0:00:24 > 0:00:26Hello.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28Welcome.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30This is Dateline London, the programme which brings together
0:00:30 > 0:00:31international correspondents based here with British columnists
0:00:31 > 0:00:33who write about the world beyond.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36It's been a week in which the old Cold War powers appear to be
0:00:36 > 0:00:39flexing their muscles, and Europeans fear what it may mean for them.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Donald Trump - trade warrior and peace maker?
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Was someone in Russia responsible for the poisoning on an English
0:00:44 > 0:00:46street of a double-agent?
0:00:46 > 0:00:50And, after Italians deliver the political mainstream another
0:00:50 > 0:00:54drubbing, are Europe's leaders capable of fighting back?
0:00:54 > 0:00:57With me: Yasmin Alibhai Brown, who came to the UK as a refugee
0:00:57 > 0:01:00from a hostile country and is now a political commentator.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Agnes Poirier of the French news magazine
0:01:02 > 0:01:03Marianne.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Stephanie Baker, US journalist writing from here
0:01:05 > 0:01:07for Bloomberg Markets.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Ian Birrell, columnist with the British newspaper
0:01:09 > 0:01:14The Mail on Sunday.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19A warm welcome to you all, good to have you with us again.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21The news that Donald Trump is to meet Kim Jong-Un,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23the North Korean leader, to discuss reducing the nuclear
0:01:23 > 0:01:24threat surprised many.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26Only hours earlier he'd been posing as a warrior,
0:01:26 > 0:01:29at least in trade terms - signing into law tariffs aimed
0:01:29 > 0:01:31at repelling imports of steel and aluminium.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34"Trade wars are good and easy to win", President Trump tweeted.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Six months ago, the President warned he could unleash "fire, fury and,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40frankly, power" against Pyongyang.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Perhaps the summit with Kim suggest that's a war Mr Trump
0:01:43 > 0:01:51doesn't think he can win.
0:01:51 > 0:01:55Ian, is it evident that his combination of mockery and threats
0:01:55 > 0:02:01has delivered?No, I think obviously the positive and optimistic hope of
0:02:01 > 0:02:05this is that two mavericks might make a deal. But I think it's highly
0:02:05 > 0:02:10unlikely. I think the truth is, Trump has a habit of being boastful
0:02:10 > 0:02:13and bragging and and and e-fit very different things are happening. Here
0:02:13 > 0:02:18he has gone out on a limb, we are seeing him grow back a bit in
0:02:18 > 0:02:22America, he has gone out on a limb and promised this, giving away with
0:02:22 > 0:02:26one of his cards, just like with recognition of Jerusalem. The truth
0:02:26 > 0:02:30is, they are talking about very different things. Trump wants to see
0:02:30 > 0:02:34nuclear weapon is removed from Pyongyang. Qian Yan will not do
0:02:34 > 0:02:39that, it is a vile state run by a very small elite and they depend on
0:02:39 > 0:02:44the nuclear weapons for safety.You have been to both North and South
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Korea?I spent a long time with dissidents, somebody in the special
0:02:48 > 0:02:52forces with North Korea, he said that during the sunshine policy,
0:02:52 > 0:02:57which won a Nobel Prize, they were ramping up ideas of how to attack
0:02:57 > 0:03:02cities in the south, how to use nerve agents, building up stockpiles
0:03:02 > 0:03:05of nuclear and biological weapons. They are talking about very
0:03:05 > 0:03:11different things. North Korea are talking about things such as
0:03:11 > 0:03:13demilitarisation, denuclearisation of the Korean peninsular and a
0:03:13 > 0:03:17removal of the threat. What they are releasing, they don't want America
0:03:17 > 0:03:20and American weapons on the peninsula. It is a very different
0:03:20 > 0:03:24thing. People always talk, they want to hear talks, they want to see
0:03:24 > 0:03:28people getting around the table together. But nobody comes up with,
0:03:28 > 0:03:33where is the deal? There is no deal, because Pyongyang will not remove
0:03:33 > 0:03:36its weaponry and can't be trusted. And the world can't give anything to
0:03:36 > 0:03:49help.Is Kim Jong-un playing Donald Trump?I think that is the fear.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Sceptics have said that he could be walking into a clap. And Trump,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55because he is very confident, thinks that this is a sales job and he can
0:03:55 > 0:03:58market his way out of it. It is consistent with the reality TV show
0:03:58 > 0:04:02formats of the presidency. That, you know, he loves to surprise, he loves
0:04:02 > 0:04:06the unconventional, he loves to be first to do something. In this case,
0:04:06 > 0:04:10the first time a sitting US president meets with a North Korean
0:04:10 > 0:04:13leader. There has been speculation in the US that this was an attempt
0:04:13 > 0:04:21to distract from a more damaging story, this alleged hush money paid
0:04:21 > 0:04:24to this pornography star, headlines about Stormy Daniels were dominating
0:04:24 > 0:04:30and this is a way to push those down.This is an actress who claims
0:04:30 > 0:04:33that she had a relationship with Trump, but he has denied a.His
0:04:33 > 0:04:40lawyer paid her off before the US election. Some people are saying, if
0:04:40 > 0:04:47he can't do an airtight deal with a pornography star, how is he going to
0:04:47 > 0:04:52do a deal with North Korea?! The White House has suffered
0:04:52 > 0:04:55unprecedented departures in turnover, the State Department is
0:04:55 > 0:04:59not operating at full capacity, we don't have an ambassador to South
0:04:59 > 0:05:04Korea or an Assistant Secretary of State for Asia. The person on point
0:05:04 > 0:05:08for North Korea stepped down in frustration. Rex Tillerson was
0:05:08 > 0:05:12blindsided by this and not consulted. If you are going to do a
0:05:12 > 0:05:16deal with North Korea, you do need to prepare. Of course, diplomacy is
0:05:16 > 0:05:20better than the sort of schoolyard taunts on Twitter, but this is a
0:05:20 > 0:05:26high risk gamble that may not pay off.What about Ian's point about
0:05:26 > 0:05:30mavericks, mavericks can we the rules" we have got these two
0:05:30 > 0:05:36gorillas, really,who are really shaping up for a fight or a victory.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41But I disagree with what he and has just said. We were thinking of how
0:05:41 > 0:05:47we might disagree exact but I do disagree, over 60 years, the Korean
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Bird's Hill has been in this situation. What was really moving
0:05:50 > 0:05:53was to see how the people on both sides came together. They wanted to
0:05:53 > 0:06:01come together over the Winter Olympic Games. And I think one has
0:06:01 > 0:06:06to think of a way to demilitarise the entire zone. The US has no
0:06:06 > 0:06:10business being there anyway. And Japan now has two rethink its own
0:06:10 > 0:06:16policies on defence. But I certainly think that this doesn't come out of
0:06:16 > 0:06:21anything sensible like that, it comes out of these two men, who are
0:06:21 > 0:06:27arguably the least rational and most macho men upon the planet.Two meant
0:06:27 > 0:06:32Yasmine is not going to invite around 40!I think, you know, you
0:06:32 > 0:06:36save a North Korean leader is rational, I have the feeling he is
0:06:36 > 0:06:40pretty rational, he's ruthless -- Jasmine is not going to invite them
0:06:40 > 0:06:46around 40. I don't think Rocket Man... I don't think he is
0:06:46 > 0:06:51ridiculous at all. The idea actually comes from him. I like his father
0:06:51 > 0:06:55and grandfather, he's going to be treated as an equal. You know, his
0:06:55 > 0:07:01strange family has been ruling. And years. And the Korean -- for 70
0:07:01 > 0:07:07years. The war hasn't officially ended. I agree with you when you
0:07:07 > 0:07:11save or is room for massive misunderstanding. I think the
0:07:11 > 0:07:15sanctions are beginning to bite and this is the reason why came once you
0:07:15 > 0:07:20have some time. -- Y Kim Jong-un wants to have some time. It happened
0:07:20 > 0:07:24by former Jimmy Carter and Madeleine Albright, it's been going on for
0:07:24 > 0:07:29decades. Each time North Korea says, OK, we're not going to suspend...
0:07:29 > 0:07:34But I'm saying it's nothing to do with him or Trump in that sense,
0:07:34 > 0:07:37they are playing games with each other. They want to be whatever they
0:07:37 > 0:07:43think they can be. You are right about the first, you know, I'm on
0:07:43 > 0:07:49telly, and always the start of my own drama, what goes on. Ian has
0:07:49 > 0:07:53done programmes on it, and other journalists do, what goes on in
0:07:53 > 0:07:57North Korea is just so shocking, and we don't know half of it, really.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01I'm not defending the country, but I do think the people of these two
0:08:01 > 0:08:09careers need a break. But we don't talk aboutChina and Japan. China
0:08:09 > 0:08:15doesn't want to see the US have more say than China. But China has been
0:08:15 > 0:08:18retreating. Usually it was the choice, you know, the first choice
0:08:18 > 0:08:26for North Korea. So this is really, you know, the Asian countries, how
0:08:26 > 0:08:30they going to react? They have got something to play that.Also, we
0:08:30 > 0:08:36must not fall for the PR of North Korea. The reality is, it is such a
0:08:36 > 0:08:40tightly restricted country, you have to be part of the elite even to live
0:08:40 > 0:08:43in Pyongyang, you need paperwork to go anywhere in the country. The only
0:08:43 > 0:08:47people to come out are members of the elite. The elite are doing very
0:08:47 > 0:08:52well there. The rest of society is being crossed. At the core of it, it
0:08:52 > 0:08:56is the world's worst regime. It is not just hype and propaganda. This
0:08:56 > 0:09:03is a country which runs death camps and have been accused by the UN of
0:09:03 > 0:09:08breaking also also rules.But the people on both sides are desperate.
0:09:08 > 0:09:13Divided countries help nobody in the end. Long-term, 100 years from now,
0:09:13 > 0:09:17one wishes to see a united Korea. I'm going to be ruthless now and
0:09:17 > 0:09:21we're going to move on.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23A week ago, perhaps as you were watching this programme,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26a man and his daughter collapsed onto a bench in an English cathedral
0:09:26 > 0:09:28city.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Sergei Skripal was a Russian former double agent,
0:09:30 > 0:09:32jailed by Moscow and then freed in a spy swap.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34He's lived quietly in the UK ever since.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36The use of nerve agent prompted suspicion of state-sponsored
0:09:36 > 0:09:40poisoning, not exactly discouraged by the presenter on state television
0:09:40 > 0:09:43who warned Russian traitors - "don't go to England, something
0:09:43 > 0:09:46is not right there".
0:09:46 > 0:09:52Yasmin, what's wrong?Well, I think it is... This is not a surprise. We
0:09:52 > 0:09:56don't know. I keep hearing, we don't have the full facts. I don't even
0:09:56 > 0:10:00know if we ever will have the kind of evidence that people need to
0:10:00 > 0:10:06prove whether it came from, who did what. We still don't know what
0:10:06 > 0:10:10happened to Litvinenko, we don't know what properly happened that.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14This man was killed in 2006 because of polonium, nobody can actually say
0:10:14 > 0:10:20for certain who killed him.The son of the man who's just been killed by
0:10:20 > 0:10:24in mysterious circumstances last year in Saint Petersburg. We don't
0:10:24 > 0:10:31know. But what we do know is that Putin asked for the law to be
0:10:31 > 0:10:33changed at one point so that traitors who had fled abroad could
0:10:33 > 0:10:39be cut down. So, I see connections between those kind of ambitions and
0:10:39 > 0:10:43what we see. And why did they move to Salisbury? This really is a
0:10:43 > 0:10:50question! LAUGHTER
0:10:50 > 0:10:54It is near Porton Down, the research establishment for chemical and
0:10:54 > 0:10:58biological weapons.Britain is really a magnet for all spy stories.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02There is something in the British psyche that attracts that, but
0:11:02 > 0:11:05that's another programme. What is striking is that you could have
0:11:05 > 0:11:11thought that this man was safe. You know, he was a double agent, he
0:11:11 > 0:11:14admitted to his crime, he had been sentenced and officially pardoned
0:11:14 > 0:11:19and been the object of a swap, so everything is fine. So now they are
0:11:19 > 0:11:26digging up his wife's two -- grave and his son.People are wearing
0:11:26 > 0:11:32hazmat suit in case there is any contamination.Whoever did it, I
0:11:32 > 0:11:37think the connections are pretty right, I mean, it's extremely
0:11:37 > 0:11:46frightening. You know, they say we can out strike whenever we want and
0:11:46 > 0:11:52whoever we want, and there's nothing much you can do. I have the feeling
0:11:52 > 0:11:56that if in 2006, almost 12 years ago, if the British Government had
0:11:56 > 0:11:59reacted more forcefully, perhaps they wouldn't have considered it
0:11:59 > 0:12:05twice before doing what they did in Salisbury. But it's going to take
0:12:05 > 0:12:08another ten years, you know, we're starting the major and long-lasting
0:12:08 > 0:12:14inquiry. We will know more in ten years' time.But we can just shut
0:12:14 > 0:12:18down their bank accounts.This is the point. London, the UK, has more
0:12:18 > 0:12:23power than many Western countries because of the amount of Russian
0:12:23 > 0:12:29money that flows through London. And so if they want to make the Russians
0:12:29 > 0:12:35pay, they've got the ability to.And the local MP who is a government
0:12:35 > 0:12:38minister and also happens to be in the British Treasury, the British
0:12:38 > 0:12:43finance ministry, but something on social media to say, there are
0:12:43 > 0:12:48financial measures, this is one of the weapons that could be used.They
0:12:48 > 0:12:51haven't implemented the legislation to make the Litvinenko law take
0:12:51 > 0:12:57effect.To seize assets even before proof?This would allow them to
0:12:57 > 0:13:00blacklist Russian individuals with ties to human rights abuses or
0:13:00 > 0:13:05Russian government officials that they have traced to nefarious
0:13:05 > 0:13:10activities. So they could push ahead with that, and they really need to.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14And if they do, you know, narrow down the cause of this and who was
0:13:14 > 0:13:18responsible, there should be much stronger response, I agree with
0:13:18 > 0:13:22that. The response to Litvinenko was not strong enough. They should
0:13:22 > 0:13:26consider a boycott of the World Cup, which is an incredibly important...
0:13:26 > 0:13:31It is due to open this summer in Russia.It is an incredibly
0:13:31 > 0:13:35important event for Putin, is a his moment on the international stage.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39That is a way to make him pay.One of the Government Security ministers
0:13:39 > 0:13:43were saying on Saturday morning, someone has come onto our soil who
0:13:43 > 0:13:53has recklessly and brazenly committed -- in nasty crime using a
0:13:53 > 0:13:58nerve agent, you have to act in those circumstances?There are three
0:13:58 > 0:14:00certainties. President Putin wiggles away and finds cracks in Western
0:14:00 > 0:14:05societies and is pushing his right-wing malevolent creed, in
0:14:05 > 0:14:10Syria he is warming and killing thousands of people. He did the
0:14:10 > 0:14:13first annexation on European soil and shot down a civilian airliner,
0:14:13 > 0:14:17he kills lots of his enemies. The second certainty is that Britain
0:14:17 > 0:14:21will continue to talk tough and do nothing. We did nothing over
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Ukraine, really, few sanctions here and there. The third thing is very
0:14:25 > 0:14:31clear, Britain is the capital of dirty money in the world. All of the
0:14:31 > 0:14:35money is washed here by British lawyers, estate agents and bankers
0:14:35 > 0:14:37and sanctioned by British politicians. If Britain wants to
0:14:37 > 0:14:43take tough action instead of registering state-controlled Mafia
0:14:43 > 0:14:45is basically companies that are operating here instead of allowing
0:14:45 > 0:14:49all of this money to washed through here, Britain will do nothing and
0:14:49 > 0:14:54carry on taking the money. And it is to our shame.All we are about is
0:14:54 > 0:14:59money now.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Italy's national election may not have delivered a government yet,
0:15:02 > 0:15:04but there was a clear winner - populism.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Between them, 69% of voters supported parties that have
0:15:06 > 0:15:07challenged the political mainstream.
0:15:07 > 0:15:08It isn't just Italy.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10From Germany to Greece, from the Netherlands to Hungary,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12a consensus that held since the collapse of
0:15:12 > 0:15:16the Eastern Bloc 30 years appears to be breaking up.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Angela Merkel, now that Germany has a government again,
0:15:19 > 0:15:22albeit one from a shrunken political centre, says she'll roll
0:15:22 > 0:15:24up her sleeves to begin reform of the European Union.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27France's Emmanuel Macron, a rare mainstream winner of the last year,
0:15:27 > 0:15:29even suggested post-Brexit Britain would soon be hammering on the EU's
0:15:29 > 0:15:35door, pleading to be let back in.
0:15:35 > 0:15:41Is that a case of hubris?Can I unpick that narrative of doom and
0:15:41 > 0:15:47gloom and populism in golfing Europe that you find mainly in the British
0:15:47 > 0:15:52media. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if you go back since
0:15:52 > 0:15:58Brexit, since Britain shot itself in the foot, there's this element of
0:15:58 > 0:16:04schadenfreude. They want, you know, some part of the British media, the
0:16:04 > 0:16:08conservative part, they want everybody else act as unreasonably.
0:16:08 > 0:16:13There was not a day passed without an article before the French
0:16:13 > 0:16:18presidential election saying Marine Le Pen is going to win. We want her
0:16:18 > 0:16:22to win, probably. No, she didn't, and she was never going to be
0:16:22 > 0:16:25elected. Then Angela Merkel can't form that coalition in September.
0:16:25 > 0:16:30Then you have all of these articles, oh, Germany is unstable, Germany is
0:16:30 > 0:16:34unfinished, Merkel is going to go. Of course she wasn't going to go. It
0:16:34 > 0:16:39was going to be difficult, she did it as expected. As for the Italian
0:16:39 > 0:16:46elections. I mean, I wouldn't say it is 70% that voted for popular --
0:16:46 > 0:16:50populism.If they voted for 5-star and the Northern league coalition.
0:16:50 > 0:16:59They were pro-European and very and -- until very recently. Look at the
0:16:59 > 0:17:02electoral system in Italy, it's been like this since the Second World
0:17:02 > 0:17:06War. I'm not surprised at all by what's happening there, and it's not
0:17:06 > 0:17:10going to make much difference. Forget about Matteo Renzi, once
0:17:10 > 0:17:17elected with 40% only a few back. Things change in Italy, and that's
0:17:17 > 0:17:23not going to change. Merkel is there, Macron was elected
0:17:23 > 0:17:27not going to change. Merkel is there, Macron was elected, yes,
0:17:27 > 0:17:31Macron is very pro-European and 40 and like most young Europeans and
0:17:31 > 0:17:37British young people, they offer more integration. And it's going to
0:17:37 > 0:17:43happen. It doesn't mean that, you know, the complacency and lack of
0:17:43 > 0:17:47democracy in the European institutions shouldn't be addressed.
0:17:47 > 0:17:57And I think there's a recognition of that. And Brexit was a shock.I
0:17:57 > 0:18:01think there's a real question mark over this, you know, Franco German
0:18:01 > 0:18:05plan for closer integration now as a result of this election. You know,
0:18:05 > 0:18:12more than 50% of Italian voters voted for anti-EU parties. You know,
0:18:12 > 0:18:17Italy is now dominated by politicians who have promised deep
0:18:17 > 0:18:22tax cuts, lavish spending programmes, and who while anti-EU.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26You know, look at for instance the plan for a banking union in Europe.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31Do you really think that German banks are going to sign up to a
0:18:31 > 0:18:35banking union to stop Italian banks when Italy is dominated by
0:18:35 > 0:18:39politicians that have decided to just below budget spending open? You
0:18:39 > 0:18:45know, I think that is...You are taking a longer view, talking about
0:18:45 > 0:18:4950 years' time.Right, in the broader context you have seen the
0:18:49 > 0:18:51collapse of the centre-left across Europe, which is really down to the
0:18:51 > 0:18:56fact that the social Democratic parties have not defended the
0:18:56 > 0:18:59welfare state as they had previously, and they squeezed it as
0:18:59 > 0:19:05a way of paying for, you know, the outcome of the 2008 financial
0:19:05 > 0:19:09crisis. And this is the price. They've allowed these Populist
0:19:09 > 0:19:14parties to come up with a similar type of, you know, platform off, you
0:19:14 > 0:19:18know, we're going to give you, we're going to give you a social spending
0:19:18 > 0:19:21programmes that, you know, harks back to a decade ago, even though we
0:19:21 > 0:19:25can't afford it. I mean, look at Italy now. It's got the second
0:19:25 > 0:19:33highest debt to GDP ratio in the Eurozone. 130% to GDP. So the idea
0:19:33 > 0:19:36that they can put shared with those spending programmes is very
0:19:36 > 0:19:40unrealistic.They have to have another election, it's not clear.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44I'm so pleased you said what you did, I really needed somebody to say
0:19:44 > 0:19:49that, because I'm sick and tired of... I mean, Ukip, including this
0:19:49 > 0:19:54institution. Big up Ukip in the most shameful way. Whereas you could
0:19:54 > 0:19:59debate?But if you are talking about those continental results and --
0:19:59 > 0:20:02where is Ukip today. We saw the collapse of the Greek left. A lot of
0:20:02 > 0:20:06people thought that was down to corruption and denying true
0:20:06 > 0:20:11statistics. Dutch Labour has fallen too, less than 6%, used to be the
0:20:11 > 0:20:17main party of the left. The French Socialists, 7.5%.And the extreme
0:20:17 > 0:20:22right as well.The German SDP, worst result in some two years, something
0:20:22 > 0:20:27is going on, isn't it?The Brexit thing has kicked up a dust storm and
0:20:27 > 0:20:33there is a crisis. But in the end, good sense will prevail. I think the
0:20:33 > 0:20:36European Commission and European parliaments need more power. I think
0:20:36 > 0:20:41to have a kind of, you know, a parliament which doesn't have any
0:20:41 > 0:20:46power, that has been part of the problem. Reform is absolutely
0:20:46 > 0:20:49needed. I think the European project is much bigger than these individual
0:20:49 > 0:20:55kind of rather spoiled people reactions. The narrative we needed
0:20:55 > 0:21:02to change, when this crash happened, we needed people to say, it's these
0:21:02 > 0:21:04bankers, these capitalists, the worst kind of capitalists, who
0:21:04 > 0:21:11brought us here. Instead the populist people bring -- lane three
0:21:11 > 0:21:14immigrants and the EU, we didn't capture the narrative. I'm really
0:21:14 > 0:21:17pleased you've captured that narrative.I think you are both been
0:21:17 > 0:21:21very complacent. I agree on the narrative, I think all the wrong
0:21:21 > 0:21:24people were blamed and I don't disagree on that at all. But let's
0:21:24 > 0:21:28look at Europe and Eastern Europe as well, look at Poland, Hungary,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Italy, Spain. You say that France was fine because the far right
0:21:31 > 0:21:35didn't win, but the far right where the second choice in the election.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40But Marine Le Pen is on the way out. Ukip has disappeared, but of course
0:21:40 > 0:21:43it has, it has achieved its aims and the Tory Party has switched hard to
0:21:43 > 0:21:48the right. The idea is that populism has disappeared, we are living in
0:21:48 > 0:21:52interesting times. I know it is breaking the rule, but none of us
0:21:52 > 0:21:55really have a clue where it's going. It could be going in any direction.
0:21:55 > 0:22:01The idea that we can just...Week and be fatalistic.I'm not
0:22:01 > 0:22:08fatalistic. I'd just fighting for what I believe in, tolerance and
0:22:08 > 0:22:10borders which are fluid. The idea that populism isn't a threat is...
0:22:10 > 0:22:14The truth is that we are in very turbulent times which could go
0:22:14 > 0:22:19anywhere, there is such distrust of institutions, politicians, banks,
0:22:19 > 0:22:21the church, everything. So many illusions have been shattered.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25That's why this is both an interesting and a scary time.We
0:22:25 > 0:22:32need to fight back. We can't just say...We can't be complacent.We
0:22:32 > 0:22:36are saying, fight! This rolling over before popular resin with the
0:22:36 > 0:22:40history of Europe. Can't afford that -- rolling over before populism with
0:22:40 > 0:22:45the history of Europe.Why the institution is not able to grasp
0:22:45 > 0:22:50that, and what is that, however you want to describe it, that broad set
0:22:50 > 0:22:54of politicians from the Christian Democrats to the social Democrats in
0:22:54 > 0:22:57so many continental European countries have appeared to be
0:22:57 > 0:23:03superfine, weak, or unable to keep --, but answers in the way that
0:23:03 > 0:23:07Stephanie was talking about?I don't think they have been supine or
0:23:07 > 0:23:10complacent. I think, you know, when you go around the world can actually
0:23:10 > 0:23:14when you go around the world, people say to you, I've just been in
0:23:14 > 0:23:19Africa, in India, they say, isn't it extraordinary what has been achieved
0:23:19 > 0:23:24by the EU? Here, thousands of years of war. It's been kind of put to
0:23:24 > 0:23:28bed, actually. And, tough though it is, how nationalism and pan
0:23:28 > 0:23:35nationalism play out, this is admired. In Africa they admired. We
0:23:35 > 0:23:40are a bit spoiled. Because we don't get the kind of that we see.I've
0:23:40 > 0:23:44been to 60 countries in the last five years and I've never once heard
0:23:44 > 0:23:48anyone say, I wish we had the EU! They may like a lot of things about
0:23:48 > 0:23:54Europe... And we are so sceptical of democracy at a time when people are
0:23:54 > 0:23:58fighting and dying for it around the world, and Trump is actually also
0:23:58 > 0:24:01being so cavalier with it and backing autocrats and everything,
0:24:01 > 0:24:05that is part of the problem. We don't realise how precious democracy
0:24:05 > 0:24:10is.It is a generational point. You are optimistic about younger people
0:24:10 > 0:24:15being pro-European and wanting more integration. There is a lot of
0:24:15 > 0:24:18evidence from the very respected attitude studies that they do every
0:24:18 > 0:24:24year, the pew studies, last autumn. It said 29% of the people that they
0:24:24 > 0:24:29survey approved of a government in which a strong leader can make
0:24:29 > 0:24:33decisions without interference from Parliament or courts. People are not
0:24:33 > 0:24:35that bothered about democracy, that's quite worrying, we have
0:24:35 > 0:24:43become too complacent.There is a dissatisfaction within young people.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46On the other hand, they didn't bother to go and vote for Brexit.
0:24:46 > 0:24:53And then they bothered to vote in favour of Jeremy Corbyn just a sort
0:24:53 > 0:24:57of Camilo, do something.They did vote. A lot more voted than they
0:24:57 > 0:25:03were given credit by. Like I will give you another statisticfrom the
0:25:03 > 0:25:09foundation. The least happy places in the world and Europe and North
0:25:09 > 0:25:15America. Where is the happiest country in the world? Nigeria.It
0:25:15 > 0:25:19shows that the idealism that has existed in lots of likely places,
0:25:19 > 0:25:23there is optimism in lots of part is in the world. But in Europe and
0:25:23 > 0:25:26North America we are struggling to see it when we have things that
0:25:26 > 0:25:30others are fighting.
0:25:30 > 0:25:30Thank others are fighting.
0:25:30 > 0:25:30Thank you others are fighting.
0:25:30 > 0:25:30Thank you all others are fighting.
0:25:30 > 0:25:30Thank you all very others are fighting.
0:25:30 > 0:25:34Thank you all very much. others are fighting.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36That's it for Dateline London for this week.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39We're back at the same time a week from now.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42You can tweet us with your comments on the programme - @bbcshaunley.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Goodbye.