0:00:01 > 0:00:08What do Charles de Gaulle and Edwina Hart have in common, and why
0:00:08 > 0:00:18is the pop supremo Pete Waterman taking up with Cheryl Gillan? This
0:00:18 > 0:00:20
0:00:20 > 0:00:25Good evening. You remember Pete Waterman, the 1980s chart-topping
0:00:25 > 0:00:31songwriter and record producer. He's a big fan of high-speed rail.
0:00:31 > 0:00:37We have built railways, and we have built roads on that green, pleasant
0:00:37 > 0:00:44land for over 50 years. We can't turn the clock back. But the Welsh
0:00:44 > 0:00:54Home Secretary doesn't want it in her constituency. Some of Wales's
0:00:54 > 0:01:00
0:01:00 > 0:01:07Academics and business leaders have told this programme the whole
0:01:07 > 0:01:12sector could be damaged unless they can charge higher fees.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Academics have been saying for a decade there is a serious
0:01:15 > 0:01:20escalating funding gam between Welsh and English universities.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25They argument it makes it more difficult for institutions to
0:01:25 > 0:01:31compete on the world stage. The Welsh and Irish Learning Society
0:01:31 > 0:01:36was established last year. Their analysis of the funding figures for
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Welsh universities compared to their counterparts makes for stark
0:01:40 > 0:01:44reading. They say there was a funding gap of �361 million between
0:01:44 > 0:01:50English and Welsh institutions. The comparison is worse when looking at
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Wales and Scotland where the gap was over �1 billion in the same
0:01:53 > 0:01:57period. A professor has twice conducted reviews into university
0:01:57 > 0:02:03funding on behalf of Welsh Ministers. The worst case scenario
0:02:03 > 0:02:09means we don't have the capacity to attract really ace researchers and
0:02:09 > 0:02:14teachers to our universities or that people get the impression -
0:02:14 > 0:02:19that's bad enough we can't pay the kind of salaries as elwhere.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23That'll stop people coming. We have to be careful not to make it worse
0:02:23 > 0:02:26so we don't seem like a cheap place to go to have a degree.Ation
0:02:26 > 0:02:32fees were introduced get more money into universities. They have
0:02:32 > 0:02:37increased to pint Welsh students pay around �3,400 a year. With fees
0:02:37 > 0:02:41in England about to rise to �9,000 a year, the Welsh universities say
0:02:41 > 0:02:48they'll make up the difference and some want to increase their fees to
0:02:48 > 0:02:54the same amount. Five out of ten university have submitted proposals
0:02:54 > 0:03:01that would see them charge �9,000. To do that they had to prove they
0:03:01 > 0:03:07would provide a better experience. Three universities want to charge
0:03:07 > 0:03:10�9,000. The other five universities haven't made public their plans.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13The �9,000 figure was the upper limit the English Government wanted
0:03:13 > 0:03:17to allow universities to charge, and they would have to give some
0:03:17 > 0:03:21money back to students, the expectation really that nobody
0:03:21 > 0:03:27would want go up to that much. We now know virtually everybody wants
0:03:27 > 0:03:31to go to �9,000 because there is a psychology here. Who is going to
0:03:31 > 0:03:35charge less than somebody Wells the danger is it a cheaper degree?
0:03:35 > 0:03:39wouldn't a university want to charge the maximum it can given the
0:03:39 > 0:03:44understood funding and the desire to do its best by its students and
0:03:44 > 0:03:49staff. All the proposals were rejected by HEFCU. The institutions
0:03:49 > 0:03:53were told to improve their plans. The universities' plans for that
0:03:53 > 0:03:56much in tuition fees were sent back to the drawing board. Leighton
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Andrews said this showed Wales was taking a robust approach to the
0:03:59 > 0:04:03issue. Unless an agreement was reached, the universities wouldn't
0:04:03 > 0:04:07be allowed to charge anymore than �4,000. We need universities in
0:04:07 > 0:04:12Wales that are going to have the capacity to invest in excellence,
0:04:12 > 0:04:16widening access and working with business. I think at a time when
0:04:16 > 0:04:20other universities across the UK are charging �9,000 fees and core
0:04:20 > 0:04:26funding from Government is disappearing, any Welsh institution
0:04:26 > 0:04:30which can't go over �4,000 is going to struggle. Some of the more
0:04:30 > 0:04:35expensive courses, the at once Government is particularly keen we
0:04:35 > 0:04:38should teach, the science courses, would be at risk. Critics argue the
0:04:38 > 0:04:44Welsh Government budgeted for tuition fees being an average of
0:04:44 > 0:04:48�7,000, so there will be a black hole in their spending plans if
0:04:48 > 0:04:53they're actually �9,000 per student. All the universities that have
0:04:53 > 0:04:57responded so far said they'd like to charge �9,000 with the odd
0:04:57 > 0:05:00course being �8,200. That is enormous. We may have a funding gap.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04This is something the Government would have to address over the next
0:05:04 > 0:05:11two to three years. It's not a problem next year but in two, three
0:05:11 > 0:05:21years' time, the if there is not something done there could be a gap
0:05:21 > 0:05:27
0:05:27 > 0:05:32in the pay. They say it's affordable. Academics say it's not.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34The reality is that the cost of higher education is going up. The
0:05:35 > 0:05:40taxpayers' contribution is going down. At the end of the day, it's
0:05:40 > 0:05:44going to be very difficult to maintain the fee level at �3,400.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Some are concerned there is public brinksmanship between universities
0:05:48 > 0:05:51and Ministers and the funding body on the other could in itself be
0:05:51 > 0:05:53damaging. There is an element, no doubt, of public megaphone coming
0:05:54 > 0:05:57into this. The Welsh Minister will have to answer for that himself,
0:05:57 > 0:06:01but the process is something I support. Where they stand in the
0:06:01 > 0:06:04right way - that is up to Leighton Andrews. Other universities may not
0:06:04 > 0:06:08get the funding they like, but they still get a huge amount of public
0:06:08 > 0:06:11spending. It's the duty of the Welsh Government to make sure it's
0:06:11 > 0:06:16being spent wisely. It will be clear what impact that has on Welsh
0:06:16 > 0:06:19higher education next month when the fee level is decided.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Well, let's - that was Brian reporting. Let's hear from the
0:06:24 > 0:06:26Education Minister Leighton Andrews. Welcome to Dragon's Eye. Do you
0:06:26 > 0:06:31accept that the economic situation in which the universities find
0:06:31 > 0:06:35themselves mean that they have to charge higher fees in order to stay
0:06:35 > 0:06:38competitive? They have to persuade the Higher Education Funding
0:06:38 > 0:06:43Council they're responding to the guidance we put in place which said
0:06:43 > 0:06:47if they want to charge fees of �9,000, then they have to invest in
0:06:47 > 0:06:50attracting students from a wider variety of backgrounds and they
0:06:50 > 0:06:54have to invest in improving the student experience. They have
0:06:54 > 0:06:57clearly failed to far to persuade the council they're able to do that.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Is the fact all ten universities had their initial plans rejected
0:07:01 > 0:07:04illustrative of confusion behind the scenes? Is it clear to them
0:07:04 > 0:07:10what they have to do in order to meet these guidelines that have
0:07:10 > 0:07:14been issued? It's very clear because the Assembly debated the
0:07:14 > 0:07:19regulations back in March and voted them through, and I issued guidance
0:07:19 > 0:07:22on the back of those regulation which was sent to the Higher
0:07:22 > 0:07:26Education Funding Council. They discussed that with all the
0:07:26 > 0:07:30universities in Wales. It's not me that rejected the fees plans. It's
0:07:30 > 0:07:34that body. A 100% rejection rate, though, is surely an indication of
0:07:34 > 0:07:39lack of clarity behind the scene, isn't it? A 100% rejection rate
0:07:39 > 0:07:43I think it's an indication that the universitys have clearly not done
0:07:43 > 0:07:47enough to persuade the council they're investing enough in the
0:07:47 > 0:07:54student experience or have done enough to widen access in
0:07:54 > 0:07:57participation into hire education. I think it's a shame when the
0:07:57 > 0:08:03National Union of Students of Wales that you just broadcast - they
0:08:03 > 0:08:13would have been saying strongly twhaimt to see clufrts are planning
0:08:13 > 0:08:13
0:08:14 > 0:08:19to -- universities who are planning to deliver this... They say after
0:08:19 > 0:08:26virtually a decade of underfunding they're potentially in big trouble
0:08:26 > 0:08:29unless they get permission to charge this. We have had a very
0:08:29 > 0:08:32generous support system in place for students more generous than
0:08:32 > 0:08:36elsewhere. That's been perhaps where the balance of our funding
0:08:36 > 0:08:40has gone. If you add together the student finance we put into place
0:08:40 > 0:08:45and the hire education funding it comes out on a match with England.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49I think the reality of life - this is coming clear now in figures I
0:08:49 > 0:08:53have received from the council is Welsh universities have been very
0:08:53 > 0:08:56Conservative in their borrowing compared to universities in England.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00That means they have not been making a sufficient investment in
0:09:01 > 0:09:04the student experience. They are underborrowed, and maybe that at a
0:09:04 > 0:09:07time when we have been through an economic crisis has been good knew,
0:09:08 > 0:09:13but they need now to look much more seriously about their investment
0:09:13 > 0:09:16plans for the future and whether they should be using their money -
0:09:16 > 0:09:22their assets better to provide more investment in the student
0:09:22 > 0:09:26experience. When we hear from the likes of Teresa Reece, somebody who
0:09:26 > 0:09:31has been invited by Labour-led Governments to look into tuition
0:09:31 > 0:09:34fees - she's a woman who knows what she's talking about. I take her
0:09:35 > 0:09:39views seriously indeed, but when I look at new figures which have been
0:09:39 > 0:09:43given to me by the Higher Education Funding Council, we see the
0:09:43 > 0:09:49universities have been leveraging their assets to invest more in the
0:09:49 > 0:09:51student experience and to invest in higher salaries and to attract more
0:09:51 > 0:09:55star lecturers. Let's look at affordability. That's the other
0:09:55 > 0:09:58issue which concerns have been raised, whether your policy will be
0:09:58 > 0:10:04affordable in the long run. Aim right in thinking you modelled on
0:10:04 > 0:10:06the basis of around about �7,000? Both �7,000 and �9,000. I have
0:10:06 > 0:10:09discussed this on this programme with you and on other BBC
0:10:09 > 0:10:14programmes with your colleagues over recent months. We're confident
0:10:14 > 0:10:19of the figures that we have set out up until 2016-17. This is not a
0:10:19 > 0:10:22cheap option, of course, investing in the support we're providing for
0:10:22 > 0:10:25students. It will cost us money, but we have made a commitment, and
0:10:25 > 0:10:30the Labour Party made a commitment in its manifesto to fund this for
0:10:30 > 0:10:33the lifetime of this Assembly. if some higher - if some
0:10:33 > 0:10:36universities or, indeed, all universities ultimately get
0:10:36 > 0:10:39permission to charge the maximum amount, there is absolutely no
0:10:39 > 0:10:42question of any hole in the affordability of that in terms of
0:10:42 > 0:10:46the plans you have made? We have been through the detail of this
0:10:46 > 0:10:50internally in the Assembly Government. We have discussed it
0:10:50 > 0:10:54with the council. We're confident there are of course uncertaintys in
0:10:54 > 0:10:58all of this. We can't predict, more can the Government in the UK
0:10:58 > 0:11:03predict, what is going to happen to demand for university places if
0:11:03 > 0:11:06fees go to �9,000 nor can we predict with absolute certainty the
0:11:06 > 0:11:12cross-border flow of students between Wales and England. Throws
0:11:12 > 0:11:18difficult things to calculate, but we have put in place a policy we'll
0:11:18 > 0:11:24deliver. If there are �9,000 permission granted, will you end up
0:11:24 > 0:11:31taking more money out of the teaching budget? Is that how it
0:11:31 > 0:11:35will work We'll balance the budget. Look at what's happening across the
0:11:35 > 0:11:38border - cuts of 80% in the teaching grant, in universities in
0:11:39 > 0:11:41England being imposed by the Department for Business, Innovation
0:11:41 > 0:11:45and Science. I think we're continuing to invest in higher
0:11:45 > 0:11:51education. We're not the people who are refusing to invest in future,
0:11:51 > 0:11:54in the arts and humanities, as they are in England. It's a good deal we
0:11:54 > 0:11:59have created both for universities and students. I can't understand
0:11:59 > 0:12:04for the life of me why you didn't opt for the Scottish model, being
0:12:04 > 0:12:06that they help out - Scottish domiciled students who study at
0:12:06 > 0:12:11institutions in Scotland because you've already admitted yourself
0:12:11 > 0:12:14that there are uncertainties over cross-border flows and so on, and
0:12:14 > 0:12:18the Welsh Government faces the prospect of subsidising the English
0:12:18 > 0:12:21hire education sector if a lot of Welsh students decide to go across
0:12:21 > 0:12:25the border. That seems strange. You've got brain drain concerns,
0:12:25 > 0:12:30haven't you, if a lot of students decide to do that. This is a policy
0:12:30 > 0:12:33that was supported by the One Wales Government of Labour and Plaid
0:12:33 > 0:12:37Cymru. I think the Liberal Democrats also support policy. The
0:12:37 > 0:12:40only political party that doesn't want too support students are the
0:12:41 > 0:12:43Welsh Conservatives. They'd make Welsh students pay the full rate of
0:12:43 > 0:12:47fee wherever they study in the United Kingdom. I happen to think
0:12:47 > 0:12:50this is a policy that is good deal for Welsh universities and students.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53The Scottish model reduced a little bit some of the uncertainties you
0:12:53 > 0:12:57were talking about in terms of the modelling of who decides to do what
0:12:57 > 0:13:00and go where, wouldn't it? We have developed our own policy in Wales
0:13:00 > 0:13:04we think works for Wales. As I say, that was supported by both parties
0:13:04 > 0:13:08in the One Wales Government and I think the Welsh Liberal Democrats
0:13:08 > 0:13:10welcomed it as well - it's the Welsh Conservatives that forced
0:13:10 > 0:13:15Welsh students wherever they studied to pay the full fees.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17you very much for joining us. you. Now, it's an issue that Cheryl
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Gillan, the Secretary of State for Wales, feels so strongly about, she
0:13:21 > 0:13:25says she's ready to leave the Cabinet and resign the party in
0:13:25 > 0:13:29Westminster. UK Government plans for a high-speed rail link through
0:13:29 > 0:13:39her constituency in Buckinghamshire have put Conservatives at odds with
0:13:39 > 0:13:46
0:13:46 > 0:13:50A green and pleasant land, less than 30 miles from London.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55Admission features in the Domesday Book and is proud of its history --
0:13:55 > 0:13:58Amersham features. It is worried about its future. I think the route
0:13:58 > 0:14:02passes through an area on outstanding national beauty. If it
0:14:02 > 0:14:06goes ahead on this route in this fashion, and I am asked to vote in
0:14:06 > 0:14:10Parliament on it, I could not and the Prime Minister knows that as do
0:14:10 > 0:14:14my colleagues and I have always behaved in an open fashion. I have
0:14:14 > 0:14:17not changed my position, it is the same as it was in the last Labour -
0:14:17 > 0:14:21- and the last Labour government announced it. This is what the fuss
0:14:21 > 0:14:28is about. A new rail route with trains travelling at more than 200
0:14:28 > 0:14:37miles per hour between London and Birmingham. The high-speed to put
0:14:37 > 0:14:43it has put some ministers at odds with their government. This
0:14:43 > 0:14:48restaurant, and anger local party has seen contributions to Tory HQ,
0:14:48 > 0:14:54scout. There is strong support for Cheryl Gillan's stance. We are
0:14:54 > 0:14:58expect her to represent our views to the best of her ability. Clearly
0:14:59 > 0:15:02the decision about her position in the party is one for her. That is
0:15:02 > 0:15:08something we would wish to discuss with them but it is not for me to
0:15:08 > 0:15:13say when that comes out today. But... Would you be happy were she
0:15:13 > 0:15:20to remain within the Government that is putting this through her
0:15:20 > 0:15:25constituency? That would be a topic for another day, David. This
0:15:25 > 0:15:29memorial commemorates the Amersham Masters, a group of local men and
0:15:29 > 0:15:34women who were burnt at the stake for their religious beliefs. 600
0:15:34 > 0:15:38years later, sacrifices are made in rather different ways. There is no
0:15:38 > 0:15:43doubt that it would be no small loss for an ambitious politician to
0:15:43 > 0:15:46give up her seat at the top table of the UK Government over a
0:15:46 > 0:15:52constituency issue. The consolation for show of Gillan, perhaps even
0:15:52 > 0:15:55the driving force, is that many of her constituents appear to agree
0:15:55 > 0:15:59with their local MP. The MP has been really, really good and we
0:15:59 > 0:16:04have been going to the meetings, they have been positive so yes,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07hopefully we will win. She has taken a strong stance on it and she
0:16:07 > 0:16:12obviously feels very passionate about it if she is prepared to
0:16:12 > 0:16:15resign over it. It is a big sacrifice but she represents the
0:16:15 > 0:16:25voters from around here and the voters around here would like her
0:16:25 > 0:16:26
0:16:26 > 0:16:31Supporters of High Speed Two, including the Prime Minister, said
0:16:31 > 0:16:37it would narrow the North-south divide. The campaign in Westminster,
0:16:37 > 0:16:45including record producer and rail enthusiast who says it is essential.
0:16:45 > 0:16:53No choice. No choice, we can't put it on Sky Box. God did not give us
0:16:53 > 0:16:57skyhook, he gave us terra firma. We have built railways on the green
0:16:57 > 0:17:01land forever, we are not Luddites, we cannot be forced up inside the
0:17:01 > 0:17:06Commons, the issue for Cheryl Gillan's threat to resign was
0:17:06 > 0:17:10raised with the Prime Minister. Secretary of State for Wales has
0:17:10 > 0:17:14said that she is prepared to be sacked because of her opposition to
0:17:14 > 0:17:23high-speed rail. Will the Prime Minister take her up on the kind of
0:17:23 > 0:17:27the? -- the kind offer. A prefer to
0:17:27 > 0:17:32focus on the fact that as one year in Welsh Secretary, she has to give
0:17:32 > 0:17:36something that 13 years of your will sector has not achieved much
0:17:36 > 0:17:40of the electrification of the line between Cardiff and Paddington.
0:17:40 > 0:17:45some experts say the group would benefit the economy in North and
0:17:45 > 0:17:50Mid Wales. This line in its ultimate position where it is
0:17:50 > 0:17:56intended to go to Manchester, it will connect things to the line
0:17:56 > 0:18:00from all Wales. It is that wine, electrified by that time -- North
0:18:00 > 0:18:05Wales, that will give speedy movement into North Wales from
0:18:05 > 0:18:10inward investors. The same thing applies to mid-Wales via Birmingham
0:18:10 > 0:18:14were fast trains again to Birmingham will reduce train times
0:18:14 > 0:18:17to places like Aberystwyth. That is yet to commit the Secretary of
0:18:17 > 0:18:22State. Never in the two years that this product has been discussed as
0:18:22 > 0:18:29I have or had any submission of the mass benefits to Wales. That is not
0:18:29 > 0:18:32to say it may have more benefits. parliamentary vote on the route may
0:18:32 > 0:18:36still be years away but a government decision is expected
0:18:36 > 0:18:39before Christmas. It is then that Cheryl Gillan may have to decide
0:18:40 > 0:18:44between her Cabinet job and because to do its.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48The David Cornock reporting. The business Minister Edwina Hart is
0:18:48 > 0:18:52not one to mince her words but her succinct rejection of an invitation
0:18:52 > 0:18:55to a committee of Welsh MPs has raised eyebrows in Westminster and
0:18:55 > 0:18:59in Cardiff Bay as well. Politics probably has not in a
0:18:59 > 0:19:09refusal as blunt as this one since General Charles de Gaulle's find
0:19:09 > 0:19:16
0:19:16 > 0:19:26this blackballing attempt of what There was not even a yours
0:19:26 > 0:19:26
0:19:27 > 0:19:30I was astonished, really. Why wouldn't any politician want to go
0:19:30 > 0:19:33and explain their case, why wouldn't any politician want to go
0:19:33 > 0:19:37on and say this is what the Government is doing wrong. This is
0:19:37 > 0:19:41an opportunity to say what the coalition-led government which she
0:19:41 > 0:19:47is not supporting, can do better for Wales. The Minister was
0:19:47 > 0:19:51unrepentant when challenged about it. The economy is my
0:19:51 > 0:19:55responsibility here in Wales and that it am capable in doing that.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00Politics is often about the art of saying no. Edwina Hart, like
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Charles de Gaulle, prefers it without the sugar coating.
0:20:04 > 0:20:09The Western Mail's political editor David Williamson joins us in
0:20:09 > 0:20:13Westminster and former Plaid Cymru Assembly Member Helen Mary Jones
0:20:13 > 0:20:17joins me in the studio. What is the usual etiquette, David, when a
0:20:17 > 0:20:21Minister declined an invitation to give evidence to a committee?
0:20:21 > 0:20:26think a committee would normally expect to have some detailed
0:20:27 > 0:20:32explanation, perhaps a suggestion of other dates and such things. It
0:20:32 > 0:20:38is the a to play in this which has made this letter so explosive -- it
0:20:38 > 0:20:45is the plane at way in which this letter. She has had a famously
0:20:45 > 0:20:53spiky relationship with Ben Bradshaw and she did not see eye to
0:20:53 > 0:20:57eye them. People will not be surprised by the prospect mobbing
0:20:57 > 0:21:03her top priority. Was she just downright rude? You could argue
0:21:03 > 0:21:07that members of the members of the committee were not expecting her to
0:21:07 > 0:21:12come. I am convinced that we have asked ministers from Westminster to
0:21:12 > 0:21:15come down and talk to us and it is very unusual but they tend to send
0:21:15 > 0:21:21officials. With this clear separation of powers, we have
0:21:21 > 0:21:26ministers going down the M4 motorway like Yo Yos. They don't do
0:21:26 > 0:21:34that anymore and that it we need a protocol which works both ways
0:21:34 > 0:21:37whereby if there are cross-border issues which are to be discussed,
0:21:37 > 0:21:42then Westminster ministers will come to talk to committees in the
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Assembly but there is a point about who our ministers answerable to,
0:21:45 > 0:21:50they are not answerable to Westminster MPs, they are
0:21:50 > 0:21:54answerable to be scrutinised by the AMs that we elect. At suppose,
0:21:54 > 0:22:04David, she was under no Higher Education Funding Council
0:22:04 > 0:22:06
0:22:06 > 0:22:11obligation to attend. -- she was under no obligation to attend.
0:22:11 > 0:22:17is possible. The committee does have another option and that would
0:22:17 > 0:22:20be to subpoena her and that would be a spectacular stage in the
0:22:20 > 0:22:28evolution between the Assembly and Parliament. I do not think that as
0:22:28 > 0:22:37a possibility, but there is an interesting question, in that what
0:22:37 > 0:22:43does the Welsh Select Committee exist to do? The committee members
0:22:43 > 0:22:46look at bodies like UKTI, a body responsible for encouraging
0:22:46 > 0:22:51international investment into the UK and trade with other countries
0:22:51 > 0:22:56and they say if this is not an issue which goes beyond simple
0:22:56 > 0:23:03devolution, what is? Helen Mary Jones, the political and it is
0:23:03 > 0:23:07interesting in this been that there is surely a danger in this
0:23:07 > 0:23:11boomeranging. She could be sending a message to the elected
0:23:11 > 0:23:15representatives of the Welsh people? To whom she is not
0:23:15 > 0:23:21answerable. But even though she did not go necessarily, it was the way
0:23:21 > 0:23:24she did say she was not going. latter have been bandied around so
0:23:24 > 0:23:28we would like to see other letters. I have worked closely with Edwina
0:23:28 > 0:23:32Hart both in opposition and when we were working together in government
0:23:32 > 0:23:36I have to say that discourteous is not the word that would come to
0:23:36 > 0:23:39mind at all. She is very direct and likes things to be done properly.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43She likes rules and regulations to be applied and she likes to know
0:23:43 > 0:23:46what they are but I do not think she is discourteous. I do not think
0:23:46 > 0:23:50this would have been political. It may have been a simple question
0:23:50 > 0:23:54that she is not available but even if she is, there is the question of
0:23:54 > 0:23:58who she is answerable to. I think the Welsh Affairs Select Committee
0:23:58 > 0:24:01has got a great job, I would like to see them scrutinised the effects
0:24:01 > 0:24:09of housing benefit changes. Talking about the thousands of Welsh women
0:24:09 > 0:24:13who are losing pension rise. Westminster putting their noses
0:24:13 > 0:24:19into matters that are frankly double. Will this go anywhere?
0:24:19 > 0:24:24think it will leave quite a taste in the mouth we have seen a real
0:24:24 > 0:24:29tension building up, especially this week, between the two ends of
0:24:29 > 0:24:34the M4 motorway. We have the First Minister coming to London and
0:24:34 > 0:24:38making a very passionate case for white energy policy should in part
0:24:38 > 0:24:44be devolved to the Assembly and then being slapped down within
0:24:44 > 0:24:50hours in a very public way. This is just one more event in a succession
0:24:50 > 0:24:54which some people are saying is creating a negative environment for
0:24:54 > 0:24:58people to look at will put on think this is where decision-makers talk
0:24:58 > 0:25:01to each other in a positive and help the way? I think that is an
0:25:01 > 0:25:05important point and the way we deal with that is by having proper
0:25:05 > 0:25:13written protocols in place and then perhaps we can develop a real
0:25:13 > 0:25:17If you would like to share your thoughts with that or anything we
0:25:17 > 0:25:20have discussed, please do so. Senders and e-mail on the address
0:25:20 > 0:25:25below. Normally that address appears at the end of the programme
0:25:25 > 0:25:31but I am mentioning it now to give our political editor Betsan Powys
0:25:31 > 0:25:38chance to leap into the chair next to me. She only had 20 seconds but
0:25:38 > 0:25:42she is as nimble as a mountain goat! Well done. Catch your breath!
0:25:42 > 0:25:46You have something to tell us on the suspended Lib Dem AMs, tell us
0:25:46 > 0:25:50of their situation. They were barred from the Assembly because it
0:25:50 > 0:25:54was found they were members of public bodies, that AMs may not be
0:25:54 > 0:25:56a member of so they are disqualified, they are no longer
0:25:56 > 0:26:04Assembly Members. A complaint was made to the police that they had
0:26:04 > 0:26:07broken electoral law, that was by the MEP for UKIP. John Dixon and
0:26:07 > 0:26:12other drivers have been told that there is no case to answer, they
0:26:12 > 0:26:19will not take things any further. A fairly high threshold would have to
0:26:19 > 0:26:22be proved. It is a higher threshold than Assembly Members will
0:26:22 > 0:26:26certainly face when they come in to decide on the future. What happens
0:26:26 > 0:26:30now in terms of resolving this? They need a majority over 30 AMs to
0:26:30 > 0:26:33support them and bring them back in and overturn the disqualification.
0:26:33 > 0:26:40I have talked to Plaid Cymru, they are probably the most sympathetic
0:26:40 > 0:26:49group. Not all of them certainly. I put the Conservatives in the middle,
0:26:49 > 0:26:58mostly answer but that it backed by no means all. That means Labour.
0:26:58 > 0:27:03One of the linkages was out of date apparently answered the Labour am
0:27:03 > 0:27:08was apparently misled. Clearly some of them do not believe in and I
0:27:08 > 0:27:12think it is a handy excuse and that is why one commissioner says in his
0:27:12 > 0:27:17report, he will be busy writing now, he says of the tone will be crucial
0:27:17 > 0:27:21for these two. Do we have an idea of the timetable of that report?
0:27:21 > 0:27:26final decision could be made on Wednesday. It could be put off by a
0:27:26 > 0:27:30week but it will not be much longer. At least the CPS have come back
0:27:30 > 0:27:34before the end of term. The concern was that they would not. They can
0:27:34 > 0:27:38see the end of the tunnel but I am not convinced that there is a light
0:27:38 > 0:27:44at the end of the tunnel for them. If the answer is no, what happens?
0:27:45 > 0:27:50They are list members so the next on the list would pop up, for
0:27:50 > 0:27:54example in Cardiff Bay. The Lib Dem group would be the same size but
0:27:54 > 0:27:57might not be the members that the leadership might want. It is a
0:27:58 > 0:28:03difficult one, this, in terms of the amount of time it takes to
0:28:03 > 0:28:08resolve. We are talking about voters remaining unrepresented.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11are but it could turn the other way round, you might come to the
0:28:11 > 0:28:16conclusion that they would be disqualified and then the next day
0:28:16 > 0:28:20the CPS would come back and say there is no case to answer. It is a
0:28:20 > 0:28:23relief that at least the information is there and the
0:28:23 > 0:28:29Assembly Members, whether sympathetic or not, can have the