Theresa May, specifically, can she and will she survived this? If
:01:59. > :02:02.we had had this conversation a couple of days ago I would have said
:02:03. > :02:06.to McCready is, probably, yes. Not least because her main strength is
:02:07. > :02:10.that anybody who wants her job within the Conservative Party would
:02:11. > :02:14.have to have his or her head examined to want the job under these
:02:15. > :02:19.circumstances. You're going into Brexit negotiations which will be at
:02:20. > :02:25.least difficult and possibly more than difficult, so there is a
:02:26. > :02:32.communal self-interest among Tories in keeping her there for a while.
:02:33. > :02:37.What has changed is, as you say, the response or the utter tone deaf
:02:38. > :02:44.nature of her response to this fire. It drew on a lot of the criticism
:02:45. > :02:47.she attracted during the election campaign and it is utterly
:02:48. > :02:52.unpredictable. If she lasts, let's say, a week, I still give her two
:02:53. > :02:56.years, but it is all very fluid now and reminds me a little bit of the
:02:57. > :03:01.atmosphere on the final days of Maggie Thatcher after the poll tax
:03:02. > :03:06.riots. Politics is about a narrative, once your narrative as a
:03:07. > :03:12.leader or politician changes, that is a very difficult for to escape.
:03:13. > :03:15.But more than anything, her narrative was I am strong and
:03:16. > :03:21.stable, instead she is showing to the people of Britain that she is
:03:22. > :03:26.not strong, not stable, not even compassionate. She is unable to meet
:03:27. > :03:29.the people that have lived through a tragedy and hope them, like Jeremy
:03:30. > :03:35.Corbyn did. Not only has she lost the narrative but she is unable to
:03:36. > :03:38.provide another one. They might not want a hug, but they clearly want
:03:39. > :03:46.answers, people clearly feel that the answers have not been given. The
:03:47. > :03:49.overall feeling in London is that the Government is losing control of
:03:50. > :03:53.too many things. The Brexit talks are starting on Monday and we have
:03:54. > :03:57.no idea, in Brussels they have no idea what the British Government
:03:58. > :04:03.wants to achieve in these negotiations. Which is fine because
:04:04. > :04:07.the Government has no idea either! Everything has changed because of
:04:08. > :04:13.the election, everything is up in the hour. Maybe a softer Brexit. The
:04:14. > :04:18.very Eurosceptic Tories in the parliament still dominate talks? At
:04:19. > :04:23.the same time, you might think the easy as things go wrong, which is
:04:24. > :04:27.show compassion. I was there, I spent the next three days actually
:04:28. > :04:31.near the tower, I was there on Thursday morning when she arrived
:04:32. > :04:34.and I told the people that the Prime Minister was here and they said,
:04:35. > :04:39.where was she, we did not see her, why didn't she come to see us? She
:04:40. > :04:44.went again on Friday to try to do it better and it completely went wrong.
:04:45. > :04:50.Her argument being that she met firefighters and emergency services.
:04:51. > :04:54.It is the easiest thing for such professional people in Downing
:04:55. > :04:58.Street, in terms of PR, to stage a visit. What is your reading of that?
:04:59. > :05:02.The criticism throughout the election campaign, and then there
:05:03. > :05:07.was this, by all accounts, very strong performance in front of her
:05:08. > :05:11.own party, we call at the 1922 committee, the committee of
:05:12. > :05:14.backbench Conservative MPs, MPs were coming out of that meeting saying,
:05:15. > :05:17.my goodness, if she behave that while during the election campaign
:05:18. > :05:23.we would not be in this position. They were really bolstered by this.
:05:24. > :05:27.There were no lessons learned. That is when she can control the
:05:28. > :05:30.situation. The situation out there with people being devastated,
:05:31. > :05:36.helpless, hopeless, waiting for news four days and nights in the heat,
:05:37. > :05:41.outside, homeless, that is the situation she cannot control and she
:05:42. > :05:46.could not handle it, she did not go, she is scared. I do not agree at all
:05:47. > :05:50.with the effect of the Grenfell Tower fire on her position.
:05:51. > :05:56.Unfortunately her weakness was in dealing with terrorist attacks. She
:05:57. > :06:03.was a former Home Secretary. She was actually in charge of dealing with
:06:04. > :06:08.terrorism. For six years. The Russians warning the West, and
:06:09. > :06:12.Britain as well, for many years after the first Chechen conflict
:06:13. > :06:18.started, the dangers of Islamic terrorism spreading quickly. Nobody
:06:19. > :06:22.paid any attention, Russia was pilloried and criticised by dealing
:06:23. > :06:29.with this threat. This problem basically swept into the West.
:06:30. > :06:33.Instead of uniting with Russia in dealing with this threat, because
:06:34. > :06:39.Russia was dealing with the threat in the sense that it was banning the
:06:40. > :06:43.NGOs that are helping finance terrorist activity, banning
:06:44. > :06:49.charities, which prosper here. Look at them, they are collecting money
:06:50. > :06:54.from disillusioned people and then fund them into organisations like
:06:55. > :06:59.the Muslim Brotherhood. Specifically in the UK? Everywhere across the
:07:00. > :07:08.West, it is a major issue. We are seeing that she did not respond,
:07:09. > :07:17.and... Well to the attacks. In Manchester, a devastating attack,
:07:18. > :07:20.children are blown up. The people who run everything in Manchester the
:07:21. > :07:25.next day said they would not tolerate hate crimes. It is a fair
:07:26. > :07:31.point, but not at its time. It is offensive to people. The unexpected
:07:32. > :07:35.general election, Theresa May and big Conservatives came out with a
:07:36. > :07:39.reduced majority, and expected at the beginning. The vote was not to
:07:40. > :07:43.do with terrorism, it is people having had enough of austerity?
:07:44. > :07:49.Terrorism is a major issue for the West. The West has not been dealing
:07:50. > :07:54.with it. Alexander, you say the West should do it the way of Putin and
:07:55. > :07:58.they would tackle terrorism? Are you serious? I am serious about adopting
:07:59. > :08:02.some of the strategies. You just had a major conflict between Western
:08:03. > :08:06.allies, the Arab countries, that have turned against Qatar for
:08:07. > :08:14.allegedly supporting terrorism in the West as well. This shows is that
:08:15. > :08:21.the Western governments do not have a national security policy which
:08:22. > :08:26.works. What they are doing... Italy has not had one single terror
:08:27. > :08:31.attack. That is one country. And they are applying a different
:08:32. > :08:37.attitude to security which is probably needed. They are an
:08:38. > :08:42.exception. It is not an exception. Explain why you feel Italy has
:08:43. > :08:45.managed that? I do not feel, it is a fact, Italy is the only major
:08:46. > :08:50.European country which has not suffered a set -- suffered a terror
:08:51. > :08:54.attack. There are theories why this is happening, one is that because
:08:55. > :08:58.Italy has been to the 70s and 80s in dealing with terrorism in a very
:08:59. > :09:04.constant daily way, they have found a way of controlling the territory
:09:05. > :09:09.which means that possible suspects are identified and removed and even
:09:10. > :09:12.deported even before they start becoming radicalised, which is
:09:13. > :09:16.different from what they are doing in France and Britain where they
:09:17. > :09:20.tend to have a surveillance, you cannot survey people like that
:09:21. > :09:26.because there are too many. You need to have something much more
:09:27. > :09:30.preventative and... At the start of the process of radicalisation. They
:09:31. > :09:37.are afraid of touching them in Britain, that is the problem. Can I
:09:38. > :09:42.intervene quickly? In defence of the British security forces and the
:09:43. > :09:45.American security forces, it is always difficult in a democracy
:09:46. > :09:52.under the rule of law to control terrorism. The miraculous thing, I
:09:53. > :09:55.have covered this for a long time, is not how many major terrorist
:09:56. > :10:03.attacks that have been since 9/11 but how few. The security forces
:10:04. > :10:07.don't get everything right but it is not... This portrait of us are
:10:08. > :10:13.hapless inability to deal with terrorism is just not real. We will
:10:14. > :10:17.continue to debate the reasons why the Conservatives have reduced
:10:18. > :10:22.majority, terrorism may be a factor, but we are where we are, as
:10:23. > :10:26.politicians are fond of saying, we are a matter of days away, depending
:10:27. > :10:30.on when you're watching bits, from those Brexit talks finally getting
:10:31. > :10:36.under way. Stefanie, your reading this? Interestingly, I talked to
:10:37. > :10:43.some people yesterday in Brussels, senior officials, the mood in
:10:44. > :10:48.Brussels is very conciliatory. The first thing on the agenda is the
:10:49. > :10:52.very difficult question of EU citizens' writes, what will happen
:10:53. > :10:56.with the 3.5 million European citizens currently living in the UK
:10:57. > :11:00.and more than a million on the continent? Who will guarantee their
:11:01. > :11:04.rights? From the European perspective it has to be the
:11:05. > :11:08.European Court of Justice, from the perspective of Mrs May this is
:11:09. > :11:12.non-negotiable. Interestingly, I have not heard anybody in Brussels
:11:13. > :11:19.saying loudly that this is a red line, I think what they are saying
:11:20. > :11:22.is we need to get this done now, just sit down and negotiate. There
:11:23. > :11:26.is an urgency in this, there needs to be a settlement on the money and
:11:27. > :11:31.the people as soon as possible because we are already in a state in
:11:32. > :11:35.Europe, especially in the UK, that is very dangerous. Up the great
:11:36. > :11:38.political News of the week was that both France and Germany have said
:11:39. > :11:45.something very important, they have said the door is open if you want to
:11:46. > :11:50.do a reflection, a reversal, as they are starting to call it, the door is
:11:51. > :12:01.open. This is the key news of this week, because... Is it not wishful
:12:02. > :12:05.thinking? If there is a possibility of rethinking again it has to be
:12:06. > :12:10.done before the end of the two year process. The window of opportunity
:12:11. > :12:14.is very, very small. Once you have dismantled everything there is no
:12:15. > :12:22.way you can reopen it. There is a thinking that says, OK, Britain is
:12:23. > :12:26.in chaos, they are now calling London Chaos On Thames. It is
:12:27. > :12:31.serious on the economic front, it is the slowest growing economy in
:12:32. > :12:38.Europe, inflation is rising, prices are rising, investment is going
:12:39. > :12:45.away, wages are going down... You are describing France, by the way,
:12:46. > :12:51.word for word. France, politically, is the most successful political
:12:52. > :12:55.landscape at the moment, OK? Economically, it is a disaster,
:12:56. > :13:00.meltdown, it is bankrupt. There is a strong political landscape and a
:13:01. > :13:05.strong president, in Britain we have a hung parliament, no majority, a
:13:06. > :13:14.leader angering the entire country. In France they have nobody... My
:13:15. > :13:20.point is there is a lot of thinking in Europe that we might get very
:13:21. > :13:26.fast to appoint in which Britain should show that pragmatism
:13:27. > :13:31.sometimes can trump pride. Do you mean not going ahead with leaving
:13:32. > :13:35.the EU? There are people inside the EU who have always wanted that, it
:13:36. > :13:40.does not mean we will get it. People are expecting Britain to show
:13:41. > :13:44.realism. It might be that two years down the line, when the deal is on
:13:45. > :13:49.the table and it is clear that it is a disastrous deal because there is
:13:50. > :13:54.no way of making Brexit a success, if the deal is really disastrous and
:13:55. > :13:57.in the meantime the economy of Britain is crushed, is it wise and
:13:58. > :14:06.pragmatic to say to the people do we really want to do this? I think you
:14:07. > :14:11.are absolutely right, it is probably impossible, politically, to reverse
:14:12. > :14:14.Brexit. But I think a fudge becomes possible for the first time, it
:14:15. > :14:20.depends on how the two years of talks go. With respect, Alexander,
:14:21. > :14:24.all the polling done about the election so far does not suggest
:14:25. > :14:29.this was about terrorism, it suggests it was about the
:14:30. > :14:33.disproportionate participation of young people, including young people
:14:34. > :14:41.angry and a little bit remorseful, about the Brexit vote. The economy
:14:42. > :14:45.is shifting, the political landscape is shifting. You are living in La La
:14:46. > :14:51.Land, Britain is one of the strongest economies in the EU. Italy
:14:52. > :14:59.is nearly bankrupt. France is in meltdown. Portugal is... Fag God for
:15:00. > :15:05.Russia! How can you sit here with straight faces and talk about
:15:06. > :15:11.Britain and meltdown? -- thank God for Russia! The money would go down
:15:12. > :15:18.at once. The reason why Theresa May is not able to start the process
:15:19. > :15:23.properly, she does not want to. The people feel she is reluctant. The
:15:24. > :15:29.only way to deal with the EU is to walk away and say if you don't go
:15:30. > :15:34.with our terms, we are walking away and you are finished. You are living
:15:35. > :15:41.in La La Land, Alexander! The EU is desperate for Britain to stay. Who
:15:42. > :15:47.do you speak to in the EU who tells you that? Every single they make,
:15:48. > :15:52.please come back! They were saying effectively, hurry up and get on
:15:53. > :15:58.with it. The EU is crumbling, financially, it is finished. The EU
:15:59. > :16:03.is stronger than a few months ago. They are pumping ?80 billion every
:16:04. > :16:08.month into the markets. The ECB, if it stops the quantitative easing...
:16:09. > :16:14.This is fake news! Done is take this down that route exhalation Mac
:16:15. > :16:19.Stefanie, one way or another, no matter what anyone thinks, what do
:16:20. > :16:24.you pick on? Annalisa talks about Chaos On Thames, if we have a
:16:25. > :16:28.leadership election later this year if the Conservative Party changes
:16:29. > :16:29.its leader, if we have a new British Prime Minister, does that play into
:16:30. > :16:40.this? I can only speak for people in
:16:41. > :16:43.Germany. They see it as a problematic situation politically
:16:44. > :16:48.because as you said, politically reversing Brexit is difficult. With
:16:49. > :16:53.big parties, the Tories and Labour, have said, we want Brexit. It has to
:16:54. > :16:58.be implemented because it is the will of the people. This is
:16:59. > :17:02.democracy. Within the next month, is turning around and saying, it is
:17:03. > :17:08.democracy but we're not going to do it, that is a very difficult job to
:17:09. > :17:11.do politically. We approach the coming weeks, the beginning of the
:17:12. > :17:14.tog Stark you are seeing the first stage might not be so bad because
:17:15. > :17:20.you touched on the issue of citizens' rights, but thereafter it
:17:21. > :17:24.gets tricky? Yes. The EU has very clear guidelines. The unified on
:17:25. > :17:29.this for the time being. The departure than the future framework.
:17:30. > :17:33.We have to find an agreement on EU citizens rights. And the Northern
:17:34. > :17:35.Irish border. These issues are sensitive. They have only a couple
:17:36. > :17:49.of months to sort them out and only start talking about free
:17:50. > :17:51.trade. There has to be big political will from both sides to compromise,
:17:52. > :17:54.otherwise it will fail. Complicated by the fact that there is not a
:17:55. > :17:56.settled view within a very vulnerable British government. There
:17:57. > :18:01.is not, but at the same time, they have put out lots of red lines. They
:18:02. > :18:14.do not have a strong view but they have lots of red lines. Red lines
:18:15. > :18:18.which were posited on a landslide victory and her having a strong
:18:19. > :18:21.hand. The position has changed. That is true. We will see what awaits us
:18:22. > :18:22.in the coming weeks. Let's turn our attention is to do is continuing
:18:23. > :18:23.anti-corruption demonstrations across Russia.
:18:24. > :18:25.Hundreds of people have been put in prison.
:18:26. > :18:27.President Putin seems determined to stamp out protest -
:18:28. > :18:31.but the calls for him to stand down, and for an end to what many see
:18:32. > :18:33.as blatant corruption by those in authority continue.
:18:34. > :18:42.Alexander, what is going on in your country?
:18:43. > :18:47.Well, the protests against corruption, and corruption is an
:18:48. > :18:53.issue in Russia, but it is an issue across the world. In India, China,
:18:54. > :18:59.everywhere else. The problem is, they deserve a reception that Alexei
:19:00. > :19:04.Navalny, who was detained, is some sort of the leader of an opposition,
:19:05. > :19:09.which is not really an opposition. It is a tiny group of people. The
:19:10. > :19:14.reason why he was detained, that was not mentioned here, what they did,
:19:15. > :19:20.they were given official permission to stage a demonstration in a
:19:21. > :19:26.specific area of Moscow. He was detained during the protest. No,
:19:27. > :19:30.before the protest. Arrows before the demonstration, he announced to
:19:31. > :19:36.his supporters, let's hijack a celebration of Russia Day outside
:19:37. > :19:41.the Kremlin. What happened, these people infiltrated the celebration.
:19:42. > :19:46.It was massive, in the centre of Moscow, children, with their parents
:19:47. > :19:51.and grandfathers and grandmothers. They were celebrating this party.
:19:52. > :19:56.Suddenly these people appear in between them and started shouting,
:19:57. > :20:01.down with Putin, down with corruption. The police had to
:20:02. > :20:07.interfere. It was turning into chaos. The interesting thing is, the
:20:08. > :20:11.reasonable... A very respected member of the opposition, he
:20:12. > :20:16.denounced this. He denounced Alexei Navalny and said, you cannot do
:20:17. > :20:23.this, you cannot hijack peaceful manifestations with violent thugs
:20:24. > :20:29.and put these people in danger. That man who said that is a critic of
:20:30. > :20:33.Putin. We have seen protests all over the country. They pose no
:20:34. > :20:36.danger to the regime. Why are hundreds of people in prison? They
:20:37. > :20:42.are all out already. Tiny numbers were kept for a day or two. Under
:20:43. > :20:47.what charges? There were attacks on police and so on, the usual stuff,
:20:48. > :20:53.like when the students rioted here. There was a problem when they put
:20:54. > :21:01.200 in prison. You can see from the pictures who they are. They were not
:21:02. > :21:05.thugs. Some of them were 17. They have lived all their life under
:21:06. > :21:12.Putin. 17 years under par, since 2000. In France, the elected a
:21:13. > :21:17.nobody. Nobody knew who years. We have covered that. Compare. They did
:21:18. > :21:23.not allow any protests in France. They stated, we have a state of
:21:24. > :21:29.emergency. Which you were in favour of, tougher against anti-terrorist.
:21:30. > :21:33.Anti-terrorism Alexei Navalny's major point to the people of Russia.
:21:34. > :21:38.Alexei Navalny criticises the West for allowing this flood of people
:21:39. > :21:43.with alien cultures. That is his words, not mine. Can I come back and
:21:44. > :21:48.hijack for a second? This is important. You know what Alexei
:21:49. > :21:56.Navalny said about Muslim immigrants coming to Russia. We all know this.
:21:57. > :22:01.Let's hear from him. He is also a former Moscow correspondent. He is
:22:02. > :22:07.not in a position... How do you know Russia? Russia is different now. I
:22:08. > :22:12.believe Putin had nothing to do with the Soviet Union. Let the record
:22:13. > :22:14.show, not with the KGB either. One of the wonderful things about
:22:15. > :22:21.discussions like this is how familiar it is too living in the
:22:22. > :22:25.Soviet Union for three years, because I will just ask a respectful
:22:26. > :22:30.question. Do you think one reason for the size, you say these are
:22:31. > :22:35.small demonstrations, might be because there is a proven record,
:22:36. > :22:40.and forget this particular demonstration, that if you show
:22:41. > :22:44.public opposition to Vladimir Putin, you are almost certain to get
:22:45. > :22:49.arrested, you're likely to suffer economically, you may even lose your
:22:50. > :22:53.life? That is probably a disincentive to public opposition.
:22:54. > :22:58.That is a cliche that you as a former correspondent in the Soviet
:22:59. > :23:03.Union would say on and on. Times have changed completely in Russia.
:23:04. > :23:08.There is an opposition in the newspapers, oligarchs are being sent
:23:09. > :23:14.to prison. Show me a banker in America who went to prison? Why had
:23:15. > :23:18.the Russian paper that reported on the Panama Papers, Russian people
:23:19. > :23:22.very close to Putin involved in corruption, why is that paper, the
:23:23. > :23:27.editor in chief was fired and it has been bought by an oligarch in
:23:28. > :23:34.Russia? So what? You have oligarchs in Europe. If you are critical, you
:23:35. > :23:39.will not last long in Russia. What are you telling me? The price in
:23:40. > :23:44.every country does what it is told. That may be news for you but that is
:23:45. > :23:50.how it is. The BBC is the only one left. If you have an owner like
:23:51. > :23:53.Murdoch, you do what he tells you, you do not write wonderful things
:23:54. > :24:01.about something that you think about it. There is freedom of the price in
:24:02. > :24:07.Britain. Russia is a massive country. You cannot hold it together
:24:08. > :24:12.with the pussyfooting president. It is an enormous country under attack
:24:13. > :24:19.from all sides. What does this mean for next year, for Putin, back to
:24:20. > :24:26.you? I predict Putin will win, one way or another. It is interesting,
:24:27. > :24:33.on one hand uses Alexei Navalny is a nobody. For a nobody, the Russian
:24:34. > :24:39.and Putin personally do try awfully hard, for instance, to prevent him
:24:40. > :24:43.from standing against Putin admixture's election. If he is such
:24:44. > :24:48.an irrelevancy, who cares? You're forgetting one thing. Alexei
:24:49. > :24:51.Navalny, in a sense, ye suits the Kremlin. He is keeping those
:24:52. > :24:57.oligarchs and those corrupt officials on their toes. Show me one
:24:58. > :25:03.person in America who will be allowed to show a film about a
:25:04. > :25:10.corrupt minister, Senator, and accused him of corruption? Only one?
:25:11. > :25:14.You have no one, not a single one. Your papers are quiet. They are
:25:15. > :25:21.saying things that are not really important. Whatever. In a sense,
:25:22. > :25:25.Alexei Navalny sits Putin. Putin will win the election. When Bush was
:25:26. > :25:30.in power, anyway, this is very entertaining. It should be
:25:31. > :25:34.entertaining. It is Saturday. When someone says that freedom of the
:25:35. > :25:40.press in Russia is the same in Britain, that is very funny. It is
:25:41. > :25:45.so outrageous you should just laugh. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
:25:46. > :25:52.Here, I do not see ministers being bashed. An independent journalist
:25:53. > :25:54.was killed in Russia. Regrettably, on that sad reminder, we will have
:25:55. > :25:57.to leave it for this week. Do join us again next week
:25:58. > :26:34.same time same place. Hello. We are seeing a big leap in
:26:35. > :26:38.temperatures compared with yesterday. Temperatures are expected
:26:39. > :26:45.to get to the high 20s in some areas today. Not surprising we are seeing
:26:46. > :26:46.plenty of sunshine, strong sunshine across the southern half of the