:00:23. > :00:26.Hello and welcome to Dateline London, I'm Jane Hill.
:00:27. > :00:30.This week we ask, what are the advantages of Brexit?
:00:31. > :00:34.We look at Donald Trump's stalled plans to reform Obamacare,
:00:35. > :00:40.and we discuss the ever increasing problem of migrants to Europe.
:00:41. > :00:45.My guests are: the conservative commentator Alex Deane,
:00:46. > :00:49.the Middle East expert Rachel Shabi, Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt,
:00:50. > :00:51.and the American writer and broadcaster Jef Mcallister.
:00:52. > :01:03.The second round of Brexit talks were held this week -
:01:04. > :01:05.for four days at the end of which both sides
:01:06. > :01:12.as robust, and Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator said more
:01:13. > :01:14.clarity was required from the British side
:01:15. > :01:21.Some conservatives in this country are beginning to talk of a
:01:22. > :01:23.transition period. There will be further talks
:01:24. > :01:26.at the end of August. Certainly in the UK the advantages
:01:27. > :01:29.of leaving - or remaining - Let's take some time to discuss
:01:30. > :01:44.them. I think it is extraordinary
:01:45. > :01:47.rhetoric. I know we will not have a discussion like that today! A
:01:48. > :01:51.majority of the country voted to leave the EU, imagine having such
:01:52. > :01:58.contempt for your fellow countrymen that you would use such a turn. If
:01:59. > :02:04.Remain won, I would not refer to them like that. After four days of
:02:05. > :02:08.talks, what is your reading of it? It's a two year process, at the
:02:09. > :02:10.beginning people posture and pose on both sides and people set out the
:02:11. > :02:34.very highest points of their stores, they know
:02:35. > :02:36.that you will go inwards to a convergent point so you want to
:02:37. > :02:39.stretch things as far as possible. The fact that there are a lot of
:02:40. > :02:42.good mood musics, they get on on a personal level, Michel Barnier and
:02:43. > :02:44.David Davis, and they have a history where they understand each other a
:02:45. > :02:47.bit. My instinct is, good start. This will emerge quite quickly, a
:02:48. > :02:49.good outcome is in the interests of both countries and Europe. So far,
:02:50. > :02:52.we have been looking at Britain as being the odd one out. And a
:02:53. > :02:54.character we want to get rid of, that's the wrong perspective. Europe
:02:55. > :02:57.will be very interested in making sure that this is an amicable
:02:58. > :03:02.separation which does not destroy the network of connections and trade
:03:03. > :03:06.relations, and in the end, I think I predict quite an acceptable outcome
:03:07. > :03:12.for both camps, as it were. I do not buy this adversarial atmosphere
:03:13. > :03:14.which still reigns over the negotiations. I think that
:03:15. > :03:22.eventually, we only have 18 months left. But mindful had to accept
:03:23. > :03:27.themselves here! It is not long. -- both minds. This will have to be
:03:28. > :03:30.positive, aside from the money and separation issue, and the divorce
:03:31. > :03:35.Bill, that needs to be resolved as there is a lot of anger attaching
:03:36. > :03:41.itself to money. There really is, there has been so much focus. Do you
:03:42. > :03:49.have focus that that is an inevitable sticking point that will
:03:50. > :03:54.work out. Why is there so much anger? That people who voted to
:03:55. > :04:00.leave did not realise it would be a thing? It's inevitable the subject
:04:01. > :04:05.arises, we get more than we put out, a lot of money goes from the UK
:04:06. > :04:08.every year. The second largest net contributor to the EU is about to
:04:09. > :04:12.leave, of course it was going to be an issue that after 40 years in
:04:13. > :04:16.partnership, I do not normally seared phrase like this but there is
:04:17. > :04:20.something slightly grubby about trying to grab the pennies, as that
:04:21. > :04:29.group goes out the door. If it was right for us to join in the first
:04:30. > :04:32.place, we could discuss that if you want, I am convinced it is no longer
:04:33. > :04:35.right for us to be here now but if we could part as friends and have a
:04:36. > :04:37.reasonable relationship thereafter, it seems the shouting over a set
:04:38. > :04:40.amount of money, whatever the amount of money comes to be, is somehow
:04:41. > :04:43.losing side of the broader picture of the relationship between our
:04:44. > :04:47.country and the European friends and partners for generations to come. If
:04:48. > :04:55.you'd think from that perspective, the demands for at the end will be a
:04:56. > :05:00.relatively small amount of money, but that is short-sighted. I hope we
:05:01. > :05:02.can come back to that. Jeff and Rachel, I'm interested in how you
:05:03. > :05:07.are portraying that and what people are making a bit elsewhere, as
:05:08. > :05:13.various European nations continue to battle it out? For me, it is
:05:14. > :05:19.interesting, the way that it has been portrayed is, of course, shaded
:05:20. > :05:26.by people's positions. Quite emphatically. We saw some of that
:05:27. > :05:29.last week. It is a concern, I do not think we can deny that, however much
:05:30. > :05:36.goodwill we think that there is or there should be between EU and the
:05:37. > :05:41.UK in this negotiation. It does seem clear that the people charged with
:05:42. > :05:46.the negotiation are not equipped to do so. Now, I do not... In a
:05:47. > :05:53.practical sense? They clearly did not think on it before, they did not
:05:54. > :05:55.have a plan. I do not think they are constitutionally, or in terms of
:05:56. > :05:59.their personality, very well equipped to deal with it. They do
:06:00. > :06:05.not seem to be good negotiators all seem to think about what is best for
:06:06. > :06:13.Britain... Which is, of course, we want to leave in jobs and the
:06:14. > :06:16.economy, the environment, environmental protections,
:06:17. > :06:20.employment protections for the UK, that should be front and centre of
:06:21. > :06:23.their thinking. In looking at the way negotiations are going, it
:06:24. > :06:29.clearly does not seem to be the case. I think it is OK... I do not
:06:30. > :06:33.think it is OK for people who want to remain to disparage those who
:06:34. > :06:40.voted to leave in this way. But I do think that it is OK to say that
:06:41. > :06:45.actually, if the mood does shift, because this does seem intractable
:06:46. > :06:52.and impossible, it is perfectly acceptable for politicians to be
:06:53. > :06:57.sensitive and responsive to that. Four days into the negotiation, I
:06:58. > :07:02.cannot see how you definitively say what you are saying, you say what
:07:03. > :07:06.you want to see... I began by saying it is too early to say how it was
:07:07. > :07:11.going and you say, but obviously all of this is not working. It has been
:07:12. > :07:15.a year and we haven't heard of any progress since we decided to leave.
:07:16. > :07:26.We are starting negotiations soon and I would agree with you... It is
:07:27. > :07:30.nice to hear the good mood music that at the practicalities are going
:07:31. > :07:33.to overwhelm the project. The fundamental differences will have to
:07:34. > :07:42.reassert themselves, will there be free movement of people? Will there
:07:43. > :07:46.not? Will there be re-entry into the Common Market, on a wholesale basis
:07:47. > :07:52.or sector by sector? Where everybody gets a veto? The Financial Times
:07:53. > :07:56.recorded that there were 750 individual treaties that the UK
:07:57. > :08:02.needs to renegotiate with third parties just to get back to a
:08:03. > :08:08.standing start. There are food safety points, the movement of
:08:09. > :08:12.atomic products, a giant number of vocabularies that need to be
:08:13. > :08:17.carefully pulled a -- pulled apart. In the middle of this, a lot of
:08:18. > :08:21.people in Europe end up getting a veto over specific details. It is
:08:22. > :08:27.showing a softening of interest in the hard Brexit, and the banks and
:08:28. > :08:31.foreign companies are now beginning to get space in Frankfurt and
:08:32. > :08:36.Dublin, and big banks putting money down for 50 private school spaces
:08:37. > :08:41.because they expect more people. This will not be easy, and all of
:08:42. > :08:47.these transitional arrangements are not clear yet. All of these
:08:48. > :08:50.businesses need certainty. We are at the point where people make
:08:51. > :08:53.decisions for the point where this was already going to be done and
:08:54. > :08:56.nobody knew what this would be like, I think all of the barnacles will
:08:57. > :09:02.get thicker and thicker, and it will feel like a dumb idea. OK, you said
:09:03. > :09:07.earlier, at the risk of rerunning the referendum campaign, from here,
:09:08. > :09:12.where we are now, what are the key benefits going to be? Once this is
:09:13. > :09:17.done, from your perspective, what will be better? They are as we were
:09:18. > :09:22.a year ago, we can govern ourselves in the way a sovereign nation can
:09:23. > :09:26.do, and we currently can't within the EU, determine EU trade
:09:27. > :09:30.agreements, the competence that the EU reserves for itself, and
:09:31. > :09:33.controlling our own borders. What we do with those things is up for
:09:34. > :09:37.negotiations but it is up to us rather than determined by others. If
:09:38. > :09:42.you think of those principles behind those broad areas, in sovereignty
:09:43. > :09:48.terms, we were one of nine, and Prietos were common, now we are one
:09:49. > :09:54.of 28, those out of the Eurozone where they coalesce together it is
:09:55. > :09:58.smaller. -- vetos. On money, I know we can talk about how much we
:09:59. > :10:02.putting and what it equals but will clearly we put in more than we get
:10:03. > :10:07.out. We should be able to decide how we spend our money and that is what
:10:08. > :10:11.a sovereign nation gets to do. And on immigration, this is where people
:10:12. > :10:15.are most upset, but when commentators on the remain side said
:10:16. > :10:19.it was racist to want to control our borders, they helped the campaign to
:10:20. > :10:24.leave the EU. It is very helpful to be sneered at and it is still
:10:25. > :10:30.happening others, Polly Toynbee and others. We could fill the entire
:10:31. > :10:31.programme with this, but still 18 months to discuss, Alex, as you
:10:32. > :10:46.pointed out! Sean Spicer has gone, after Anthony
:10:47. > :10:48.Scala was appointed the director of communications. It comes after a
:10:49. > :10:59.difficult week discussing health care, with the president discussing
:11:00. > :11:02.proposals, for replacing what we often call Obamacare. Let's begin
:11:03. > :11:10.with the events overnight, what do we know of the new man, the new
:11:11. > :11:15.directive -- director of communications. What is going on
:11:16. > :11:24.there? He is a friend of Donald Trump, a New York guy, giving
:11:25. > :11:32.advice, they talk a lot. He is really a buddy of trumps, he worked
:11:33. > :11:36.in banking, but Sean Spicer, he has been leaked against a lot, in a
:11:37. > :11:42.chaotic White House, he could not take the thought of another enemy,
:11:43. > :11:46.they did not like each other, and the fundamental problem is that
:11:47. > :11:50.Donald Trump believes that he is his own best communications director and
:11:51. > :11:52.he does so through his tweeting. He thinks his communications staff,
:11:53. > :11:58.when things are not going well with big media and with the country, he
:11:59. > :12:03.thinks it is the communication's shops fold. He has a parade of
:12:04. > :12:06.people beneath him who he often disses and trades out and
:12:07. > :12:12.contradicts and sends up with wrong information but it is their fault.
:12:13. > :12:17.Sean Spicer became unusable in a classic sense of a press secretary
:12:18. > :12:21.because nobody could trust what he said, and he talked himself off the
:12:22. > :12:26.air. The usual TV briefing because he did not want Donald Trump to see
:12:27. > :12:31.him all the time, Donald Trump would see the briefing and get mad at him.
:12:32. > :12:33.Anthony Scaramucci is a pugnacious fellow and I'm sure that he will
:12:34. > :12:40.satisfy Donald Trump for a while, but I don't know for how long! And
:12:41. > :12:46.what about those disparaging remarks he made about Donald Trump, being
:12:47. > :12:51.totally out of his depth and so forth, he was very negative about
:12:52. > :12:58.the troubled presidency. He does not sound very close to him, does he? I
:12:59. > :13:02.agree, but Donald Trump himself... He calls on people and manages to
:13:03. > :13:08.make deals with people he hates! It is a good question. What will happen
:13:09. > :13:14.with health care? This keeps hitting the buffers, it was a massive
:13:15. > :13:17.campaign pledge, where is it now? For him, it wasn't so much a
:13:18. > :13:23.campaign pledge, he does not care one way or the other. He does not
:13:24. > :13:28.really care about policy. He does not care at all about it. He wanted
:13:29. > :13:32.to win. The Republican conference really wanted to defeat Obama care.
:13:33. > :13:39.That is right that they had no plan. Shockingly, they knew because Obama
:13:40. > :13:43.would veto any attempt, as he did 55 or 80 times or something, they would
:13:44. > :13:48.never have to worry on details but when needed, it turns out their bill
:13:49. > :13:52.was going to get at least 20 million people uninsured and Obamacare is
:13:53. > :13:56.popular, it's gone over 50% popularity rating for the first
:13:57. > :14:00.time. People are realising it may be taken away and so people think, this
:14:01. > :14:04.is pretty good. If you give people an important set of benefits, as
:14:05. > :14:09.Obama counted on, it works into the system and they do not want it taken
:14:10. > :14:12.away any more. That was difficult for the Republicans to recognise in
:14:13. > :14:16.advance, they would go for their meetings and people would be
:14:17. > :14:20.screaming at them. It essentially became politically toxic and
:14:21. > :14:23.impossible. I do not think there is a way of wholesale reform but the
:14:24. > :14:30.system needs tweaking. It is a Republican health care system called
:14:31. > :14:34.Romney- care, invented by the Heritage foundation 25 years ago, it
:14:35. > :14:38.doesn't defend their interests in a fundamental way, it needs tweaking
:14:39. > :14:42.and money but it will be done if they are willing to work with
:14:43. > :14:45.Democrats. That's an interesting part of the equation, moving it
:14:46. > :14:52.wider and taking it further, there has been a change in public opinion
:14:53. > :14:57.over Obamacare. Now most people, including Republican voters, support
:14:58. > :15:00.it and that has to be partly because they have understood the benefits
:15:01. > :15:07.but once it was introduced, and also because with the threat of it being
:15:08. > :15:10.taken there was a campaign that, quite proactively demonstrated to
:15:11. > :15:14.people, this is what you would be benefiting from and how you would be
:15:15. > :15:18.benefiting. This is why it is a bad thing to take away. Moving forward,
:15:19. > :15:22.I think on it as something like migration, where we look at freedom
:15:23. > :15:27.of movement coming up against the economic need for migrants in this
:15:28. > :15:33.country, I am not saying people who voted for Brexit are racist but I
:15:34. > :15:36.think there was a lot of misinformation about migration and
:15:37. > :15:42.benefits to the country perpetrated over 20 or 30 years in the UK. I am
:15:43. > :15:46.interested in how the USA turned the conversation around, in a factual
:15:47. > :15:53.way. I wonder if it can be done over things like migration in the UK in
:15:54. > :15:58.an equally factual way. It does not seem to work with the audience, they
:15:59. > :16:02.do not pay attention until it is a contentious issue. As it is now,
:16:03. > :16:11.with economic benefit versus borders. They haven't just escaped
:16:12. > :16:16.intentions. It becomes controversial and they zero in on those issues
:16:17. > :16:21.without implication. It is interesting, when George Bush's
:16:22. > :16:25.press spokesman changed, or Obama's spokesman changed, we had no idea
:16:26. > :16:28.but we are so fascinated by the Trump White House we are gripped
:16:29. > :16:33.with this show with Sean Spicer in the centre. People will miss him.
:16:34. > :16:37.Many satirists and commentators will miss Sean Spicer and which he was
:16:38. > :16:42.still there but it is telling of a wider peace. I saw an analysis that
:16:43. > :16:46.one day last week, the CNN news coverage was 92% about Trump and the
:16:47. > :16:55.administration, 8% left for the rest of the world. That is an outlet that
:16:56. > :17:01.Trump hates. Isn't it fascinating? He is a genius at it, by being
:17:02. > :17:04.centre of attention all the time and saying impossible things, doing a
:17:05. > :17:09.million things that no president in his right mind could or should do.
:17:10. > :17:14.He gets himself in the centre of attention all the time, that's what
:17:15. > :17:18.he cares about most. People think the show cannot go on like that, but
:17:19. > :17:22.it can! But we do know Melissa McCarthy now has to work currently
:17:23. > :17:27.on another impersonation, that's what we take from all of this. Let's
:17:28. > :17:31.turn our attentions to the migration crisis. The UN tells us that 40,000
:17:32. > :17:35.migrants has struggled across the Mediterranean so far this year,
:17:36. > :17:40.nearly 2400 have died in the attempt. The migration crisis has
:17:41. > :17:45.all but disappeared, certainly from the British media this year, but it
:17:46. > :17:49.is not the most pressing problem facing Europe. Do you think it is,
:17:50. > :17:53.actually? Rachel, despite what we have discussed in the last 20
:17:54. > :17:58.minutes, migration is an issue in this country that has, for some
:17:59. > :18:02.reason, gone off the radar. I think it is because people think we are
:18:03. > :18:07.leading the EU so we are no longer party to this issue all issues
:18:08. > :18:14.around it. I do not think it is a crisis of migration but a crisis of
:18:15. > :18:19.approach and solidarity. So, when you look at the situation, like in
:18:20. > :18:25.Italy at the moment, it is just under extraordinary pressure because
:18:26. > :18:28.it has become the port where migrants have gone. There is a
:18:29. > :18:34.massive increase in numbers going to Italy. The Balkan route has closed,
:18:35. > :18:39.and the EU arrangement between Turkey and Greece, that route has
:18:40. > :18:44.been closed. Part of it is just, migrants are going to move, whatever
:18:45. > :18:48.you do. If you close one illegal route, they will pursue another
:18:49. > :18:53.illegal route. That is the point, that it is illegal. It is perilous
:18:54. > :18:58.and unsafe, thousands of people are dying. They are drowning, because it
:18:59. > :19:05.is illegal. The best way to tackle this is to make it legal. To open up
:19:06. > :19:09.a legal route. The other way is to share responsibility and shared the
:19:10. > :19:13.dispersal. That is the thing, there seems to be a big clash between
:19:14. > :19:17.southern Europe and northern Europe. Clearly, southern European countries
:19:18. > :19:22.are taking more of their share, not just in terms of numbers but the
:19:23. > :19:28.financial implications of that will stop and other European countries
:19:29. > :19:31.are just turning away, and if the EU is supposed to be a collective there
:19:32. > :19:38.is not a collective approach to migration and that is the crisis.
:19:39. > :19:42.Not the actual problem. The political element... It is an
:19:43. > :19:47.explosive issue, in Germany and Austria, which also has elections
:19:48. > :19:51.this year. Austria is threatened if any more migrants come to Italy and
:19:52. > :19:55.try and migrate further north, they will put the pounces on the Brenner
:19:56. > :20:00.pass and make sure that they do not come through Austria, they will be
:20:01. > :20:04.dead set against any further distribution of numbers. Also, there
:20:05. > :20:08.is a crisis because it has to be seen as a politician -- you have to
:20:09. > :20:15.be seen as a politician responsible for your nation's welfare, dealing
:20:16. > :20:20.with the possibility of thousands more Africans on your shores. That
:20:21. > :20:25.is just scaremongering, if you look at the numbers, it is tiny
:20:26. > :20:29.percentage points across Europe. Most of the migrants are either
:20:30. > :20:35.internally in Africa or are going to third World countries, like Lebanon,
:20:36. > :20:41.Jordan, they are not coming into Europe. For you to raise this
:20:42. > :20:48.spectre of millions of Africans... It is pure scaremongering. It was a
:20:49. > :20:52.last year, it may not look like a large number but you need to ensure
:20:53. > :20:55.they are being integrated in Europe, that is one thing that has not been
:20:56. > :21:01.resolved. We do not know how to make sure that they find a home or a
:21:02. > :21:06.place to work in, so forth. It's a social, intellectual problem, and a
:21:07. > :21:10.racial problem. Europe has a demographic problem that it needs an
:21:11. > :21:13.influx of migrants because it is ageing! Are not at the extent it is
:21:14. > :21:21.currently happening. The African influx of migrants, and their
:21:22. > :21:29.nominations, they are not going to add to the workforce, as it were, as
:21:30. > :21:35.they are being displaced, housed in rather shabby accommodation. It
:21:36. > :21:42.needs to be resolved. No country can absorb... Germany took 1 million,
:21:43. > :21:48.there was no limit. Well, there was, it was 1 million! They are now
:21:49. > :21:51.corralled in areas outside towns which no longer resembled the Little
:21:52. > :21:58.German town it was before. It is a town stuck on the side of people who
:21:59. > :22:01.were not there two years ago, it is causing huge unrest. There can be no
:22:02. > :22:06.amount of movement that quickly, and suggesting that it is wrong, it is
:22:07. > :22:10.impermissible to point that out, that is crackers. What we should be
:22:11. > :22:15.proud of as a British country is the amount we spend in countries where
:22:16. > :22:17.refugee camps build-up on borders. We are among the largest
:22:18. > :22:21.contributors of those things and that is Web resources should go. But
:22:22. > :22:28.Europe-wide, it's the wrong way round. -- where resources go. We
:22:29. > :22:33.essentially incentivise, deadly traffic going across waters, we are
:22:34. > :22:36.incentivising that by picking people up, often with the open can I and is
:22:37. > :22:41.of those doing the picking up and indicating to traffickers where they
:22:42. > :22:47.will be so they can collect passengers, we are operating a ferry
:22:48. > :22:50.service, instead we should take them back to the country they came from
:22:51. > :22:55.because in international law if you go through a safe nation you are no
:22:56. > :23:04.longer illegitimate referee G taking asylum seeking refugee status -- a
:23:05. > :23:11.legitimate refugee. This is the problem... The solution is making
:23:12. > :23:16.people not want to migrate which means their own countries need to be
:23:17. > :23:24.stable and prosperous. With Libya alone, you have a 20 year project.
:23:25. > :23:26.Forgive me for four point gap something obvious, coming across an
:23:27. > :23:30.ocean you are leading a country which will not be Syria... You
:23:31. > :23:34.return them to the nation to which they are safe, investing far more in
:23:35. > :23:39.refugee camps but if you let people make their way through France or
:23:40. > :23:43.wherever, you encourage and facilitate that kind of human
:23:44. > :23:46.movement. For a long time, we need to be honest, our neighbours like
:23:47. > :23:50.the French were complicit. Carry on until you get to Calais, then we
:23:51. > :23:56.bottleneck and it becomes Britain's problem. We obviously cannot resolve
:23:57. > :24:00.this, people are desperate and are going to try. There may be perverse
:24:01. > :24:09.incentives in them being not dead, that is the problem. There's a huge
:24:10. > :24:14.human cost. Yes, Negi is paying enough attention to think about
:24:15. > :24:20.bigger solutions. -- nobody. Is it that political failure? Since the
:24:21. > :24:25.tremendous political interest in this subject one year ago, it was
:24:26. > :24:29.cataclysmic in Germany, Austria and Eastern Europe, it has completely
:24:30. > :24:36.disappeared. Thomas is right, the Austrians will assert a national
:24:37. > :24:38.interest. Alex mentioned the solution of the camp in the
:24:39. > :24:43.countries they come from, we at least have to invest, if we cannot
:24:44. > :24:46.improve the economic performance of these countries, they create
:24:47. > :24:51.economic or otherwise migrants, they need to build up camps, save holding
:24:52. > :24:56.areas, as we have done in Lebanon and Syria and Jordan -- safe. Some
:24:57. > :25:01.have been operating for 50 or 70 years now. In the middle east. This
:25:02. > :25:07.is not a solution. But it is better than people dying in the ocean. You
:25:08. > :25:11.need to restore public trust in the process, making sure it is not just
:25:12. > :25:15.boatloads of young men any more. It has undermined public confidence in
:25:16. > :25:21.these asylum and refugee placement processes, people supposedly fleeing
:25:22. > :25:22.oppression are men of fighting age. I am so sorry, Rachel. This happens
:25:23. > :25:25.every week. That's all we have
:25:26. > :25:33.time for this week. It's good to see you all as ever.
:25:34. > :25:34.Plenty more to discuss next week on the same place.
:25:35. > :26:06.Hello there, low pressure will be with us for most of the weekend, and
:26:07. > :26:10.it is going to produce sunshine and showers. The winds will ease, not as
:26:11. > :26:12.strong as what they were on Friday. Some showers could be heavy on both
:26:13. > :26:13.days