:03:32. > :03:38.Gym membership worth more than �2,000. Rugby and cricket tickets
:03:38. > :03:41.worth �800. The Chief Executive's parking fine costing �110. Just
:03:41. > :03:46.some of the things your money was being used for at Awema, a charity
:03:46. > :03:56.which was supposed to promote equality and diversity. This is
:03:56. > :04:02.
:04:02. > :04:08.Good evening. Conflicts of interest that included a father voting on
:04:08. > :04:12.his daughter's pay rise from �20,000 in 2008 to �50,000 today.
:04:12. > :04:14.Irregular and infrequent board meetings. A failure to meet
:04:14. > :04:19.statutory deadlines for filing accounts with Companies House and
:04:19. > :04:21.the Charity Commission. These things and more have led to the
:04:21. > :04:23.Welsh Government's report into allegations of financial
:04:23. > :04:25.irregularities at Awema, Wales' leading ethnic minority
:04:25. > :04:28.organisation, to comment that failings in control and governance
:04:28. > :04:31.within Awema permeated the whole of the organisation and suggest that
:04:31. > :04:41.the trustees, including the CEO Naz Malik, had little regard to the
:04:41. > :04:45.
:04:45. > :04:48.Tonight, the organisation's Chair Rita Austin said the Awema Board
:04:48. > :04:58.would carry out its responsibility to manage an orderly exit for the
:04:58. > :05:05.
:05:05. > :05:11.He is the race relations charity boss who is at the centre of a
:05:11. > :05:18.massive row. This is the third week we have been looking at the
:05:18. > :05:24.situation that has seen All Wales Ethnic Minority Association's
:05:24. > :05:31.funding suspended. There were serious concerns over bullying and
:05:31. > :05:38.financial mismanagement. There were concerns with the financial
:05:38. > :05:43.controls in the charity. I will be passing a copy of the report to the
:05:43. > :05:48.Assembly. Today, we saw the report looking at the financial management
:05:48. > :05:58.of the charity. It said they were unable to concern whether public
:05:58. > :05:59.
:05:59. > :06:06.funding that Awema had received was utilised for the purposes it had
:06:06. > :06:16.been provided for. Also, there were serious shortcomings and failings
:06:16. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.in governments and financial management. We do not want to
:06:21. > :06:24.prejudice the work of the Audit Office. They have accepted they
:06:25. > :06:33.will undertake this review and it is important they are left to get
:06:33. > :06:43.on with it. But people want to know if we Art emanating funding and we
:06:43. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:50.are. Last week, we reported how Awema's lawyers had advised that
:06:50. > :06:58.Naz Malik should be suspended. The chair just gave him a written
:06:58. > :07:04.warning. When I got into the chair, we looked at the solicitor's advice
:07:04. > :07:08.and we did give it consideration. By you dismissed it in the end?
:07:08. > :07:14.don't think it is fair to say we dismissed it. You chose not to
:07:14. > :07:20.follow? I chose not to follow that aspect of it. Over the years and
:07:20. > :07:27.despite complaints and allegations and investigations into Awema and
:07:27. > :07:36.its chief executive Naz Malik, they continued to receive public money,
:07:36. > :07:44.nearly a million pounds. So now, other bodies representing ethnic
:07:44. > :07:47.minorities are asking how Awema have continued to be funded. The
:07:47. > :07:56.South East Wales Racial Equality Council and does not receive money
:07:56. > :08:00.from Awema, but does similar work. I am not sure what Awema has done
:08:00. > :08:07.in my area. I do get a lot of clients coming in to ask for help
:08:07. > :08:12.and support in things which Awema is there to provide and I know I
:08:12. > :08:18.have at times cent people down there. Some of them have come back
:08:18. > :08:28.to me and said, can you provide the support because the support here is
:08:28. > :08:32.what they require. So that is something else that should be
:08:32. > :08:40.looked at. Certainly, some of the work has been duplicated. What
:08:41. > :08:48.could happen next? Well, Wales's for equality councils receive money
:08:48. > :08:55.from Awema. They should now take over the work of Awema. Others say
:08:55. > :09:01.they are worried about the situation at Awema affecting other
:09:01. > :09:07.charities. There is a feeling that, here we go again, and it should not
:09:07. > :09:13.be the case in terms of lumping all black organisations and individuals
:09:13. > :09:18.to get her. Yes, I am generalising, but the nature of it, as I said, is
:09:18. > :09:24.taking this for what it is and it is not about black individuals or
:09:24. > :09:28.black organisations who cannot manage. There are many examples
:09:28. > :09:33.where organisations and individuals are making valuable contributions
:09:33. > :09:37.and that should be recognised. weeks ago when we first approached
:09:37. > :09:43.Naz Malik for an interview, he said it would not be appropriate for him
:09:43. > :09:47.to comment was awash government was still investigating. Well, that
:09:47. > :09:51.report is published today, but Naz Malik has been instructed not to
:09:51. > :09:57.conduct an interview. We tried to catch him on his way to work, but
:09:57. > :10:03.he has not turned up. The serious failings at Awema had been a shock
:10:03. > :10:13.to many, but those who have worked there over the years, it was no
:10:13. > :10:14.
:10:14. > :10:19.surprise. What people are concerned with now is what will happen to
:10:19. > :10:23.beat community that Awema was set up to help?
:10:23. > :10:25.Arwyn Jones reporting. As you saw in his report, among the many other
:10:25. > :10:29.inquiries now underway is one looking at the historical funding
:10:29. > :10:31.of Awema by the Welsh Government. It was nine years ago that Dragon's
:10:31. > :10:33.Eye first broke the story of allegations of financial
:10:33. > :10:36.irregularities and bullying at the organisation. After that a review
:10:36. > :10:39.was commissioned by the then Social Justice Minister Edwina Hart. It
:10:39. > :10:42.recommended in 2004 that funding for new projects be stopped until
:10:42. > :10:44.procedures were tightened up. It wasn't. In 2007 the then Chair
:10:44. > :10:47.resigned after writing to the Welsh Government alleging financial
:10:47. > :10:55.malpractice. Kirsty Williams is the leader of the Welsh Liberal
:10:55. > :11:02.Democrats. What is your reaction to today's
:11:02. > :11:10.report? I am shocked by that comment. It is a damning indictment
:11:10. > :11:18.of how taxpayers' money was spent by this organisation. Why did Welsh
:11:18. > :11:24.ministers allow this to continued, despite warnings over the years?
:11:24. > :11:30.That was not the function of this report. It makes clear that Awema
:11:30. > :11:37.is not a Welsh government-sponsored body and it is not within the remit
:11:37. > :11:41.of the report to examine the Welsh government's response. It was not
:11:41. > :11:48.the responsibility of the report to establish that, but it demonstrates
:11:48. > :11:53.that the concerns been raised in 2004 and 2007 when not acted upon
:11:53. > :11:57.by Welsh ministers. Instead, despite warnings not to give the
:11:57. > :12:00.organisation more money, the Welsh government poured money into this
:12:00. > :12:10.organisation without carrying out the appropriate checks that the
:12:10. > :12:10.
:12:10. > :12:14.money was being spent wisely. We need answers from ministers. Why
:12:14. > :12:20.did they ignore independent advice and warnings from people who had
:12:20. > :12:25.experience of this organisation? Why were they ignored, why did
:12:25. > :12:32.money go to this organisation from beat Watch government and why did
:12:32. > :12:36.the government not check it was getting good value for money?
:12:36. > :12:40.government did commission the Audit Office to look into the history of
:12:40. > :12:46.the funding of Awema, so it seems they are trying to get to the
:12:46. > :12:51.bottom of it. It is a bit like shutting the stable door before --
:12:51. > :13:01.after the horse has bolted. The government was warned about giving
:13:01. > :13:06.
:13:06. > :13:13.money to this organisation. Both in 2004 and 2007. It is a bit rich now
:13:13. > :13:18.for Jane Hutt to be sent at this late stage after a �0.4 million of
:13:18. > :13:23.taxpayers' money has been spent, that they are taking this situation
:13:23. > :13:26.seriously. What do you want to happen now? We need clear answers
:13:26. > :13:34.from the Welsh government. It is clear to me that what they are
:13:34. > :13:38.doing, publishing a report at 4pm on the Thursday, they are not
:13:38. > :13:42.coming forward with the answers that are needed. I want to know
:13:42. > :13:47.what happened in the Welsh Assembly government to ignore warnings over
:13:47. > :13:53.many years about this organisation? Why did they not take it seriously
:13:53. > :13:58.and act sooner and why did they allow this situation to develop? At
:13:58. > :14:02.best it was negligence. At worst it is time to look at the interesting
:14:02. > :14:06.connections between the Welsh Assembly ministers, this
:14:06. > :14:11.organisation and membership of the Labour Party. And where do you
:14:11. > :14:16.stand in terms of your view of what happened and the reasons for it?
:14:16. > :14:20.best, it is negligence on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government, but
:14:20. > :14:25.now we need some clear answers from the Welsh ministers about why they
:14:25. > :14:29.did not at previously. They cannot continue to hide behind
:14:29. > :14:32.investigations and saying they cannot comment. We need clarity
:14:32. > :14:37.about why the Welsh ministers did not act when they had the
:14:37. > :14:42.opportunity. Where does the responsibility lie in your view?
:14:42. > :14:52.Ultimately, with the Welsh Assembly government. Some of them were at
:14:52. > :14:53.
:14:53. > :15:02.the table in 2,000 form and continue to sit around be -- in
:15:02. > :15:06.2004 and continued to sit around the Cabinet table. I welcome the
:15:06. > :15:10.fact the Welsh Audit Office is looking into this matter, but it is
:15:10. > :15:15.not sustainable for ministers to hide behind investigations. We need
:15:15. > :15:18.clarity about why the government did not act to protect Welsh
:15:18. > :15:22.taxpayers' money and the interest of the communities that this
:15:22. > :15:27.charity claimed to be representing. Should there be a debate over this?
:15:27. > :15:31.We absolutely need one and a clear answer from the ministers. It is
:15:31. > :15:37.not good enough to publish this report before an Assembly recess
:15:37. > :15:40.and hope it will go away. It is too serious for that. Thank you.
:15:40. > :15:42.For the third week in a row we asked the Welsh Government to
:15:43. > :15:45.provide a minister to be interviewed on Dragon's Eye about
:15:45. > :15:47.the way they have handled the situation at Awema. They declined,
:15:48. > :15:50.explaining that the Equalities Minister Jane Hutt was providing
:15:51. > :15:53.one single interview for all media outlets. You saw her in Arwyn's
:15:53. > :15:55.report. I'm joined now by two leading
:15:55. > :15:57.members of other organisations working with our diverse
:15:57. > :15:59.communities - David Phillips from South East Wales Racial Equality
:15:59. > :16:09.Council and Michael Flynn from Black Voluntary Sector Network
:16:09. > :16:12.
:16:13. > :16:22.Wales. Welcome to the programme. What is your reaction to the report,
:16:23. > :16:26.
:16:26. > :16:32.First, we are very relieved that we've had the report published. My
:16:32. > :16:36.initial reaction to the content is quite devastating really for the
:16:36. > :16:38.organisation involved. For us we are just happy that we've come to a
:16:38. > :16:43.resolution, really happy that Jane Hutt made a statement today
:16:43. > :16:46.regarding the funding. We are just hoping that we can move on as soon
:16:46. > :16:51.as possible and engage in real conversation with the Government to
:16:51. > :16:56.help them move on with this. those views that you share, David
:16:56. > :16:59.Phillips? Yes they are. We've been worried about the impact of this
:16:59. > :17:03.ongoing saga for the reputation of the qualities sector in general. It
:17:03. > :17:11.is good to have a resolution. It is not good that they found that there
:17:11. > :17:14.were so many things amiss. In terms of the role of Awema, it was an
:17:14. > :17:18.umbrella organisation that sent funding to organisations around
:17:18. > :17:23.Walesment neither of your oorgss in recent times received money from
:17:23. > :17:27.Awema. But can you give an idea of the projects that are going on up
:17:27. > :17:31.and down Wales that Awema funding may have gone into? Most of the
:17:31. > :17:35.projects would have provided services or training opportunities,
:17:35. > :17:39.the sorts of things that would help people from disadvantaged
:17:39. > :17:45.backgrounds to be able to play on a more level playing field. It could
:17:45. > :17:49.have been supported learning, job skills, it could have been a whole
:17:49. > :17:53.range of things around education, confidence building. Those sorts of
:17:53. > :17:58.things. What sort of things does your organisation do? It is
:17:58. > :18:03.important to differentiate between the Awema situation and this report
:18:03. > :18:06.and the damning content of what it contains. With the realistic and
:18:06. > :18:09.good work carried out by the organisations, the grass roots
:18:09. > :18:13.organisations throughout the country, who are providing great
:18:13. > :18:18.services to vulnerable people throughout the country... Can you
:18:18. > :18:23.give me an idea what sort of services? In terms of the kind of
:18:23. > :18:26.things that your organisation does. For example David has given us an
:18:26. > :18:30.idea. We are called the Black Voluntary Sector Network Wales and
:18:30. > :18:37.we help to support and represent issues for grass roots level to a
:18:37. > :18:41.ministerial level that BME people may face. We help the Welsh
:18:41. > :18:43.Assembly Government develop policies and see how they impact on
:18:43. > :18:47.different communities across qualities throughout the country.
:18:47. > :18:51.We want to make sure that everyone in Wales has a chance to
:18:51. > :18:57.participate in service provision and opportunities available to them.
:18:57. > :19:03.So important work for giving voices to people who sometimes
:19:03. > :19:06.historically haven't had much of a voice, David. How damaging is the
:19:06. > :19:10.controversy over Awema have the allegations been to that work?
:19:10. > :19:17.has been very damaging, but the fact that over the last three weeks
:19:17. > :19:20.we've had the Welsh Government act in reasonably decisively I hope
:19:20. > :19:24.that means we can draw a line under this. And the partners within the
:19:24. > :19:28.European projects will be able to come together and work together to
:19:28. > :19:31.share the load of taking that project forward. And in the future
:19:31. > :19:36.that the Welsh Assembly Government will look to a wider range of
:19:36. > :19:40.partners. I think one of the weaknesses has been that the Welsh
:19:40. > :19:46.Government relied on one organisation as the main conduit
:19:46. > :19:50.into the BME communities. There are a large number of BME community
:19:50. > :19:53.organisations that can play a part in being that conduit, people on
:19:53. > :19:56.the ground with those connections. That's an interesting point. What
:19:56. > :20:00.should happen to the European funding that has been going to
:20:00. > :20:06.organisations? How should that be channelled now It is important that
:20:06. > :20:14.they carry on with that fund sog that the organisations that are --
:20:14. > :20:18.fund sog that the organisations that are involved get the money
:20:18. > :20:21.from Awema. We wouldn't want to go back to Brussels. Wales doesn't get
:20:21. > :20:26.enough European money, in my opinion. I don't think there's a
:20:26. > :20:30.single organisation that could step in and take over or that would want
:20:30. > :20:34.to. Forgive me for interrupting, but Michael, would you share the
:20:34. > :20:38.points perhaps about the structure, that using one organisation to
:20:38. > :20:45.filter money through hasn't been the best way to do things anyway?
:20:45. > :20:48.There are really good organisations large and small within the country.
:20:48. > :20:52.There are regional equality networks, new and up and coming
:20:52. > :20:56.organisations who should be part of that process. I'm grateful to you
:20:56. > :20:59.both for coming on to the programme. Thank you.
:20:59. > :21:02.The three opposition parties in the Assembly are calling on the Welsh
:21:02. > :21:04.Government to publish details of its meetings with lobbyists. The UK
:21:04. > :21:07.Government, which already does this, is now also consulting on whether
:21:07. > :21:10.there should be a legal register of people seeking to influence
:21:10. > :21:12.Ministers. There are calls for that to cover Wales, as concerns
:21:12. > :21:22.increase that Cardiff Bay is already falling behind Westminster
:21:22. > :21:33.
:21:33. > :21:37.and Whitehall in openness and In Britain lobbying has been called
:21:37. > :21:41.a �2 billion industry. Its supporters say it is about
:21:41. > :21:45.improving policy and legislation. Its critics have other ideas.
:21:45. > :21:51.Lobbyists are not adding to the knowledge of Parliament. Their role
:21:51. > :21:56.is parasitic. They are living off Parliament. And they are hear to
:21:56. > :22:01.sell their talents and persuasive tal tonight the highest bidder. It
:22:01. > :22:07.is about money. This is Central Lobby, the heart of Parliament.
:22:07. > :22:10.Members of the public can meet their MPs here even without an
:22:10. > :22:14.appointment. There are real concerns about the growing
:22:14. > :22:19.Battalion of professional lobbyists and their impact on the political
:22:19. > :22:22.process. It is the next big scandal waiting to happen. I'm talking
:22:22. > :22:26.about lobbying... These gates may keep the public out of Downing
:22:26. > :22:30.Street, but what about the lobbyists? In December a former
:22:30. > :22:34.Conservative MP was secretly recorded boasting he had access to
:22:34. > :22:39.the very heart of Government. A claim denied by Downing Street.
:22:39. > :22:45.Many lobbyists say the industry has to change. I think the time has
:22:45. > :22:50.come for statutory regulation. We've always voluntarily disclosed
:22:50. > :22:55.our client and been on the voluntary register, but I think
:22:55. > :22:58.public trust is so low in our industry we have to have a
:22:58. > :23:02.statutory register. Many organisations want access to the
:23:02. > :23:05.core doors of power and are willing to pay for it. The consultation
:23:05. > :23:08.will look at how to define a lobbyist and what information
:23:08. > :23:11.should be gathered about them and their clients. There are questions
:23:11. > :23:15.over whether trade unions and charities should be included and
:23:15. > :23:20.whether we should be told how much companies spend on lobbying. The UK
:23:20. > :23:25.Government is also asking whether any new register should cover those
:23:25. > :23:28.lobbying the devolved Governments, including the Assembly. This is not
:23:28. > :23:32.just about Westminster. We need to have a proper debate about how we
:23:32. > :23:36.do this in a way that encourages people to be involved in the
:23:36. > :23:40.democratic process but ensures that it is open and transparent. It is
:23:40. > :23:43.something that could really increase people's trust in
:23:43. > :23:49.Government if we have more transparency and more information
:23:50. > :23:53.about the roles of these kinds of corporate often interests in the
:23:53. > :23:58.process. The Assembly in the Welsh Government currently set their own
:23:58. > :24:01.rules. Many want that to continue but argue Wales needs its own
:24:01. > :24:06.statutory register. We are in this building. Look at the glass. It is
:24:06. > :24:11.supposed to be transparent, but of course it's not. Until you are
:24:11. > :24:17.seeing where the Ministers, who the Ministers are meet manager, what
:24:17. > :24:22.organisations are pressing them, it is not open Government. This week
:24:22. > :24:27.Gareth Huws chaired a debate on the future of the media with visitors
:24:27. > :24:32.to the Senedd. He said when he previously raised the issue he
:24:32. > :24:35.received an anonymous call warning him it was none of his business.
:24:35. > :24:40.don't take these things seriously but there's a serious obvious
:24:40. > :24:48.message there, that these people don't want too see, you know, don't
:24:48. > :24:51.want the floodlights to open up on what they are doing. I think that's
:24:51. > :24:56.worrying. The UK Government publishes a list of all meetings
:24:56. > :24:58.its Ministers have with lobbyists. There is no similar list here. So
:24:58. > :25:01.while we could find out which organisations have met the
:25:02. > :25:05.Secretary of State for Wales we've had to use freedom of information
:25:05. > :25:09.laws to ask the same details about the First Minister of Wales. If you
:25:09. > :25:13.have nothing to hide, let us see what is going on behind the closed
:25:13. > :25:18.doors in the Welsh Government. If you have nothing to hide, you have
:25:18. > :25:23.nothing to fear. So go ahead and publish these mights, show us who
:25:23. > :25:28.you are meeting, let's get this register et up and see leadership
:25:28. > :25:30.on this issue. All three opposition parties now take the same stance.
:25:30. > :25:35.certainly think we should have a register of Lloyds Banking
:25:35. > :25:37.Groupists here in sweels that everything is above board and
:25:37. > :25:43.transparent. I think there's a legitimate reason as to why
:25:43. > :25:48.Government Ministers should record former meetings that they have with
:25:48. > :25:52.Lloyds Banking Groupists. Jonathan Morgan has gone through the so-
:25:52. > :25:56.called revolving door into the world of lobbying. We live in a
:25:56. > :25:59.small country. Wales is Tyney. I think if there were any public
:25:59. > :26:06.affairs officers or companies that were engaged in dodgy dealings,
:26:06. > :26:12.they would be found out pretty quickly. I think we've got a good
:26:12. > :26:16.self-regulating system in Cardiff. Since last year the Assembly can
:26:16. > :26:22.pass laws under health and education. With more powers will
:26:22. > :26:24.come more lobbyists. Any suggestion that the UK is leave Wales behind
:26:24. > :26:26.will concern many political observers.
:26:26. > :26:29.A Welsh Government spokesperson said: "Welsh Ministers are subject
:26:29. > :26:32.to the Ministerial Code - the principles of which are virtually
:26:32. > :26:34.identical to the Code which applies to UK Ministers. We would therefore
:26:34. > :26:37.carefully consider any new or revised guidelines produced by the
:26:37. > :26:43.UK Government in relation to lobbying, if we felt there was
:26:43. > :26:47.merit in applying it, or a version of it, here in Wales."
:26:47. > :26:53.I'm joined now by Nick Ramsay, chair of the Conservative group in
:26:53. > :26:57.the Assembly, and Dewi Knight from Public Affairs Cymru. Welcome to
:26:57. > :27:03.the programme. Dewi Knight, let's talk about what lobbying is first
:27:03. > :27:10.of all. You can give me an example of how it works. As a lobbyist what
:27:10. > :27:19.do you do? Lobbying or public affairs activities are integ troop
:27:19. > :27:26.the democratic space -- integral to the democratic space in Wales. We
:27:26. > :27:30.work with Assembly Ministers to provide better laws for Wales.
:27:30. > :27:33.you say better law, is it about representing the interests of a
:27:33. > :27:37.specific group, whether it is a charity or a private company? Are
:27:37. > :27:45.you trying to influence the Government to act in the way that
:27:45. > :27:48.they want? Well, as anyone would do. I work for a university that is
:27:48. > :27:57.interested in widening access today cation. We are trying to make that
:27:57. > :28:01.better for the country as a whole, so we have better access to
:28:01. > :28:04.education. I think it goes back to transparency. We've looked at the
:28:04. > :28:08.way the UK coalition Government is going, so that when the public have
:28:08. > :28:11.elected their politicians and those politicians have gone into
:28:11. > :28:16.government they can see how they are representing the views that
:28:16. > :28:21.they are. I don't see why we shouldn't go down that line in
:28:21. > :28:25.Wales. It is supposed to be a transparent decky, what have the
:28:25. > :28:29.Government got to hide. Dewi Knight, would you object to such a
:28:29. > :28:33.register? No, I want. The UK Government says it is going to
:28:33. > :28:38.consult with the devolved administrations and legislatures.
:28:38. > :28:47.I'm not aware there's been discussions with the Assembly
:28:47. > :28:51.commission or Government. We'll be keen to see perhaps the Wales-based
:28:51. > :28:55.register, we could take the lead. understand you have concerns about
:28:55. > :29:00.the approach that's being taken at a London level in terms of the
:29:00. > :29:04.distinguishing between commercial interests and charity interests?
:29:04. > :29:10.Public Affairs Cymru we don't make a distinction, whether they are
:29:10. > :29:14.charities, or commercial public affairs firms. In Wales we think
:29:14. > :29:18.everyone who is a lobbyist, whether a charity or commercial firm,
:29:18. > :29:22.should be expected to adhere to the same sort of conduct, so that AMs
:29:22. > :29:25.like Nick or Ministers are aware of how public affairs professionals
:29:25. > :29:30.should conduct themselves. That sounds fair enough, Nick Ramsay.
:29:31. > :29:37.Why isn't the Government in London doing this in a broader way? To be
:29:37. > :29:43.fair to Dewi and Public Affairs Cymru they are an excellent example
:29:43. > :29:49.of how public affairs can work. I hope this doesn't sound too
:29:49. > :29:53.negative to our lobbyists. Many of us as Assembly Members have a lot