0:00:01 > 0:00:10A strike next week, proposals to change employment rights this week.
0:00:11 > 0:00:21
0:00:21 > 0:00:25What does it all mean for working Good evening. Next week, millions
0:00:25 > 0:00:30of public sector workers are expected to go on strike in protest
0:00:30 > 0:00:35at plans to change their pensions. This week, the business Secretary
0:00:35 > 0:00:40proposed measures that he says will make it easier for companies to
0:00:40 > 0:00:50hire and fire employees. But some employment lawyer say it could be
0:00:50 > 0:00:57
0:00:58 > 0:01:03discriminatory. -- lawyers. It is the time of industrial unrest,
0:01:03 > 0:01:08unparalleled in decades. Public sector unions leave their members
0:01:08 > 0:01:12out on strike in protest against the government's pension plans. The
0:01:12 > 0:01:17government says it is about cutting bureaucracy and reducing the number
0:01:17 > 0:01:22of cases going to employment tribunals, which have increased by
0:01:22 > 0:01:2840% over the last three years. They denied they are eroding workers's
0:01:28 > 0:01:32writes. They say it is not about creating a hire and fire culture.
0:01:32 > 0:01:40Ministers say they want to make it simpler and quicker for businesses
0:01:40 > 0:01:45to get rid of staff. We want to make sure the system is fair to
0:01:45 > 0:01:49everybody. There has to be a system that is fit for purpose. You can't
0:01:49 > 0:01:54have a situation where you are afraid to take somebody on because
0:01:54 > 0:02:00you are afraid that you might want to get rid of them, or they might
0:02:00 > 0:02:07not work out. It needs to be fair, flexible and just. There was a
0:02:07 > 0:02:13survey conducted by the Department of Business and only 6% of small
0:02:13 > 0:02:18and medium-sized employers responded to that survey and they
0:02:18 > 0:02:26said that legislation regulations for a start was a barrier to
0:02:26 > 0:02:31success. This man took his form or employers to court and won his case.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35He is now an Assembly member. taking right away from workers
0:02:35 > 0:02:45which is the main thing. If they have been treated unfairly, they
0:02:45 > 0:02:48
0:02:48 > 0:02:54should be compensated. The other main thing is to save employees
0:02:54 > 0:03:01going to a tribunal. It is expensive. My union paid up to
0:03:02 > 0:03:09�40,000. Other part of the proposals could cause problems,
0:03:09 > 0:03:19like employees having the right to have protected conversations with
0:03:19 > 0:03:27
0:03:27 > 0:03:33their employees. - - employers. of the issues his retirement and
0:03:33 > 0:03:40that is ultimately about age discrimination. The Citizens Advice
0:03:40 > 0:03:48Bureau or are concerned that people will have to pay upfront for
0:03:48 > 0:03:52tribunal access. The Ministry of Justice is also going to introduce
0:03:52 > 0:03:58application and hearing fees for tribunal cases, which will make a
0:03:58 > 0:04:03substantial barrier to justice for low paid workers. There is talk
0:04:03 > 0:04:13that the application fee will be �250 and the hearing fee will be
0:04:13 > 0:04:18�1,000. From April, workers will also have to be employed for two
0:04:18 > 0:04:23years rather than one before they can claim unfair dismissal. The law
0:04:23 > 0:04:33changed just over a decade ago when the Labour government reduce the
0:04:33 > 0:04:34
0:04:35 > 0:04:38period when unfair dismissal could be claimed. It could be challenged
0:04:38 > 0:04:44legally at the European level because it may discriminate against
0:04:44 > 0:04:54women. I can see it happening, and challenge against the validity of
0:04:54 > 0:04:56
0:04:56 > 0:05:00this law. Since 1972, we have been members of the European Community.
0:05:00 > 0:05:06Decisions at the European Court of Justice are paramount in our legal
0:05:06 > 0:05:09system. It is not the first time that the coalition's policies have
0:05:09 > 0:05:14been criticised for being disproportionately hard on women,
0:05:14 > 0:05:20and that would hurt them in the court of public opinion, especially
0:05:20 > 0:05:25with female voters. It is going to be hard work, constant hard work to
0:05:25 > 0:05:30ensure a level playing field for women workers and men workers. Look
0:05:30 > 0:05:34at the differentials with pay, for example. Higher executive pay. But
0:05:34 > 0:05:40looking at direct and indirect sex discrimination, we have had to
0:05:40 > 0:05:46fight long and hard over many years to get some degree of equality. It
0:05:46 > 0:05:50does not come easy, and I see this as a backward step by this
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Conservative-led government. Economic gloom and industrial
0:05:54 > 0:05:59strife do not go hand in hand, but as the government tries to balance
0:05:59 > 0:06:04Business demand and employment -- employment rights in law, they
0:06:04 > 0:06:07could find it difficult to satisfy either side.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Brian Meechan reporting, and thanks to Cardiff University Law School
0:06:10 > 0:06:13for use of their facilities. Joining me from our Milbank studio
0:06:13 > 0:06:16is the Liberal Democrat peer Lord German and here with me in the
0:06:16 > 0:06:22studio is the Labour Assembly member Mick Antoniw. Gentlemen,
0:06:22 > 0:06:24welcome to the programme. Do you support these proposals? Yes. It is
0:06:24 > 0:06:29a proportional change the government is making to make it
0:06:29 > 0:06:33easier for people to be taken on, particularly by small companies,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37and to make it easier for workers to get their compensation in a
0:06:37 > 0:06:42swifter and less confrontational way than having to go straight to
0:06:42 > 0:06:51court. What is missing from your piece is that there are a raft of
0:06:51 > 0:06:55proposals that will give people a chance to get their matter resolved
0:06:55 > 0:07:03using the reconciliation service rather than having to go to court.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06I think Mike should hand -- hang his head in shame. You know and I
0:07:06 > 0:07:12know that these proposals will not create any jobs. It is not about
0:07:13 > 0:07:16growth, it is about pandering to a Conservative right-wing agenda.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20They came close to losing a vote in the House of Commons and this is
0:07:20 > 0:07:24about keeping the right wing of the Tory party happy. There is no
0:07:24 > 0:07:28evidence this will create a single job. I had been doing this for 31
0:07:28 > 0:07:31years and quite frankly, it will make no difference whatsoever other
0:07:31 > 0:07:36than to discern how workers from having any protection and security
0:07:36 > 0:07:39in the workplace. Part of the problem is that we are tried to
0:07:39 > 0:07:44keep the lawyers out of it. We have tried to give people the
0:07:44 > 0:07:48opportunity to get them matters resolved quickly without having to
0:07:48 > 0:07:54resort to expensive court cases, which as one of the contributors in
0:07:54 > 0:07:58your package say it, will cost thousands of pounds. Surely it is
0:07:58 > 0:08:04better to have a straight forward the conciliation service which is
0:08:04 > 0:08:08of low cost to everyone, can be dealt with swiftly and can result
0:08:08 > 0:08:14in people thinking they can get their retribution more quickly and
0:08:14 > 0:08:23at the same time taking some of the fear out that employers have
0:08:24 > 0:08:28overtaking someone on. there is a better way of doing this and we
0:08:28 > 0:08:33need to meet current demands. There will be employers who are therefore
0:08:33 > 0:08:39now, particularly small employers, there will have taking people on.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43We will pick up on that in the second. This point about going to
0:08:43 > 0:08:47ACAS to resolve a dispute before automatically going to an
0:08:47 > 0:08:52employment tribunal. That does make sense. Eight has already comes in
0:08:52 > 0:08:57on many disputes. Disciplinary procedures already had conciliation
0:08:57 > 0:09:06in it. This is reinventing the wheel. It already exists and will
0:09:06 > 0:09:10make no difference. And, of course, there will be no tribunal cases at
0:09:10 > 0:09:14all. Cannot be right that a person does not have any security and any
0:09:14 > 0:09:18right not to be unfairly dismissed in the workplace? If that were true,
0:09:19 > 0:09:24I would be opposing it, but the rights are still there for people
0:09:24 > 0:09:32to go to court, although that is the last resort. It is not. Yes it
0:09:32 > 0:09:36is. If you cannot go to a tribunal, if you do not have that right...
0:09:36 > 0:09:42course you have the right to go to a tribunal. If you do not have it,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45you are powerless. You have got it wrong. Firstly, you have to go to
0:09:45 > 0:09:51reconciliation to ACAS. If you cannot resolve it, then you can go
0:09:51 > 0:09:56to court. Let us move on to a different point. The extension of
0:09:56 > 0:10:00the period in which an employee is not able to claim for unfair
0:10:00 > 0:10:03dismissal - as a gesture of from one lawyer that that is potentially
0:10:03 > 0:10:09discriminatory against women. Does that concern you? The department
0:10:09 > 0:10:13and the government denied that. The issue here it is one that is going
0:10:13 > 0:10:18back to a position we were in 10 years ago where that period of time
0:10:18 > 0:10:22emerges. But I would hope that in our legislative processes that we
0:10:22 > 0:10:26don't have to have such hard shoulder to the way we deal with
0:10:26 > 0:10:30employee disputes. It is very important we make life more
0:10:30 > 0:10:34flexible, but for the worker and the employer, in the way they can
0:10:34 > 0:10:39be dealt with and the way they can deal with matters. The court should
0:10:39 > 0:10:45be the last resort. Do you see any justification in the argument
0:10:45 > 0:10:53underline the government's position which is that it employers feel
0:10:53 > 0:10:56that they don't have employees are tied to them, they will be more
0:10:56 > 0:11:03likely to hire them and that is what we need? There is no evidence
0:11:03 > 0:11:08of that and Vince Cable's evidence does not make sense. There is no
0:11:08 > 0:11:13justification for this at all and I challenge Mike, surely one piece of
0:11:13 > 0:11:19evidence that actually establish is that employers would take people on
0:11:19 > 0:11:24if their employees have the right? Whilst only 6% bought it as No. 1
0:11:24 > 0:11:33at as a barrier to taking on new staff, others put it further down
0:11:33 > 0:11:40the list. You can understand why. Secondly and thirdly, for many
0:11:40 > 0:11:46employees is the issue... That is not evidence. Asked in an
0:11:46 > 0:11:53employer... Gentlemen, I am grateful to you both for such a
0:11:53 > 0:11:57passionate debate. Factory macro for joining us on Dragon's Eye. --
0:11:57 > 0:12:00Thank you. It could be the biggest strike in a
0:12:00 > 0:12:02generation. If planned industrial action by the some of the biggest
0:12:02 > 0:12:05trade unions goes ahead next Wednesday, more than two million
0:12:05 > 0:12:08public sector workers across the UK and tens of thousand in Wales could
0:12:08 > 0:12:11be staying away from work. In Swansea, almost a third of the
0:12:11 > 0:12:17workforce is employed in the public sector. So what impact could it
0:12:17 > 0:12:21have on the city? Here's Bethan Lewis.
0:12:21 > 0:12:27Some people would rather avoid it for a bit longer, but in Swansea,
0:12:27 > 0:12:31the evidence is clear to see. There is only a month to go before
0:12:31 > 0:12:35Christmas and before the festive season proper starts, thousands of
0:12:35 > 0:12:40the city's workers will be joining talks and joining the biggest
0:12:40 > 0:12:43strike for decades and possibly the biggest ever. Teachers, council
0:12:43 > 0:12:47workers and NHS staff are among those due to strike on Wednesday.
0:12:47 > 0:12:53The union say they have no alternative in view of UK
0:12:53 > 0:12:57government plans to increase the amount employees pay into their
0:12:57 > 0:13:03pension funds and making them work longer before they can collect the
0:13:03 > 0:13:07money. I caught up with Ben Holland, who is a teacher on the outskirts
0:13:07 > 0:13:17of Swansea. He went to work this morning, but next Wednesday he will
0:13:17 > 0:13:24
0:13:24 > 0:13:29It is a threefold attack. It is an increase in the retirement major --
0:13:29 > 0:13:33age, and an increase in our contributions. I cannot afford it.
0:13:33 > 0:13:42And it is a move to a system which means that my pension will be with
0:13:42 > 0:13:4615% less than without these changes. -- will be worth.
0:13:46 > 0:13:51Across Wales, a quarter of the workforce is employed in the public
0:13:51 > 0:13:56sector. In Swansea, it is close to one third. Not all of those 33,000
0:13:56 > 0:14:01people will be on strike next week, but the effect could be felt more
0:14:01 > 0:14:06keenly here than in most places. strike would be bad for the local
0:14:06 > 0:14:11economy. Lot of disruption for individuals. In the case of schools,
0:14:11 > 0:14:17we will find it very disruptive for schools and working parents. --
0:14:17 > 0:14:22pupils and working parents. If you have made an appointment for his
0:14:22 > 0:14:26use run by your local council, these are likely to be affected.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30well as council jobs, the area has a high number of UK government
0:14:30 > 0:14:37workers and those jobs are extremely valuable according to a
0:14:37 > 0:14:41local MP. He Storrar, job that came to Swansea, like the DVLA and the
0:14:41 > 0:14:49Land Registry, were brought here because we were communities that
0:14:49 > 0:14:51needed jobs. -- historically. They were to replace the mechanised
0:14:51 > 0:14:55industries we were losing, so public sector jobs are very
0:14:55 > 0:15:00precious and we need to keep those jobs. The government insists the
0:15:00 > 0:15:05reform is needed because of the rising cost of pensions. Elsewhere
0:15:05 > 0:15:09in the city, this small business owner believes there is little
0:15:09 > 0:15:13support for the action from people who work for private businesses.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18This computer training firm has had to cut staff because of the tough
0:15:18 > 0:15:24economic trading conditions. many small to medium-size
0:15:24 > 0:15:34enterprises, they do not exist any pension schemes. A lot of companies,
0:15:34 > 0:15:35
0:15:35 > 0:15:40with those under 20 workers, the main objectives are to stay alive.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45The private sector will look at the public sector and say, "look, they
0:15:45 > 0:15:51are earning as much as I am. They have better security than I have
0:15:51 > 0:15:56these days, and they have a better pension. And I am paying for that
0:15:56 > 0:16:01better pension, as a private employer, through my taxes".
0:16:01 > 0:16:04everyone is sympathetic to the cause, but Ian, who is a litter
0:16:05 > 0:16:08picker for the council, says the pension he is trying to protect is
0:16:08 > 0:16:16far from a gold-plated benefits of which some believe is standard in
0:16:16 > 0:16:21the public sector have. I will be in a pension scheme 28 years when I
0:16:21 > 0:16:25retire and by pension will be less than �6,000 a year. So it is a bit
0:16:25 > 0:16:30of a myth, I think. Maybe people further up the line get good
0:16:30 > 0:16:33pensions but I don't think anybody would call that gold plated.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38looks like Swansea's Winter Wonderland will be open as usual
0:16:38 > 0:16:44next Wednesday, though it is council run. The staff of from a
0:16:44 > 0:16:47private company. But as for key council services, there is likely
0:16:47 > 0:16:53to be more disruption. The council say they will have a better idea of
0:16:53 > 0:16:56the likely impact over the next couple of days. It is almost
0:16:56 > 0:16:59certain public services in Swansea will take a hit next week, but
0:16:59 > 0:17:05whether it helps train to the stance of the UK government will
0:17:05 > 0:17:09not be clear for some time. -- change at the stance. Meanwhile,
0:17:09 > 0:17:13the season of goodwill is on hold as the stand-off between ministers
0:17:13 > 0:17:17and unions continues. Earlier, I spoke to Dominic
0:17:17 > 0:17:20MacAskill from Unison. I asked why unions were proceeding with the
0:17:20 > 0:17:25strike, when the deal they were being offered was still much better
0:17:25 > 0:17:28than the average private sector pension. In terms of public sector
0:17:28 > 0:17:34services, they cost money and we need to pay people appropriate
0:17:34 > 0:17:39wages to attract them. Pensions are deferred wages, services, in effect,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43a pay cut for public-sector workers. Private sector pensioners have
0:17:43 > 0:17:47nothing to gain it from the race to the bottom by undermining public
0:17:47 > 0:17:51sector pensions. It would be cheaper for them, wouldn't it?
0:17:51 > 0:17:55would be cheaper, but do you get quality services if you undermine
0:17:55 > 0:18:00the services you are provided by reducing people's pay and
0:18:00 > 0:18:06conditions? This is not about making pensions more sustainable.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09It is, in effect, a windfall tax on public sector workers, because the
0:18:09 > 0:18:19previous reviews of the public sector pension schemes concluded
0:18:19 > 0:18:22that, in 2008, and they made significant savings. A cross-party
0:18:22 > 0:18:29parliamentary body has estimated upwards of �60 billion has already
0:18:29 > 0:18:34been saved over the coming five decades from the scheme. Hutton's
0:18:34 > 0:18:40own report indicated that public- sector pensions, as a percentage of
0:18:40 > 0:18:46GDP, had peaked and was on its way down. So we don't see this as being
0:18:46 > 0:18:49about pensions but about a windfall tax on public sector workers.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55Hutton - not a Conservative or Liberal Democrat, in fact a former
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Labour minister, has backed a case for reform and said the existing
0:18:59 > 0:19:03system benefited the top end is in the public sector. That is another
0:19:03 > 0:19:08question - the issue about whether to go for a career average scheme
0:19:08 > 0:19:12or a final-salary scheme. Unison is fairly neutral on that, because we
0:19:12 > 0:19:17see a lot of benefits for the vast majority of our members in the
0:19:17 > 0:19:23career average scheme. But it is about the accrual rate. If you have
0:19:23 > 0:19:32a poor up a crew will rate, it is a very poor scheme. -- a week -- a
0:19:32 > 0:19:35crew will rate. What about public support? This strike has the
0:19:35 > 0:19:40potential to inconvenience millions of people, up-and-down the country,
0:19:40 > 0:19:44too, for the most part - and I returned to this point - will have
0:19:44 > 0:19:49much poorer pensions than the ones you are on strike to defend.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53Unison's campaign is about their pensions fall. By due a striking to
0:19:53 > 0:20:01protect public sector pensions. This is where the attack is focused.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05-- but you are striking. The private sector workers have nothing
0:20:05 > 0:20:08to gain from reducing and undermining public sector pensions:
0:20:08 > 0:20:12Because that will only encourage the private sector to further
0:20:12 > 0:20:16undermine private sector pensions. The general public have recognised
0:20:16 > 0:20:22that this is not just about their pensions. This is a wider cuts
0:20:22 > 0:20:29agenda, a wider issue of paying off the decks of the bankers. But
0:20:29 > 0:20:35government have expected to to have public opinion on their side. -- of
0:20:35 > 0:20:41the debt of the bankers. Upwards of 3 million of our members will be
0:20:41 > 0:20:45taking action on November 30th, and they have families, friends.
0:20:45 > 0:20:50Public-sector workers are the general public. Finally, briefly,
0:20:50 > 0:20:54how long will this fight go on, do you think? The government seems
0:20:54 > 0:21:01solid in its position that it must have public-sector pension reform.
0:21:01 > 0:21:06Well, I certainly believe 30th November will demonstrate to the
0:21:06 > 0:21:11government that not only are public sector workers feeling strongly
0:21:11 > 0:21:18about this, but that the feeling is widespread. So I hope that the
0:21:18 > 0:21:22government will take notice of the 30th and take back -- comeback to
0:21:22 > 0:21:27the negotiating table with real compromises, so there we can agree
0:21:27 > 0:21:32to a settlement. But we have got no illusions that this government is a
0:21:33 > 0:21:38friend of public-sector workers. We are preparing to battle on this
0:21:38 > 0:21:42issue. Dominic MacAskill of Unison there. Joining me to discuss the
0:21:42 > 0:21:50issues surrounding next week's strike is the Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn
0:21:50 > 0:21:54Llwyd in London, under Conservative M -- AM Byron Davies.
0:21:54 > 0:22:01Elfyn Llwyd, do you support the strike? A yes, because I don't
0:22:01 > 0:22:04believe a government have been fair - and I speak as the vice chair of
0:22:04 > 0:22:07the parliamentary group, and I know intimately what has been going on.
0:22:07 > 0:22:15Francis Maude has refused to meet them and refused to give
0:22:15 > 0:22:20information. Moving away from the parliamentary committee, the
0:22:20 > 0:22:24teachers' pot was last valued in 2004 and announced in 2006. It was
0:22:24 > 0:22:28in surplus at that time but we don't know what it is like now.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31There is an excuse that somehow there is a big, black hole. Unless
0:22:31 > 0:22:35you are able to get the information, how can you judge whether the
0:22:35 > 0:22:39government is telling the truth? I do not think the way in which
0:22:39 > 0:22:43Francis Maude on the government ministers are handling this is
0:22:43 > 0:22:52anything but goading the unions into a position where the only
0:22:52 > 0:22:57thing they have left is to withdraw their labour. I know the efforts
0:22:57 > 0:23:00that have been made to have any constructive dialogue a but they
0:23:00 > 0:23:03have been thwarted. Is the UK government spoiling for a fight
0:23:04 > 0:23:08with the unions? A I don't agree with Elfyn Llwyd when he says we
0:23:08 > 0:23:12are goading the unions into a fight. The present government has taken a
0:23:12 > 0:23:16very responsible attitude towards what is a difficult financial
0:23:16 > 0:23:21situation, which was inherited. People are living longer and we
0:23:21 > 0:23:23must realise that. We have got to be able to afford to pay pensions.
0:23:23 > 0:23:28I knew accepting the allegation that Dominic MacAskill made in the
0:23:28 > 0:23:35interview, that this is about pain of the deficit, not securing the
0:23:35 > 0:23:39long-term security of public sector pensions? No, not at all. Who would
0:23:39 > 0:23:44run the bank's? The bankers. Who was in charge at the time? The
0:23:44 > 0:23:48Labour government. It was not public sector workers, but the
0:23:48 > 0:23:52reality is we are where we are. We have to deal with it and we cannot
0:23:52 > 0:23:56afford to pay the pensions we are at the moment. That sounds like it
0:23:56 > 0:24:00is about deficit reduction. If you are saying it is about dealing with
0:24:00 > 0:24:04the become a crisis, that is about debt reduction. There may be an
0:24:04 > 0:24:11element of that. For people who are currently in the pension schemes,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14there is a ten-year cushion, so it is not that bad. Take up that point,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Elfyn Llwyd, that the government has put forward a compromise offer
0:24:17 > 0:24:22to soften the impact of these reforms for those who are
0:24:22 > 0:24:27approaching retirement age. that small number, yes, that is
0:24:27 > 0:24:32true. But I won't let Byron Davies get away with this. He says
0:24:32 > 0:24:34pensions are not sustainable. There has a report said they were best --
0:24:34 > 0:24:39sustainable and that as a percentage of GDP, they were coming
0:24:39 > 0:24:44down, even now, at the National Audit Office reported that they
0:24:44 > 0:24:49were sustainable. These are independent report, so I am not
0:24:49 > 0:24:54prepared to listen to this nonsense about there being unsustainable. We
0:24:54 > 0:24:58watched the bankers do as they wished and leave us in a huge hole.
0:24:58 > 0:25:03The weaker people at the bottom end have to bail them out. That is not
0:25:03 > 0:25:06any kind of wisdom or fairness to me. I see that the unions do not
0:25:06 > 0:25:11want to strike just before Christmas, but they are left with
0:25:11 > 0:25:16no other option and I don't blame them. Lord Hutton nevertheless
0:25:16 > 0:25:21supported the case for reform. reform, but this is not reform - it
0:25:21 > 0:25:26is savage cuts. Remember, if you will, that the public sector are
0:25:26 > 0:25:32expected to accept a pay freeze for the next two years. That means a
0:25:32 > 0:25:35real-terms cut in pay over the next two years of about 11%. On top of
0:25:35 > 0:25:42that, they expect them to pay more towards a pension that will give
0:25:42 > 0:25:48them less at the end of the day. It is grossly unfair. Thank you. Is
0:25:48 > 0:25:53there any room for compromise, Byron Davies? Leads to us get this
0:25:53 > 0:25:57right. We talk about fairness - what about the small companies that
0:25:57 > 0:26:01are trying to make their way through the current situation? They
0:26:01 > 0:26:07would be happy for some of their workers to have some of this public
0:26:07 > 0:26:12service pension money. I just can't except what Elfyn Llwyd says.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16is a specious argument. What has it got to do with the public sector? I
0:26:16 > 0:26:22worked in the private sector and I employed 28 people, so I know a bit
0:26:22 > 0:26:26about that. Looking across... have worked in the private sector
0:26:26 > 0:26:30and I have worked in the public sector for 32 years. Looking across
0:26:30 > 0:26:35with an envious eye is ridiculous. The it is not an envious eye, it is
0:26:35 > 0:26:43realistic. Thank you fought joining us to discuss those issues. That
0:26:43 > 0:26:47was fun! Let's go over to Betsan Powys.
0:26:47 > 0:26:51Let's talk about the budget negotiations. A in the fast lane,
0:26:51 > 0:27:00they are keeping it quiet. I spoke to pied come resources speaking
0:27:00 > 0:27:04about Labour not putting up their efforts. -- applied Cumbria.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08Government sources this evening are talking on speed text. They say
0:27:08 > 0:27:12they are not running at eight Running commentary. The same with
0:27:12 > 0:27:18the Lib Dem source I spoke to, but we have spoken to another Lib Dems
0:27:18 > 0:27:21sauce. They said that Labour had been told to wake up and smell the
0:27:21 > 0:27:28coffee. They said the coffee was on and could be smelt from the 5th
0:27:28 > 0:27:37floor. Remind us what the opposition parties want in order to
0:27:37 > 0:27:40give their support. Plied want emergency package measures and
0:27:40 > 0:27:49emergency money spent quickly. They are talking about skills and
0:27:50 > 0:27:54creating jobs. The Lib Dems are talking about something akin to a
0:27:54 > 0:27:59pupil premium in England. Aitken would be the Blair bed because that
0:27:59 > 0:28:09would tie the government into doing something over quite a few years. -
0:28:09 > 0:28:10
0:28:10 > 0:28:15- the key word of there. The others have let themselves out. And the
0:28:15 > 0:28:19timetable, briefly? They have to lay the Budget on the 29th, so all