0:00:24 > 0:00:29Hello, and a very warm welcome to Dateline London.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32This week we discuss the future of the Iranian nuclear deal,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36as President Trump says he'll tolerate it for just a few more
0:00:36 > 0:00:38months.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40What impact will that have inside the country,
0:00:40 > 0:00:41where xxx are in prison?
0:00:41 > 0:00:44And as two key British Cabinet ministers made Brexit pleas
0:00:44 > 0:00:49in Germany, was anyone in the EU listening?
0:00:49 > 0:00:53My guests this week: the French journalist Agnes Poirier,
0:00:53 > 0:00:58from the magazine Marrianne, the American writer and broadcaster
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Jeffrey Kofman, the Iranian writer, broadcaster, and journalist
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Amir Taheri, and the British political commentator
0:01:05 > 0:01:07and writer Adam Raphael.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Welcome to you all.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15The Iran nuclear deal survives, at least for a few more months.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17President Trump has declared he will extend sanctions relief
0:01:17 > 0:01:19for Iran just once more, giving European countries
0:01:19 > 0:01:22what he called 'a last chance' to fix 'terrible flaws'
0:01:22 > 0:01:26in the 2015 deal.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28For example, the White House wants signatories to agree permanent
0:01:28 > 0:01:34restrictions on Iran's uranium enrichment - currently they expire
0:01:34 > 0:01:37in a sunset clause in 2025.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39And the administration has announced 14 new targeted sanctions
0:01:39 > 0:01:45against individuals and entities.
0:01:45 > 0:01:55Amir, all other signatories say this deal is working,
0:01:57 > 0:02:01... So what does this stance from President Trump mean, do you think?
0:02:01 > 0:02:06Years trying to link the deal to two other issues, one being the missile
0:02:06 > 0:02:11programme, which is mentioned in the United Nations resolution but not in
0:02:11 > 0:02:15the deal. Don't forget that the deal is just a verbal deal, nobody signed
0:02:15 > 0:02:20it. Nobody is really legally committed to it. It is just a
0:02:20 > 0:02:27political move. The second thing is, he wants to leak it -- link it to
0:02:27 > 0:02:30human rights, which is why the Iranian Chief justice has been
0:02:30 > 0:02:35sanctioned under the new decision by President Trump. He has made some
0:02:35 > 0:02:38headway with President Macron of France, who has also mentioned these
0:02:38 > 0:02:43two issues will stop the idea is to force Iran continue negotiations for
0:02:43 > 0:02:49a new package so that the nuclear issue is not treated in isolation.
0:02:49 > 0:02:59The idea is that you cannot have a regime behaving differently, to be
0:02:59 > 0:03:04nice on the nuclear issue but bad on the missile issue and the human
0:03:04 > 0:03:08rights issue, holding 36 Western hostages, for example, without
0:03:08 > 0:03:16charging most of them. There is a package of problem, and I think if
0:03:16 > 0:03:26Trump succeeds, it would need a run to solve all of that problem. It is
0:03:26 > 0:03:29a country with a lot of problems with the outside world, and it is
0:03:29 > 0:03:34wise to tackle all of them together. Jeffrey, is President Trump saying
0:03:34 > 0:03:40this because of all the factors that Amir is highlighting? Or is it also
0:03:40 > 0:03:44a visceral reaction to a deal that was signed under President Obama?It
0:03:44 > 0:03:51is clear that it is the latter. These are complex issues that take a
0:03:51 > 0:03:55lot of study. We know he is not a man who likes to study. These are
0:03:55 > 0:04:01gut reaction. It is, they are bad, Obama like them, therefore I don't.
0:04:01 > 0:04:12There is no chess, this is checkers. The people around him agree that
0:04:12 > 0:04:16this is one foreign policy area where they seem united.There is a
0:04:16 > 0:04:19consensus that Iran has got away with a lot, that there has been
0:04:19 > 0:04:23kowtowing to them to try to accommodate, and I think there is a
0:04:23 > 0:04:27sense that Iran needs to be held to account, which is why there is some
0:04:27 > 0:04:31support for this. The complexity of this, and when you add in the
0:04:31 > 0:04:38demonstrations we have seen in a run in the last months or weeks, that
0:04:38 > 0:04:41come in conservative areas, they add a layer of complexity that makes it
0:04:41 > 0:04:47more difficult to navigate this. When Iran says it will respond
0:04:47 > 0:04:50forcefully to any attempts to get it to negotiate something new, what
0:04:50 > 0:04:58does that mean? What is your take? It doesn't mean anything, it's just
0:04:58 > 0:05:01bragging and sabre rattling, because Iran is really in a very weak
0:05:01 > 0:05:10position at the moment. The trick that the Americans are playing, and
0:05:10 > 0:05:14let's now do a bit of Trump bashing. I don't think Trump understands the
0:05:14 > 0:05:18situation. But the American administration is making a comeback,
0:05:18 > 0:05:25regardless of Trump. Grip it is a little too soft. The fact is, he was
0:05:25 > 0:05:28America acting unilaterally. All the European powers are horrified by
0:05:28 > 0:05:36what is going on. --it is a little too soft. You cannot hope to be the
0:05:36 > 0:05:41leader of the Western world if you behave in the way that America is
0:05:41 > 0:05:44doing. Outside the missile deal and what have you, there is the whole
0:05:44 > 0:05:48situation in the Middle East. Of course, I can understand why
0:05:48 > 0:05:56Europeans and Americans are worried by Iran's role in Syria, in Yemen.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00There was a whole series, but the way to approach it is surely not in
0:06:00 > 0:06:05the sort of incredibly blunt, aggressive way, ignoring all his
0:06:05 > 0:06:11allies. I'm a little worried by your soft approach to Trump here.I don't
0:06:11 > 0:06:16want to participate in Trump bashing. I don't care about Trump.
0:06:16 > 0:06:24What I am saying is that he has not acted unilaterally. He has renewed
0:06:24 > 0:06:29the suspension of sanctions. So far, he hasn't done anything.He has
0:06:29 > 0:06:33given 120 days.He is free to suggest, and he is suggesting, let's
0:06:33 > 0:06:38bring a package of issues we have with Iran, and instead of parking
0:06:38 > 0:06:42them on one side because we want to fudge the issue, let's face them. It
0:06:42 > 0:06:47is good for Iran, too, because Iran has not benefited from this deal at
0:06:47 > 0:06:55all, contrary to what people think. With his 120 day deadline, what do
0:06:55 > 0:07:00the European signatories do now? What is their response?They think
0:07:00 > 0:07:06there is no better alternative to this agreement that was so long in
0:07:06 > 0:07:14the making, in the preparing. If Trump and the American
0:07:14 > 0:07:17administration was so authentically genuine about actually making it
0:07:17 > 0:07:22better, because the issues, as you very well said, are complex, and
0:07:22 > 0:07:26there are other questions to be debated. It should be done behind
0:07:26 > 0:07:31closed doors, as it had been done. It is a question for diplomacy. The
0:07:31 > 0:07:3825 countries that participated, it took about 10-15 years to get to the
0:07:38 > 0:07:42point with Iran that we reached, and then suddenly, there is all this
0:07:42 > 0:07:45bragging, as you are saying, which is so counter-productive, especially
0:07:45 > 0:07:50when you are dealing with Iran. If we want to take it further, why not?
0:07:50 > 0:07:58It is not by behaving...He hasn't done anything.He has given this
0:07:58 > 0:08:03ultimatum or four months.Because an ultimatum is a diplomatic term. It
0:08:03 > 0:08:08must be done through diplomatic channels. He has said, this may be
0:08:08 > 0:08:14the last time I signed it.That doesn't sound like an ultimatum?You
0:08:14 > 0:08:21have to have a back-up plan.Now I become the defender of Trump!It's
0:08:21 > 0:08:28not the intention. We want your analysis.I have nothing to do with
0:08:28 > 0:08:37Trump or anything, I am Iranian. He is suggesting that Iran is the cause
0:08:37 > 0:08:47of many problems.We don't deny that!To that point, then... What
0:08:47 > 0:08:52could change inside Iran?As I said, Macron has agreed. The British at
0:08:52 > 0:08:55the moment our row because they are obsessed with Brexit. The Italians
0:08:55 > 0:09:01have no Government, nor do the Germans. So, he is saying, let's
0:09:01 > 0:09:07bring in run to the negotiating table. About the Middle East, the
0:09:07 > 0:09:10intervention in other Arab countries, support for terrorism,
0:09:10 > 0:09:15holding Western hostages. All these things, and it would be good for
0:09:15 > 0:09:21Iran, too. Once the underbrush is cleared, then they can really lift
0:09:21 > 0:09:25sanctions on Iran. They haven't lifted sanctions on Iran. The
0:09:25 > 0:09:30Iranian embassy in London cannot open a bank account in London. It is
0:09:30 > 0:09:35forced to pay its staff in cash. Did you realise that? This is what Trump
0:09:35 > 0:09:44is saying. You say you don't like it, Trump is crazy, he is a sexual
0:09:44 > 0:09:47predator or whatever...That is not what we're here to discuss. Will it
0:09:47 > 0:09:52help ordinary people in Iran? We talked a lot about the protests, a
0:09:52 > 0:09:56lot of it to do with the economy, several thousand people still
0:09:56 > 0:10:01imprisoned, perhaps more. To your point, what could what could benefit
0:10:01 > 0:10:05the very young population, all those people who don't have a job, those
0:10:05 > 0:10:11fundamentals of life, how could that change?The problem with Iran is
0:10:11 > 0:10:18that you have two countries. It is Iran is a revolution, and Iran as a
0:10:18 > 0:10:24nation state. One day, Iran must decide to become a nation again and
0:10:24 > 0:10:28not be a vehicle for exporting revolution. In that case, Iran has
0:10:28 > 0:10:32no problem with anybody. It is the only country in the Middle East with
0:10:32 > 0:10:36defined borders, the only one. The only country in the Middle East that
0:10:36 > 0:10:42has not been at war with anybody for 400 years, apart from the Iraqi
0:10:42 > 0:10:46invasion. We have no problem with anybody. The problem we have is
0:10:46 > 0:10:58because we want to make the rest of the Middle East... We don't share a
0:10:58 > 0:11:06border or compete over markets or access to raw materials. We have 2
0:11:06 > 0:11:10million Iranians living in the United States. We always had good
0:11:10 > 0:11:13relations with them, but we have become the number one enemy of the
0:11:13 > 0:11:19United States because of the revolutionary side of us. Israel
0:11:19 > 0:11:29have been our friends for ever, since we freed the Jews, and now we
0:11:29 > 0:11:34have become enemies of Israel. I never heard anybody say anything bad
0:11:34 > 0:11:39about Jews in Iran, and there is no anti-Semitism in Iran, and now we
0:11:39 > 0:11:45become the most anti-Israeli. This doesn't represent a run. If it can't
0:11:45 > 0:11:50come back as a nation, with its culture, history, resources, its 80
0:11:50 > 0:11:56million population, it would be a fantastic thing for everybody.There
0:11:56 > 0:12:03will be an enormous Twitter debate about all of this, but we will be
0:12:03 > 0:12:07coming back in future, for sure. There is more to discuss this week,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10and we must move on. We already mentioned Brexit. You can't ignore
0:12:10 > 0:12:13it this week.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15Two British Cabinet ministers who stayed in place after this
0:12:15 > 0:12:18week's Government reshuffle headed to Germany midweek to make
0:12:18 > 0:12:19separate pleas about Brexit.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, and the Secretary of State
0:12:21 > 0:12:23for Exiting the EU, David Davis, urged their respective
0:12:23 > 0:12:25audiences to remember the importance of London's
0:12:25 > 0:12:28financial services sector.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31They told a German newspaper it makes no sense to put in place
0:12:31 > 0:12:34unnecessary barriers to trade after Britain has left the EU.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36Agnes, Britain seems to want a bespoke trade deal,
0:12:36 > 0:12:43was anyone listening?
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Agnes, they certainly give the sense that Britain might want a bespoke
0:12:46 > 0:12:50deal. Do you think anyone in Germany was listening this because Mikethey
0:12:50 > 0:12:53were pretty busy in Germany this week. I don't know why they chose
0:12:53 > 0:12:59that particular week to go. And it was supposed to be a three-day charm
0:12:59 > 0:13:02offensive. That was a hell of a three-day charm offensive, because
0:13:02 > 0:13:09they ended up telling the German newspapers that EU leaders should
0:13:09 > 0:13:17not want to continue punishing, that they were paranoid and backward
0:13:17 > 0:13:24looking.They said, remember the financial crisis, and we don't want
0:13:24 > 0:13:28another one, therefore it behoves all European countries to remain as
0:13:28 > 0:13:32one in terms of financial services. Philip Hammond said something new,
0:13:32 > 0:13:36which is bewildering, but at least it's something new to bring to the
0:13:36 > 0:13:41Brexit debate, saying, actually, it is for Europe to make an offer, to
0:13:41 > 0:13:45tell us what you can bring to the table. It is not necessarily for
0:13:45 > 0:13:51Britain to tell you, Europe, what we want. Then it is what we call a
0:13:51 > 0:13:56conversation between deaf and mute people. The German business leaders
0:13:56 > 0:14:01they met in Berlin said, hang on a minute, we don't know what Britain
0:14:01 > 0:14:10wants. One day, it is a Norway- style agreement, another time it is
0:14:10 > 0:14:13Canada plus, plus, plus, trade agreement with financial services.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18They would say they did go to Germany knowing what they wanted -
0:14:18 > 0:14:20stability in financial services, one of the things that brings the most
0:14:20 > 0:14:27money into the UK.It is key to the British economy, but then Michel
0:14:27 > 0:14:32Barnier, who is the face and voice of the 27 EU member states, for the
0:14:32 > 0:14:41moment, he said that the City of London and the banks operating there
0:14:41 > 0:14:47will lose their passporting writes. That hasn't changed, so now it is a
0:14:47 > 0:14:51question for the British Government and therefore the Tory Party to come
0:14:51 > 0:14:55together and decide what they want in order to have just one line will
0:14:55 > 0:15:01stop they go to Brussels and say, OK, this is the kind of agreement.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04It is a total mess, isn't it? The new thing is that we now seem to be
0:15:04 > 0:15:11willing to pay to secure additional rights for our financial services,
0:15:11 > 0:15:15so we would have to pay a financial penalty. Whether any of this can be
0:15:15 > 0:15:19sold in the British Parliament or to the British people, I have no idea.
0:15:19 > 0:15:25But it is a fantastic mess. What is interesting to me is that, day by
0:15:25 > 0:15:30day, reality begins to intrude into these negotiations. So, the French
0:15:30 > 0:15:35are only too keen to take over our financial services. I can see Mr
0:15:35 > 0:15:39Macron rubbing his hands at this very moment. The fact is, this
0:15:39 > 0:15:46country, it's not mad, in my view, never has been and won't be now, and
0:15:46 > 0:15:50the Conservative Party, in theory, should represent the interests of
0:15:50 > 0:15:53business. That is what it has traditionally been about. Bad
0:15:53 > 0:15:59business won't put up with the sort of line that the Conservative Party
0:15:59 > 0:16:03now appears to be destined for. I think the party will have to start
0:16:03 > 0:16:06adjusting, and indeed the parliament and the Prime Minister, we are going
0:16:06 > 0:16:13to go in for a most fantastic up. I am pessimistic about what is going
0:16:13 > 0:16:18on.What does that mean, what will they do? Will it be business coming
0:16:18 > 0:16:27back and saying, we need clarity because we can't plan without it?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Agnes makes a good point because there is no clarity in the
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Government or unity in the Conservative Party. Until they can
0:16:33 > 0:16:36reach an agreed view, it is impossible to put forward an agreed
0:16:36 > 0:16:42position. We really are in a mess here, and I can understand the
0:16:42 > 0:16:46irritability, and indeed the impatience, of our European
0:16:46 > 0:16:50partners, former partners, with the British position. And it is caused
0:16:50 > 0:16:56by a political crisis within the Government. It is so easy to muddle
0:16:56 > 0:16:59up the Conservative Party and the nation, but they are to separate
0:16:59 > 0:17:02things. If you talk to conservatives, they regard them as
0:17:02 > 0:17:06the same, and that is one of the real problem is that we face.
0:17:06 > 0:17:11Somehow, the Tory Party has got to sort itself out, and it's got to
0:17:11 > 0:17:15actually begin to realise what it is about and what can unify it.
0:17:15 > 0:17:21Otherwise, we are in a total mess. I am very pessimistic.I sometimes
0:17:21 > 0:17:25have that pessimism. Sometimes, I wonder if this is just the
0:17:25 > 0:17:29disorganised chaos of the political process. Sometimes, when we are in
0:17:29 > 0:17:33the midst of these kind of storms, you think, my gosh, it is going to
0:17:33 > 0:17:38hell in a hand basket, but this is often how politics works, and it
0:17:38 > 0:17:41takes this kind of brinkmanship, uncertainty and bargaining can
0:17:41 > 0:17:45sometimes lead to a resolution. The concern is that we have just over a
0:17:45 > 0:17:52year to resolve this.Less than that - October, because you have a
0:17:52 > 0:17:55six-month ratification process. We are talking until October.This
0:17:55 > 0:18:02autumn.Yes.There are two other teams that Kaymer. One is that the
0:18:02 > 0:18:08pound went to its highest level the referendum. It was $1.37. Something
0:18:08 > 0:18:14like that. Partly in response to apparent statements, or indications,
0:18:14 > 0:18:21from France and Holland... Spain, pardon me. That they would be open
0:18:21 > 0:18:25to a soft Brexit, which somehow encouraged the markets here and gave
0:18:25 > 0:18:29business sense that there may be a way out. Then this very unexpected
0:18:29 > 0:18:34comment from Nigel Farage, saying, maybe we should have a second
0:18:34 > 0:18:38referendum, which I think really is extraordinary, the idea that the man
0:18:38 > 0:18:45who really initiated this whole momentum now wants to go back to the
0:18:45 > 0:18:49people, potentially, for another one. Me thinks it has to do more
0:18:49 > 0:18:55with him than with Brexit, now that his own contact in the White House,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Steve Bannon, has been brushed aside and he has to find a new role in
0:18:58 > 0:19:06life. There are so many currents now, and it does become incredibly
0:19:06 > 0:19:09difficult to wonder whether this will lead to something stable, or
0:19:09 > 0:19:13whether we will count these days down and still be talking in this
0:19:13 > 0:19:20disorganised fashion.I want to pick up on something that you were saying
0:19:20 > 0:19:24about the Conservative Party. We had a reshuffle this week that was quite
0:19:24 > 0:19:29extraordinary, and you talk to people at Westminster all the time.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32International viewers who didn't follow it, we had a Health Secretary
0:19:32 > 0:19:36who apparently was going to be given another job and managed to persuade
0:19:36 > 0:19:41the Prime Minister not only to stay in this job but to add another title
0:19:41 > 0:19:45to it. Another cabinet minister who was told she was going somewhere
0:19:45 > 0:19:49else dug her heels in, spent three hours in Downing Street and came out
0:19:49 > 0:19:53on the backbenches instead. What does this tell us about Theresa
0:19:53 > 0:19:58May's authority, how much of it was tied up with Brexit? It has been an
0:19:58 > 0:20:06extraordinary week.Shambolic is the only thing you can make of this
0:20:06 > 0:20:10reshuffle. Normally it is a time of the utmost prime ministerial power.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Unfortunately, this one, I don't know, really... She's badly served
0:20:13 > 0:20:18by some of the people around her. There appears to be no proper
0:20:18 > 0:20:24preparation for a reshuffle. The idea that somehow... Jeremy Pied has
0:20:24 > 0:20:28been a close colleague of hers for over five years. And for longer than
0:20:28 > 0:20:31that. She must have known exactly where his position was, or she
0:20:31 > 0:20:38should have done. The idea that somehow, coal, on the day, he says,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42I'm digging in, just this total lack of preparation, so you feel that it
0:20:42 > 0:20:49is unprofessional, but she doesn't have the skills to manage her party,
0:20:49 > 0:20:53that she is very, very weak indeed, and she is only propped up there
0:20:53 > 0:20:56because they can't agree between themselves, the Tory Party at the
0:20:56 > 0:20:59moment because they have in such crisis, on who should be her
0:20:59 > 0:21:04successor. I Tim Jeffery's point that politics often does seem to be
0:21:04 > 0:21:09a very convoluted, fractional fell, and in the end it all resolves
0:21:09 > 0:21:15itself. We are going through a period of politics in this country
0:21:15 > 0:21:18which is really unusual, and yes, there may be a resolution at the end
0:21:18 > 0:21:23of the day, but my goodness, it will be difficult to get to.The view
0:21:23 > 0:21:28from the consulate of Britain is sadness. This reshuffle is
0:21:28 > 0:21:34shambolic, but it feels as if we should send a rescue mission to
0:21:34 > 0:21:41Downing Street. Here is a political prisoner who is trapped by her own
0:21:41 > 0:21:46troops was not send the SAS! Do something. But it's sad, in the end.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50We can laugh, but it's sad, because as a result, Britain is in a state
0:21:50 > 0:21:53of paralysis.All right.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56We can't leave without discussing the enormous offence he has
0:21:56 > 0:21:58caused with comments made during a bi-partisan Oval Office
0:21:58 > 0:22:03meeting about immigration laws.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05Donald Trump himself denies using the offensive
0:22:05 > 0:22:07word beginning with S, though concedes the language
0:22:07 > 0:22:08he used to describe various African countries,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11and others, was 'tough'.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16Jeffrey, the UN didn't say the language was tough,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21they said it was racist.
0:22:21 > 0:22:27Jane, are you putting me in a position of using a word on the BBC
0:22:27 > 0:22:33that... ?Entirely your choice!I don't know what the censors think
0:22:33 > 0:22:36about it. This is the President of the United States. I did not think I
0:22:36 > 0:22:44would have to repeat this word on air as a journalist. He called these
0:22:44 > 0:22:51countries the word beginning with S. It is so deeply offensive. Whatever
0:22:51 > 0:22:54you think of the man, it is unthinkable that you can defend that
0:22:54 > 0:23:01kind of talk from a world leader. I think it is also offensive when you
0:23:01 > 0:23:05think of the tradition of America, give us your poor, your tired, your
0:23:05 > 0:23:09huddled masses. Let's be honest, most of America was settled from
0:23:09 > 0:23:14countries that were at the time... Could have been described with the
0:23:14 > 0:23:18same word. Whether it be the European countries in the 19th
0:23:18 > 0:23:22century or just after the war, Ireland in the 19th-century - these
0:23:22 > 0:23:26countries were, by Donald Trump's definition, much the same. That is
0:23:26 > 0:23:32what has built the great country. So it is just mind-numbing to know how
0:23:32 > 0:23:37to respond.We are used to a year of bellicose language from Donald
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Trump, to his extraordinary use of social media in the small hours of
0:23:40 > 0:23:46morning - should we be surprised or is there something more worrying
0:23:46 > 0:23:53about it?First of all, Trump denies having said that.That precise word.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57He said he used tough language, but there are multiple people who were
0:23:57 > 0:24:02in the room.You have to give him the benefit of the doubt.I think
0:24:02 > 0:24:08not, because a Democratic senator was there.So we give the Democratic
0:24:08 > 0:24:16senator the benefit of the doubt. Those who know American language
0:24:16 > 0:24:20know that this is S word is part of the routine vocabulary of Americans,
0:24:20 > 0:24:25but when it comes to foreigners, including the Portuguese
0:24:25 > 0:24:33secretary-general of the UN, sounds terrible. The French, Germans and
0:24:33 > 0:24:38other countries have certain words. Except the president doesn't say
0:24:38 > 0:24:43that word.It is part of the language of daily life, and American
0:24:43 > 0:24:51literature is full of capital F words and capital S words.He has
0:24:51 > 0:25:01form in this area, when he described racist in South Carolina, saying
0:25:01 > 0:25:07there was a fault on both sides. He comes with form.I don't want to
0:25:07 > 0:25:11defend Trump. It is none of my business. I am saying that we have
0:25:11 > 0:25:17to put things in context, and I am against ideas that become
0:25:17 > 0:25:22fashionable. A fashionable idea is to hit Trump, so I'm against it. If
0:25:22 > 0:25:26tomorrow the fashionable idea is... It is not fashion, it is fact. We
0:25:26 > 0:25:31have the president of the free world. It is absolute indignity
0:25:31 > 0:25:35personified. I think we should stop talking about him until the American
0:25:35 > 0:25:41people remove him from power in a peaceful, democratic way.That is
0:25:41 > 0:25:46their business.It is not fair to dismiss this as fashionable. What he
0:25:46 > 0:25:52did was to dismiss... He used that word against El Salvador, Haiti and
0:25:52 > 0:25:57Africa, and said, we need more Norwegians. That is, by any
0:25:57 > 0:26:02definition, a white supremacist agenda of, we need more Scandinavian
0:26:02 > 0:26:06- looking people, fewer of those others. When you reduce this to what
0:26:06 > 0:26:12it really means, that is what he was saying.Gentlemen, ladies, we will
0:26:12 > 0:26:16leave our largely civilised discussion there. Nice to see you
0:26:16 > 0:26:17all again.
0:26:17 > 0:26:19That's all we have time for this week.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Do join us again next week - same time, same place.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25But for now, thank you for watching, and goodbye.