0:00:23 > 0:00:25Hello and a very warm welcome to Dateline London.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27I'm Carrie Gracie.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31This week we devote our attention to Russia.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34Russia abroad - after what the UK and its allies called the first
0:00:34 > 0:00:36offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since
0:00:36 > 0:00:42the Second World War.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44And Russia at home - as a presidential election
0:00:44 > 0:00:45is expected to deliver
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Vladimir Putin another six years in the Kremlin.
0:00:47 > 0:00:52My guests this week: the former Observer writer now political
0:00:52 > 0:00:53commentator Adam Raphael.
0:00:53 > 0:00:54Jef McAllister, the American
0:00:54 > 0:00:56broadcaster, formerly the Head of Time Magazine's London Bureau.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Italian journalist and film maker Annalisa Piras,
0:00:58 > 0:01:00and Russian political commentator, and former Kremlin advisor,
0:01:00 > 0:01:01Alexander Nekrassov.
0:01:01 > 0:01:11Welcome to you all.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Let's start by discussing how the government British is handling the
0:01:14 > 0:01:19events of the last few days, how do you think Theresa May is doing?I
0:01:19 > 0:01:24think she's doing pretty well, she was Home Secretary and this is an
0:01:24 > 0:01:28area she is familiar. It is almost pro forma what she has been doing,
0:01:28 > 0:01:33slung out a few Russian spies, you sound tough. She carried the House
0:01:33 > 0:01:36of Commons with her, I think she's done her political credibility quite
0:01:36 > 0:01:41a lot of good and on the other hand the opposition leader, Jeremy Corbyn
0:01:41 > 0:01:45has not done well. Did not get the mood of the house or the nation. She
0:01:45 > 0:01:52has come out well, but the question is can she then deliver on what she
0:01:52 > 0:01:56is saying she will be tough...We will come back to that in a moment
0:01:56 > 0:02:05but first let's get everyone's take? Well I don't agree with Adam simply
0:02:05 > 0:02:11because the gravity of what happened in my mind and in the mind of a lot
0:02:11 > 0:02:16of observers should have warranted a much tougher response. Expelling 23
0:02:16 > 0:02:20spies or diplomats is not on the same level of response to what looks
0:02:20 > 0:02:26like a deliberate attempt to humiliate Britain before the Russian
0:02:26 > 0:02:32elections.When you say deliberate attempt that suggests you believe
0:02:32 > 0:02:35the British government events that this was ordered by the Russian
0:02:35 > 0:02:40state and possibly by the president himself?Well, Britain, France,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44Germany and the United States have issued a joint statement saying they
0:02:44 > 0:02:49believe Russia is behind this attack, chemical attack, on British
0:02:49 > 0:02:54soil. If that is the case then expelling 23 diplomats does not look
0:02:54 > 0:03:01to me as an adequate response.The US has its own issues with Russia at
0:03:01 > 0:03:04the moment, but as you observe events in London how do you think
0:03:04 > 0:03:09Theresa May has handled it, how is Jeremy Corbyn handle that?I think
0:03:09 > 0:03:14if this is the last of it from Theresa May it is not enough in
0:03:14 > 0:03:18political terms, in global political terms. If there are going to be
0:03:18 > 0:03:23interesting uses of chemical agents in Russia by British agents or other
0:03:23 > 0:03:29kinds of complex sanctions perhaps on a Russian oligarch money or cyber
0:03:29 > 0:03:33attacks or other kinds of things which might be in the same league or
0:03:33 > 0:03:37doing something more serious then I think OK, let's see. It takes a
0:03:37 > 0:03:40while but those things in place and she cannot do it all in the first
0:03:40 > 0:03:45day. It's a traditional retaliation to expel diplomats. I think it is
0:03:45 > 0:03:50fine enough for oil, she's not a particularly strong Prime Minister.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55Slightly stronger looking but I think Jeremy Corbyn got it wrong and
0:03:55 > 0:04:00it's bad for him. It's almost a disqualification for a Prime
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Minister, potential Prime Minister to be that soft on someone who is
0:04:03 > 0:04:08attacking you. I think this will come back to haunt him.Alexander I
0:04:08 > 0:04:13suppose you are one step further back which is questioning the
0:04:13 > 0:04:17conviction of the British government that the Russian state is behind
0:04:17 > 0:04:20this?First of all I think Theresa May allowed herself to be dragged
0:04:20 > 0:04:25into this anti-Russian stands by the media because the media started its
0:04:25 > 0:04:30attack practically at once. She did not allow to give enough time for
0:04:30 > 0:04:36investigation to come up with some solid evidence. Highly likely was
0:04:36 > 0:04:39the phrase about Russian involvement, that does not sound
0:04:39 > 0:04:44convincing. I think our problem is that she is being basically put in
0:04:44 > 0:04:48an impossible position. There is nothing much she can do to Russia.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53If she attacks the oligarchs and the money the Russians will applaud the
0:04:53 > 0:04:57stop they don't like the oligarchs, they don't like the money being kept
0:04:57 > 0:05:05in London so that's not working. Whatever happens, whatever she says
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Russian gas will continue to heat British homes. Big companies will
0:05:09 > 0:05:13make billions in Russia, BP, Shell. Nothing will change in this sense.
0:05:13 > 0:05:20So does she really have anything she can throw at Vladimir Putin? I think
0:05:20 > 0:05:23the hype created before her statement people thought she was
0:05:23 > 0:05:26going to say something and she didn't and she couldn't. That's the
0:05:26 > 0:05:33problem I think Theresa May has.I think that is a fair point, one of
0:05:33 > 0:05:36the points of two previous British ambassadors is that you never get
0:05:36 > 0:05:43into a pressing match with the skunk and the fact is we are involved with
0:05:43 > 0:05:51a...Careful of the language.The options open to Britain, the really
0:05:51 > 0:05:54tough options would be really difficult for this country to do, so
0:05:54 > 0:06:00you have to go through these things, you have to try and get your allies
0:06:00 > 0:06:03behind you. We need without international corporation there is
0:06:03 > 0:06:07absolutely no way we can take the really tough actions that would stop
0:06:07 > 0:06:11Russia in its tracks. I personally would favour trying to get Fifa and
0:06:11 > 0:06:16get Britain out of the World Cup but you could not really do that without
0:06:16 > 0:06:20international corporation because Britain alone withdrawing would not
0:06:20 > 0:06:28be enough. We have got to show Putin and his thugs what the West means
0:06:28 > 0:06:33about this and to do that you need a coherent response, I am sceptical of
0:06:33 > 0:06:41that would come.Obviously Nato have said the UK got US, France and
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Germany bank that joint statement a couple of days back and Nato said
0:06:44 > 0:06:47that Russia is underestimating the resolve of our lives and their
0:06:47 > 0:06:55support for the UK, you disagree? Warm words are one thing. Actual
0:06:55 > 0:06:59actions, taking physical actions against the Russian state and its
0:06:59 > 0:07:02interests are quite another. For instance huge amounts of Russian
0:07:02 > 0:07:06debt are washed through the British London financial markets. We would
0:07:06 > 0:07:10never dare do anything about it because it would be so damaging to
0:07:10 > 0:07:14the economy which is why I sadly agree on the single point alone with
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Alexander that actually we are getting a lot of words but
0:07:17 > 0:07:25unfortunately...THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHERYou use the language Putin and
0:07:25 > 0:07:29his thugs, this is bad manners. You are a journalist and you should not
0:07:29 > 0:07:34talk like a street thug yourself so please forget this terminology.
0:07:34 > 0:07:41Terminology aside do you disagree? Also I think the British media, the
0:07:41 > 0:07:45language is unacceptable. Putin the thug and so on. It is unacceptable.
0:07:45 > 0:07:51In Russia no newspaper would dear Cole Theresa May this word because
0:07:51 > 0:07:55there is a certain level of communication and you don't step
0:07:55 > 0:08:01over it.The Russian media said it was a good thing to kill a traitor
0:08:01 > 0:08:06so that's also a difference.There are no words used, nobody in Russia
0:08:06 > 0:08:10is gloating that people were attacked and nearly dead or what
0:08:10 > 0:08:15ever happened to them, this is a very false assumption that Russians
0:08:15 > 0:08:20are cheering, chemical attack happened in Britain.I want to come
0:08:20 > 0:08:23back to Russian response in the second but let's stick with the
0:08:23 > 0:08:27Allies, you were saying Theresa May should have done more, been
0:08:27 > 0:08:31stronger, Adam is setting out the limitations on that, what do you
0:08:31 > 0:08:36think the British government could and should have done?Something that
0:08:36 > 0:08:40a lot of reports are kind of examining is how Britain could
0:08:40 > 0:08:46really hit Russians where it hurts. Money. There is a lot of Russian
0:08:46 > 0:08:50money, a lot of Russian investment in London. It would be a good
0:08:50 > 0:08:54thing...Adam says they would not be because it's too essential to the
0:08:54 > 0:09:00British economy.Yes but then there are moments in which, take Brexit,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03in which the national interest and the economy have come after other
0:09:03 > 0:09:10considerations. The moment there is an attack...I would have to say
0:09:10 > 0:09:13some people would disagree and that economic prospects under Brexit will
0:09:13 > 0:09:19be fine but go on.What I just wanted to point out was if Britain
0:09:19 > 0:09:25is under attack, a nerve agent used in British streets, is that more
0:09:25 > 0:09:30important are less important than economic interest?More for the UK
0:09:30 > 0:09:34to do but what about the Allies, that was mother point Adam was
0:09:34 > 0:09:38making, everyone in Europe needs to step up and support, everyone needs
0:09:38 > 0:09:44to step up and rally the wagons? There are views in the continent
0:09:44 > 0:09:49that actually what happened in Salisbury is the continuation of a
0:09:49 > 0:09:56strategy from Russia in dividing Britain from its allies. The
0:09:56 > 0:10:04reactions have been very lukewarm and this is for two reasons. One
0:10:04 > 0:10:08that Putin is on the rise in Europe, there is a lot of sympathy
0:10:08 > 0:10:12especially in the new insurgent political forces in Italy but not
0:10:12 > 0:10:16only, in Greece, Austria and other countries, a lot of sympathy for
0:10:16 > 0:10:23what Putin stands for.Explain that momentarily?It's a combination of
0:10:23 > 0:10:29the outcome of years in which Putin has been supporting also financially
0:10:29 > 0:10:36certain new political forces in Europe. In Italy the Northern
0:10:36 > 0:10:41league. The 5-star movement. In France Marine Le Pen. They have been
0:10:41 > 0:10:45supported by Russian money. They have also been supported in other
0:10:45 > 0:10:49ways. So that is coming to fruition when these political forces are
0:10:49 > 0:10:54coming closer to power. But there is also a problem with European
0:10:54 > 0:11:01independence on Russian trade and energy. There is little appetite in
0:11:01 > 0:11:05Europe for more sanctions but also in Germany, not only in those
0:11:05 > 0:11:10countries I mentioned.Coming to the US position on this, these are
0:11:10 > 0:11:14circumstances in which normally you would expect a US president to weigh
0:11:14 > 0:11:19in with a firmly ensconced Secretary of State and get all their ducks in
0:11:19 > 0:11:24a row and be firmly showing leadership on the European continent
0:11:24 > 0:11:29through Nato.In the same way that I think the rise of Putin in Europe is
0:11:29 > 0:11:33the result of a long-term and intelligent strategy of finding
0:11:33 > 0:11:38divisions and expanding them, Putin has done extremely well in his
0:11:38 > 0:11:42political choices in the United States. I don't say he's the only
0:11:42 > 0:11:47reason Donald Trump is president but he certainly contributed, he tried
0:11:47 > 0:11:51to contribute through the hacking of the e-mails, all of the Internet
0:11:51 > 0:11:56research agency subversion that Robert Miller has very carefully
0:11:56 > 0:12:01detailed. This is not made up, this is not a story. This is not
0:12:01 > 0:12:05necessarily just to get Trump elected but I think that was a
0:12:05 > 0:12:09jackpot, it was good to cause division and discord and he's got
0:12:09 > 0:12:11it. A president who is so embarrassed at the thought that he
0:12:11 > 0:12:16is going to be accused of having been gotten to the presidency
0:12:16 > 0:12:20through Putin's interventions that he denies Putin has anything to do
0:12:20 > 0:12:26with anything. He is continually downplaying evidence of Putin's
0:12:26 > 0:12:31malign activities both in the United States and abroad and he said a
0:12:31 > 0:12:35little but this week he is sticking by his ally in this funny Trump way
0:12:35 > 0:12:40where he veers around and find somebody to support week to week.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43But the long-term application of power which is what you need when
0:12:43 > 0:12:47you run a complex alliance is absence and it's having its effects
0:12:47 > 0:12:51because the Allies cannot turn to the United States. It means against
0:12:51 > 0:12:55the notion that I am strong and I'm going to win and do fine and make
0:12:55 > 0:12:58life tough for you you cannot stop it there is no war of ideas coming
0:12:58 > 0:13:02back from Washington or the West except that we are better in the
0:13:02 > 0:13:07long run and we will win. It actually, I am concerned.Alexander
0:13:07 > 0:13:15you are shaking your head.I do not agree with this. It is signalling
0:13:15 > 0:13:22that the CIA and other agencies are incompetent fools. The CIA has a
0:13:22 > 0:13:26budget of 44 billion per year which is more than, roughly the same as
0:13:26 > 0:13:35Russia. All you people forget one thing, West were listening and
0:13:35 > 0:13:40hacking into Russia, the NSA scandal, the Brits as well. To say
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Russia is running rings around all these huge intelligence services is
0:13:42 > 0:13:49such rubbish. You have to understand how the system works. These
0:13:49 > 0:13:51intelligence agencies in the West have been interfering in Russia for
0:13:51 > 0:13:57so long that we have seen them pull off a coup in two years, in Ukraine
0:13:57 > 0:14:04in 2014. That was financed and organised by the West. The
0:14:04 > 0:14:08legitimate government fell. So the Russians slept through it and did
0:14:08 > 0:14:14not do anything.So, obviously, Ukraine, Crimea, is it annexation,
0:14:14 > 0:14:18reunification, that's a whole big topic we don't have time for.I am
0:14:18 > 0:14:24talking about the intelligent services and the package that poor
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Germans, poor Brits, poor Americans are watching them all... Excuse me,
0:14:27 > 0:14:33let me finish my point. The Russians run rings around them.You do not
0:14:33 > 0:14:36think it is true?It is impossible because the same services in the
0:14:36 > 0:14:41West are doing exactly the same thing.Is there any part of these
0:14:41 > 0:14:44arguments that you recognise and resonate with you about the
0:14:44 > 0:14:50effectiveness of either the rise of Putin in Europe or...It is all made
0:14:50 > 0:14:54up because the war is going on between two sides and the Western
0:14:54 > 0:14:57intelligence agencies are interviewing now as we speak into
0:14:57 > 0:15:04the Russian lection trying to tip... That must be terrifying for Mr Putin
0:15:04 > 0:15:09with his 80% chance...I'm just explaining to you things don't work
0:15:09 > 0:15:13like that.You made your point very well but when we are talking born
0:15:13 > 0:15:18the trouble is and why you think we are being unfair to poor Russia is
0:15:18 > 0:15:29that Russia has form in this area. Georgi Markov was assassinated by
0:15:29 > 0:15:35Bulgarian financed by the KGB. We had Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 and
0:15:35 > 0:15:41we have now had this... Outrageous attack in Salisbury...Let's not go
0:15:41 > 0:15:46with history, it is not in your favour... You invaded Iraq and
0:15:46 > 0:15:54killed a million people... Libya you destroyed...Alexander! You have
0:15:54 > 0:16:00said it. History is over, we are going to talk about the future which
0:16:00 > 0:16:04is a Russian election. You mentioned it, let's go to it, one thing we
0:16:04 > 0:16:10know about all of this is that Putin's Russia is not going away,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Russia heads to the polls to choose a president and although there are a
0:16:13 > 0:16:19handful of other candidates, no one expects them to get many votes
0:16:19 > 0:16:24against Putin. So Alexander, first I would like to ask you on this
0:16:24 > 0:16:28election is the timing a coincident, nerve agent attack on an otherwise
0:16:28 > 0:16:32sleepy streets of a cathedral city and provincial England, and a
0:16:32 > 0:16:42Russian election upcoming?It damages Putin's and Russia's image.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46And with the World Cup coming up, it would be suicide for anyone in
0:16:46 > 0:16:50Moscow to think it would benefit us. Putin does not have a problem
0:16:50 > 0:16:55because he is popular. His opponents are not strong. So why would he
0:16:55 > 0:16:59suddenly think I need to get more votes for myself? It doesn't work
0:16:59 > 0:17:03like this.You think it's no coincidence but it is a troublemaker
0:17:03 > 0:17:07trying to undermine the President Putin before his re-election?It
0:17:07 > 0:17:12undermines Russia.Let's take that around the table, coincidence or
0:17:12 > 0:17:17not?I don't think it is a coincidence, it's possible it is a
0:17:17 > 0:17:22botched operation, there's lots of things, we cannot be sure how this
0:17:22 > 0:17:26happened. I think it's likely however that because there was the
0:17:26 > 0:17:32call for a ball caught...The opposition leader who is barred from
0:17:32 > 0:17:41standing...Yes, there is sensitivity about the results of the
0:17:41 > 0:17:44election, turnout matters, speculation that playing the West is
0:17:44 > 0:17:47against us card which is very powerful for Putin and has been for
0:17:47 > 0:17:52a long time and has deep historical roots in Russian attitudes towards
0:17:52 > 0:17:56the world, the belief that Nato is encircling, to do it any public way
0:17:56 > 0:18:01and in a way which divides Britain from Europe and makes Britain look
0:18:01 > 0:18:07weak, this seems to me to be like a trifecta of success for him.So far
0:18:07 > 0:18:12from undermining Putin it underlines that it is with his agenda.That's
0:18:12 > 0:18:19right, I am strong and I am winning. All of this, there has always been a
0:18:19 > 0:18:22winning card to say the rest of the world is attacking us and failing so
0:18:22 > 0:18:27whoever did it, they did it to help Putin's re-election and make him
0:18:27 > 0:18:33strong.So you think it takes more people to the ballot and takes more
0:18:33 > 0:18:37people to make their cross in his box?It strengthens the idea that
0:18:37 > 0:18:40Russia is at war with the West and the West is trying to take advantage
0:18:40 > 0:18:46of it, no doubt about that.It is nice to agree with Alexander for a
0:18:46 > 0:18:50change, I think the timing of this was bizarre, it would not help Putin
0:18:50 > 0:18:54and the question is to what extent was this activity within his
0:18:54 > 0:19:00control. I don't know. I think Russia is a fairly chaotic place. I
0:19:00 > 0:19:03think these agents are around. I think there are a lot of people who
0:19:03 > 0:19:09might want to take vengeance. Again, the same with the Alexander
0:19:09 > 0:19:14Litvinenko ace, I know I have to go back on form, it really is unclear
0:19:14 > 0:19:18who in Russia is masterminding it. It could be Putin but I agree with
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Alexander it is not in his interest at this time just before an election
0:19:21 > 0:19:26to stir this sort of thing up. And the other really interesting thing,
0:19:26 > 0:19:31if you want to kill someone there are many ways, this is not just
0:19:31 > 0:19:33killing, this is a public demonstration of how Russian
0:19:33 > 0:19:40traitors will be dealt with.Moving on to the rest of the election,
0:19:40 > 0:19:45Alexander, many other issues in play for Russia, the economy is in a mess
0:19:45 > 0:19:49you would agree, what is this election actually about?I think it
0:19:49 > 0:19:53is about national security because Russians are very worried that for
0:19:53 > 0:19:59example in the Ukraine for the first time ever Nato troops are present.
0:19:59 > 0:20:04Nato troops are on the Russian border. This has never been
0:20:04 > 0:20:09happening before, ever. So they are now a direct threat to Russia.
0:20:09 > 0:20:14Ukraine, with the loss of Ukraine from under Russian influence it's a
0:20:14 > 0:20:18terrifying disaster for the country because of eight, nine million
0:20:18 > 0:20:23Russians there and so on. Civil War on your border which can erupt into
0:20:23 > 0:20:28a bigger war. This is national security. I would say President
0:20:28 > 0:20:32Putin at the moment is a national security can do that because
0:20:32 > 0:20:36everything else is secondary now. They have to protect themselves from
0:20:36 > 0:20:40Nato which is moving in, there is a very aggressive policy of the West
0:20:40 > 0:20:46generally against Russia in Asia. China is very worried as well so
0:20:46 > 0:20:52they are operating with this.Is that national security argument
0:20:52 > 0:20:57trumping the stagnant economy, is it convenient or is it an accurate
0:20:57 > 0:21:04description of events?I think that is the card that Putin likes to
0:21:04 > 0:21:07play, national security.Is that because the Russian public are up
0:21:07 > 0:21:15for it?It works, 30% of Russians thought it was a great power in the
0:21:15 > 0:21:20year 2000, 70% think it is a great power now. Cry very successful.The
0:21:20 > 0:21:24annexation or
0:21:27 > 0:21:31they are potent political tour is not just in Russia but in America in
0:21:31 > 0:21:37some respects as well.You can see the Trump base, it's the appeal to
0:21:37 > 0:21:40animal instincts, the idea that things are going badly but we are
0:21:40 > 0:21:45showing we can be tough and we will be great again, somehow. There are
0:21:45 > 0:21:48serious economic issues but I don't think anyone is talking about them
0:21:48 > 0:21:55and the Russian system has no answer to them because it's this very funny
0:21:55 > 0:21:59state capitalism system with circles of influence and oligarchy. There is
0:21:59 > 0:22:05some kind of capitalism but the state institutions are weak, there
0:22:05 > 0:22:09will not be any reforms which can make much difference. I think there
0:22:09 > 0:22:13is good enough, oil prices are good enough, people need to look
0:22:13 > 0:22:18appalling. It is all people who think things are really bad, and one
0:22:18 > 0:22:21change, young people are more concerned, Moscow very different, a
0:22:21 > 0:22:24lot of desire for change but I think in the country people are willing to
0:22:24 > 0:22:31stick with it, it is a start as court election.I want to asked to
0:22:31 > 0:22:35think about what do you imagine President Putin wants to do with yet
0:22:35 > 0:22:41another term in office, another six years, what is his plan as far as
0:22:41 > 0:22:45you can guess?You have to accept that if you elect a KGB agent to
0:22:45 > 0:22:51become your president he is heavily influenced by his past. He is deeply
0:22:51 > 0:22:58suspicious of the West, he bitterly resents the break-up of the Russian
0:22:58 > 0:23:05Soviet Union and is feeding I think quite naturally, I think genuinely,
0:23:05 > 0:23:08on these feelings that Russia is a great country, it's not being
0:23:08 > 0:23:14treated as a equal in the world economy. The problem about that is
0:23:14 > 0:23:20he goes about it in absolutely the wrong way. This sort of act that he
0:23:20 > 0:23:23performed in Salisbury or his henchmen or his colleagues or
0:23:23 > 0:23:30whoever, it just betrays the thuggishness of Russian society.
0:23:30 > 0:23:36That is the word Alexander wanted to ban.It is the word I want to use...
0:23:36 > 0:23:43We have been there and we disagree. I don't understand, let's avoid this
0:23:43 > 0:23:48language... You say to provoke me and I should share it here quietly?
0:23:48 > 0:23:55You made your point, you did not sit there quietly. What you think the is
0:23:55 > 0:24:00for Putin?His agenda is clear, in the past 18 years he has been in
0:24:00 > 0:24:05power. He wants to restore the greatness of the former Soviet
0:24:05 > 0:24:12empire, the former Russian influence in the world and he's winning. His
0:24:12 > 0:24:18idea, they call it political technology, is proving the winning
0:24:18 > 0:24:22idea because it's winning on all the kind of theatres in which he has
0:24:22 > 0:24:27pushed and pushed and he keeps pushing. Nobody seems able really to
0:24:27 > 0:24:33do anything about it. So I think that is what he wants to do,
0:24:33 > 0:24:37especially in the former satellite countries of the Soviet Union. He
0:24:37 > 0:24:45wants to restore a firm grip. Alexander, what do you think that
0:24:45 > 0:24:52will mean for people outside Russia, Putin's agenda. It seems there is a
0:24:52 > 0:24:55degree of unanimity about what that agenda is, what do you think it will
0:24:55 > 0:25:00mean for people outside Russia? First of all I find it absolutely
0:25:00 > 0:25:05and believable that Russia is supposedly fixing a grip on its
0:25:05 > 0:25:09neighbours when it lost influence in every neighbouring country, every
0:25:09 > 0:25:14neighbouring country had lost to the influence of.Alexander, we have got
0:25:14 > 0:25:18literally less than two minutes so I just wanted to say what you think
0:25:18 > 0:25:22another six years of Putin will mean for people outside Russia?I think
0:25:22 > 0:25:26it will be a tough six years for Russia, it will be very tough for
0:25:26 > 0:25:30Putin to deal with the West. The West is irresponsible. What they are
0:25:30 > 0:25:34doing is pushing the world to conflict. I find it absolutely
0:25:34 > 0:25:40amazing.Do you worry about the risk of conflict?Yes but I don't think
0:25:40 > 0:25:44it's because of the West are looking for it. The West cannot figure out
0:25:44 > 0:25:50what it's looking for right now. You can make everything look like
0:25:50 > 0:25:54encirclement, if Ukrainians in a Democratic vote wanted to join the
0:25:54 > 0:25:57European Union I don't think Mr Putin would think it's a great idea
0:25:57 > 0:26:01and we would have a war.So if you had to sum up in one word the coming
0:26:01 > 0:26:06six years of Putin and the impact on the rest of Europe, what would you
0:26:06 > 0:26:11say?If he is able to continue along the path that he has which has been
0:26:11 > 0:26:17very subtle, clever and crafty, I think the West's fundamental
0:26:17 > 0:26:21institutions are at risk in so far even the American presidency has
0:26:21 > 0:26:30been subverted.One word?We need to take it seriously and reform the
0:26:30 > 0:26:35world security situations. The fact that China and Russia now in the UN
0:26:35 > 0:26:39Security Council and they don't seem to be forces for the...We have to
0:26:39 > 0:26:42leave it there. Thank you all so much for joining us, great
0:26:42 > 0:26:44discussion.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47That's it for Dateline London for this week -
0:26:47 > 0:26:49we're back next week at the same time.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51You can of course comment on the programme on Twitter @BBCCarrie.
0:26:51 > 0:26:53Goodbye.