0:00:01 > 0:00:06It has received millions of pounds of public money. It has already
0:00:06 > 0:00:09been the subject of two government reviews. Now fresh allegations of
0:00:09 > 0:00:14financial irregularities and nepotism have left an organisation
0:00:14 > 0:00:18that is supposed to support some of Wales' most hundred represents to
0:00:18 > 0:00:21to read it is in crisis. And here in Edinburgh, a momentous week in
0:00:21 > 0:00:31Scottish politics, but what does it mean for Wales? This is Dragon's
0:00:31 > 0:00:40
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Good evening. The Welsh government has suspended its funding of the at
0:00:42 > 0:00:45All Wales Ethnic Minority Association, known as AWEMA,
0:00:45 > 0:00:52pending an investigation into Iraq allegations of financial corruption
0:00:52 > 0:00:56and nepotism. A highly critical report recommended that AWEMA's
0:00:56 > 0:01:00chief executive officer, Naz Malik, and his daughter, Tegwen Malik,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04should be suspended immediately pending a disciplinary inquiry.
0:01:04 > 0:01:09When the chair, Rita Austin, failed to implement the recommendations,
0:01:09 > 0:01:13seven out of the nine trustees resigned. It is nine years since
0:01:13 > 0:01:18Dragon's Eye first reported on concerns about management practices
0:01:18 > 0:01:24at AWEMA, which Mr Malik has led since 2001. They have already been
0:01:24 > 0:01:28two previous Welsh government reviews. Arwyn Jones reports.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32Its job is to promote equality and diversity for the benefit of the
0:01:32 > 0:01:35public. It is supposed to help develop the skills and abilities of
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Wales' diverse communities. It should raise awareness of
0:01:39 > 0:01:43discrimination and promote racial harmony. But our investigations
0:01:43 > 0:01:47found very little harmony at the All Wales Ethnic Minority
0:01:47 > 0:01:53Association, or AWEMA. It is the largest organisation of its kind in
0:01:53 > 0:01:57Wales, handling nearly �8.5 million of public money. Following a number
0:01:57 > 0:02:01of complaints against the chief executive of AWEMA, Naz Malik, a
0:02:01 > 0:02:06report was commissioned to to look at allegations of financial
0:02:07 > 0:02:09irregularities. The report, seen by Dragon's Eye, which is -- reaches
0:02:09 > 0:02:13several critical conclusions. Commissioned by the trustees, it
0:02:13 > 0:02:18claims that Naz Malik used Crewe funds in an inappropriate way
0:02:18 > 0:02:23including paying off his credit card debts worth over �9,000 --
0:02:23 > 0:02:27AWEMA funds. But he has increased his own benefit package without due
0:02:27 > 0:02:33openers for transparency, this includes his salary being increased
0:02:33 > 0:02:38to over �65,000 without approval from the charity's board. And that
0:02:38 > 0:02:42Mr Malik has authorised an appropriate payments, expenses and
0:02:42 > 0:02:46purchases which may constitute gross misconduct, and that Naz
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Malik's daughter, Tegwen Malik, had been employed and promoted on a
0:02:50 > 0:02:56number of occasions without any internal or external competition.
0:02:56 > 0:03:03The report shows Tegwen Malik's salary increased from �20,000 in
0:03:03 > 0:03:08January 2008, to �50,000 in August 2011. The report recommended that
0:03:08 > 0:03:12both Naz Malik and his daughter should be suspended immediately
0:03:12 > 0:03:16pending a disciplinary inquiry and hearing. That has not happened. It
0:03:16 > 0:03:19is understood the newly appointed chairman of AWEMA, Rita Austin,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23decided on a written and verbal warning instead -- verbal warning
0:03:23 > 0:03:28instead. Following that decision, seven of the nine trustees have
0:03:28 > 0:03:32resigned. Both Naz Malik and Tegwen Malik remain in post. This is the
0:03:32 > 0:03:34man who wrote the report. He doesn't want to discuss the details
0:03:35 > 0:03:39but is unhappy that his recommendations were not
0:03:39 > 0:03:48implemented. I recommended that a number of procedural steps should
0:03:48 > 0:03:53be taken, which would allow time for investigations to be held about
0:03:54 > 0:03:58a range of allegations that were made by a variety of people. I
0:03:58 > 0:04:04thought that was really, really important. My understanding is that
0:04:04 > 0:04:09has not happened and that the people who are running the
0:04:09 > 0:04:14organisation, both in terms of the border and in terms of management,
0:04:14 > 0:04:18have not in my view would be quickly followed through on the
0:04:18 > 0:04:22recommendations that I made -- Broad dashboard. They have taken
0:04:22 > 0:04:29several measures but I understand it they are measures which would
0:04:29 > 0:04:33not be viewed by many. The matter has reached the floor of the Senedd.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37Can I ask you once more in terms of a statement as the situation as
0:04:37 > 0:04:40regards AWEMA and the investigation that is taking place in to that
0:04:40 > 0:04:44organisation. Dragon's Eye can reveal that the Welsh government,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49the Big Lottery Fund and the Wales European funding Office have
0:04:49 > 0:04:54suspended their grants AWEMA pending further investigations. In
0:04:54 > 0:04:57total more than �3 million is being held back and the authorities are
0:04:57 > 0:05:02liaising with South Wales Police. This is not the first time the
0:05:02 > 0:05:04Welsh government has had to investigate the dealings of the All
0:05:04 > 0:05:09Wales Ethnic Minority Association. Nearly a decade ago Dragon's Eye
0:05:09 > 0:05:13looked into the matter after allegations of serious
0:05:13 > 0:05:17mismanagement. A Welsh government report at the time found there were
0:05:17 > 0:05:20serious weaknesses in the financial systems and expenses procedures of
0:05:20 > 0:05:24the organisation. The chief executive then, as now, was Naz
0:05:24 > 0:05:31Malik, so some people are asking what has been happening between
0:05:31 > 0:05:37then and now. If there has been a cover-up and if people have allowed
0:05:37 > 0:05:41him to stay in post when more than one inquiry has said that there are
0:05:41 > 0:05:44serious questions and serious concerns about his ability to run
0:05:44 > 0:05:48the organisation and the transparent -- in a transparent and
0:05:48 > 0:05:51accountable way, but there we must know why that has happened and who
0:05:51 > 0:05:57has decided that he should be allowed to remain in post.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00south-east Wales regional equality council does not accept money from
0:06:00 > 0:06:04AWEMA but many similar organisations do. If the funding
0:06:04 > 0:06:08for AWEMA has been frozen, other organisations would suffer as well.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10They ran a number of stakeholders in this organisation including
0:06:10 > 0:06:15partners in terms of European funding, very important projects
0:06:15 > 0:06:19which are under way to help young people particularly and paint are
0:06:19 > 0:06:24not only having to cope with this doubt but now they have had their
0:06:24 > 0:06:26funding suspended those projects are in jeopardy and that if
0:06:26 > 0:06:30anything underlines by this needs to be resolved as soon as possible
0:06:30 > 0:06:33and why the Welsh government and the other people involved in this
0:06:33 > 0:06:37investigation needs to bring this to a conclusion as soon as possible
0:06:37 > 0:06:40so we can decide finally what the fate of those individuals are.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44have tried to speak to him at Naz Malik this morning but had not been
0:06:44 > 0:06:47able to get hold of him. I spoke to him last night on the phone and he
0:06:47 > 0:06:51said it would not be appropriate to comment on anything while the Welsh
0:06:51 > 0:06:55government were investigating, but he did add that once those
0:06:55 > 0:07:01investigations had concluded he would make, and in due course. But
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Naz Malik is not usually so shy. He has been nominated to carry the
0:07:04 > 0:07:13Olympic flame in the London traded of Olympic Torch Relay. The person
0:07:13 > 0:07:16who nominated him was his daughter. That's right, Tegwen Malik.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20No one from Crewe was willing to talk to us on Dragon's Eye this
0:07:21 > 0:07:24evening. -- AWEMA. Neither was any one from the Welsh government. A
0:07:24 > 0:07:27spokesperson told us it would be inappropriate for a minister to
0:07:27 > 0:07:31comment while a review of allegations was pending, that will
0:07:31 > 0:07:35be the third review the Welsh government has instigated into
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Crewe since the end of 2002. I'm joined now by the Conservative AM,
0:07:39 > 0:07:45Darren Millar, who was the chair of the Assembly's Public Accounts
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Committee. Good evening. What do you make of this? It is clear that
0:07:48 > 0:07:53the investigation into the serious allegations is concluded as soon as
0:07:53 > 0:07:56possible. Many millions of pounds have been funded to AWEMA over the
0:07:56 > 0:08:00years by a different public bodies and the public have got to have
0:08:00 > 0:08:04some confidence that that money is being used appropriately. We will
0:08:04 > 0:08:07come back to the review his second but in terms of the practical
0:08:07 > 0:08:10considerations of the major funders apparently freezing the money, do
0:08:10 > 0:08:17you have concerns about the knock- on effects of that on the groups
0:08:17 > 0:08:20that AWEMA funds? I do. There is uncertainty out there. I have been
0:08:20 > 0:08:24contacted by organisations in North Wales for example under the
0:08:24 > 0:08:26Assembly Members have also been contacted and this is a time of
0:08:27 > 0:08:29uncertainty for all those partners organisations that are there
0:08:29 > 0:08:34delivering very important programmes which benefit had good
0:08:34 > 0:08:38number of people across the country. Returning to the regulation issue,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41the other side issue, if you like, I understand that you have already
0:08:42 > 0:08:45shed your concerns about that with the auditor general? That is right,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49I wrote to the auditor general soon as I became aware of the serious
0:08:49 > 0:08:53allegations that were being made. He is the individual responsible
0:08:53 > 0:08:55for public money making sure that we are getting good value for
0:08:55 > 0:08:59taxpayers and of course he is monitoring the situation closely
0:08:59 > 0:09:02and has been involved in setting the terms of reference for the
0:09:02 > 0:09:06investigation which is now under way. What about your committee, do
0:09:06 > 0:09:09you think it might have a role in looking at this? I am sure it will.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13I know a number of committee members are interested. We want to
0:09:13 > 0:09:16make sure that taxpayers' funds are protected and we want to make sure
0:09:16 > 0:09:21that they are used for the benefit of those people that they should be
0:09:21 > 0:09:24used for and not to lie in people's pockets and a think it is important
0:09:24 > 0:09:26to get to the bottom of these allegations, to find out what has
0:09:26 > 0:09:30happened and make sure that taxpayers get the good value for
0:09:30 > 0:09:33the pound that they deserve. Would you welcome a formal police
0:09:33 > 0:09:38investigation? I certainly would welcome a formal police
0:09:38 > 0:09:41investigation. At the moment we are told South Wales police have been
0:09:41 > 0:09:44informed of the on going much government investigation but
0:09:44 > 0:09:49clearly some of these allegations are criminal and nature and I think
0:09:49 > 0:09:53the police should step in and get involved. I don't think that
0:09:53 > 0:09:55everybody is entirely confident in the ability of the Welsh government
0:09:55 > 0:10:00to conclude its investigations and take the appropriate action
0:10:00 > 0:10:04particularly given that two investigations have already taken
0:10:04 > 0:10:09place and it appears that the same allegations have been repeated yet
0:10:09 > 0:10:12again now in spite of those two investigations. Unit trusts -- you
0:10:12 > 0:10:16anticipated my next question, which was how much confidence you have
0:10:16 > 0:10:22been the effectiveness of what is is sensually a Serb review into
0:10:22 > 0:10:26this organisation? It is a third review but this is a joint review
0:10:26 > 0:10:29between the three organisations who give the vast majority of funding
0:10:29 > 0:10:33to AWEMA. I think that should give us a bit more confident that things
0:10:33 > 0:10:37will be done right this time and that if there are any
0:10:37 > 0:10:41recommendations they should be followed up and fully implemented
0:10:41 > 0:10:44by AWEMA and the other organisations involved.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49Historically what is your view of the effectiveness of the oversight
0:10:49 > 0:10:53of successive Osh governments in looking at the allegations that
0:10:53 > 0:10:56have persisted about AWEMA and its management? Obviously I haven't
0:10:56 > 0:11:00been involved in the details of the previous investigations but clearly
0:11:00 > 0:11:03they found that there were problems which needed to be addressed at
0:11:03 > 0:11:06AWEMA and it would appear that those same problems have emerged
0:11:06 > 0:11:10yet again, so I think the Welsh government will have some questions
0:11:10 > 0:11:13to answer. Now is not the time to challenge them over those issues.
0:11:13 > 0:11:18We have to await the outcome of the current investigation before we do
0:11:18 > 0:11:21that. Does it raise any wider concerns in your view about the
0:11:21 > 0:11:27efficacy of oversight in general or bodies in Wales which spend public
0:11:27 > 0:11:30money? I think that there are questions that can be asked about
0:11:30 > 0:11:34how money is being spent in Wales and an awful lot is given to
0:11:34 > 0:11:39organisations across the country by grants and we have to make sure
0:11:39 > 0:11:41that we get value for money for every pound that is spent,
0:11:41 > 0:11:45particularly in these very difficult economic times in terms
0:11:45 > 0:11:48of the finances that are available in the public sector and members of
0:11:48 > 0:11:51the public will be looking very closely at the outcome of the
0:11:51 > 0:11:55investigation to AWEMA to see whether there are any lessons that
0:11:55 > 0:12:00need to be learned. Darren Millar, thank you for joining us. Thank you.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03All eyes have been on Scotland this week after Alex Salmond, the First
0:12:03 > 0:12:10Minister, published a consultation document outlining his plans for
0:12:10 > 0:12:12the independence referendum to be least that is what the Scottish
0:12:12 > 0:12:15government wants to hold it. The UK government is still questioning why
0:12:15 > 0:12:20the boat can't take place sooner. That is not the only point of
0:12:20 > 0:12:24difference between the two sides. Brian Meechan has spent the week in
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Edinburgh. We know there will be a referendum.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29The question the Scottish government wants to ask is a simple
0:12:29 > 0:12:33one. Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country
0:12:34 > 0:12:43and that is where the complications really begin. This week has been a
0:12:44 > 0:12:44
0:12:44 > 0:12:48prologue to the unfolding It is a centuries-old tradition.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52Burns Night celebrates not only the bursting of the cost Scottish Bard
0:12:52 > 0:12:56but the country itself. Poetry and music accompany haggis and whisky
0:12:56 > 0:12:59at events across the globe including this Edinburgh bar. It is
0:12:59 > 0:13:03no coincidence that on this most Scottish of days the SNP government
0:13:03 > 0:13:06launched its plans to hold a referendum on independence. The
0:13:06 > 0:13:12First Minister even made reference to a Burns's poem in his statement
0:13:12 > 0:13:16to MSPs. Perhaps they should be reminded that burns' great hymn to
0:13:16 > 0:13:26equality has been aired in this Parliament before. A man is a man
0:13:26 > 0:13:29
0:13:29 > 0:13:34for all that, in 1999. Hundreds worship at his word. For all that
0:13:34 > 0:13:39and all that, the man of independent mind looks and laughs
0:13:39 > 0:13:49at all that. At West minster even David Cameron mentioned Burns's'
0:13:49 > 0:13:54work. Perhaps they should remember Burns's' words. Oh what a panic in
0:13:54 > 0:13:58your breast. Alex Salmond pound -- found time to Spar with the Prime
0:13:58 > 0:14:01Minister over his grasp of it. are perfectly willing to offer a
0:14:01 > 0:14:11friendly gesture elocution lessons on pronunciation if that would
0:14:11 > 0:14:13
0:14:13 > 0:14:19Waverley station in Edinburgh is the main entry point to the capital
0:14:19 > 0:14:26by rail. It is named after a novel by the international event Scottish
0:14:26 > 0:14:30has a morning at on Princes Street. He is credited as the man who
0:14:30 > 0:14:34invented Scotland, popularising many myths along the way. But he's
0:14:35 > 0:14:39been overlooked in his own homeland. In terms of when Scotland is
0:14:39 > 0:14:45talking about itself, water scored his left out. There is a sense in
0:14:45 > 0:14:49which, as a unionist and a Tory, he cannot be integrated into the story.
0:14:49 > 0:14:54So what has caught is dismissed as having a romanticised view of
0:14:54 > 0:14:59Scotland, draped in tartan. Some argue that even to this day, there
0:14:59 > 0:15:04remains a nostalgia and myth that is wrapped up in the current
0:15:04 > 0:15:07political climate. It is not a view that the shared by all. There was a
0:15:07 > 0:15:10rule that Alex Salmond would have is referendum on the date of the
0:15:10 > 0:15:14Battle of Bannockburn. But of course he has not, he has gone
0:15:14 > 0:15:18beyond that. Scotland has gone be on the haggis and kills and all the
0:15:18 > 0:15:25rest of it. Robert Burns is the national poet, that is allowed, but
0:15:25 > 0:15:29kills and haggis is not any longer be a factor. It is for tourists.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33The Scottish National Party like to flaunt their nationalist
0:15:33 > 0:15:38credentials and play on Scotland and Robert Burns, but that is not
0:15:38 > 0:15:43central to the campaign. It is the economy, stupid, when it comes to
0:15:43 > 0:15:47Scotland. They will centre the campaign on their claim that
0:15:47 > 0:15:51Scotland will be better off a economically, if Independent.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56so waters caught's supporters accept he had a particular view of
0:15:56 > 0:15:59the country. He created an identity for Scottish people that would go
0:15:59 > 0:16:05global. People recognise Scotland internationally through the
0:16:05 > 0:16:10Waverley novels. It is a great boon, but it is also a customs up every
0:16:10 > 0:16:14time you see Scrooge make DUP, you have Watters caught to that of
0:16:14 > 0:16:20additional scores and as tight fitted -- tight fisted,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23parsimonious, slightly intellectual, so that is a mixed blessing.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Watters court was not a critical to battle with London. He took on the
0:16:26 > 0:16:32UK Treasury when they tried to abolish Scottish back rows, and he
0:16:32 > 0:16:42won. Perhaps a useful lesson for another Scot in his dealings with
0:16:42 > 0:16:46the UK jazz well over the economy. Would an independent Scotland be
0:16:46 > 0:16:51able to use sterling? The UK government was a bit silly in
0:16:51 > 0:16:55saying that it was not able to use the Prime. It is not be a gift,
0:16:55 > 0:17:01either way. Once we get past these debates on process, that is when,
0:17:01 > 0:17:08hopefully, we will see deeper debates on the substance of what
0:17:08 > 0:17:11independence would include. cause will be asked in autumn 2014
0:17:11 > 0:17:15whether they want independence. The Scottish government has also
0:17:15 > 0:17:18decided to consult on whether there should be the second question
0:17:18 > 0:17:24offering substantially more powers for Holyrood, including over income
0:17:24 > 0:17:29tax and welfare, but remaining in the UK. My gut instinct tells we
0:17:29 > 0:17:32will end up with one question but Alex Salmond are such a canny
0:17:32 > 0:17:36politician that I would not rule it out completely, and it would be a
0:17:36 > 0:17:41civil auction for him. Ahead of announcing his plans, Alex Salmond
0:17:41 > 0:17:46went to the Scottish storytelling Centre, where children listen to
0:17:46 > 0:17:51the famous Robert Burns's poem, Tam Roshan do. The Prime Minister --
0:17:51 > 0:17:55the First Minister wants to lower the voting age to allow 16 and 17-
0:17:55 > 0:18:00year-olds to cast their ballot. That is opposed by UK ministers.
0:18:00 > 0:18:06There have been protests from one expatriate but only scores living
0:18:06 > 0:18:10board. Supporters court is being credited as the man who sold the
0:18:10 > 0:18:15union and the monarchy to this cause, and Scotland and the Sports
0:18:15 > 0:18:19to the world. As the international independence this week it would be
0:18:19 > 0:18:24interesting to know what the man himself would have made of it.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29had an idea about justice and how the country should enter react. He
0:18:29 > 0:18:33would be asking why we still do not have an answer to the west Lothian
0:18:33 > 0:18:37question. At the moment, there is unfairness, built into the union,
0:18:37 > 0:18:42and that is towards England, not Scotland. It could potentially make
0:18:42 > 0:18:46things more difficult for Wales within a UK context, of Scotland
0:18:46 > 0:18:52were to become an independent country. It might make it more
0:18:52 > 0:18:59difficult to have a voice for the devolved administrations. The there
0:18:59 > 0:19:04will, no doubt, be more unexpected turns in the plot, as Scotland
0:19:04 > 0:19:07raced s you story, I head. My thanks to the council and the
0:19:08 > 0:19:12Writers' Museum for electing us do some filming with then. I am joined
0:19:12 > 0:19:16by a few men who have written more than a few chapters on Scottish
0:19:16 > 0:19:22politics, Brian Taylor, the political editor of BBC Scotland,
0:19:22 > 0:19:28and Brian Cochrane. There is no coincidence that this was launched
0:19:28 > 0:19:35on Burns Night. One of the people will look at was supporters caught,
0:19:35 > 0:19:40who created a Scottish identity, probably more than most, but...
0:19:40 > 0:19:48was accused of inventing a fictional Scotland. I am a huge fan
0:19:48 > 0:19:55of supporters court. He was a great writer. Also he had a great talent
0:19:55 > 0:19:59for poetry. There are two lines that are apposite, for this, first,
0:19:59 > 0:20:03what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive. I
0:20:03 > 0:20:08would not accuse politicians of line, but this issue of cultural
0:20:08 > 0:20:12identity is at the core of this. The sense of being Scottish is a
0:20:12 > 0:20:16given in Scotland, across the political divide. Nobody disputes
0:20:16 > 0:20:23that. It is whether that requires independence to thrive, or whether
0:20:23 > 0:20:28it can thrive within a devolved structure within the United Kingdom.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32A tangled web, this is becoming ever more tangled. It is not a
0:20:32 > 0:20:37simple yes-no answer to independence. The First Minister
0:20:37 > 0:20:44Alex Salmond is presenting it as a simple question but first of all,
0:20:44 > 0:20:48it is not legal, and people say that he wants to get. There is a
0:20:48 > 0:20:52long way to go on the wording of the question and even to make it
0:20:52 > 0:20:57legal. We have never had the problem in Scotland with identity.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01We're all Scottish. With a nationalist, Unionist, Labour or
0:21:01 > 0:21:05whatever. We do not have the language problem that the Welsh
0:21:06 > 0:21:11have, not really. There are only 60,000 native Gaelic speakers. That
0:21:11 > 0:21:16is not an issue in Scotland. With a were nationalists or Unionists is a
0:21:16 > 0:21:21big issue. We have this rather odd constitutional second question that
0:21:21 > 0:21:30is being talked about. In practical terms, how can that work? What
0:21:30 > 0:21:38happened if you add 51% going for independence and 75% going for Devo
0:21:38 > 0:21:48Max? It would have to be done as a paving question saying, do you want
0:21:48 > 0:21:54
0:21:54 > 0:22:03a change at all, and if you do, do you want independence or do you
0:22:03 > 0:22:09when they should be seen as competing. It is likely to gain the
0:22:09 > 0:22:12question because that is the one that the UK Government will give
0:22:12 > 0:22:17the endorsement do. Alex Salmond, you can almost hear him saying that
0:22:17 > 0:22:21my rivals prevented you, the Scottish people, from having the
0:22:21 > 0:22:27wider opportunity of dealing with all the options on the ballot paper.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31I wanted to give it to you. But, eventually, we will come down to a
0:22:31 > 0:22:37ballot in 2014 and they think it will be a yes-no choice on
0:22:37 > 0:22:40independence but we are very far from that point, right now. Alex
0:22:40 > 0:22:46Salmond is known as a master tactician. Is this another tactic
0:22:46 > 0:22:49on his part to say that we are not getting let to do what you want to
0:22:50 > 0:22:53do by London? He has his excuses already. He knows he will lose on
0:22:53 > 0:22:57the independence question so he wants two questions. This has been
0:22:57 > 0:23:03going on since we were board in short trousers, and the opinion
0:23:03 > 0:23:07polls have hardly moved. About 30% support independence, it has never
0:23:07 > 0:23:11moved in 40 years. I suspect it will not move after another two-
0:23:12 > 0:23:15and-a-half years of debate. He has got his excuses ready. He wants the
0:23:15 > 0:23:23second question as a consolation prize but he is not going to get it,
0:23:23 > 0:23:30and that is the line in the sand, the red line, yon Bitch -- beyond
0:23:30 > 0:23:33which no one will go. One of the things we have seen is this dispute
0:23:33 > 0:23:37with the UK Government about the currency goes of George Osborne
0:23:37 > 0:23:42said that Scotland would not be allowed to use sterling. They
0:23:42 > 0:23:50cannot stop that from happening. Alex Salmond has made that point
0:23:50 > 0:23:52rather vigorously, that sterling is a tradable currency. There are 67
0:23:53 > 0:23:59nations that are either in a monetary union or informal
0:23:59 > 0:24:04relations. The bigger issue is of course the Bank of England would be
0:24:04 > 0:24:14determining interest rates were Scotland. That issue was harder
0:24:14 > 0:24:17
0:24:17 > 0:24:22that Holyrood today. -- was hammered out at Holyrood. Of course,
0:24:23 > 0:24:26this is not just a question for Scotland. It has a massive impact
0:24:26 > 0:24:36on the governors of the UK as a whole, including Wales.
0:24:36 > 0:24:43understand why people in Wales are concerned, especially about Devo
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Max. I think the straightforward independence question will be lost
0:24:47 > 0:24:56by the nationalists. But all the parts of the UK need to worry about
0:24:56 > 0:25:06the second part. What happens if we get Devo Max and Alex Salmond guess
0:25:06 > 0:25:16it'll 0.5% corporation tax? Do we have different corporation tax all
0:25:16 > 0:25:16
0:25:16 > 0:25:19about? Alex Salmond is keen to form a tripartite alliance with Wales
0:25:19 > 0:25:25and Northern Ireland when it comes to putting pressure a London. The
0:25:25 > 0:25:28situation in Scotland would be used by Carwyn Jones, has a lever to
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Prize Model of concessions for the good and sensible people of Wales.
0:25:33 > 0:25:38We see that are already starting to happen. Thank you both. That is
0:25:38 > 0:25:45pretty much it from Edinburgh for now at least. I suspect we will be
0:25:45 > 0:25:51-- we will be back talking about this up until autumn, 2014. We go
0:25:51 > 0:25:54speak to our political editor about that. I like the random bursts of
0:25:55 > 0:26:04applause going on in the background there. I think we should have this
0:26:04 > 0:26:09in the studio you, it would be encouraging! -- the studio, here.
0:26:09 > 0:26:15What has gone on in Scotland has affected the debate between the
0:26:15 > 0:26:20countries. Yes, it was interesting to here E.ON Jones saying that it
0:26:20 > 0:26:23will become leader and week when in 2016 and Twenty20, that should be
0:26:23 > 0:26:30enough of a trigger to have a referendum on independence in Wales,
0:26:30 > 0:26:35too. David Ellis Thomas responded by saying that there is no point in
0:26:35 > 0:26:39having that in 10, 15 or 20 years' time, get on with the job, use the
0:26:39 > 0:26:45powers we have got now, and then deliver those sort of things
0:26:45 > 0:26:49afterwards. The battle is certainly going to heat up. What is happening
0:26:49 > 0:26:54in Scotland is bound to have some sort of effect. We will talk about
0:26:54 > 0:26:59how the leadership race this shipping up in a second. It is a
0:26:59 > 0:27:02difficult question to answer, so forgive me, but, is what is going
0:27:02 > 0:27:07on as Gordon going to make it easier for the winning candidate in
0:27:07 > 0:27:11the Nationalist Party of Wales or will they suffer by comparison?
0:27:11 > 0:27:16will be difficult just by comparison. Alex Salmond is winning
0:27:16 > 0:27:19prizes left, right and centre. What you heard yesterday was that he was
0:27:19 > 0:27:25going to the bigger stroke of luck to pull this off but you did not
0:27:25 > 0:27:30bet against Alex Salmond. And nationalist leader in Wales could
0:27:30 > 0:27:35suffer by comparison unless they can land the same sort of punches.
0:27:35 > 0:27:40But they would not be leaving at a stagnant time. Their job would be
0:27:40 > 0:27:43to make sure that things land and the right places, for Wales. What
0:27:43 > 0:27:49about the state of the leadership race itself know that nominations
0:27:49 > 0:27:54are close? We have four candidates, and we kept a living in hope that
0:27:54 > 0:27:58something would happen. Four very different personalities. Four
0:27:58 > 0:28:03people who will take the party in different directions, to the left,
0:28:03 > 0:28:07perhaps back into coalition with Labour, towards independence,
0:28:07 > 0:28:13towards more consensual politics. It is a real choice and not just
0:28:13 > 0:28:17because they are all very different people. The party wants this to get
0:28:17 > 0:28:24out to the hustings, and for people to discuss this, so that when the
0:28:24 > 0:28:29new leader is elected, in March, things can move on. I wonder if the