0:00:23 > 0:00:25Hello and a very warm welcome to Dateline London.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28I'm Carrie Gracie.
0:00:28 > 0:00:33This week we discuss the Brexit talks, look at the upcoming
0:00:33 > 0:00:47elections in Italy and weigh the political implications
0:00:47 > 0:00:49in China of the possibility of indefinite rule for
0:00:49 > 0:00:50President Xi Jinping.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53My guests this week are the Chinese writer Diane Wei Liang, Ned Temko
0:00:53 > 0:00:55of The Christian Science Monitor, Annalisa Piras, Italian film-maker
0:00:55 > 0:00:57and broadcaster and the American podcaster Michael Goldfarb.
0:00:57 > 0:01:01Welcome to you all.
0:01:01 > 0:01:08Let's go for Brexit first. Ned, you are watching it closely.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12Who's up and who's down on the Brexit escalator?
0:01:12 > 0:01:17I suppose, Theresa May, and you could say that much in recent
0:01:17 > 0:01:20months, but she made a big speech on Friday and gave us a little more
0:01:20 > 0:01:26clarity about what she wants from Brexit, which is to say, get out of
0:01:26 > 0:01:29the single market, customs union, and gave this spoken agreement which
0:01:29 > 0:01:34will guarantee pretty much unchanged access, she hopes, in areas of the
0:01:34 > 0:01:38European economy and in regulatory agencies that are important to
0:01:38 > 0:01:44Britain. So that was good. Much more importantly, she finally in public
0:01:44 > 0:01:49jettisoned this kind of flippant but obviously charming and entertaining
0:01:49 > 0:01:55line of people like Boris Johnson that Britain can have its cake and
0:01:55 > 0:02:02eat it.So she said nobody's going to get everything they want fuzzy
0:02:09 > 0:02:13absolutely, and she said the Briton will have to accept EU rulings, and
0:02:13 > 0:02:17it will have to pay if it wants to be part of the regulatory agencies.
0:02:17 > 0:02:23The problem is that from here on out, she's not negotiating only with
0:02:23 > 0:02:27her own party, and now it gets tough, because there are 27 other
0:02:27 > 0:02:34countries.And Annalisa, what do you make of the argument coming from
0:02:34 > 0:02:40some Europeans but this is just UK membership of the EU but without the
0:02:40 > 0:02:45badge?Absolutely. It looks very much like that. The view from
0:02:45 > 0:02:51Brussels was less positive than what Ned has just described, because yes,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55she has made a shift, and it is slightly clearer, but she cannot
0:02:55 > 0:02:59have her cake and eat it, and she was told that she cannot cherry
0:02:59 > 0:03:03pick. And what she came out with was a smaller cake with a lot of
0:03:03 > 0:03:11cherries in it. So it's not going to work. It feels like there is some
0:03:11 > 0:03:14kind of constant repetition, a tedious insistence on something that
0:03:14 > 0:03:19is not going to happen, that is not on the table. Not a small cake, not
0:03:19 > 0:03:26a big cake, not the cherries, and I think in Brussels everybody is
0:03:26 > 0:03:31getting really, really tired.And yet, Michael, it was welcomed widely
0:03:31 > 0:03:36across the party. She seems to have done what in her own party seemed if
0:03:36 > 0:03:39not impossible then improbable to kind of get everyone behind her with
0:03:39 > 0:03:44the speech she made on Friday. That's the point, isn't it? Here we
0:03:44 > 0:03:50are, we are approaching the one-year deadline until the date we are
0:03:50 > 0:03:53supposed to leave the European Union, and she is still having to
0:03:53 > 0:03:59placate that wing of her party that used to be called Euro-sceptic and
0:03:59 > 0:04:03now is called Brexiteer. 25 years ago this was going on. John Major
0:04:03 > 0:04:07had to do this all the time. He had eventually stand outside Downing
0:04:07 > 0:04:13Street and say to the Cabinet, back me or sack me, and to think that 25
0:04:13 > 0:04:18years later, and in some cases it is the same people, they are still
0:04:18 > 0:04:21holding not just their own Prime Minister, government, to ransom,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24they are holding the country to ransom. Meanwhile over in Brussels
0:04:24 > 0:04:29they are waiting to see what they are going to do. One of the things
0:04:29 > 0:04:32she reiterated several times in the speech, and this is becoming a
0:04:32 > 0:04:36mantra for the Brexiteers, take back control of our money and our
0:04:36 > 0:04:41borders. We are not in Europe. We have control of our money. We are
0:04:41 > 0:04:48not in Schengen, we have control of our borders. And in fact putting the
0:04:48 > 0:04:51kind of unspoken border that still existing between Northern Ireland
0:04:51 > 0:04:55and the Republic of Ireland back in play as a political issue, they have
0:04:55 > 0:05:01created a level of chaos. And one last thing about 25 years ago. When
0:05:01 > 0:05:06you do a negotiation in Brussels, everybody knows nobody knows a
0:05:06 > 0:05:11thing, because the negotiators are professional. They keep their mouths
0:05:11 > 0:05:15shut. We shouldn't be talking about in public what we want and what they
0:05:15 > 0:05:21want, because the real negotiations happen under cover of darkness, and
0:05:21 > 0:05:24journalists spend hours trying to figure out exactly what...There was
0:05:24 > 0:05:30quite a bit of detail in that speech to be fair. It did get into the
0:05:30 > 0:05:36nitty-gritty more than previously. But I want to ask Diane, this is so
0:05:36 > 0:05:39different from the politics of China that we have been discussing. From
0:05:39 > 0:05:43your position, what you make of the week we have just seen in terms of
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Theresa May's speech, in terms of the draft legal document that we saw
0:05:46 > 0:05:52in the EU earlier in the week?To me, it isn't much of an escalator
0:05:52 > 0:05:57going up and down, it is a conveyor belt going round and round. And
0:05:57 > 0:06:03Theresa May always says, I have made it clear. It has never been clear.
0:06:03 > 0:06:09And it is 20 months later, she still has the sound bites. To me, Theresa
0:06:09 > 0:06:14May is a typical middle manager who has no vision, who doesn't know
0:06:14 > 0:06:20where this thing is going and worse yet, she is very much boxed in by
0:06:20 > 0:06:28her party. I agree with Michael, she is still doing internal politics
0:06:28 > 0:06:32within the Tory party. This is the point where the country needs
0:06:32 > 0:06:35leadership. She hasn't provided that leadership for the past 20 months.
0:06:35 > 0:06:48She is not providing it now.OK, let's move on. I know many of our
0:06:48 > 0:06:52viewers will have opinions on this. If you want to give us your opinions
0:06:52 > 0:06:57on Brexit, Du Toit us, send an e-mail. Diane was talking about a
0:06:57 > 0:07:00country that she sees as having a middle manager for a leader, so
0:07:00 > 0:07:03let's move to the country that she is most interested in, which is of
0:07:03 > 0:07:06course China.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08The Chinese communist party has proposed
0:07:08 > 0:07:11that the current two-term limit for the presidency should be lifted.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16In this one-party state, what the communist party says goes.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18The national congress opens on Monday, so this dramatic
0:07:18 > 0:07:21change could be imminent.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24In China and around the world, the question is being asked -
0:07:24 > 0:07:29does 64-year-old Xi Jinping intend to be president for life?
0:07:29 > 0:07:35Diane, I'm going to go straight back to you.You see, this is what we see
0:07:35 > 0:07:39as for the Chinese, a strongman, strong leadership, however, is this
0:07:39 > 0:07:43really what we call leadership, or just a power grab? Xi Jinping
0:07:43 > 0:07:50certainly has the ambition to be the ruler of China for a life long time.
0:07:50 > 0:08:00This for someone who had grown up under Mao's commenters is a clear
0:08:00 > 0:08:04step back in history.Why is it a step backwards? A lot of outsiders
0:08:04 > 0:08:07will say, it is that type of totalitarian autocratic thing going
0:08:07 > 0:08:13on in China for decades, don't they have a 1-party state anyway, what's
0:08:13 > 0:08:17the difference?The differences, if you look at how China developed in
0:08:17 > 0:08:27the past 30 years, the reason China could prosper was because Max three
0:08:27 > 0:08:40put in reforms after Chairman Mao's death, the first was to move into a
0:08:40 > 0:08:48single economy, and the second was to put an end to the single person
0:08:48 > 0:08:51rule until death, which very much collapse the economy and one of the
0:08:51 > 0:08:54most populous countries of the world.So we have a collective
0:08:54 > 0:09:00leadership since the late 1970s. We have fixed term successions, every
0:09:00 > 0:09:07ten years the leadership gets thrown out and a new one comes in. And yet
0:09:07 > 0:09:12Xioaping who you mentioned who was the supreme league who came behind
0:09:12 > 0:09:15Chairman Mao, he only ever led the Bridge Association in the last few
0:09:15 > 0:09:19years of his life, yet he was paramount leader. Why does Xi
0:09:19 > 0:09:24Jinping need the title of president any longer? Can't he have his years
0:09:24 > 0:09:28in the spotlight and then move behind the curtain?Xi Jinping has
0:09:28 > 0:09:35had lots of years in the sun, but this is a man who grew up in the
0:09:35 > 0:09:40isolated compound. He is the son of one of the great ten marshals in
0:09:40 > 0:09:49China who founded Chinese commenters -- Communism. So he grew up with
0:09:49 > 0:09:54this entitlement that he belongs to that elite, and he sees duty,
0:09:54 > 0:09:59perhaps his destiny, to rule China and to rule China with absolute
0:09:59 > 0:10:03power.Yet his supporters would say that's not fair, that this is a man
0:10:03 > 0:10:07with a vision, it's a vision for a huge country, a superpower on the
0:10:07 > 0:10:12rise, and it will take time and central control to put that vision
0:10:12 > 0:10:15in place, and that's why he needs to stay on in power longer than his
0:10:15 > 0:10:22allotted ten years.The problem with personalised leadership is that then
0:10:22 > 0:10:25you are discounting all the institutions which China doesn't
0:10:25 > 0:10:31have very many to begin with, and then you create this leadership that
0:10:31 > 0:10:39would be more risky in terms of policy-making. What was to say, Xi
0:10:39 > 0:10:46Jinping could decide to push the red button one day. And it creates, in
0:10:46 > 0:10:51the long-term, instability, a vacuum, because there is no one who
0:10:51 > 0:10:55would be in succession.Let's open this act now to ever be us. Ned,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59China is no longer the inward looking isolated country it was at
0:10:59 > 0:11:03the death of Mao. It is a huge superpower with influence in every
0:11:03 > 0:11:08corner of the globe. What are the risks here, are there any for the
0:11:08 > 0:11:11rest of us?I think there is a risk for the world, and I don't want to
0:11:11 > 0:11:15overstate this notion of China taking over the world, but there are
0:11:15 > 0:11:19initiatives, there is obviously a huge expansion, not only just
0:11:19 > 0:11:23politically, but in terms of trade, economics, infrastructure, by China
0:11:23 > 0:11:29in the wider world. I think the danger is more general, that there
0:11:29 > 0:11:34is a kind of dawning of an age of new authoritarianism. You had people
0:11:34 > 0:11:40like Erdogan in Turkey, you have term limits, you have Putin in
0:11:40 > 0:11:47Moscow doing his Soviet shtick before the election, we have bigger
0:11:47 > 0:11:53missiles than you do. And there was always a balance of kind of this
0:11:53 > 0:11:56ballast of Western European democracy and particularly the
0:11:56 > 0:11:59United States, an imperfect country that sometimes did imperfect things,
0:11:59 > 0:12:06but when it was present in the international arena, and when it was
0:12:06 > 0:12:12led in such a way that the world looked to it the leadership, there
0:12:12 > 0:12:20was always a kind of curb an overly imbalanced trends like this.So you
0:12:20 > 0:12:23see an American vacuum?I see an America in retreat and an American
0:12:23 > 0:12:29absence to often from international affairs.Let's put it to the other
0:12:29 > 0:12:34part-time American around the table. Michael?You know, I think it's
0:12:34 > 0:12:37fascinating to listen to Diane talk about this, because it reminded me
0:12:37 > 0:12:45of a man I know in China who was born in a mud hut village in 1956,
0:12:45 > 0:12:5157, we learn famine, tens of millions died, he was ready for
0:12:51 > 0:12:56university at the time of the cultural Revolution and didn't get
0:12:56 > 0:13:01to university until he was in his 30s. Now he is a professor of
0:13:01 > 0:13:03philosophy, he makes a terrific living, his standard of living is
0:13:03 > 0:13:08every bit the equal of mine. And I do wonder if enough millions of
0:13:08 > 0:13:11people also tell that story if they would have a different view about
0:13:11 > 0:13:17the Chinese leadership. We in the West from the moment the Soviet
0:13:17 > 0:13:23Union collapsed decided that we were all going to be in republican
0:13:23 > 0:13:27democracies, we were all going to vote and so on, but if you look at
0:13:27 > 0:13:32it historically, neither China nor Russia has a long tradition of
0:13:32 > 0:13:37electoral democratic politics. It's not surprising that 25 years after
0:13:37 > 0:13:45this all began, and with two or three global economic crises, the
0:13:45 > 0:13:50strongmen decide to be strong.The question I was asking is, do you see
0:13:50 > 0:13:56risks?Of course there is a risk. China is irrelevant to all of us in
0:13:56 > 0:13:59very deep Weisner, and looking back at its imperial or communist
0:13:59 > 0:14:06history, succession in China is a dangerous time, so Xi Jinping is 64,
0:14:06 > 0:14:12his health is good, but what happens if something happens to him?This is
0:14:12 > 0:14:15the problem, and Martyn Woolford in the Financial Times had an excellent
0:14:15 > 0:14:23essay about that very point this week. Two points, one is that rivers
0:14:23 > 0:14:28of corruption flow to the leader. We see it a little bit in Washington,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32where people who know Trump personally get deals, get out of
0:14:32 > 0:14:39steel just before he slaps a tariff on it. That is a danger, and then
0:14:39 > 0:14:44there is the succession question. When he is 80, is he going to swim
0:14:44 > 0:14:49across the river to prove he is still hale and hearty? Then you
0:14:49 > 0:14:52create a succession problem. The wisdom of the 10-year thing from
0:14:52 > 0:14:57Deng Xioaping has been, I have got ten years, and then I can continue
0:14:57 > 0:15:03to have political power behind the scenes. This is inviting a potential
0:15:03 > 0:15:06problem, but it is also a potential problem that may not come, he is 64
0:15:06 > 0:15:11and looks very vigorous, but it may not come for quite some time.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Annalisa, what about the question that Ned raised in a way, what about
0:15:15 > 0:15:20the question for Europe? Liberal democracy, it is who we believe in
0:15:20 > 0:15:26Europe that we are and the UK, and yet this shift as Ned describes it
0:15:26 > 0:15:30to authoritarians?It is extremely worrying of course for the rest of
0:15:30 > 0:15:37the world, because China has given over and over again evidence that it
0:15:37 > 0:15:47is supporting a kind of expansionist Dyk territorial policy. It is
0:15:47 > 0:15:49increasing its military spending massively, so it is very bad news
0:15:49 > 0:16:04for the rest of the world. We are seeing like the Europe was formed at
0:16:04 > 0:16:10the end of the Second World War. It now has a very historic role to play
0:16:10 > 0:16:13because the European Union is based on international rules and it is
0:16:13 > 0:16:20based on the fact that everybody plays by the rules. In the world
0:16:20 > 0:16:24that looks like it is breaking bad, there is a strong need for Europeans
0:16:24 > 0:16:30to wake up and smell the coffee and say, we need to respect a form of
0:16:30 > 0:16:36shared rules around the world.Let's move back now to European politics.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39To Italy, and another strongman in the spotlight, because Italians
0:16:39 > 0:16:41go to the polls this weekend.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Some observers expect a return to centre stage for 81-year-old
0:16:44 > 0:16:54billionaire and four-times Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57Let's put that straight back to Annalisa. Do you expect is blocked
0:16:57 > 0:17:08to win?All the polls point to that, I'm afraid. They point to nobody
0:17:08 > 0:17:13really having an outright majority, but a coalition led by Silvio
0:17:13 > 0:17:20Berlusconi is set to get the highest number of votes.Which is kind of on
0:17:20 > 0:17:27the face of it amazing, end that you have someone who is currently not
0:17:27 > 0:17:35allowed to serve in politics because of his history, all the so-called
0:17:35 > 0:17:42bunga bunga parties, and you ask, how can we have this, it seems a bit
0:17:42 > 0:17:47dissident to be re-electing and 81-year-old with this history?
0:17:47 > 0:17:58Dissonant, yes, but not entirely. If you think about it, Berlusconi is
0:17:58 > 0:18:02the original populist, you think about the similarities between him
0:18:02 > 0:18:05and Trump, so it is coming back, nationalism is coming back,
0:18:05 > 0:18:09xenophobia is coming back. His brand of populism is very attractive, and
0:18:09 > 0:18:13he is also the devil you know. If you have been in that long in
0:18:13 > 0:18:18politics, 30 years, you move from being a newcomer to being a
0:18:18 > 0:18:23statesman.A national treasure! National treasure, but having said
0:18:23 > 0:18:29that, it would probably be a disaster, because the coalition that
0:18:29 > 0:18:32he has put together is the same but failed miserably when he was last
0:18:32 > 0:18:38time in power, so you have got the extreme right, the fascist that in
0:18:38 > 0:18:42these times are even more extreme than they used to be. They have been
0:18:42 > 0:18:47emboldened by the anti-migrant feeling which in Italy is very, very
0:18:47 > 0:18:51strong.And very strong I suppose because a lot of migrants are coming
0:18:51 > 0:18:56over the sea from Africa and their first stop is Italy.More than
0:18:56 > 0:19:03630,000 people from Africa have come to Italy in the last few years and
0:19:03 > 0:19:07it has a massive impact on the political landscape, so Berlusconi
0:19:07 > 0:19:12is leading this coalition of the Northern league that is xenophobic
0:19:12 > 0:19:16and racist, they want to deport ever be overnight, and the fascists which
0:19:16 > 0:19:23are very extreme as well. And they do not really get along. So if he
0:19:23 > 0:19:27ever manages to form a government, it is going to be very tricky.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Michael, you follow Italy. What is your take on all of this?For the
0:19:31 > 0:19:35last two years, we have heard two things. One is the 5-star movement
0:19:35 > 0:19:38which will probably get the most votes.For people less familiar with
0:19:38 > 0:19:49that?That was started by Beppe Grillo, who is a comedian, and he
0:19:49 > 0:19:53has stepped back now because it is a serious party and he is not a
0:19:53 > 0:20:02serious person. The 5-star party runs Rome?They have Rome, and they
0:20:02 > 0:20:14have to Turin, but they have not been very successful.When you have
0:20:14 > 0:20:17the power, and you're not successful, what does that do to
0:20:17 > 0:20:19your vote? The current government has been successful in terms of
0:20:19 > 0:20:25pulling Italy out from the deep, deep economic crisis but it was in
0:20:25 > 0:20:31in 2011 when the Europe crisis hit it almost as hard as it hit Greece.
0:20:31 > 0:20:38And now that the economy is growing reasonably well...Not that well.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42No, but in comparison to where it was five or six years ago, and
0:20:42 > 0:20:45unemployment is down. This is traditionally the route to electoral
0:20:45 > 0:20:55success. And the fact that he is not being successful says to me that yet
0:20:55 > 0:20:59again there is another centre left party that doesn't have a
0:20:59 > 0:21:03charismatic leader, that isn't able to pull together the necessary
0:21:03 > 0:21:06coalition of voters to win elections, and I think that is true
0:21:06 > 0:21:09in the US where the Democrats somehow couldn't beat Donald Trump,
0:21:09 > 0:21:15and even here where Jeremy Corbyn is polling well, but it is clear that
0:21:15 > 0:21:20he has pulled together enough votes. So what is coming?It is not just
0:21:20 > 0:21:24leadership. Annalisa is right to point out the importance of
0:21:24 > 0:21:29immigration, asylum. Those are issues that are not only coming to
0:21:29 > 0:21:33the fore in Europe, they are easily weaponised by populist, nationalist
0:21:33 > 0:21:40nativists. You raise the point of the EU's challenge in kind of coming
0:21:40 > 0:21:44together in the landscape we see in the wider world. One of the
0:21:44 > 0:21:48interesting things is that in addition to not liking immigrants,
0:21:48 > 0:21:54asylum seekers, etc, these parties tend to not much like the European
0:21:54 > 0:21:59Union either. And you wonder whether there will be a kind of drifting
0:21:59 > 0:22:04apart...That is a consideration, but you need more Europe, but the
0:22:04 > 0:22:11crisis of the European society, you can use Europe as a scapegoat for a
0:22:11 > 0:22:18lot of problems. But the thing about Italy is that contrary to most
0:22:18 > 0:22:22popular parties in the rest of Europe, the Italian populist
0:22:22 > 0:22:27parties, they are not Euro-sceptic. They are almost all in agreement
0:22:27 > 0:22:30that if Italy is to get out of its economic weaknesses, the last thing
0:22:30 > 0:22:35they need is to get out of the European Union.Diane, you were at
0:22:35 > 0:22:38the start kind of criticising Theresa May for being a middle
0:22:38 > 0:22:41manager rather than a strong leader. When you look at this Italian
0:22:41 > 0:22:45electoral story and the possible comeback of Silvio Berlusconi and
0:22:45 > 0:22:48the discussion about the lack of strong leadership in the centre
0:22:48 > 0:22:56left, what is your take on that? Italy to me is not one conveyor
0:22:56 > 0:23:00belts, there are ten conveyor belts, and the Italian government is always
0:23:00 > 0:23:05changing, there are always elections, always new governments,
0:23:05 > 0:23:11and there are political issues such as immigration. Italy has a serious
0:23:11 > 0:23:16problem with fundamental economic issues, and Italy has not been
0:23:16 > 0:23:21growing in real terms for the past ten years. And as the eighth largest
0:23:21 > 0:23:26economy in the world, Italians are not seeing the benefit of economic
0:23:26 > 0:23:31recovery. And I think that is a major issue for Italy. Whoever wins
0:23:31 > 0:23:38the election. They need to start governing. They need to start
0:23:38 > 0:23:41reforming the country. It has a lot of institutional issues embedded
0:23:41 > 0:23:45with the economy.And do you see a contrast them with China? Very
0:23:45 > 0:23:49economically successful in the past 30 years without any elections. You
0:23:49 > 0:23:53are describing a world with too many elections to handle, which is
0:23:53 > 0:23:58economically unsuccessful. Is that contrast that you would recognise?
0:23:58 > 0:24:01This is something that the Chinese government very much utilises in
0:24:01 > 0:24:09their rhetoric. Look at the rest of the world, we used a look to
0:24:09 > 0:24:14America, the West, Europe, for inspiration, but a lot of elections,
0:24:14 > 0:24:18a lot of politics, and we need stability. We need a strong leader.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23We need to focus on economic...We are running out of time, but just a
0:24:23 > 0:24:26quick word from the body on what we come to the end of this programme,
0:24:26 > 0:24:30which is almost a look at the political model. Who wants to go
0:24:30 > 0:24:35first. Annalisa?Certainly as an Italian and looking at the Italian
0:24:35 > 0:24:41model, there are serious doubts about how representative democracy
0:24:41 > 0:24:46has been serving the interests of the Italian citizens. And there is
0:24:46 > 0:24:49more and more a reflection and debate about what has happened in
0:24:49 > 0:24:55China.As in, people admiring the Chinese model?People asking
0:24:55 > 0:25:01themselves, the long-term planning, this kind of determination in
0:25:01 > 0:25:04pushing something regardless of the ins and outs of the political
0:25:04 > 0:25:10instability, is this something that we need to look at? It is a heresy
0:25:10 > 0:25:14because we believe in democracy. Indeed. Michael, a quick word?It is
0:25:14 > 0:25:19about national purpose. In the 25 years after the Second World War,
0:25:19 > 0:25:21America had unparalleled growth. They made up for the great
0:25:21 > 0:25:24depression and the dislocation of the Second World War. I grew up in
0:25:24 > 0:25:29that period, and ever since then it has been a slow decline. China has
0:25:29 > 0:25:33even longer to make up for. It has people as I was describing earlier
0:25:33 > 0:25:36to Diane who have national purpose, and I don't think they think too
0:25:36 > 0:25:41much about the politics of the situation, but eventually they will
0:25:41 > 0:25:44reach full capacity, too, and they will have time to reflect on
0:25:44 > 0:25:50politics.Ned?I am not in favour of abolishing terms Fred Trump! Be
0:25:50 > 0:25:57careful what you wish for. Those of us who have worked in countries as
0:25:57 > 0:26:02foreign correspondents.You have been in the Soviet Union before...
0:26:02 > 0:26:07Was it Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of
0:26:07 > 0:26:09government except every other form. And on that very important and
0:26:09 > 0:26:14thoughtful point, we will have to leave it. Thank you all so very much
0:26:14 > 0:26:16for coming in.
0:26:16 > 0:26:17That's all we have time for.
0:26:17 > 0:26:19Do join us next week, same time same place.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22But for now, thank you for watching and goodbye.