0:00:23 > 0:00:25Hello, and a very warm welcome to Dateline London.
0:00:25 > 0:00:26I'm Carrie Gracie.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30This week we discuss a British plea on European security,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33South Africa after President Zuma,
0:00:33 > 0:00:36and the continuing absence of a government for Northern Ireland.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39My guests this week are the Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee,
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Dr Vincent Magombe of Africa International,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45the Irish writer and broadcaster Brian O'Connell,
0:00:45 > 0:00:48and Thomas Kielinger of Germany's Die Welt.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52Welcome to you all.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54The British Prime Minister, Theresa May, has urged
0:00:54 > 0:00:58the European Union to sign up to a security treaty to ensure that
0:00:58 > 0:01:03cooperation continues after Britain leaves.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Addressing the Munich Security Conference,
0:01:05 > 0:01:09she warned that if the EU's aim in the Brexit talks was to avoid
0:01:09 > 0:01:14cooperation then the security of all would be damaged.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16If the EU's aim is to avoid cooperation,
0:01:16 > 0:01:24Thomas Kielinger, is the EU's aim to avoid co-operation and if so, why?
0:01:25 > 0:01:28I have long given up to try to figure out what goes on in the mind
0:01:28 > 0:01:33of our leaders and this phrase is totally puzzling. She seems to hold
0:01:33 > 0:01:36hostage the British security involvement in Europe to the outcome
0:01:36 > 0:01:41of the Brexit talks, and she is in no way to speak that language. She
0:01:41 > 0:01:45must work for flexibility, cooperation and so on. Any
0:01:45 > 0:01:50intimation of trying to demand something else is totally misplaced.
0:01:50 > 0:01:56She is on a sticky wicket, as we know, and there is no consensus. We
0:01:56 > 0:01:59are still waiting, as was said yesterday, for what the British
0:01:59 > 0:02:03people really want, the British Government rather. She is not
0:02:03 > 0:02:10frustrated but curious. -- as Angela Merkel said. Wells should be on the
0:02:10 > 0:02:17huge of riding issue... We would like a mutually agreeable agreement
0:02:17 > 0:02:20on the Brexit conditions, until that is sorted out there is no way for
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Theresa May to threaten British cooperation with Europe. Besides,
0:02:24 > 0:02:29the whole speech about security is beside the point.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33So it is a distraction? Absolutely a distraction.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39And cart before the horse. Very much so. The defence and
0:02:39 > 0:02:42military issues are her first car because Britain is deeply involved
0:02:42 > 0:02:48in the defence of Europe and that is uncontroversial. -- that is her
0:02:48 > 0:02:52first card to play. When she is talking about issues at the moment
0:02:52 > 0:02:56do not believe our mind of what needs to be done.
0:02:56 > 0:03:05Let's open it out. Polly Toynbee, the message that UK is a contributor
0:03:05 > 0:03:13to defend in Europe and has expertise uncovered on
0:03:13 > 0:03:16counterterror. Even extreme Brexiters want security
0:03:16 > 0:03:22and Interpol relationship with the rest of Europe. No doubt about that.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26But even there she threw a spanner into the works to think, ideological
0:03:26 > 0:03:33league... They are so pragmatic compared with us, the whole Brexit
0:03:33 > 0:03:36conundrum is about British ideology. To accuse particularly in the
0:03:36 > 0:03:44context of security Angela Merkel and the Europeans of this is an
0:03:44 > 0:03:49absurdity and it bodes ill. To be fair to her, she only said if
0:03:49 > 0:03:53ideological... She did not say they were ideological.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56The question is, as G in this speech said, which you may have done, that
0:03:56 > 0:04:03she is willing to accept -- has she said this is that she is willing to
0:04:03 > 0:04:07accept the European Court of Justice as an arbitrator on a treaty over
0:04:07 > 0:04:10security? Across as one of her red lines if she does not accept that,
0:04:10 > 0:04:15it will not happen then. She must accept with any treaty on any issue
0:04:15 > 0:04:18whatever that there is always an international adjudicator on any
0:04:18 > 0:04:24trade deal wherever in the world. In Europe it happens to be the ECJ. She
0:04:24 > 0:04:29must swallow this. And Brian O'Connell, as another
0:04:29 > 0:04:33European looking in on this, do you think the European arrest warrant
0:04:33 > 0:04:38and Euro poll and all that can be taken for granted, low hanging
0:04:38 > 0:04:40fruit? We should be able to take it for
0:04:40 > 0:04:44granted and people's security is paramount above trade and everything
0:04:44 > 0:04:49else, but the tone of the remarks probably betrays the level to which
0:04:49 > 0:04:56this relationship between Britain and the EU counterparts in this
0:04:56 > 0:05:02negotiation have reached, they are really poor relationships. You must
0:05:02 > 0:05:08have an independent arbitrator and it will probably be the ECJ anything
0:05:08 > 0:05:11crosses one of her red lines I think she will have to suck it up in the
0:05:11 > 0:05:16end because she will have no choice. You cannot go into Brexit without
0:05:16 > 0:05:25some form of deal on extradition and basic things like that, and cyber
0:05:25 > 0:05:27stuff and intelligence agencies will talk to each other anyway whether or
0:05:27 > 0:05:34not there is a deal. I think the tone is very illustrative of where
0:05:34 > 0:05:39things are at the moment. Obviously, your specialism is a
0:05:39 > 0:05:43different continent, a complex patchwork security, economics,
0:05:43 > 0:05:47politics, as an outsider looking at this?
0:05:47 > 0:05:51I live in a European country today though I am an outsider, so it
0:05:51 > 0:05:54balances me what happens. I would not be surprised and we will hear a
0:05:54 > 0:06:00lot of this. What is happening is mind games. I pity Theresa May
0:06:00 > 0:06:04because she is like a tool that is being used by both sides. One day
0:06:04 > 0:06:10she says the bin to appease the remainders and another date to
0:06:10 > 0:06:17appease the Brexiters. Not much to appease the remainders,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20mostly people who voted Brexit are appeased.
0:06:20 > 0:06:25Tim Tams that is the problem... The lack of compromise. -- sometimes
0:06:25 > 0:06:30that is the problem. For the country getting out of Europe, they need to
0:06:30 > 0:06:36be friendly and welcoming to Europe afterwards. If one of these days she
0:06:36 > 0:06:42can just over say things that can end up giving Britain a bad deal.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46Thomas Kielinger, another thing we saw in the last week was Boris
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Johnson the Foreign Secretary beginning that series of speeches we
0:06:49 > 0:06:53now expect from British Government ministers. Did that go some way to
0:06:53 > 0:06:57healing any of this? I am afraid not. There is a basic
0:06:57 > 0:07:01and religion in his speech where he says, friendly, understanding people
0:07:01 > 0:07:04who voted remain have legitimate concerns about the place in Europe.
0:07:04 > 0:07:10Before he came to that phrase he said it would be a betrayal if we
0:07:10 > 0:07:13reversed the Brexit decision and there is no way we go anywhere else.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18He was quite adamant that not to give a single inch. His offer to be
0:07:18 > 0:07:22nice to the people who voted remain sounded false. Basically Brexiteers
0:07:22 > 0:07:28are still in denial of the real problems they face. Everyone is now
0:07:28 > 0:07:33using a bit of words that eventually will not prevail anyway, so we are
0:07:33 > 0:07:36in a moment when as journalists we have a hard time taking any of this
0:07:36 > 0:07:40seriously. A lot of what she said in Munich is
0:07:40 > 0:07:44probably for home consumption, anyway.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47The outcome will be a bunch what ever happens.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50Boris Johnson had the political opportunity of his lifetime if they
0:07:50 > 0:07:54wanted to show he was leadership that are real. He started off by
0:07:54 > 0:07:58saying, I want to reach out and I understand the grief and pain of the
0:07:58 > 0:08:0248%. Nearly half the country... Can only give them nothing. Hard Brexit
0:08:02 > 0:08:06all the way to come out of the single market and Customs union,
0:08:06 > 0:08:12absolutely no ECJ and not a mention of... No detail on anything.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16We will come back to Ireland any moment but first an entirely
0:08:16 > 0:08:18different continent to look at the issues of South Africa over the
0:08:18 > 0:08:21week.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23After what seemed like days of prevarication, Jacob Zuma resigned
0:08:23 > 0:08:25as South Africa's president, saying he still didn't understand
0:08:25 > 0:08:26what he'd done wrong.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Cyril Ramaphosa now takes over a country
0:08:29 > 0:08:30with huge problems to solve.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32Vincent, you watch these events closely.
0:08:32 > 0:08:39Can Mr Ramaphosa put the country back on track?
0:08:39 > 0:08:44Is he the man to do with the enormous challenges South Africa
0:08:44 > 0:08:48faces? He is but he also may not be.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51Explained. There are two things here. Of
0:08:51 > 0:08:54course, for the question itself, I think you need to see it in two
0:08:54 > 0:09:02ways. In one way, what is it for South Africa? The other, what are
0:09:02 > 0:09:08the implications for Africa? In South Africa, Ramaphosa could
0:09:08 > 0:09:14succeed but he is somebody who came from the workers' background and a
0:09:14 > 0:09:19millionaire, who worked with Western business capitalists and succeeded.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24Now, he needs to radically reshape his own attitudes towards what
0:09:24 > 0:09:28development and economic growth is in a country like South Africa.
0:09:28 > 0:09:34Does he have a plan? He has a country and an economy,
0:09:34 > 0:09:36according to capitalist ideas, but he does not at the moment have a
0:09:36 > 0:09:41plan to share that wealth for the 90% or so of people in South Africa.
0:09:41 > 0:09:47If he does not, South Africa is just not going to work. The other side,
0:09:47 > 0:09:53for me, I think another side is more important. South Africa is
0:09:53 > 0:10:00democracy. To sort out those problems is the obligations for
0:10:00 > 0:10:05Africa... Look, I come from Uganda and I belong to a pro-democracy
0:10:05 > 0:10:09group called Free Uganda and we are struggling in my country. The leader
0:10:09 > 0:10:15was in power for 35 years, changing positions to be a life president. If
0:10:15 > 0:10:23Uganda and Sudan and Rwanda and Zaire and so many of these African
0:10:23 > 0:10:29countries... Trump used a very horrible word beginning with less to
0:10:29 > 0:10:34describe them. If we can learn from south Africa about how democracy can
0:10:34 > 0:10:40help us resolve our problems, it will be... -- Trump used a word
0:10:40 > 0:10:46beginning with S. To step away so we can build our country...
0:10:46 > 0:10:49That example of South Africa must succeed in order to provide
0:10:49 > 0:10:50something for the rest of the continent.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54It needs to succeed and it does not succeed, we as Ugandans and Africans
0:10:54 > 0:10:57from other countries, we are watching carefully and we are
0:10:57 > 0:11:06telling people like the president that look, next is you and if we
0:11:06 > 0:11:12don't have a dramatic graphic -- democratic process in which we can
0:11:12 > 0:11:16change things, and we are going back to the Civil War of the battles of
0:11:16 > 0:11:18the past. I don't know what you have made
0:11:18 > 0:11:22about South Africa over the past week. We now have the ANC damaged,
0:11:22 > 0:11:27legitimacy in question by going for a two elections in two years' time.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31I saw the TV pictures of Parliament yesterday when he made his speech,
0:11:31 > 0:11:40his State of the union address, and there was a feeling of such support.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I thought that was incredible, because I did not think that when
0:11:43 > 0:11:50this final week or two began that he was going to be able to shift Jacob
0:11:50 > 0:11:56Zuma. Ramaphosa, one thing is that he is a
0:11:56 > 0:12:00negotiator and he was influential in getting this...
0:12:00 > 0:12:04You know that game where you have a pile of sticks and must pull one out
0:12:04 > 0:12:10without the rest collapsing, it was like that. And it is an amazing feat
0:12:10 > 0:12:14to get to where he did, without a drop of blood being spilled so far.
0:12:14 > 0:12:20But he needs to now be a mediator between, not between the political
0:12:20 > 0:12:24classes and political leaders but between the political classes, the
0:12:24 > 0:12:28elites and the people. If he can resolve that.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31There is so much hope invested in him. If you think that most of the
0:12:31 > 0:12:35world will first have seen Cyril Ramaphosa when he held the
0:12:35 > 0:12:38microphone for Nelson Mandela as he came out and made his first speeches
0:12:38 > 0:12:43as he came out of jail. That is a moment that anybody who was alive at
0:12:43 > 0:12:47the time remembers. He is now they're as the man carrying the
0:12:47 > 0:12:56beacon for Mandela and his ideology. It is whether he can rekindle that.
0:12:56 > 0:13:02I must say it that... Remember the mothers of the miners, he was one of
0:13:02 > 0:13:10the directors of the company there. He took the side of the employers.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14He did apologise for that later. He apologised but he is a political
0:13:14 > 0:13:17leader and should have known better. Now he is president of South Africa,
0:13:17 > 0:13:22will he be on the side of the workers and miners or will he be on
0:13:22 > 0:13:24the side of business? Thomas.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29This reminds me of when he held the microphone for Mandela, as Polly
0:13:29 > 0:13:35said. The future of South Africa rests as much as what happens with
0:13:35 > 0:13:39the ANC that they can resuscitate their reputation and what happens to
0:13:39 > 0:13:42South Africa it self. The two are essentially linked and we must see
0:13:42 > 0:13:45whether there is a possibility of the emergence of a new opposition
0:13:45 > 0:13:51party. Power corrupts and absolute power
0:13:51 > 0:13:55corrupts and you need a significant opposition to make democracy.
0:13:55 > 0:14:01You do and the ANC will try its best to clean up the Aegean stables, as
0:14:01 > 0:14:04it were, but we need a second political force in the country and
0:14:04 > 0:14:09it is difficult in South Africa's case because so much rests on the
0:14:09 > 0:14:14mythological charisma of ANC and it is hard to replace that.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18If the ANC messes up this one, within ten years we will get a shift
0:14:18 > 0:14:26of power. It may not be strong enough to take power. But the voters
0:14:26 > 0:14:29could opportunistically combined our forces to fight the ANC and they
0:14:29 > 0:14:31would be in a different position then.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35Well that happen? It would strategically make sense.
0:14:35 > 0:14:41Depends what Ramaphosa does. If he develops South Africa the way he
0:14:41 > 0:14:42does business to succeed economically but then radically
0:14:42 > 0:14:46share that wealth with the rest of the country, South Africa will be
0:14:46 > 0:14:49better than Britain. With the economy going, and it is
0:14:49 > 0:14:53shocking that the growth rate is only 1%, of a country that was seen
0:14:53 > 0:14:59as one of the great powerhouses... It is upon him to get the economy
0:14:59 > 0:15:02back. You say, unless he does that, there
0:15:02 > 0:15:06is a division between whether he helps workers or capitalism. He must
0:15:06 > 0:15:09do both and kick-start capitalism to generate wealth and redistribute as
0:15:09 > 0:15:14well. In the state of the union message
0:15:14 > 0:15:16yesterday, it was about accountability. If he is as good as
0:15:16 > 0:15:20his words, he will be accountable to the people, to the international
0:15:20 > 0:15:27watchers and to political elites in this country. It is important,
0:15:27 > 0:15:29accountability is everything in a democracy and we will see appears as
0:15:29 > 0:15:32good as his word. We shall leave South Africa now but
0:15:32 > 0:15:38take that word accountability into our next story.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Northern Ireland has been without its devolved government
0:15:40 > 0:15:41for 13 months now.
0:15:41 > 0:15:42Does this matter?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Talks between the two largest parties, the Democratic Unionist
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Party and Sinn Fein, to restore the status quo
0:15:47 > 0:15:48have broken down,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50and Westminster is reluctant to bring back direct rule.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54So, what happens next?
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Brian, how serious is this political mess, and how much does it impact
0:15:57 > 0:16:01on Mrs May's Government, who rely on the support of the DUP?
0:16:01 > 0:16:06I think it is very serious and I think it is more serious than the
0:16:06 > 0:16:12press attention it has received in British media anyway. It could not
0:16:12 > 0:16:17have happened at a worse time, given what we were talking about earlier
0:16:17 > 0:16:24coming down the pipeline as regards to Brexit. But where do they go from
0:16:24 > 0:16:27here in the next... First tell us what happened. What
0:16:27 > 0:16:31was the problem? They got so close...
0:16:31 > 0:16:36They did get close. What the talks fell to pieces over was an Irish
0:16:36 > 0:16:40language act, which Sinn Fein had been asking for three years, and it
0:16:40 > 0:16:47goes way back --. Years and years. It goes way back to an agreement and
0:16:47 > 0:16:51it is not about who speaks Irish but about recognition of the Irish
0:16:51 > 0:16:57language and the same level as English in Northern Ireland.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01When you think about some of the enormous challenges that these two
0:17:01 > 0:17:05parties have overcome in the last 20 years to get to where we are today,
0:17:05 > 0:17:09it is astonishing in a way to those who don't follow a daily to think
0:17:09 > 0:17:11that we could fall down over an issue of language.
0:17:11 > 0:17:17It is not bought my people have been comparing it to, well, they have a
0:17:17 > 0:17:19language act in Scotland and one in Wales but Northern Ireland is
0:17:19 > 0:17:25different. It goes back to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 when they
0:17:25 > 0:17:29talk about parity of esteem, and one of the things about that is the
0:17:29 > 0:17:34recognition of the Irish language and Scots Gaelic, the problem is
0:17:34 > 0:17:43that there was a deal on the table between the DUP and Sinn Fein and
0:17:43 > 0:17:46ultimately Arlene Foster the DUP leader could not sell it to the
0:17:46 > 0:17:51grassroots because they were afraid of things like road signs in two
0:17:51 > 0:17:57languages and quarters for civil servants seeking Irish... Which
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Michelle O'Neill, her counterpart in Sinn Fein and the other side of the
0:18:00 > 0:18:03table, said, well, the draft agreement does not even have that in
0:18:03 > 0:18:06it. It is a question of trust and
0:18:06 > 0:18:08misunderstanding. But will they get their?
0:18:08 > 0:18:12They will come back to this and they will have to come back to this
0:18:12 > 0:18:14because they cannot move forward, Sinn Fein will not allow
0:18:14 > 0:18:19power-sharing to move forward until this...
0:18:19 > 0:18:23It is a problem of personalities in a way? Because you look at these
0:18:23 > 0:18:28leaders... I think not, the problem is that it
0:18:28 > 0:18:32is not clear it is in either of their interests to actually run the
0:18:32 > 0:18:36place. In a time of extreme austerity, why do they want to be
0:18:36 > 0:18:38responsible for schools and hospitals and all the everyday
0:18:38 > 0:18:44drudgery which aid is to run a devolved Government under
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Westminster, where Westminster has screws to such extent you get
0:18:47 > 0:18:50nothing but blame? There is not really an incentive to either of
0:18:50 > 0:18:54them to them to want to govern? Who is to blame for the breakdown of
0:18:54 > 0:19:02negotiations? Whose fault is it? Is it the DUP's Fuld or Sinn Fein's?
0:19:02 > 0:19:06You could say it is the DUP's fault because it raises questions about
0:19:06 > 0:19:13Arlene Foster's inability to lead her party. You can also say Sinn
0:19:13 > 0:19:17Fein should not maybe make such a thing of it and everything else, but
0:19:17 > 0:19:22it is important that the Irish language act be important... But he
0:19:22 > 0:19:27was the thing, to go back to what you say, the DUP one direct rule
0:19:27 > 0:19:31because they can then tell the Tory Government at Westminster what to do
0:19:31 > 0:19:34because they have direct rule. Sinn Fein I think C in Brexit the best
0:19:34 > 0:19:42chance they have had in a generation to push the United Ireland agenda.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45So there are much bigger forces in play than the question of the Irish
0:19:45 > 0:19:49language act. Also a big issue of Ireland because
0:19:49 > 0:19:52Ireland and Brexit... If the Irish do not get what they need to get,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56from these things in Northern Ireland, they can just...
0:19:56 > 0:20:01I just want to pick up with the point from Polly, because you
0:20:01 > 0:20:05said... Maybe neither side wants to be ruling right now in this devolved
0:20:05 > 0:20:09assembly. But where does that leave the British Government? Karen
0:20:09 > 0:20:11Bradley, the Northern Ireland Secretary, says she considered
0:20:11 > 0:20:14options this weekend and what are her options?
0:20:14 > 0:20:17Options are she will have to take control and there is other option.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22They must do what the DUP says because the DUP is propping up the
0:20:22 > 0:20:28main Government. We must remember about the DUP that two thirds of its
0:20:28 > 0:20:34members are these extreme free Presbyterians, the Paisley founded
0:20:34 > 0:20:39cult, and... Cult is a bit strong language.
0:20:39 > 0:20:45I tend to refer to religions in general as cults.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47It is the largest party in Northern Ireland.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52It is the largest party that only 0.6% of people in Northern Ireland
0:20:52 > 0:20:55are actually free Presbyterians, so they do represent something very
0:20:55 > 0:20:59extreme. In the same sense that Sinn Fein does not really represent
0:20:59 > 0:21:01nationalist views either. We have ended up with the two most extreme
0:21:01 > 0:21:08parties who do not represent in all polls what people actually feel and
0:21:08 > 0:21:10where they stand. It is a misrepresentation of the real state
0:21:10 > 0:21:15of being in Northern Ireland. Interesting, and what is
0:21:15 > 0:21:18interesting, Vincent, in the African angle, is that Cyril Ramaphosa and
0:21:18 > 0:21:21we were talking about a month ago first played a role in bringing
0:21:21 > 0:21:28sides together and inspecting IRA arms dumps. So is there a role for
0:21:28 > 0:21:32outsiders at this point? No, I don't think he will have any
0:21:32 > 0:21:35opportunity. I'm not looking at him because he is
0:21:35 > 0:21:38busy, but is a role for any outsider in the Irish question?
0:21:38 > 0:21:43I'm sure the European Union, but in terms of Britain and on... I think
0:21:43 > 0:21:48the role of Ireland will be something that matters a lot. As an
0:21:48 > 0:21:54African, I will say something more antagonistic. And this is a fact. In
0:21:54 > 0:21:59Africa, since independence, and before independence, the whole idea
0:21:59 > 0:22:05of our survival has been fighting for independence. And whether we had
0:22:05 > 0:22:08this peace process in Northern Ireland, which somehow brought
0:22:08 > 0:22:12people mechanically together to be run together still within the United
0:22:12 > 0:22:17Kingdom, many Africans always have, whenever we talk about Northern
0:22:17 > 0:22:22Ireland, they ask me, but why doesn't written just leave Northern
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Ireland to go back to Ireland and become an independent country as
0:22:24 > 0:22:32well? An answer to why not? Because that is a question of history...
0:22:32 > 0:22:38That history is what rules... The rule is democracy in that if
0:22:38 > 0:22:41they voted to join the rest of Ireland we would be out in a flash.
0:22:41 > 0:22:47It is a majority in Northern Ireland by consent.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49But their condition and defined by history.
0:22:49 > 0:22:56It is not defined by history. I'm not quite sure the South of
0:22:56 > 0:23:00Ireland would be happy with that idea of being stuck with the DUP. We
0:23:00 > 0:23:04have been there and I'm glad we have won there but now that is not a
0:23:04 > 0:23:07viewpoint which will solve the current situation, I guess, not a
0:23:07 > 0:23:11viewpoint which is one of those of the current players.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14Alas I am much mistaken. It is very much a viewpoint held by
0:23:14 > 0:23:20Sinn Fein. They are saying, we stopped the fight but we have not
0:23:20 > 0:23:24stopped our struggle for independence.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26One of the most important part of the Good Friday Agreement was the
0:23:26 > 0:23:31South of Ireland gave up in its constitution its demand an
0:23:31 > 0:23:36expectation that the North should join with the South. That was a very
0:23:36 > 0:23:41important making of the peace that both sides understood.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45Around this table, we will all agree that it is a democratic process.
0:23:45 > 0:23:50It is and it has kept a piece, but we must remind people we must only
0:23:50 > 0:23:55think about future. But going back to the paralysis of
0:23:55 > 0:23:59the democratic process now, Thomas? I think if you hand back direct rule
0:23:59 > 0:24:02to Westminster, that is the end of devolution. What is devolution
0:24:02 > 0:24:08about? It is about self-government and if the parties concerned are to
0:24:08 > 0:24:13be in Northern Ireland unable to do that, what is the future of
0:24:13 > 0:24:16devolution in Northern Ireland? I think the British Government will
0:24:16 > 0:24:22be very reluctant to go back to direct rule, and they would come
0:24:22 > 0:24:26under huge pressure from the Irish Government, massive pressure from
0:24:26 > 0:24:29the Irish Government. At the moment, relations between the British and
0:24:29 > 0:24:34Irish governments are affixed on the whole issue of the border and the
0:24:34 > 0:24:38revelatory alignment and all that kind of thing and the customs union.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42And I don't think they will want to put direct rule in on top of all of
0:24:42 > 0:24:44that. There are enough, but what is the
0:24:44 > 0:24:48end of it? No direct rule... They will go back to... They will
0:24:48 > 0:24:51leave it for some weeks and come back to the talks again and see if
0:24:51 > 0:24:54they can get some kind of agreement and go back to that...
0:24:54 > 0:25:01What about the border? It has made it worse and hasn't
0:25:01 > 0:25:04helped but exacerbated up mythe whole thing hanging over the
0:25:04 > 0:25:07break-up of these doctors the issue of the border.
0:25:07 > 0:25:11That is coming down the pipe so fast that one wonders whether they can
0:25:11 > 0:25:14get agreement before the Brexit thing happens. At the moment the
0:25:14 > 0:25:19Irish Government is absolutely adamant that the deal they came to
0:25:19 > 0:25:25last December about regulatory alignment, you know, if Britain
0:25:25 > 0:25:28wants to leave the customs union and wants to leave the EU they will
0:25:28 > 0:25:33still have to have some form of keeping the border open and they are
0:25:33 > 0:25:36adamant about that. That is the number-1 priority for Dublin.
0:25:36 > 0:25:40That takes us back to the beginning, which is actually where must end.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42That's all we have time for this week.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Do join us again next week same time same place.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49But for now, thank you for watching and goodbye.