:00:06. > :00:11.A fire storm engulfing the press, the police and politicians. Tonight,
:00:11. > :00:21.the Welsh people caught up in the hacking scandal. This is Dragon's
:00:21. > :00:29.
:00:29. > :00:35.Good evening. After similar -- simmering away on the back burner,
:00:35. > :00:43.the phone-hacking scandal has now blown away any murk at around the
:00:43. > :00:48.police, MPs and newspapers. News Corporation it was asked to drop
:00:48. > :00:52.its bid for BSkyB. And it did. The police investigation continues and
:00:52. > :01:02.many potential victims wait to find out whether their privacy was
:01:02. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.After years of managing to keep a lid of sorts on the phone-hacking
:01:12. > :01:18.allegations, in the last week, everything boiled over. It was to
:01:18. > :01:21.see one of the world's biggest news organisations shaken to its very
:01:21. > :01:27.foundation, threatening its business and reputation around the
:01:27. > :01:31.world. Stories about phones being hacked have been dropping out for
:01:31. > :01:35.years. Some have taken legal action against News International and have
:01:35. > :01:40.been paid handsomely by the corporation. But it was when it was
:01:40. > :01:44.found that the family's and victims of crime, those who had been caught
:01:44. > :01:54.up in terrorist attacks and the families of British troops killed
:01:54. > :01:56.
:01:56. > :02:00.in action had been hacked that the corporation lost control. This
:02:00. > :02:06.lady's son was serving in Afghanistan. She was angry when she
:02:06. > :02:11.heard that the phones off the families of men and women serving
:02:11. > :02:15.in Afghanistan and may have been hacked boss Bob it is at the worst
:02:15. > :02:22.possible time in their life. They are going to hear an awful lot of
:02:22. > :02:28.grief. A lot of bewilderment. A lot of not knowing what to do next or
:02:28. > :02:33.how to do it. I just don't see how that can equate to making a story
:02:33. > :02:38.that's going to hit the headlines. Richard was the 200th of the
:02:38. > :02:41.British Armed Forces to die in Afghanistan. She has set up a
:02:42. > :02:46.charity in his honour. But the police are not able to say whether
:02:46. > :02:50.her phone was tapped. The very papers who supposedly have a great
:02:50. > :02:54.deal of support for the military services go and do something like
:02:54. > :02:58.this. To me, that is the ultimate betrayal of those men. It is
:02:59. > :03:06.literally having somebody stab you in the back when you thought
:03:06. > :03:11.somebody could trust to -- when you thought it was somebody you could
:03:11. > :03:17.trust. It is totally unfair, underhand and incomprehensible. It
:03:17. > :03:21.makes you feel sick to your stomach. The Government, spurred on by
:03:21. > :03:25.Labour, started an inquiry to look back at what went wrong. Lord
:03:25. > :03:30.Justice Leveson has been appointed to oversee the inquiry into the
:03:30. > :03:35.News of the World scandal and media regulation. He will have the powers
:03:35. > :03:40.to call proprietors, politicians and editors to give evidence.
:03:40. > :03:44.of the depth of the depravity to which this newspaper went was not
:03:44. > :03:48.known to us until quite recently and some of the things that have
:03:48. > :03:53.been trying to save the last year in Parliament about the way the
:03:53. > :04:03.news of the well-behaved, I knew or I guessed, but we could not prove
:04:03. > :04:03.
:04:03. > :04:08.it, another proof is out there. There was a rough ride from a
:04:08. > :04:15.committee, as with previous inquiries. Politicians in the
:04:15. > :04:20.spotlight on taking action. I am on the News of the World's database. I
:04:20. > :04:25.don't know exactly what these twisted minds get up to. So
:04:25. > :04:30.basically I am just covering myself. I don't know what lines of inquiry,
:04:30. > :04:35.current inquiry, will lead to. Either in wrongdoings or alleged
:04:35. > :04:39.wrongdoings, and what will emerge. A few years ago, I was being called
:04:39. > :04:44.incessantly by News of the World, and I was so convinced there were
:04:44. > :04:47.hacking my phone that I told people at the time but it was not a big
:04:47. > :04:57.story and people were not interested. But now it looks likely
:04:57. > :05:00.that my phone was hacked. It is thought it could go back to 1999.
:05:00. > :05:06.This man accidentally discovered how easy it was to listen to
:05:07. > :05:12.voicemail on any mobile phone. Two tabloid newspapers were shown at
:05:12. > :05:15.this simple procedure. They were amazed. They were gobsmacked.
:05:15. > :05:20.Basically, they could not believe what we told them. They said they
:05:20. > :05:25.would come back to me after they had tried it out. They rang me back
:05:25. > :05:28.after a short time and said, yes, it works, it is brilliant! Leave it
:05:28. > :05:34.with us. This is going to be massive headlines, a front page
:05:34. > :05:44.story, but we have got to do work with at first. Those torpid and
:05:44. > :05:52.
:05:53. > :05:58.local news a national radio at the time -- those on a local news.
:05:58. > :06:00.think I may have inadvertently started this. It is clear but the
:06:00. > :06:05.latest police investigation is intent on shining light where
:06:05. > :06:13.others did not. And that means in the weeks and months ahead, it will
:06:13. > :06:17.be possible to see where this will end.
:06:17. > :06:23.Earlier, I spoke to a member of a Select Committee who were asked a
:06:23. > :06:30.number of police officers why the first investigation failed to find
:06:31. > :06:37.out the scale of the phone-hacking. I was very dissatisfied with the
:06:37. > :06:40.answers. Clearly, some had some 17 investigations on the go at the
:06:40. > :06:46.time. Other answers were simply incredible and I think this is a
:06:46. > :06:48.long way to go. It is important to note there is now an investigation
:06:48. > :06:53.by the Independent Police Complaints Commission into the
:06:53. > :07:00.allegations that police officers had been paid for information, and
:07:00. > :07:04.that first is a very important first step. But we have to look at
:07:04. > :07:08.the wider issues as well. And of course, there is another
:07:08. > :07:13.investigation going on and we were invited to look at the scale of
:07:13. > :07:19.that investigation in some of the evidence you heard? Yes, it is very
:07:19. > :07:27.clear that the new investigation with a new senior investigation
:07:27. > :07:35.officer is now seen as very important. It is some reassurance,
:07:35. > :07:40.given that the -- the Met seemed to get it wrong. What other questions
:07:40. > :07:45.that you would like to see the enquiry answering? There are
:07:45. > :07:49.questions about why the first investigation did not make use of
:07:49. > :07:52.all the the nation that was available to it. What were the
:07:52. > :07:59.relationships between the Metropolitan Police and there
:07:59. > :08:04.seemed to be... And the media, and there seem to be new facts and
:08:04. > :08:10.revelations coming out as time goes on. I don't think we know the whole
:08:10. > :08:17.of the story just yet. And there's the question of just how these
:08:17. > :08:20.sorts of techniques were able to develop and how far they extended
:08:21. > :08:24.more broadly within journalism at Fleet Street. All of these are very
:08:24. > :08:28.important questions. And are you happy with the terms of reference
:08:28. > :08:32.that have been set out by the Prime Minister? They do seem to cover the
:08:32. > :08:37.important questions, although I would hope that the inquiry would
:08:37. > :08:42.follow the evidence where it leads. If fresh questions emerge, the
:08:42. > :08:46.inquiry will be constrained from following the evidence. The Prime
:08:46. > :08:50.Minister said he hopes that part one of the inquiry, which has
:08:50. > :08:55.largely addressing the questions you have outlined, will report back
:08:55. > :09:01.within a year. Do you think that his ambitious? I do not think it is
:09:01. > :09:05.over-ambitious. That is very be undertaken quickly and we must
:09:05. > :09:08.come to conclusions. The problem with old-style inquiries is that
:09:08. > :09:12.there are very slow and bureaucratic and may find out
:09:12. > :09:18.everything at the end of the day but almost by the time it is too
:09:18. > :09:22.late to do anything to change practice and culture, and, when
:09:22. > :09:26.necessary, lead to change in legislation. I think this is a
:09:26. > :09:30.watershed moment and a moment that needs to be seized. Parliament, I
:09:30. > :09:34.think in the last week, has seize that opportunity. It is very
:09:34. > :09:40.important inquiry takes us where we need to go and it is not any cause
:09:40. > :09:43.for delay. On the point of this been a watershed moment, there have
:09:43. > :09:47.been people who said it represents a permanent shift in the power
:09:47. > :09:51.dynamic between politicians and the press. But given that Rupert
:09:51. > :09:55.Murdoch is not the first press baron who has had arguably too much
:09:55. > :09:59.employ and several politicians, how convinced I knew that you can say
:09:59. > :10:04.with confidence this represents a permanent change? -- how convinced
:10:04. > :10:09.that I knew? I think we felt the tectonic plates moving within this
:10:09. > :10:16.week and that is why it is so important we do not take our eye
:10:16. > :10:19.off the main issues. The issue is, how much power does a commercial
:10:19. > :10:23.organisation or individual have in the UK and it is a question not
:10:23. > :10:28.pursued vigorously enough in the past. It now has to be pursued very
:10:28. > :10:31.vigorously. We now have the opportunity to do so because there
:10:31. > :10:36.will be a permanent shift and journalists will note that they
:10:36. > :10:39.have to stay within the bounds. I think good journalists who want to
:10:39. > :10:43.be responsible investigators, who want to get to the truth, and make
:10:43. > :10:49.sure things come out in the public interest are very distinct from
:10:49. > :10:54.those who just want to be in and do what their bosses want them to do
:10:54. > :11:01.in terms of selling papers. I think this is a moment which actually
:11:01. > :11:05.will free up decent journalists. That involves the Press Complaints
:11:05. > :11:10.Commission being re-established on a totally different bases. The
:11:10. > :11:14.current one is a laughing stock. We need an Independent Press
:11:14. > :11:19.Complaints Commission of some sort but it needs to be genuinely
:11:19. > :11:23.independent, underpinned by legislation and able to do its job
:11:23. > :11:28.fearlessly in the interests of both the public and decent journalists.
:11:28. > :11:38.Thank you. The Conservatives in the Assembly
:11:38. > :11:39.
:11:39. > :11:47.have a new leader. He beat the rival contender next Ramsay by 53%
:11:47. > :11:53.to 47%. The sea was lost previously, in spite of the fact that he won it
:11:53. > :11:58.previously. -- the seat. We are now joined by Mr Davies.
:11:58. > :12:01.Congratulations to you. A few weeks ago on this programme, the Deputy
:12:01. > :12:05.Leader of the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament said his party
:12:05. > :12:10.had a lot to learn from the Welsh Conservatives and the way they
:12:10. > :12:14.approached politics. What sort of lessons do you think your party's
:12:14. > :12:19.reasons success has to teach? think we have got a great brand
:12:19. > :12:24.here are Wales. And that is whether we are working in Westminster or
:12:24. > :12:29.the local Assembly. This shows how many members want to engage with
:12:29. > :12:36.the National Assembly and the Assembly group. We have had over 20
:12:36. > :12:41.meet and greets, two mail shots and members of really embracing the
:12:41. > :12:47.devolution aspect. How do you intend to build on recent success?
:12:47. > :12:52.Above all, to deliver a positive message. Were have a great country
:12:52. > :12:59.we live in, a good economy we can build on and actually we need to
:12:59. > :13:04.make sure NHS and jobs are top of the priority list. Sadly, we have
:13:04. > :13:07.not been able to deliver to people and Wales what they want. I want to
:13:07. > :13:10.make sure we are proud about being Welsh and proud of being part of
:13:10. > :13:15.the United Kingdom, and we will accentuate that at every
:13:15. > :13:19.opportunity. Labour have just one of the elections, so that would
:13:19. > :13:25.suggest they are delivering what people want? They did not come back
:13:25. > :13:32.with a majority, which is something that Carwyn Jones set himself. They
:13:32. > :13:35.are not delivering on education and the international indicators show
:13:35. > :13:38.that Welsh education performance targets are at the bottom of the
:13:38. > :13:43.league tables and the economic indicators show Wales is at the
:13:43. > :13:48.bottom of that as well. I want to make sure we turn that around and
:13:48. > :13:53.people look to Wales and say, we are proud to be Welsh. Very
:13:53. > :13:56.recently, the four parties have agreed to terms of reference to
:13:57. > :14:02.look at the way Wales is under it. What is your position on fiscal
:14:02. > :14:06.devolution? Are you a supporter? Ultimately, my colleague was in
:14:06. > :14:11.discussions yesterday and a letter was sent on behalf of the joint
:14:12. > :14:18.leaders of the group in the Assembly to the Secretary of State.
:14:18. > :14:23.I have been imposed for a few hours... But you must have given
:14:24. > :14:28.the opposition during the campaign? Will you set it up for us here on
:14:28. > :14:33.Dragon's Eye? Well, I will make sure Wales gets the resources it
:14:33. > :14:37.requires and that it has a campaign... And that above all it
:14:38. > :14:42.develops these services here in Wales to provide economic stability,
:14:42. > :14:46.opportunity and the jobs that will keep young people here in Wales.
:14:46. > :14:52.And when you look at the Government's legislative programme,
:14:52. > :15:02.not one reference to business or economics. I am not clear on your
:15:02. > :15:05.
:15:05. > :15:12.answer to my question. Where do you We will have the Calman Commission.
:15:12. > :15:21.We delivered the referendum and power was to the Assembly. We are
:15:21. > :15:31.standing up for Wales. The people here want a real alternative. We
:15:31. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:35.will succeed. Thank you. On Tuesday in the Prime Minister was welcome
:15:35. > :15:41.to Cardiff Bay. He confirmed there would be a commission looking at
:15:41. > :15:51.the way the Assembly was funded and suggested that Wales could learn a
:15:51. > :15:52.
:15:53. > :15:58.thing or two from the reforms to public services in England. People
:15:58. > :16:05.are looking to you to improve their lives. Let me be frank, like a many
:16:05. > :16:10.other parts of the UK, or some public services in Wales are too
:16:10. > :16:15.bureaucratic. I believe that now is the time to modernise a were public
:16:15. > :16:21.services and in England that is what we are doing. After Mr Cameron
:16:21. > :16:26.left the chamber, there was another big speech. The first minister
:16:26. > :16:36.detailed laws he wanted passed in the next five years. The opposition
:16:36. > :16:54.
:16:54. > :16:57.said he overlooked things like the A plan to promote economic, social
:16:57. > :17:03.wealth. The Welsh government says the laws it will introduce over the
:17:04. > :17:10.next five years world create healthy people and vibrant
:17:10. > :17:14.communities. There are a lot of people out there that should be
:17:14. > :17:19.allowed to have a site like this said they can develop it, like I
:17:19. > :17:25.have done here, and everyone has an opportunity to get out of the house
:17:25. > :17:32.and garden. It gives a sense of achievement to people when they
:17:32. > :17:36.grow their own stuff. It is a great money saver. Your own vegetables
:17:36. > :17:41.always taste the best! And getting more people out in the fresh air at
:17:41. > :17:47.tending plots like these is part of the vision. There are 20 people on
:17:47. > :17:54.the waiting list of this allotment. That government says it will
:17:54. > :18:02.introduce a law that will free up more land to meet the demand.
:18:02. > :18:07.Legislation will give guidance to councils and individuals. If there
:18:07. > :18:11.was a genuine need for more plots, individuals can go to the council
:18:11. > :18:15.and followed the legislation that has been put in place. The First
:18:15. > :18:18.Minister also said there would be legislation to tackle
:18:18. > :18:24.underperforming schools and to change the system of organ donation
:18:24. > :18:32.so that people opt out of it rather than opt in. There are plans to
:18:32. > :18:37.make councils provide cycling routes in key areas. Also, parents
:18:37. > :18:42.will need to give their consent before a child has a cosmetic
:18:42. > :18:49.piercing. This is the most detailed programme to be presented to the
:18:49. > :18:54.Assembly and since the referendum in March, he can push on without
:18:54. > :19:03.asking permission from Westminster. But does he programme meant the use
:19:03. > :19:10.of the talk at his disposal? It is not going to set my own or anyone
:19:10. > :19:17.else's past alike. People will be helpful to have them, but it's
:19:17. > :19:23.nothing great. And on fundamental issues like the economy, some claim
:19:23. > :19:28.they is a lack of focus. You cannot make laws of that create jobs. You
:19:28. > :19:38.do it through the use of France and loans and creating a policy that
:19:38. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:49.makes Wales attractive to investments. The first minister
:19:49. > :19:53.
:19:53. > :19:58.needs to show some leadership. We need to turn the corner from
:19:58. > :20:04.focusing on the social economy. We need to talk business. The First
:20:04. > :20:11.Minister says other parties have a part to play in nurturing new
:20:11. > :20:14.policies. He says there needs to be scrutiny, but warned against
:20:14. > :20:18.political point scoring. Without a clear majority in the Assembly he
:20:18. > :20:28.is likely to need other parties to muck in and give their support.
:20:28. > :20:31.
:20:31. > :20:41.Some proposals may be nipped the but, but others may reach fruition.
:20:41. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:51.I am joined to discuss all of that by representatives from all parties.
:20:51. > :20:57.Welcome to Dragon's Eye. So, what is the big idea? A I was proud to
:20:57. > :21:01.be in the chamber when it Wales set out its legislative agenda without
:21:01. > :21:07.having the permission of Westminster. We have four themes.
:21:07. > :21:12.Sustainability is that the heart of everything we want to do. There is
:21:12. > :21:20.also the improvement of health, justice, or social care and
:21:20. > :21:26.government issues that will free up sectors of the economy in Wales. We
:21:26. > :21:32.have a huge green agenda to push forward as well. What did you make
:21:32. > :21:37.of it? I think deep disappointment was in terms of the economy. Carwyn
:21:37. > :21:45.Jones is right. You cannot legislate to get jobs, but you can
:21:45. > :21:51.legislate to give the talks to local government to create jobs. We
:21:51. > :21:59.can create her Welsh stock exchange, used Business rates to create jobs.
:21:59. > :22:06.It was a glaring omission and it shows back the priorities of this
:22:06. > :22:16.government is not about finance. you legislate you cannot legislate
:22:16. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:31.for job creation, why is it on the agenda? Well, there was nothing to
:22:31. > :22:38.encourage people to come to Wales in the statement. We have nothing
:22:38. > :22:42.that gives us any flicker of hope as far as employment is concerned.
:22:43. > :22:50.Isn't this really a programme from a government that does not have a
:22:50. > :22:54.majority? Yes, it is historic, but we wanted to see more detail. We
:22:54. > :23:03.have been waiting a long time for this statement and I think we need
:23:03. > :23:08.to have much more detail. For example, the hysterics -- historic
:23:08. > :23:11.buildings Bill. That is not coming in for a while. I still think there
:23:11. > :23:16.is arrogance there with the Labour Party. They need our support if
:23:16. > :23:21.they want to get bills through. Where was their emphasis on job
:23:21. > :23:26.creation? Our emphasis is on sustainability and getting things
:23:26. > :23:31.right and generating economic renewal which will make Wales a
:23:31. > :23:38.better place to come to to invest, to live and to be. That is across
:23:38. > :23:43.an enormous range of things like tourism, social welfare, making our
:23:43. > :23:48.environment at the centre of everything we do, to invest in our
:23:48. > :23:53.tourism industry and make Wales attractive. Fiddling around the
:23:53. > :24:00.edges with business rates, which does not need legislation by the
:24:00. > :24:04.way, and sorting out issues regarding enterprise zones, we have
:24:04. > :24:11.only got �10 million to put into that area. We will be doing that,
:24:11. > :24:16.but in a way that get the most out of our money. The First Minister
:24:16. > :24:20.taught about the responsibilities on opposition parties to be
:24:20. > :24:25.constructive and to find consensus of where possible. What do you
:24:25. > :24:29.regard as the largest opposition party are the obligations on you to
:24:29. > :24:39.facilitate or otherwise be programme of the government?
:24:39. > :24:46.have any late -- a new leader from today, so we will be sitting down
:24:46. > :24:52.and discussing our agenda. We will not be destructive, but we will
:24:52. > :24:56.challenge where we need to. What are your thoughts on the roles of
:24:56. > :25:04.the opposition parties with the arithmetic as it is? They need to
:25:04. > :25:08.be constructive. We need to deliver an agenda and a government that
:25:08. > :25:14.have the best interests of the people of Wales at heart. We will
:25:14. > :25:19.try to make sure that the bills that go through of the best for the
:25:19. > :25:25.people of Wales. We do need to refocus on the economy, however.
:25:25. > :25:35.it is possible, in theory, that your party or Peter Black's party
:25:35. > :25:38.
:25:38. > :25:43.could find itself in coalition with the government. How does that
:25:43. > :25:47.impact on your party? What is disappointing is that we have been
:25:47. > :25:55.calling for a plan of government for some time and I think the lack
:25:55. > :26:00.of respect in terms of giving us concrete evidence if Carwyn Jones
:26:00. > :26:09.want a coalition of the future, he needs to be more respectful of
:26:09. > :26:15.Plaid Cymru. I don't think we are getting at the moment. Carwyn Jones
:26:15. > :26:19.has less power than Alex Salmond. We need to get access to Alan
:26:19. > :26:29.natural resources, it changed the planning laws. There's their areas
:26:29. > :26:33.
:26:33. > :26:43.he needs to look at. The plan has been viewed as underwhelming. Is it
:26:43. > :26:44.
:26:44. > :26:48.due to unrealistic expectations? do not think it is disappointing.
:26:48. > :26:58.We set out a comprehensive programme across a for big fines
:26:58. > :27:03.for Wales. They are all important. We have a consensus on fiscal
:27:03. > :27:08.devolution. It is very important and drives economic change. What
:27:08. > :27:14.are your thoughts, very briefly. Was it oversold during the
:27:14. > :27:19.referendum? I don't think it was, but people want to see that
:27:19. > :27:25.government putting their words into action. We had been so long in
:27:25. > :27:29.waiting for action people are disillusioned. A I think it has
:27:29. > :27:34.been oversold by Carwyn Jones. He has talked it up and when it
:27:34. > :27:40.finally came it was a disappointment. I had been waiting
:27:40. > :27:45.a long time to be where I am. It is tied to get down to business.
:27:45. > :27:49.far all the opposition parties, this is entirely down to the Labour
:27:49. > :27:57.Party. Julie Jones, I will give you the final word. I think we have
:27:57. > :28:03.done so well so far. I hope we have scrutiny from the opposition, but
:28:03. > :28:09.also consensus. Thank you. That is it for this week and this term. We
:28:09. > :28:13.will be taking a break over the summer. It has been a very busy