0:00:00 > 0:00:10Lesley Griffiths and Andrew Lansley have fallen out over breast
0:00:10 > 0:00:16
0:00:16 > 0:00:19implants. This is Dragon's Eye. Good Evening. The Health Minister
0:00:19 > 0:00:23says she's had to make decisions over how to deal with PIP breast
0:00:23 > 0:00:25implants in Wales without all the evidence. Lesley Griffiths is
0:00:25 > 0:00:31claiming the UK Government didn't share information, including an
0:00:31 > 0:00:33official report, quickly enough as the health crisis unfolded. That's
0:00:33 > 0:00:36denied by her Westminster counterpart, Andrew Lansley, who
0:00:36 > 0:00:38argues that the Welsh Government's policy of replacing the implants
0:00:38 > 0:00:48risks letting the private companies who performed the original surgery
0:00:48 > 0:00:55
0:00:55 > 0:01:00off the hook. Here's Brian Meechan. It's a health crisis that couldn't
0:01:00 > 0:01:04have been planned for and as a result, it seems politicians and
0:01:04 > 0:01:09the medical profession have been scrambling to keep up with events.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13I'm not sure we have been caught on the hop, but it's rapidly
0:01:13 > 0:01:17increasing and as we know with the internet information spreads
0:01:17 > 0:01:22quickly. Concern can spread quickly, perhaps a bit faster sometimes than
0:01:22 > 0:01:24the reassurance. The advice in the UK is that there is no need for all
0:01:24 > 0:01:30the low-grade silicone PIP breast implants to be removed, only those
0:01:30 > 0:01:35that are causing problems. A different approach emerged between
0:01:36 > 0:01:39London and Cardiff. The Welsh NHS would remove them and replace,
0:01:39 > 0:01:42whilst in England they would only be replaced in exceptional
0:01:42 > 0:01:46circumstances. It's been confusing and even minister worrying for
0:01:46 > 0:01:50women than it had to be. That's because we saw the Government
0:01:51 > 0:01:54position changing both in the UK and in Wales quite significantly.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58Clearly, the regulatory system has failed and the information
0:01:58 > 0:02:03providing to Government has not been reliable. It was a clash at
0:02:03 > 0:02:07First Minister's Questions. Also to replace those implants quite
0:02:07 > 0:02:12frankly is absolutely an appalling decision, which taxpayers clearly
0:02:12 > 0:02:15do not support. I think he'll find it rather different. Are you
0:02:15 > 0:02:18seriously saying you would be happy to see the implants removed, but
0:02:18 > 0:02:22nothing put in place to replace them? Are you seriously saying
0:02:22 > 0:02:25that? If you do, you have very little understanding of human
0:02:25 > 0:02:28nature and you have little understanding of sympathy for
0:02:28 > 0:02:32others. The UK Government says the private medical practises that put
0:02:32 > 0:02:35the implants in should be responsible for the removal and
0:02:35 > 0:02:40replacement. Welsh ministers agree, but critics say their decision has
0:02:40 > 0:02:46made it less likely that that will now happen. I have to say to the
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Shadow secretary, if he commends what the Welsh Government has done,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54he - perhaps he were to do so, to commend it, they have to recognise
0:02:55 > 0:02:58it runs the risk of letting the private providers off the hook.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03Effectively it gives them a get out of jail free card to the private
0:03:03 > 0:03:07clinics who have a duty of care to the patients who they have put
0:03:07 > 0:03:10implants in. I think it's quite wrong of taxpayers to pick up the
0:03:10 > 0:03:13bill. The dispute seems to have highlighted divisions between
0:03:13 > 0:03:18London and Cardiff over their response to the PIP scandal.
0:03:18 > 0:03:24think it speaks to an underlying tension between London and Cardiff,
0:03:24 > 0:03:30on health policy. Theoretically the matters are devolved, but it's not
0:03:30 > 0:03:35as cut and dried in real issues and there's a deGrecian of conned sen
0:03:35 > 0:03:39shun from London to Cardiff. Welsh Government is clear it has no
0:03:39 > 0:03:43idea how many women in Wales have the implants nor how much each
0:03:43 > 0:03:48procedure will cost to replace them and critics say they should have
0:03:48 > 0:03:51found that out before signing off a blank cheque. The Welsh Government
0:03:52 > 0:03:55has made this uncosted commitment at a time when the finances are
0:03:55 > 0:03:58already broken. They are at breaking point and we know local
0:03:58 > 0:04:02health wards will be over budget by the end of the financial year and
0:04:02 > 0:04:05to make another commitment of taxpayers' money towards this sort
0:04:05 > 0:04:10of project is completely barmy. It's a flaw in the whole system in
0:04:11 > 0:04:16Britain that we don't have a proper registry, as we do with orthopaedic
0:04:16 > 0:04:20implants, to know exactly who has got them and how many have got them.
0:04:20 > 0:04:25Ultimately, I have to say, as someone looking after these women,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28I don't really mind. It's a sense of compassion for the women. They
0:04:28 > 0:04:32have paid into the NHS. There is a need for them to have their
0:04:32 > 0:04:35implants removing and in that respect the Welsh government is
0:04:35 > 0:04:39doing no more than it should legally do with women who have got
0:04:39 > 0:04:49something inside them that shouldn't be there. Gl there have
0:04:49 > 0:04:54also been concerns expressed by GPs. Only yesterday the Royal College of
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Surgeons in England, along with my own association and others produced
0:04:58 > 0:05:04some very specific guidance which is really helpful and that's
0:05:04 > 0:05:08available for GPs and patients on the various websites. As I say, the
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Welsh Government will produce shortly even more detail. The NHS
0:05:12 > 0:05:18budget is being cut in real terms and the Health Service coming under
0:05:18 > 0:05:22pressure to deliver more for less. While wards are being closed and
0:05:22 > 0:05:27provisions cut back, some critics say is now the time for the NHS to
0:05:27 > 0:05:30be clearing up a private sector mess? There are fears that the
0:05:31 > 0:05:35waiting lists for plastic surgery in Wales will be tested unless more
0:05:35 > 0:05:40resources are made available to deal with this. We have been
0:05:40 > 0:05:43assured by the Welsh Government and the minister and by Special
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Commission, who are handling this on behalf of the Welsh Government,
0:05:47 > 0:05:51that they will do what is necessary to make sure that this doesn't
0:05:51 > 0:05:55impact on our current waiting lists. To be honest, our lists are already
0:05:55 > 0:06:00long and we are working closely with the health boards in Wales to
0:06:00 > 0:06:05try to get them where they should be and if we were asked to do this
0:06:05 > 0:06:10work on top, that would be a problem. In a year when extra
0:06:10 > 0:06:13funding was being ploughed into the NHS the decision to replace poor-
0:06:13 > 0:06:17quality breast implants may have been less controversial. It's
0:06:17 > 0:06:24perhaps a symptom of the current economic times that it's become so
0:06:24 > 0:06:27now. Brian has been talking to the health minister. We've been told by
0:06:27 > 0:06:32plastic surgeons that we have no idea of the number of women
0:06:32 > 0:06:36involved here. It could be 20, or it could be 2,000. We have no idea
0:06:37 > 0:06:39the cost of each procedure. Isn't this really an uncosted proposal?
0:06:39 > 0:06:42We don't know how much the procedure is going to cost, but
0:06:42 > 0:06:46there is a figure obviously for removing the implants and then to
0:06:46 > 0:06:50replace them is not a great difference. Probably just in the
0:06:50 > 0:06:53hundreds. There is that element. We don't know the numbers and getting
0:06:53 > 0:06:57a firm number is one of the priorities and officials are trying
0:06:57 > 0:07:00to find them out quickly. However, we know that they have not been
0:07:00 > 0:07:04used by NHS in Wales, these implants and they haven't been used
0:07:05 > 0:07:07by private providers in Wales, so we do know that and we think the
0:07:07 > 0:07:12number will be relatively low. problem you have is that you are
0:07:12 > 0:07:14relying on private companies to give you information. They haven't
0:07:15 > 0:07:19been forthcoming so far, so there could be lots of women who don't
0:07:19 > 0:07:21have PIP, who are going to have to be tested anyway? Officials are
0:07:21 > 0:07:24ringing around private providers and we have been getting the
0:07:24 > 0:07:29numbers, so I think they have been telling us this. This isn't letting
0:07:29 > 0:07:33the providers off the hook. I think we are putting pressure on the
0:07:33 > 0:07:37private providers to make sure they recognise their duty of care. That
0:07:37 > 0:07:41is one thing that we are very keen to get over. This is not a blank
0:07:41 > 0:07:45cheque. We are not taking that away. We do expect private providers to
0:07:45 > 0:07:49step up to the plate and really fulfil their duty of care to women.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53If they get a phone call from a woman in Wales they know it's
0:07:53 > 0:07:57already been underwritten by the Welsh Government. They are going to
0:07:57 > 0:08:02shrug their shoulders and carry on? There are legal aspects and duty of
0:08:02 > 0:08:05care and we are putting pressure on them. It's ultimately private
0:08:05 > 0:08:08companies, who have made a mess of this. It's their problem. Surely
0:08:08 > 0:08:11you should be putting pressure on them to fix it, rather than letting
0:08:11 > 0:08:14them off the hook? It's their responsibility and we expect them
0:08:15 > 0:08:18to do it. What we have said is for any woman who is concerned and
0:08:18 > 0:08:21can't get in touch with her provider for a variety of reasons,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25they are not in practice, for example, we are saying they should
0:08:25 > 0:08:29see the surgeon and if they can't, then they should have an assessment
0:08:29 > 0:08:32by the GP. The evidence at the moment is still that they are not
0:08:32 > 0:08:37necessarily having to have these implants removed. Until we know
0:08:37 > 0:08:41that, we'll take the steps forward when we need to. One of the things
0:08:41 > 0:08:45that you have talked about is a clinical need. What do you mean by
0:08:45 > 0:08:48that specifically? Is it a physical need or is there an element of
0:08:48 > 0:08:54mental need about it, because obviously the fact this is in the
0:08:54 > 0:08:57news so much it becomes a sort of mental health issue potentially?
0:08:57 > 0:09:00could potentially and I'm concerned that so many women have this fear
0:09:00 > 0:09:04and I don't think that is too strong a word. That is the message
0:09:04 > 0:09:08I've had. We are wanting to say and get this out very clearly, at the
0:09:08 > 0:09:13moment there is to clinical evidence to say that women who have
0:09:13 > 0:09:18had PIP implants need them removing. However, if they are concerned they
0:09:18 > 0:09:22should see their surgeon or GP. Many of the GPs have said that they
0:09:22 > 0:09:26have not been getting the guidance that they need from the Welsh
0:09:26 > 0:09:32Government. Do you accept that there's been short comings in that
0:09:32 > 0:09:35area? We had to - the initial start of this process was coming from the
0:09:35 > 0:09:38Department of Health and unfortunately we weren't party to a
0:09:38 > 0:09:41lot of information coming. My officials were having great
0:09:41 > 0:09:44difficulty getting information from the Department of Health in the
0:09:44 > 0:09:47first instance about eleven days ago. We couldn't get to see the
0:09:47 > 0:09:52independent report, so we have had to take decisions perhaps that we
0:09:52 > 0:09:55would have preferred to have taken much more firmly, but we had to
0:09:55 > 0:10:00take decisions because we needed things to be taken swiftly. The
0:10:00 > 0:10:04guidance is out there. My officials are working hard and if any woman
0:10:04 > 0:10:07is concerned make an appointment to see the surgeon or the GP, and
0:10:07 > 0:10:11we'll support you all the way. you saying that the Department of
0:10:11 > 0:10:14Health has not been sharing information with the Welsh
0:10:14 > 0:10:17Government? A week last Friday there was a definite lack of
0:10:17 > 0:10:22sharing of information. I have written to the Secretary of State
0:10:22 > 0:10:26because obviously I think the regulation of these implants and
0:10:26 > 0:10:30perhaps other surgical devices needs to be much closely inspected
0:10:30 > 0:10:34and regulated and I think there is a concern here about this. You may
0:10:34 > 0:10:37be aware, we have a surgical materials testing lab in Bridgend,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and we are the only country in the UK to have this and I have written
0:10:40 > 0:10:43to the Secretary of State asking him and the other devolved
0:10:43 > 0:10:48administration health ministers to see if they would like to use it,
0:10:48 > 0:10:54because we are leading the way in this. At a time when NHS budgets
0:10:54 > 0:10:58are being squeezed and we are seeing closures of wards, why is
0:10:58 > 0:11:02this a priority? It's not going to be an urgent treatment. If a woman
0:11:02 > 0:11:06is found to need the breast implant removed and replaced I don't think
0:11:06 > 0:11:11from the evidence I've been given it will be urgent. They will go on
0:11:11 > 0:11:16a list and the process will be followed through. Are you not
0:11:16 > 0:11:19concerned that this sets a precedent whereby very poor
0:11:19 > 0:11:29practice on part of private companies and NHS are having to
0:11:29 > 0:11:31
0:11:31 > 0:11:33pick up the tab? No, I don't think so. Well, a Department of Health
0:11:33 > 0:11:36spokesperson has told this programme - "The allegations are
0:11:36 > 0:11:39simply untrue" and that the Chief Medical Officer had shared "all
0:11:39 > 0:11:42available information". They go on to say that "The Welsh Government
0:11:42 > 0:11:45did not inform us prior to their announcement on PIP implants."
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Setting up a Commission can mean one of two things - a Government
0:11:48 > 0:11:51wants to do something or a Government doesn't want to do
0:11:51 > 0:11:54something. This week the UK Government announced it was setting
0:11:54 > 0:11:58up a Commission to look at whether Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish
0:11:58 > 0:12:01MPs should be prevented from voting on matters affecting England only.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05Pressure has been growing on the UK Government to address concerns that
0:12:05 > 0:12:09English voters being sidelined in post devolution Britain. The
0:12:09 > 0:12:17Commission consists of a panel of experts and will report in May 2013.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21Our Parliamentary Correspondent, David Cornock, reports. It was
0:12:21 > 0:12:25launched with a minimum of fuss. Not even a ministerial photo call
0:12:25 > 0:12:29or interview, but the Commission on the couldn't quepbss of devolution
0:12:29 > 0:12:35for the House of Commons could have a big impact on the way this place
0:12:35 > 0:12:38is run -- consequences. It's a Westminster-focused commission. It
0:12:38 > 0:12:43will look at issues of Parliamentary and legislative
0:12:43 > 0:12:46practice and procedure. It's going to find it quite hard to look at
0:12:46 > 0:12:49wider issues of how England is governed, although there is
0:12:49 > 0:12:54increasing evidence that the English are getting really quite
0:12:54 > 0:12:58anxious about the wider issues and they need to be addressed somehow.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03That evidence appears to be growing. One of the things we wanted to look
0:13:03 > 0:13:07at was English attitudes to the West Lothian question and we asked
0:13:07 > 0:13:13English people whether they think that Scottish MPs should be barred
0:13:13 > 0:13:18from voting on English matters and 79% of people said they should.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Political parties used to target Worcester woman, the floating voter
0:13:22 > 0:13:24in middle England. This Worcester woman has been trying to change the
0:13:24 > 0:13:27law to answer the question. It's something in the coalition
0:13:27 > 0:13:32programme for Government to set up a commission to look into these
0:13:32 > 0:13:39issues and I think as an MP who represents an English constituency,
0:13:39 > 0:13:44a lot of my constituents say to me that they are concerned that
0:13:44 > 0:13:48English-only legislation is voted through potentially by MPs who
0:13:48 > 0:13:53don't represent England. Here's one of those MPs who doesn't represent
0:13:53 > 0:14:03England. Paul Murphy represents a Welsh seat, but has sat in the UK
0:14:03 > 0:14:13
0:14:13 > 0:14:16One of his predecessors, the Conservative John Redwood, says
0:14:16 > 0:14:20England feels hard done by and needs a stronger voice in the union.
0:14:20 > 0:14:27He wants English votes on English issue, but there is another
0:14:27 > 0:14:31question posed by this week's announcement, why now? With Alex
0:14:31 > 0:14:39Salmond pushing for an independent Scotland, and David Cameron trying
0:14:39 > 0:14:41to keep it together, why risk it? The timing is unfortunate. The
0:14:41 > 0:14:45inevitable conclusion of the commission will be that Scottish
0:14:45 > 0:14:50MPs are not allowed to vote on English-only legislation or are
0:14:50 > 0:14:58restricted in voting, and that, arguably, weakens the United
0:14:58 > 0:15:03Kingdom Parliament and therefore weakens the United Kingdom.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Alex Salmond's high-profile campaigning is helping fuel English
0:15:06 > 0:15:09resentment? I wouldn't say resentment, but I find English
0:15:09 > 0:15:13people saying you have Welsh people in the Cabinet and Scottish people
0:15:13 > 0:15:17in the Cabinet. Who is representing us? You have your Assembly, they
0:15:17 > 0:15:21say. The Scots have their Parliament. Where's ours? There is
0:15:21 > 0:15:26a build-up. We know there are several English-based parties now
0:15:26 > 0:15:29who are looking at a Parliament for England. Which could be one answer
0:15:29 > 0:15:35to the West Lothian question. Already three answer to the West
0:15:35 > 0:15:36Lothian question - one is reduce the number of MPs from Scotland and
0:15:36 > 0:15:41Northern Ireland, Wales from Westminster which mean that is
0:15:41 > 0:15:45continue to vote on all business, but they have less influence
0:15:45 > 0:15:49because there are fewer of them. The second is what is called an
0:15:49 > 0:15:54English Parliament. That would mean creating a separate distinct
0:15:54 > 0:16:00institution to represent England. The third answer which has been
0:16:00 > 0:16:05constituent policy at the recent elections is English votes for
0:16:05 > 0:16:12English laws. That's a vote Harriet Harman hopes
0:16:12 > 0:16:16will be delivered. The Speaker can certify certain pieces of
0:16:16 > 0:16:20legislation that are England only and through the standing orders, as
0:16:20 > 0:16:25they're called, we can decide situation where the majority of
0:16:25 > 0:16:31English MPs is also required. conceivable you could also have a
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Labour UK Government that didn't have the majority of seats within
0:16:34 > 0:16:39England. That would create questions about how you implement
0:16:39 > 0:16:42English votes for English laws. one said it would be easy. Perhaps
0:16:42 > 0:16:46the West Lothian question is rath really an English question.
0:16:47 > 0:16:52Whatever the academic answer are to all of this, the political reality
0:16:52 > 0:16:55is such if we start weakening the role of Welsh Members of Parliament
0:16:55 > 0:16:59together, reducing their numbers, that is actually playing into the
0:16:59 > 0:17:02hands of the people who want to see the breakup of this country.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Conservative-led coalition won't like that solution, so will the
0:17:05 > 0:17:11commission achieve anything? ever, it's the Government feeling
0:17:11 > 0:17:17they have to appear to be doing something to answer a question that
0:17:17 > 0:17:22was first asked by in the 1970s and has been asked ever since. It needs
0:17:22 > 0:17:25panel of experts because it's a very tricky question, and it
0:17:25 > 0:17:29probably doesn't have a tidy answer, but if anyone is going to have a
0:17:29 > 0:17:33way of coming up with squaring the circle, it's this body of expert
0:17:33 > 0:17:38opinion. If Westminster does become more of an English Parliament, that
0:17:38 > 0:17:41could throw up new questions. If Welsh MPs are banned from voting on
0:17:41 > 0:17:45English issues, then could an MP with an English seat still be
0:17:45 > 0:17:50appointed Secretary of State for Wales? The question perhaps for
0:17:50 > 0:17:53another commission. David Cornock reporting on the
0:17:53 > 0:17:56commission looking at voting rights of MPs from the devolved nations.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58The body will begin its review against a background of shifting
0:17:58 > 0:18:01currents across the UK. Here in Wales, the Silk Commission is
0:18:01 > 0:18:04looking at the way Wales is funded, and the Scottish Government is
0:18:04 > 0:18:07preparing to publish its plans for an independence referendum. Its
0:18:07 > 0:18:10First Minister, Alex Salmond, has already had a war of words with
0:18:10 > 0:18:19David Cameron over that. BBC Scotland's Political Editor Brian
0:18:19 > 0:18:23Taylor gave me the latest. It's important to talk about the process
0:18:23 > 0:18:27and the rules determining a referendum. Some people may think
0:18:27 > 0:18:30it's rather arcane, but it matters that we get the rules and the
0:18:30 > 0:18:34regulations correct for the referendum. We are, after all,
0:18:34 > 0:18:37dealing with the future of the union that's lasted 300 years. It
0:18:37 > 0:18:41might be a reasonable idea to get it right, so where we are at the
0:18:41 > 0:18:45present moment is we have a dispute between the Scottish and UK
0:18:45 > 0:18:49governments on absolute fundamental issues with regard to the
0:18:49 > 0:18:53referendum. We have a dispute on timing. The UK Government want it
0:18:53 > 0:18:56eerily. The Scottish Government says 2014. We have a dispute on
0:18:57 > 0:19:01legality. The UK Government says Scotland can't hold a referendum
0:19:01 > 0:19:04unless it gets further powers. Alex Salmond says no. We can order a
0:19:04 > 0:19:09consultation. We have a dispute above all about the question or
0:19:09 > 0:19:17questions to be asked. Alex Salmond wants the flexibility to ask a
0:19:17 > 0:19:23second question on devolution maxed. Rather than Holyrood independence -
0:19:23 > 0:19:28it must be a yes or no on independence. We hear lat of
0:19:28 > 0:19:36discussion about devo-Max as a possible option. What does Alex
0:19:36 > 0:19:40Salmond mean? Alex Salmond says it's up to others
0:19:40 > 0:19:47- perhaps civic Scotland, perhaps the intellectuals who might be
0:19:47 > 0:19:52tempted to come up with this in detail, but of course the
0:19:52 > 0:19:56Government in February 2010 publishes a draft bill. They define
0:19:56 > 0:20:02it as being full control of all tax revenues and spending in Scotland
0:20:02 > 0:20:06with the exception of defence, Foreign Affairs, currency and the
0:20:06 > 0:20:12currency itself. They say it's up to others to
0:20:12 > 0:20:17define what they mean. Broadly, it's full control on spending.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20see a full consultation paper. What can we see there? Alex Salmond will
0:20:21 > 0:20:25state the details on his thinking of the referendum. We have only had
0:20:25 > 0:20:27a consultation paper from the UK Government. We'll have this
0:20:27 > 0:20:31consultation paper from the Scottish Government on the
0:20:31 > 0:20:35questions, the timing - just these issues that divide. Really, what we
0:20:35 > 0:20:38have here are the two governments seeking to assert their control of
0:20:38 > 0:20:41the referendum, their influence over the referendum. Alex Salmond
0:20:41 > 0:20:45has gone from a situation where he was telling the Prime Minister to
0:20:46 > 0:20:49butt out of the debate to a situation where he is open to
0:20:49 > 0:20:53negotiation and discussion as long as he says the primacy of the
0:20:53 > 0:20:57question - the primacy of the referendum is recognised as being
0:20:57 > 0:21:01in Scotland's hands, which means - the Scottish Parliament's hands
0:21:01 > 0:21:05which means the Scottish government's hands. It's early days
0:21:05 > 0:21:10to be taking about opinion polling and voter intentions. What with
0:21:10 > 0:21:17they telling us these days? Most polls tend to suggest a lead for
0:21:17 > 0:21:22union over independence. If they ask the extra question on devo-max
0:21:22 > 0:21:25or enhanced powers that seems to be the more popular. You're right. It
0:21:25 > 0:21:29is far, far too early to say the referendum details haven't been
0:21:29 > 0:21:32fixed, let alone the date or the campaign. Thank you very much.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34Plaid Cymru's been undergoing a period of soul searching since its
0:21:34 > 0:21:37disappointing performance in the Assembly elections last May. Its
0:21:37 > 0:21:39leadership contest will be concluded in March, and this week
0:21:39 > 0:21:43the party published a review examining where it's been going
0:21:43 > 0:21:46wrong and making recommendations about how it can get back on track.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49The review was lead by Eurfyl ap Gwilym, Plaid's Chief Economic
0:21:49 > 0:21:58Adviser. One of the themes emerging from the review is the need for
0:21:58 > 0:22:01clarity in agreeing and communicating policy. I asked him
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Mr ap Gwilym whether the number of recommendations - 95 in total -
0:22:04 > 0:22:10jeopardised that goal. That's a good question. What we did
0:22:10 > 0:22:13as part of this exercise - we came up with 95 detailed recommendations
0:22:13 > 0:22:17- we got five principle recommendations. The other thing to
0:22:17 > 0:22:22bear in mind - this report now goes to the party at large. It is to be
0:22:22 > 0:22:27the basis for a lot of debate within the party, then from within
0:22:27 > 0:22:31that debate, it's a matter for the party to decide if they accept this
0:22:31 > 0:22:33recommendation or reject it. Following on from that is to bring
0:22:33 > 0:22:37in an implementation plan and implement it over several years, so
0:22:37 > 0:22:42this is a part of the process, not the final end product. Would it be
0:22:42 > 0:22:46fair, then, to describe the long list of recommendations as a menu
0:22:46 > 0:22:50rather than a plan? You pick the ones you like? I wouldn't say that
0:22:50 > 0:22:53we believe the recommendations have validity and should be accepted by
0:22:53 > 0:22:59the pardy, but ultimately it's a matter for the party whether they
0:22:59 > 0:23:03accept them or not. As we worked our way through, this sounds
0:23:03 > 0:23:06paradoxIcal, but clearly Plyd Cymru hasn't been doing well in electoral
0:23:06 > 0:23:08terms. In my business experience if I have ever gone into a company
0:23:08 > 0:23:13which is having difficulties in terms of being successful, if you
0:23:13 > 0:23:18went and looked at the mechanisms of that company, you would find
0:23:18 > 0:23:22they all are working perfectly well, you have a problem. Paradoxically,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25in Plyd Cymru, lots of things we can improve on. That's why we have
0:23:25 > 0:23:29come up with so many recommendations. Lots about
0:23:29 > 0:23:33structure, but some are very basic - this in particular surprised me -
0:23:33 > 0:23:36in the case of official spokespersons it should be a
0:23:36 > 0:23:40precondition they develop a sound understanding of their own brief.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43It does beg the question of what sort of candidates the party has
0:23:43 > 0:23:48been picking up until this point if you have to say something that
0:23:48 > 0:23:52basic, is that right? Quite right. I am very critical of some we have
0:23:53 > 0:23:58seen, weak performances by some of our people on some subjects. Do you
0:23:58 > 0:24:03want to name names? No. They all know who they are. I mentioned they
0:24:03 > 0:24:05all need to pull up their socks, get a lot smarter, or they
0:24:05 > 0:24:09shouldn't be candidates or spokespeople. Do you think that is
0:24:09 > 0:24:13the sort of message they'll be willing to accept and other party
0:24:13 > 0:24:16members will be? I think the party membership will, and I hope most of
0:24:16 > 0:24:23our senior people will as well. We have not been doing well enough.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27It's as clear as that. And we have to up our game. This is why this is
0:24:27 > 0:24:31quite a hard-hitting report. Indeed. Are you talking about exceptions
0:24:31 > 0:24:34here in terms of underperformance, or would you say that then a
0:24:34 > 0:24:38general problem of underperformance among the party's elected
0:24:38 > 0:24:43representatives? I wouldn't say a general problem, but I think it's
0:24:43 > 0:24:48patchy. Somewhere I use the term "varied quality". Therefore, we
0:24:48 > 0:24:52need to get those that aren't performing as well to perform as
0:24:52 > 0:24:57well as some of our good performers. You talk about the changing
0:24:58 > 0:25:02perception of the party. You say Plyd Cymru is regarded as a party
0:25:02 > 0:25:06of Welsh speakers and talk about the need to change that. Other than
0:25:06 > 0:25:09the suggestion that the party should change its English name, you
0:25:09 > 0:25:14don't offer any guidance how to achieve that? We do in part. If you
0:25:14 > 0:25:21look at the report, a very basic thing - in quite large areas of
0:25:21 > 0:25:26Wales, we conduct a lot of our - in Welsh only. We are saying we must
0:25:26 > 0:25:30train our people to do simultaneous translation and get that as the
0:25:30 > 0:25:34norm. A lot of countries, including Europe, are multilingual. People
0:25:34 > 0:25:39are used to working in one language, but clearly, where we have meetings,
0:25:39 > 0:25:44it's very difficult unless you're a Welsh speaker that naturally is
0:25:44 > 0:25:48going to make us appear to be not only for Welsh speakers, but
0:25:48 > 0:25:55discourage non-Welsh speakers from joining us. Can I ask about
0:25:55 > 0:25:59independence. You have a call for clarity. Are you saying
0:25:59 > 0:26:03independence should be the banner behind which Plyd Cymru marches?
0:26:03 > 0:26:07Our constitutional aim - and unique to Plyd Cymru is we want
0:26:07 > 0:26:13independence for Wales within the European Union. Until last year we
0:26:13 > 0:26:17didn't actually have that spelt out in our stution. That's caused us --
0:26:18 > 0:26:24constitution. That's caused us some difficulties. While we have been
0:26:24 > 0:26:28reluctant... But the party is still divided on that issue. Look at your
0:26:28 > 0:26:32five leadership candidates... have four. Forgive me. That's all
0:26:32 > 0:26:39right, but let's just check this. Another thing we say - several
0:26:39 > 0:26:42years ago, as a member, we had an internal meeting on our policy, and
0:26:42 > 0:26:45the committee didn't publish that report. If we want unity around
0:26:45 > 0:26:49policies, you have to first of all afford the membership the
0:26:49 > 0:26:52opportunity to debate them, hammer them out, and then when you have
0:26:52 > 0:26:57done that then it's reasonable to call your membership right now.
0:26:57 > 0:27:02This is the policy we have agreed as a party collectively. Now
0:27:02 > 0:27:07support it. I am grateful for joining us. Thank you very much.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11If you have any suggestions as to who that mystery fifth candidate I
0:27:11 > 0:27:14invented might be, answer on a postcard. Maybe our Welsh affairs
0:27:14 > 0:27:19correspondent Vaughan sawn can help out.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22What are you hearing... Nominations haven't stopped. There could be a
0:27:22 > 0:27:29fifth. Maybe many members wish there were. It seems from the early
0:27:29 > 0:27:35stains of this contest - and it's quite a long contest - the
0:27:35 > 0:27:41candidates who -- the candidate who has gone up like a rocket is Leanne
0:27:41 > 0:27:46Wood. She seems to attract more attention Somme would have expected.
0:27:46 > 0:27:52Another of the candidates suggests that the race could be very close
0:27:52 > 0:27:56between the two women candidates - Ellen Jones and Leanne Wood, with
0:27:56 > 0:27:59the two male candidates lagging a little bit at the moment, but an
0:27:59 > 0:28:03awful lot of undecided's out there. Remember, this is one of those
0:28:03 > 0:28:06alternative vote candidates where people go one, two, three, four,
0:28:06 > 0:28:12and an awful lot will depend on the second and third preferences and
0:28:12 > 0:28:16who gets knocked out in the early stages. Remind us when it will be
0:28:16 > 0:28:20resolved. We're going to go through weeks and weeks of this, and when
0:28:20 > 0:28:26you get an announcement, you're then going to have the whole
0:28:26 > 0:28:31question of how that person will lead because one of the things that
0:28:31 > 0:28:36comes up in that report that Eurfyl ap Gwilym was talking about is the
0:28:36 > 0:28:41need for a leadership team. That to me suggests there may be a lack of
0:28:41 > 0:28:45confidence in the four candidates that they feel whichever one wins
0:28:45 > 0:28:51there are weaknesses there and they need people around them, perhaps
0:28:51 > 0:28:59the thought was that Jones had a little bit too much power over the