:00:50. > :01:00.Tonight a live debate between the Plaid Cymru leadership candidates.
:01:00. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:09.Good evening. Happy St David's Day. The ballot papers have been sent to
:01:09. > :01:12.party members, the result will be tphoubsed -- announced in two weeks.
:01:12. > :01:17.Tonight the three remaining candidates in the leadership
:01:17. > :01:22.election tphr the Studio to explain why they want the job. Before we
:01:22. > :01:27.get into detailed discussion of their policies, let's hear a little
:01:27. > :01:31.about and and from each of them. The order was decided in random, we
:01:31. > :01:34.pulled their names out of a hessian weave bag for life. I am not sure
:01:34. > :01:37.whether it was organic. Welcome all of you and thank you very much for
:01:37. > :01:41.taking part in the programme this evening. We are going to watch a
:01:41. > :01:45.short film about each of you, after which you will each get 30 seconds
:01:45. > :01:48.to explain why you want the job and Dafydd Elis-Thomas, your name was
:01:48. > :01:53.out first. A former presiding officer of the
:01:53. > :01:58.Assembly, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas has a unique claim to fame, he is
:01:58. > :02:04.the only person to have been an MP, a Lord and AM. He is also a leader
:02:04. > :02:08.of the party previously. Now with a reputation as a sartorial country
:02:08. > :02:13.gent he has also been voted the best-dressed politician in Wales.
:02:13. > :02:18.Of the three candidates Lord Elis- Thomas has the fewest big name
:02:18. > :02:23.supporters, without a single AM or MP endorsing his can tkasy, his
:02:23. > :02:26.hope is that grass roots members like the cut of his jib, as well as
:02:26. > :02:31.his suits. In 30 seconds then, explain why you think you should be
:02:31. > :02:34.Plaid Cymru leader? Because I am supported by most of the leaders in
:02:34. > :02:39.Welsh local Government, because they see that the next main test
:02:39. > :02:42.for the party is that local Government election. Leadership is
:02:42. > :02:46.about communication and it's about meeting up challenges and we are in
:02:46. > :02:51.the most challenging time that Wales has ever been in, in economic
:02:51. > :02:57.terms, environmental terms and in terms of the constitution, the C-
:02:57. > :03:01.word which I enjoy using. Leanne Wood, your name was out of the bag
:03:01. > :03:06.second. Growing up in the valleys she was a relative unknown outside
:03:06. > :03:09.of Plaid circles, best known perhaps for being expelled from the
:03:09. > :03:13.Assembly's chamber in 2004 when she called the Queen Mrs Windsor, and
:03:13. > :03:19.refused to withdraw the remark. Elected to the Assembly for South
:03:19. > :03:22.Wales central in 2003 she was previously a probation officer and
:03:22. > :03:26.a councillor. Her campaign has the support of one of the party's most
:03:26. > :03:31.prominent figures, the former MP Adam Price, who says she speaks
:03:31. > :03:33.with a voice that reasonates across Wales. She will be hoping, first of
:03:33. > :03:40.all to reasonate with her party's members.
:03:40. > :03:43.So, Leanne Wood, in 30 seconds why you should be leader? I have said
:03:43. > :03:48.Plaid Cymru should prioritise a plan to turn around our
:03:48. > :03:52.disadvantaged economy, there should be a plan to build a social and
:03:52. > :03:59.sustainable economy which ensures that everybody who can work is able
:03:59. > :04:06.to work in a job. There are more detailed proposals found on the
:04:06. > :04:08.website, Leanne Wood 2012.Com. Finally, Elin Jones. She was the
:04:08. > :04:12.Rural Affairs Minister in the previous Labour Plaid Cymru
:04:12. > :04:16.coalition Government. Raised on a farm and with a Masters degree in
:04:16. > :04:20.rural economics she seemed well suited for the job. She's been the
:04:20. > :04:24.AM for Ceredigion since 1999 and before that was a councillor in
:04:24. > :04:28.Aberystwyth, welcoming -- becoming the town's youngest mayor. She
:04:28. > :04:33.sings in the town choir and was a member of a folk group. It was
:04:33. > :04:37.music to her ears when Simon Thomas decided to stand down and support
:04:37. > :04:41.her. But does she strike a chord with the members? Well, Elin Jones,
:04:41. > :04:45.finally, but last but not least we should say, in 30 seconds why
:04:45. > :04:49.should you be leader? I want to see Plaid Cymru as a modern 21st
:04:49. > :04:52.century political party that speaks to everybody in Wales, stands in
:04:52. > :04:56.elections in order to form a Government, and has an ambition to
:04:56. > :05:01.see Wales as a successful independent country. Our ambition
:05:01. > :05:05.for Wales is radical but our politics has to be relevant to
:05:05. > :05:09.everybody's everyday lives. I want to see Plaid Cymru put at the heart
:05:09. > :05:12.of our work transforming the Welsh economy, that's why I have a vision
:05:12. > :05:15.for our second industrial revolution in Wales that benefits
:05:15. > :05:20.the people of Wales this time. will leave it there, thank you very
:05:20. > :05:23.much. Let's talk in more detail about some of the issues that have
:05:23. > :05:27.emerged during the campaign. We will begin with an issue that's
:05:27. > :05:31.been hotly debated within this contest, independence. Today, an
:05:31. > :05:34.opinion poll commissioned by BBC Wales suggests that only 7% of the
:05:34. > :05:38.electorate supports full independence for Wales, although
:05:38. > :05:41.that figure rises to 12% if Scotland votes in favour in its
:05:41. > :05:46.forthcoming referendum. Well, Elin Jones, you have been insistent
:05:46. > :05:50.during the the campaign that the independence issue should be one of
:05:50. > :05:54.the issues right at the centre of the Plaid platform under your
:05:54. > :05:58.leadership. Is that what you regard as the party's unique selling point,
:05:58. > :06:02.as it were? Plaid Cymru's unique selling point is that it is
:06:02. > :06:07.uniquely a Welsh party with an ambition to see Wales become a
:06:07. > :06:11.successful independent country. The poll today was no great surprise to
:06:11. > :06:15.me, what was hugely encouraging about the poll was that we saw that
:06:15. > :06:18.people in Wales still want to see greater powers for the Assembly and
:06:18. > :06:23.especially two thirds of the people of Wales now want to see the
:06:23. > :06:29.Assembly have fiscal powers for the first time. I think ensuring that
:06:29. > :06:31.we have in Wales an Assembly, and a Government that has a fiscal powers
:06:31. > :06:35.as well as legislative pow certificates part of the building
:06:35. > :06:39.of our nation that I want to see happen day after day. Along the
:06:39. > :06:42.route ultimately to independence, a stepping stone f you like? Yes, of
:06:42. > :06:46.course. A clear ambition is to see Wales become a successful
:06:46. > :06:51.independent country. That's an ambition that you share, is that
:06:51. > :06:54.the key USP for Plaid for you? I think it is time that Plaid Cymru
:06:54. > :06:58.now puts independence at the forefront of our agenda. We have
:06:58. > :07:04.met a number of our short-term objectives. We have got legislation
:07:04. > :07:08.to protect the Welsh language. We passed a referendum this time last
:07:08. > :07:11.year for full law-making powers in the Assembly and all parties are
:07:11. > :07:16.united on the need for reforming the way that the Assembly is funded.
:07:17. > :07:20.So, it is time now for us to put our long-term constitutional goal
:07:20. > :07:24.right at the heart of what we do. I think we have got to build the
:07:24. > :07:28.economic case, this is the thing that people are most most concerned
:07:28. > :07:33.about, is how Wales it going to fare economically in the long-term,
:07:33. > :07:38.what's happened with the economic crisis since 2008 has changed
:07:38. > :07:41.politics and the way that we have to operate our politics and I think
:07:41. > :07:46.that focusing on the economy to build a case for independence is
:07:46. > :07:51.what Plaid Cymru needs to do next. You have been more sceptical of the
:07:51. > :07:57.cause for independence, explain your position? The people of Wales
:07:57. > :08:01.have, in my view, a right to self- determination, the idea belongs
:08:01. > :08:06.with Dr Richard Price to begin with. The people of Wales are exercising
:08:06. > :08:11.that right in every opinion poll and every election. I was delighted
:08:11. > :08:14.with this opinion poll because here we are now, as has been said, with
:08:14. > :08:18.people of Wales embracing what seems to be the logical conclusion
:08:18. > :08:23.of what we have been doing over the last 12 years, building up a
:08:23. > :08:29.National Assembly, ensuring that it had law-making powers, getting out
:08:29. > :08:33.of the mess Ron Davies created for us originally and now we are able
:08:33. > :08:36.to have proper legislative body, but also a body which potentially
:08:36. > :08:40.can have fiscal powers. One thing is very important to me, that
:08:40. > :08:44.decision will be taken in Wales t won't be taken by a silk commission
:08:44. > :08:50.in Westminster. Elin Jones, does the opinion poll worry you at all?
:08:50. > :08:53.7% in favour of full independence t suggests. If you are going to make
:08:53. > :08:57.independence a big issue, a central issue for Plaid, under your
:08:57. > :09:01.leadership, aren't you going to be banging a drum that very, very few
:09:01. > :09:06.of the electorate are interested in hearing? Well, the opinion poll
:09:06. > :09:10.didn't shock me in any way, there is a big challenge, a big piece of
:09:10. > :09:13.work for Plaid Cymru and others to do to make the case that Wales can
:09:13. > :09:17.become a successful independent country. Plaid Cymru hasn't been
:09:17. > :09:21.making that case really for the past few years. You are confident
:09:21. > :09:26.you can bring people along, that in time you can convince people of the
:09:26. > :09:30.argument and get the support? course we are. Because we have seen
:09:30. > :09:32.the support for greater powers for the Assembly, fiscal powers for the
:09:32. > :09:39.Assembly for the first time. We have seen that support growing over
:09:39. > :09:42.the past few years and today in this most recent poll two thirds of
:09:42. > :09:47.people supporting a form of fiscal powers for the National Assembly,
:09:47. > :09:52.that's a big change in Welsh opinion polling for the past - over
:09:52. > :09:55.the past ten years. That wouldn't have happened if Plaid Cymru hadn't
:09:55. > :10:00.been advocating greater fiscal powers or fiscal powers even for
:10:00. > :10:03.the National Assembly. Plaid Cymru not alone in that, though, Leanne
:10:03. > :10:08.Wood, and in the independence case the party very much alone in terms
:10:08. > :10:11.of the political landscape of Wales. How confident are you that you
:10:11. > :10:15.could raise interest in the independence issue above what is a
:10:15. > :10:19.low figure at the moment and how do you intend to do it, if you win?
:10:19. > :10:24.Well, Elin is right, we haven't put the case for an independent Wales
:10:25. > :10:29.yet. That case is yet to be put. But there's no reason why Wales
:10:29. > :10:33.couldn't be an independent nation. There's nothing inherently
:10:33. > :10:36.different about people in Wales that couldn't make a success. Every
:10:36. > :10:41.country in the world makes a success or otherwise of their
:10:41. > :10:45.economy by raising taxes and then spending in public expenditure. Our
:10:45. > :10:51.economy is weak. We need to make sure that we put more into the tax
:10:51. > :10:55.pot and we need to have proposals and plans to do that and once our
:10:55. > :11:00.books are nearer to balancing, we will be in a position to be able to
:11:00. > :11:04.independent. There is no reason why we can't be. Is there a danger in
:11:04. > :11:09.soft peddling on independence that you remove from Plaid Cymru the one
:11:09. > :11:12.thing that makes it unique in Welsh politics, and that is that it is
:11:12. > :11:17.the party of independence? If you think that's what Plaid is about
:11:17. > :11:21.then you are talking to the wrong person. What else is it about?
:11:21. > :11:25.all Welsh poll eubgs is about. -- politics is all about. We represent
:11:25. > :11:28.everything that's positive in terms of Wales. I have been a committed
:11:28. > :11:31.environmentalist, I have been particularly advocating throughout
:11:31. > :11:40.the years that the United Kingdom withdraws itself from all those
:11:40. > :11:42.international things that have created such disasters and lots of
:11:42. > :11:48.all those issues. If that's the case why has the party failed to
:11:48. > :11:51.achieve electoral success over the years? 2010 elections were very
:11:51. > :11:54.disappointing. The party has achieved huge success. We have
:11:54. > :11:57.helped create, not alone, but with our colleagues and other parties,
:11:58. > :12:01.we have created Welsh devolution and I am proud of it and proud of
:12:01. > :12:10.all the stuff that I did for that 12 years, determined that we should
:12:10. > :12:13.have a proper system in Wales. Plaid itself equally to post-
:12:13. > :12:17.devolution? This is the time when Plaid speaks from that platform and
:12:17. > :12:21.moves on in the context of what is happening to the United Kingdom and
:12:21. > :12:24.that's the bit that excites me. The United Kingdom is finished, the
:12:24. > :12:29.United Kingdom has no future. The old imperial states of Europe have
:12:29. > :12:34.had their day and it's about time they were put out to grass. But out
:12:34. > :12:37.of that has to come devolution for England, and it's up to the
:12:37. > :12:40.Scottish people what form they want. If Scotland decides to be an
:12:40. > :12:46.independent country, they may not be able to play rugby, but they
:12:46. > :12:51.might make a successful country, good luck to them. Elin Jones,
:12:51. > :12:55.surely what people are interested in at the moment is the economy.
:12:55. > :12:57.Independence is a side show. What people want to hear from the new
:12:57. > :13:02.leader, whoever that may be, is how you are going to create jobs, isn't
:13:02. > :13:05.it? I am interested in the economy. Wye say it's my top priority and it
:13:05. > :13:10.should be everybody's top priority, including the First Minister in
:13:10. > :13:13.Wales. Tell me what your plan is. Well, I want to see as
:13:13. > :13:18.fundamentally reform the Welsh economy, build it around our
:13:18. > :13:22.natural resources. We need to get the powers, the legislative powers,
:13:22. > :13:26.planning powers to do that in terms of our natural resources and also
:13:26. > :13:31.the fiscal powers to enable to us build our business sectors around
:13:31. > :13:36.our natural resources for the next 50 years. We have an abundance
:13:36. > :13:41.supply of renewable energy, of water in Wales, the key resources
:13:41. > :13:45.for any economy for the next 50 years. We need to be able to plan
:13:45. > :13:48.for our business and economic growth around those natural
:13:48. > :13:52.resources. But we have to have a Government with a political will to
:13:52. > :13:55.want to do that and that's what I would want Plaid Cymru to be.
:13:55. > :13:58.you have given me there is a wish list for further devolution. Are
:13:58. > :14:02.you saying to me that you cannot do anything to improve job prospects
:14:02. > :14:07.for Welsh voters unless you get further devolution? No, what I said
:14:07. > :14:11.there... What can you do here and now? What I said there, there are
:14:11. > :14:18.two fundamental issues. One is the weakness of the Welsh economy and
:14:18. > :14:21.how we plan for that over the next 20-30 years. We have seen UK
:14:21. > :14:24.macroeconomic planning plan for the city of London over the last 30
:14:24. > :14:27.years, that doesn't suit Wales and shouldn't be allowed to to continue.
:14:28. > :14:32.That's why I make the point about powers for planning the economy T
:14:32. > :14:37.needs to be Welsh-based economic planning. That makes a difference N
:14:38. > :14:41.terms of the recession now, it is absolutely the imperative for both
:14:41. > :14:48.Westminster governments and Labour Welsh Government to work together
:14:49. > :14:53.to ensure that our young people are not facing a lifetime of
:14:53. > :14:56.unemployment. We have 25% of our young people in unemployment. The
:14:56. > :15:01.Tory-Lib Dem and Labour governments in power now need to do something
:15:01. > :15:05.about that. You told me what what everyone else should do and what
:15:05. > :15:09.you would do if you got further powers. I am still waiting for your
:15:09. > :15:12.plan for the here and now. People want an opposition party that's
:15:12. > :15:16.some suggestions for current problems. Fine, I will take up more
:15:16. > :15:22.of your time and I plan for the here and now, for young people in
:15:22. > :15:28.particular is that there needs to be a guarantee of a job or training
:15:28. > :15:32.or education for everybody between 16 and 21. That can only happen if
:15:32. > :15:35.both Westminster and Welsh governments work together on
:15:35. > :15:45.putting together that guarantee for young people. They can't be allowed
:15:45. > :15:47.
:15:47. > :15:51.to continue to bicker whilst young Leanne Wood, what is your plan?
:15:51. > :15:55.need a new deal, like the New Deal in the United States in the
:15:55. > :15:59.Depression of the 1930s, where people are employed to undertake
:15:59. > :16:03.work that needs doing. There is plenty we could do to build
:16:03. > :16:10.resilience to the problems that we have got in the future. Climate
:16:10. > :16:14.change, peak oil. We could employ people in programmes retro fitting
:16:14. > :16:18.homes, for example, to maximise home energy efficiency. If we
:16:18. > :16:24.introduce measures to encourage people to come together and set up
:16:24. > :16:27.co-operatives to do that work, you could encourage, through local
:16:27. > :16:34.stimulation, job-creation at a very local level. That requires much
:16:34. > :16:38.more public spending at a time when money is tight. It would require
:16:38. > :16:42.investment, not necessarily public spending. Plaid Cymru put forward
:16:42. > :16:45.plans in the last election to pull together different aspects of
:16:45. > :16:49.finance, and it could be done through a series of loans, as
:16:49. > :16:54.opposed to grants, necessarily. But what is important is that there is
:16:54. > :16:59.a plan, some thought to planning over the very long term, not just
:16:59. > :17:02.in election cycles of four years. We need a 20 year plan to turn
:17:02. > :17:06.around the Welsh economy. And we have to recognise that we will only
:17:06. > :17:10.do it ourselves. Nobody from outside is going to come and put a
:17:10. > :17:15.factory in the middle of places where we need jobs. If we will only
:17:15. > :17:20.turn around the Welsh economy if we are determined to do it ourselves.
:17:20. > :17:24.Dafydd Elis-Thomas? I am totally committed to future investment in
:17:24. > :17:28.the energy industry in Wales, all kinds of energy mix. We must move
:17:28. > :17:35.to remove carbon from the grid, build up renewables, but we must
:17:35. > :17:39.also have a nuclear. I am told by Kevin McCulloch of Horizon, that
:17:39. > :17:44.there is �50 billion of potential investment in energy in Wales over
:17:44. > :17:47.the next half-century, and he is the person that gives the advice to
:17:47. > :17:52.the present business minister in the world government. York advocacy
:17:52. > :17:58.of nuclear power contravenes the policy of your party. No, it does
:17:58. > :18:01.not. When this was discussed in Plaid group and also in conference,
:18:01. > :18:09.there was an understanding that those areas of Wales, like the one
:18:09. > :18:12.I represent, a former nuclear decommissioning site, now an
:18:12. > :18:20.enterprise zone, thanks to the minister, we are awaiting the
:18:20. > :18:24.decision on the tender for the reactor. This is an opportunity to
:18:24. > :18:29.transform. And it has been agreed historically in the party,
:18:29. > :18:32.especially for those of us who represent the workforce, the energy
:18:32. > :18:37.work force of Wales - and it is not just miners who beat -- who should
:18:37. > :18:44.be supported by Plaid, as we have done historically. The energy
:18:44. > :18:50.workers of the nuclear industry also deserve our support. Leanne
:18:50. > :18:53.Wood, do you support it? Plaid Cymru has said we do not favour a
:18:53. > :18:57.new nuclear power station in Wales. I have produced a plan for creating
:18:57. > :19:02.jobs in the renewable energy sector to replace the jobs that would be
:19:02. > :19:07.created by a new nuclear power station. Realistically, do you
:19:07. > :19:16.think such a plan could create the kind of jobs that the construction
:19:16. > :19:21.and operation of the nuclear plant could? Yes. And more. There is the
:19:21. > :19:27.perfect place particularly for utilising the water around
:19:27. > :19:32.hydropower and marine power. They will not be operational in five
:19:32. > :19:35.years, maybe more. How long would it take to build a nuclear power
:19:35. > :19:39.station? There are potential jobs, if we put serious effort into
:19:39. > :19:45.creating them, in the renewable energy sector. There is no doubt
:19:45. > :19:48.that the north-west of his country has serious unemployment problems.
:19:48. > :19:53.-- of this country. There is a situation that needs addressing, no
:19:53. > :19:58.doubt about it. But I would say there are too many dangers with
:19:58. > :20:04.nuclear, too many unknowns. We do not know what to do with the waste.
:20:04. > :20:08.I think we should not leave that for future generations. Elin Jones?
:20:08. > :20:11.I do not support nuclear power because of the unsolved issues
:20:11. > :20:15.around nuclear waste. There is clearly a difference of opinion in
:20:15. > :20:20.Plaid Cymru. The difference of opinion on nuclear power also
:20:20. > :20:25.exists in the Lib Dem party and the Labour Party in Wales, so it is not
:20:25. > :20:33.unique to Plaid Cymru. I am a pragmatic politician. If the UK
:20:33. > :20:36.Government and others decide that the plant is to be built, I want to
:20:36. > :20:41.see agencies working in that area to ensure that the economic boost
:20:41. > :20:45.from that development works for the people in that area, and that they
:20:45. > :20:51.are able to access the employment opportunities from that. Because
:20:51. > :20:55.Plaid Cymru would want to see that, naturally. Would you heave a sigh
:20:55. > :20:59.of relief? You would get the money jobs on Anglesey that it would
:20:59. > :21:04.provide without you having to, if you like, compromise or principles
:21:04. > :21:08.on nuclear power. I would always want decisions on the future of
:21:08. > :21:13.nuclear energy, all energy, to be taken by Volz politicians in Wales.
:21:13. > :21:18.So it is a matter of regret to me that that decision, just as of a
:21:18. > :21:22.wind farm and large renewable energy applications, are being
:21:22. > :21:26.decided by Westminster politicians rather than by elected Welsh
:21:26. > :21:32.politicians. Leanne Wood, you risk losing votes of members on Anglesey,
:21:32. > :21:36.surely, with your position on this. It is difficult but you have to
:21:36. > :21:40.have a national policy. You cannot decide policies about individual
:21:40. > :21:44.constituencies, I think. You have to decide what is in the Welsh
:21:44. > :21:49.national interest. Plaid Cymru members had decided over many, many
:21:49. > :21:52.opportunities at conferences, that we can power Wales in future
:21:52. > :21:56.without the need for a new nuclear power station and I support the
:21:56. > :22:01.members in their view. Are you putting your political convenience,
:22:01. > :22:04.Dafydd Elis-Thomas, above the interests of Wales? No, and I
:22:04. > :22:08.regret that throughout the campaign Plaid policy has been
:22:08. > :22:11.misrepresented. I spelt it out earlier and I will not waste time
:22:11. > :22:18.spelling it out again. The party has supported the replacement of
:22:18. > :22:23.existing reactors and existing sites at its most recent conference.
:22:24. > :22:29.This is a new nuclear power station. It is not on the same site. Yes, it
:22:29. > :22:33.is on the same site. It is considered a new station and Plaid
:22:33. > :22:38.Cymru is clear that it is not in favour of it. Elin Jones, if you
:22:38. > :22:45.had the choice, would you go for it? No, I am against a nuclear
:22:45. > :22:49.power. You do not fear a backlash on Anglesey? I do not. If the
:22:49. > :22:51.powers on the political decision rested with me I would have been
:22:51. > :22:56.planning their and in north-west Wales to use the renewable resource
:22:56. > :23:01.and develop it, long before we were in the situation we are in now. But
:23:01. > :23:06.I am a pragmatic politician. We are in this situation. They will be a
:23:06. > :23:09.decision by the UK Government and I want the people of North West Wales
:23:09. > :23:12.to benefit from that if the decision is taken. But in a
:23:12. > :23:18.different situation it would not have been the decision I would
:23:18. > :23:22.wanted to take. Let's move on to talk about the kind of leader that
:23:22. > :23:26.you would be of Plaid Cymru, if you are successful in a couple of weeks.
:23:26. > :23:29.The outgoing leader, Ieuan Wyn Jones, said at the weekend that it
:23:29. > :23:32.was his view that the party should take the opportunity to get back
:23:32. > :23:40.into government if the circumstances were right, at its
:23:40. > :23:47.earliest possible chance. Do you agree? Yes, I hope to be back in
:23:47. > :23:51.government in May in a number of local authorities. I meant at
:23:51. > :23:55.Assembly level. Those are the same issues. If you are standing for
:23:55. > :24:00.election, the point is to get elected and do things. I do not see
:24:00. > :24:07.the difference between being in government for in Cardiff, or any
:24:07. > :24:11.other areas of Wales I referred to, and being in government. What would
:24:12. > :24:17.be the right circumstances for planned to return to coalition with
:24:17. > :24:20.Labour in this Assembly term? think we have got it today. This
:24:20. > :24:24.opinion poll seems a fine basses for collaboration. Why should we
:24:24. > :24:27.wait for the Silk Commission, or anything that responds to the UK
:24:27. > :24:31.government, for us to come to an understanding that we should move
:24:31. > :24:34.forward on fiscal powers and we should make sure that we have got a
:24:34. > :24:39.jurisdiction for Wales and the development of devolution as the
:24:39. > :24:43.Welsh people clearly, and I don't put -- pretend this is a referendum,
:24:43. > :24:46.and I do not particularly want another referendum - but in terms
:24:46. > :24:49.of a mandate at an election, I would be happy to lead on those
:24:49. > :24:55.issues so that we would be returning next time into the next
:24:55. > :24:59.Assembly, the fifth Assembly, with fiscal powers. Leanne Wood, are you
:24:59. > :25:04.as keen to get into another coalition with Labour before the
:25:04. > :25:08.next election? Every political party wants to be in government.
:25:08. > :25:10.You put forward a programme and you want to put it into operation. But
:25:10. > :25:15.at the moment Plaid Cymru needs time to work out what our programme
:25:15. > :25:20.is, and we should only enter into coalition when we can agree a
:25:20. > :25:22.progressive programme which takes Wales on. Have we not had a
:25:22. > :25:27.committee looking at that which reported a few weeks back to learn
:25:27. > :25:33.the lessons of the previous Assembly elections? Once the new
:25:33. > :25:38.leader have that on their desk? That work has been done. We need to
:25:38. > :25:41.get serious demands from going into coalition. I am not clear what
:25:41. > :25:46.Labour could actually deliver to progress Wales in the direction
:25:46. > :25:50.that we want to going. I think we should take some time to think
:25:50. > :25:55.about what our next short-term objectives should be and how we can
:25:55. > :25:58.progress them by going into government. Elin Jones. Welsh
:25:58. > :26:01.Labour would have to shift significantly from where it is at
:26:01. > :26:06.the moment in its positioning in the Welsh government if it was
:26:06. > :26:09.attractive to me as a Plaid Cymru leader. It would have to change
:26:09. > :26:14.policy on hospital reconfiguration, be far more ambitious in its
:26:14. > :26:18.demands for devolution of energy powers. Currently, Carwyn Jones
:26:18. > :26:22.only believes that energy powers of 100 megawatts should be devolved to
:26:23. > :26:26.Wales. That is not ambitious. And I would want Welsh Labour to be more
:26:26. > :26:31.ambitious in what it wants to see as fiscal powers for the National
:26:31. > :26:34.Assembly. So unless Carwyn Jones and Labour are willing to shift
:26:35. > :26:39.considerably from their pretty tame position on a number of key issues
:26:39. > :26:46.at the moment, I cannot see circumstances where Plaid Cymru
:26:46. > :26:52.would form a coalition with Labour. Looking ahead beyond 2016, what
:26:52. > :26:58.about a coalition, or some sort of deal with the Conservatives, Dafydd
:26:58. > :27:02.Elis-Thomas? Would you be open to that in principle? No. Under the
:27:02. > :27:06.current leadership of the Welsh Conservatives and their Unionist
:27:06. > :27:11.song, they came out today in response to this opinion poll and
:27:11. > :27:16.said they were the party of the Union. This is 19th century talk,
:27:16. > :27:21.even 18th century. Edmund Burke is long dead. I believe in self-
:27:21. > :27:25.determination. Under a different leader, would you be open to it?
:27:25. > :27:30.they can find one. They have made their decision and the whole tone
:27:30. > :27:35.of the Welsh Conservatives has moved far away from where they were,
:27:35. > :27:44.even two years ago. That is their view. I think Dafydd is absolutely
:27:44. > :27:47.right on this. The current Unionist diatribe
:27:47. > :27:52.coming from the Conservatives and Andrew RT Davies in particular does
:27:52. > :27:56.not chime at all with me as a potential leader. Again, under a
:27:56. > :28:00.different leader? Who knows what that could bring. I am not in
:28:00. > :28:03.principle against forming coalitions with any party if the
:28:03. > :28:07.circumstances are right and the political programme delivers what
:28:07. > :28:13.is of benefit to the people of Wales. I want to see Plaid Cymru
:28:13. > :28:18.leading a Welsh government and Labour removed as the leading party
:28:18. > :28:21.of government in Wales. Leanne Wood, you have ruled out, under your
:28:21. > :28:26.leadership, a deal with the Conservatives. Could that be a
:28:26. > :28:33.hostage to fortune in future? would like to recommend a party
:28:33. > :28:38.rules out going into coalition with the Conservatives. I agree with the
:28:38. > :28:42.points that have been made about the Conservative Party in Wales and
:28:42. > :28:46.the current leadership. But there is also what is going on in London,
:28:46. > :28:50.the cuts. In many parts of Wales, people genuinely fear the
:28:50. > :28:55.Conservatives. And I feel that it acts as a barrier to some people to
:28:55. > :28:59.voting for Plaid Cymru. I think we can expand hour appeal into areas,
:28:59. > :29:03.into former industrial areas for example, where we have had some
:29:03. > :29:06.success in past but not in a sustained way. I think by ruling
:29:06. > :29:09.out a coalition with the Conservatives we can be very clear
:29:09. > :29:13.with people and we can stop Labour running a negative campaign, as
:29:13. > :29:17.they do every election, when they say, Plaid will go into coalition
:29:17. > :29:21.with the Tories. Thank you very much for talking to us and we wish