0:00:00 > 0:00:10The Education Minister unveils his plan to improve Welsh children's
0:00:10 > 0:00:19
0:00:19 > 0:00:21grasp of the three Rs. Will it Good evening. The Education
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Minister, Leighton Andrews, has outlined his plan to improve
0:00:25 > 0:00:27literacy and numeracy in Wales' schools. It's the latest part of
0:00:27 > 0:00:31his 20-point plan to overhaul an education system where
0:00:31 > 0:00:33underperformance has been ringing alarm bells for some time now. A
0:00:33 > 0:00:36declining trend in international comparisons, combined with concern
0:00:36 > 0:00:39from the schools inpectorate, Estyn, that many pupils aren't achieving
0:00:39 > 0:00:45what they should in literacy or numeracy, led the Minister to talk
0:00:45 > 0:00:47of "systemic failure". More recently, new research has
0:00:47 > 0:00:52criticised the Welsh baccalaureate's ability to prepare
0:00:52 > 0:00:57pupils for life at university. On Tuesday, Estyn said schools were
0:00:57 > 0:01:01failing to thread an emphasis on basic skills through the curriculum.
0:01:01 > 0:01:11So where has 13 years of Welsh Government left education here?
0:01:11 > 0:01:21
0:01:21 > 0:01:24For the past four years, the Welsh Government has made sure for every
0:01:24 > 0:01:27child born or adopted in Wales a tree is planted so they have
0:01:28 > 0:01:35something to look back on in years to come. There's 40,000 trees just
0:01:35 > 0:01:37at this one forest on the outskirts of Usk. Often they're planted by
0:01:37 > 0:01:41pupils studying for the Welsh Baccalaureate. The idea is that
0:01:41 > 0:01:44they have a more rounded education as well as being prepared for
0:01:44 > 0:01:49university. It's something that the Welsh Education Minister, Leighton
0:01:49 > 0:01:53Andrews is keen on. Last year's A- level Results Showed that while
0:01:53 > 0:01:57there were improvements in Wales, we'd fallen further behind England.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00That wasn't the full picture according to the minister speaking
0:02:00 > 0:02:05last August. The reality is that we've got an additional nearly
0:02:05 > 0:02:097,000 young people who've got the equivalent of an A grade at A-level,
0:02:09 > 0:02:14because they've got the advanced diploma in the Welsh Baccalaureate,
0:02:14 > 0:02:19that is not included in the A-level figures. Not only have we got
0:02:19 > 0:02:23increased performance at A-level, Atack A star to C grades, we have
0:02:23 > 0:02:28the 7,000 young people of the equiff lent of A grade at A-level
0:02:28 > 0:02:32in terms of university entry point. This week concerns have been raised
0:02:32 > 0:02:36about the Baccalaureate itself and the way it prepares young people
0:02:36 > 0:02:39for higher education. Research into one university suggested
0:02:39 > 0:02:44undergraduates completing the course fared less well than those
0:02:44 > 0:02:48who had not. Because it's an ungraded qualification, it mean
0:02:48 > 0:02:52that's for every student who gets a pass in the qualification, they
0:02:52 > 0:02:57actually have a range of abilities. What we're seeing in the analysis
0:02:57 > 0:03:00is that the difference in abilities amongst the students are not
0:03:00 > 0:03:04reflected in that pass or fail grade. It mean that's students who
0:03:04 > 0:03:08might have passed but are having much lower ability than another
0:03:08 > 0:03:13student brings down their results and the performance of them at
0:03:13 > 0:03:17university as an aggregate group. Teachers broadly support the bacc
0:03:18 > 0:03:24but see room for improvement. are similar that thetic to the idea
0:03:24 > 0:03:27that is -- sympathetic to the idea that is to grade the Baccalaureate
0:03:27 > 0:03:31so that universities can differentiate between the level of
0:03:31 > 0:03:34skills. That would be useful. We think that the Welsh Baccalaureate
0:03:34 > 0:03:39is a significant and important development in our Welsh
0:03:39 > 0:03:45educational journey. We are very largely very supportive of it.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48Early this week, Estyn said many schools were failing to plan well
0:03:48 > 0:03:53enough on how to develop basic skills for 11 to 14-year-olds and
0:03:53 > 0:03:58back in January, they said that 40% of children starting secondary
0:03:58 > 0:04:02school couldn't read as well as they should. If you look at our
0:04:02 > 0:04:07GCSE results: It shows although there have been improvements,
0:04:07 > 0:04:12England has not only overtaken us but seem to be accelerating further
0:04:12 > 0:04:17ahead. But are we necessarily comparing like with like? If you
0:04:17 > 0:04:21compare Welsh performance with English performance, just on GCSEs,
0:04:21 > 0:04:28there's almost no difference, pretty much the same. The
0:04:29 > 0:04:32difference comes because in England, far more young people are achieving
0:04:32 > 0:04:36through vocational qualifications. Now again, that's something that is
0:04:36 > 0:04:40not widely recognised. It gives a bit of a different kind of picture
0:04:40 > 0:04:45of what is happening in Wales. Today, the Welsh Government has
0:04:45 > 0:04:49launched its latest strategy to try to get to grips with our poor
0:04:49 > 0:04:53literacy standards. Earlier in the week, Opposition AMs claimed they'd
0:04:53 > 0:04:57heard it all before. I know you say First Minister that literacy is a
0:04:57 > 0:05:01priority, but can I read you what the previous education ministers
0:05:01 > 0:05:06have said "Improving standards in basic skills is key. Rosemary
0:05:06 > 0:05:10butler, Labour 1999. We have decided to give particular priority
0:05:10 > 0:05:15to basic skills, Jayne Davidson, Labour Education Minister, 2005.
0:05:15 > 0:05:20One of our key priorities is improving levels of literacy,
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Labour Education Minister 2009. My current priority is to raise
0:05:22 > 0:05:27literacy standards, Leighton Andrews Labour Education Minister,
0:05:27 > 0:05:352011. In fact, the only Education Minister that I couldn't find a
0:05:35 > 0:05:40quote from was you Carwyn. If improving literacy has been a
0:05:40 > 0:05:44priority for every Labour Education Minister since 1999, what do you
0:05:44 > 0:05:49think has been going wrong? We have been consistent in our desire to
0:05:49 > 0:05:53raise literacy and numeracy. That's been evidenced by the question
0:05:53 > 0:05:57asked bit leader of the Liberal Democrats. Leighton Andrews as the
0:05:57 > 0:06:01education minister is the latest in the long line of ministers who will
0:06:01 > 0:06:06continue to improve literacy and numeracy. I see nothing wrong with
0:06:06 > 0:06:11that. As with these saplings, it takes time for any policy to root
0:06:11 > 0:06:15itself and make a difference. The same goes with education policies.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19But it's 13 years since we got the Assembly. How likely is it that the
0:06:19 > 0:06:27Welsh Government's education policies will turn into a mighty
0:06:27 > 0:06:31Welsh oak? I think it is time now that we begin to ask quite far
0:06:31 > 0:06:36going questions about the effects that many of the policies that have
0:06:36 > 0:06:41been introduced are having. Of course, that poses the very
0:06:41 > 0:06:46interesting issue, well, how do you measure the effects? What kind of
0:06:46 > 0:06:50effects are you really looking for? Many in the education sector
0:06:50 > 0:06:54believe the Welsh Government's policies are going in the right
0:06:54 > 0:06:57direction. Their targets are ambitious. To be in the top 20 of
0:06:57 > 0:07:02the international league tables in three years. Things may be looking
0:07:03 > 0:07:05up, then, but it might take a while longer for them to blows om.
0:07:05 > 0:07:11-- blossom. I'm joined now by Education Minister, Leighton
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Andrews. Welcome to Dragon's Eye. Good evening. The national literacy
0:07:15 > 0:07:20programme, then, how do you expect that time prove literacy and
0:07:20 > 0:07:23numeracy? This is a sustained focus. There are a number of elements to
0:07:23 > 0:07:27it. We start with introducing standardised reading tests across
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Wales. There are already many reading tests going on at the
0:07:31 > 0:07:35present time, but what we've not had is a standardise add proch.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39We've drawn on extensive research to support development of those
0:07:39 > 0:07:43plans. We've commissioned work externally to help us with that.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47We're also going tone sure that newly qualified teachers have
0:07:47 > 0:07:51appropriate standards of literacy and numeracy and that there will be
0:07:51 > 0:07:55a national framework to assist teachers in all subjects to ensure
0:07:55 > 0:08:01that they are providing young people with the skills they need in
0:08:01 > 0:08:04literacy and numeracy. On the tests, there'll be statutory tests from
0:08:04 > 0:08:09next year, across Wales and consistent, same tests taken by
0:08:09 > 0:08:14each age year group? From years two to nine, those tests will be taken.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19We've done the work, of course, as I've said to develop standardised
0:08:19 > 0:08:27tests. What happens to the results? Obviously, they're going to be
0:08:28 > 0:08:30tabliated. Will parents have access to them? They'll principally be
0:08:30 > 0:08:35diagnostic tests for teachers to understand the progress that the
0:08:35 > 0:08:40young people are themselves making. I think they will give head
0:08:40 > 0:08:44teachers, they will give governors a view as to how overall the
0:08:44 > 0:08:47teaching of literacy and numeracy are taking place within that
0:08:47 > 0:08:51particular school. It is important they have access to that so they
0:08:51 > 0:08:56understand. We already know, for example, that secondary schools
0:08:56 > 0:09:00tend to retest the young people coming to them from primary schools.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Head teachers tell me that they make judgments about which primary
0:09:04 > 0:09:08feeder schools are making accurate assessments of the performance of
0:09:08 > 0:09:11the young people who reach them at secondary. So no automatic parental
0:09:11 > 0:09:16access to the results of the tests? We're work through on the detail of
0:09:16 > 0:09:20what we will be doing with the tests when they come in. As I said,
0:09:20 > 0:09:24they are voluntary this year. I still think there are issues to
0:09:24 > 0:09:27look at. I think it's important. Most parents would expect young
0:09:27 > 0:09:33people leaving primary school to leave with the appropriate reading
0:09:33 > 0:09:36age, clearly 40% of them are not at the present time. Indeed, is the
0:09:36 > 0:09:40re-introduction of consistent tests across the country an admission it
0:09:40 > 0:09:43was a mistake to drop SATs and not replace it with consistent
0:09:44 > 0:09:48assessments of progress? because SATs, teachers will tell
0:09:48 > 0:09:54you when we had SATs they focused really on teaching to those SATs.
0:09:54 > 0:09:59What we're enabling here is practice which allows teachers to
0:09:59 > 0:10:03engage with young people in introducing them to literacy and
0:10:03 > 0:10:10numeracy in a variety of different ways. We know for example, I was at
0:10:10 > 0:10:14a school this morning, again, that has pioneered different approaches
0:10:14 > 0:10:17for boys and girls. We know boys learn in a different way than girls.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20It's important that teachers have the flexibility. The unions are
0:10:20 > 0:10:27worried about the work load. understand that the unions have
0:10:27 > 0:10:32concerns about that. I've signed on, off on additional support for the
0:10:32 > 0:10:36backing of the tests, which we will be taking forward in due course.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41I'm pleased, though, that the unions have, as far as I can see
0:10:41 > 0:10:45today, given a pretty favourable response to what we're planning to
0:10:45 > 0:10:49do here. In terms of the additional support, how will that manifest
0:10:49 > 0:10:55itself? There will be, in the context of the national framework,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59we're looking at training for teachers, we may look at additional
0:10:59 > 0:11:05support in the organisation of the tests themselves. There'll be the
0:11:05 > 0:11:09opportunities for teach efrz to -- teachers to develop their own
0:11:09 > 0:11:16practice in the masters on practice. There are a number of ways in which
0:11:16 > 0:11:20we're giving that support. We've heard from all your predecessors
0:11:20 > 0:11:24that they've all assured parents over the years that numeracy and
0:11:24 > 0:11:28literacy were at the heart of their educational priorities. Why do you
0:11:28 > 0:11:31think that they've so consistently failed to deliver up to this point?
0:11:31 > 0:11:36I think, I don't think they've consistently failed to deliver.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Let's be clear about the education system in Wales. More young people
0:11:40 > 0:11:46are gaining qualifications, fewer are leaving school without
0:11:46 > 0:11:50qualifications. We've been seeing general rise in standards. We've
0:11:50 > 0:11:56bieneered things like the Welsh Baccalaureate and doubled the
0:11:56 > 0:12:01number of vocational qualifications. What I've decided to do over the
0:12:01 > 0:12:07last year to 18 months is to review what we have been doing on literacy.
0:12:07 > 0:12:15That's why I got Estyn to look at the skills framework. As you know,
0:12:15 > 0:12:20according to Estyn, one in five pupils arrive at secondary school
0:12:20 > 0:12:25functionally ill literal. Surely it was up to your predecessors to take
0:12:25 > 0:12:29action to arrest this decline before you adopted it, why did they
0:12:29 > 0:12:34fail? One of the things we are clear about now is that when we
0:12:34 > 0:12:36removed SATs in 2004, we needed to have put in place some other
0:12:36 > 0:12:41accountability mechanisms. We needed a closer eye, perhaps, on
0:12:41 > 0:12:46the outcomes at the end of primary schools. I think what we've seen,
0:12:46 > 0:12:48as there's been closer working between secondary schools and
0:12:49 > 0:12:52cluster primary schools, good practice developing in which people
0:12:52 > 0:13:01are learning about the best ways to measure children's performance. We
0:13:01 > 0:13:06clearly have got some work to do. I think the 40% you mention is the
0:13:06 > 0:13:10clear expression of the problem. 20% functionally illiterate is not
0:13:10 > 0:13:13acceptable. That's why I'm introducing these five-year
0:13:13 > 0:13:16programme. Thanks you for joining us. There are concerns over whether
0:13:16 > 0:13:19a senior Labour councillor in Cardiff secured a favourable lease
0:13:19 > 0:13:22from the local authority for a shop, which he then immediately sublet
0:13:22 > 0:13:26for a profit. Councillor Michael Michael was a Cabinet member when
0:13:26 > 0:13:29the deal was done in 2001 for the commercial unit. He's only just
0:13:29 > 0:13:33been re-elected to the local authority this month and now
0:13:33 > 0:13:40appears set for a senior role chairing the planning committee.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45Here's Brian Meechan. In an unforgettable night for Labour, the
0:13:45 > 0:13:48party swept back to power across the country, including Cardiff.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51This is Councillor Michael Michael, working in his hairdressers. He
0:13:51 > 0:13:56might have been open for business today, but he wasn't open to
0:13:56 > 0:14:00speaking to Dragon's Eye. He lost his seat in this ward in 2008, but
0:14:00 > 0:14:04before that, he held council Cabinet positions in Cardiff,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08including being Deputy Leader. This is the shop that Councillor Michael
0:14:08 > 0:14:12secured the long-term lease for from the Council whilst a member of
0:14:12 > 0:14:16the ruling Cabinet. It's only been closed for a few weeks. It's right
0:14:16 > 0:14:22next door to Councillor's Michael's hairdressers. A former Deputy
0:14:22 > 0:14:27Leader of Cardiff Council, who now leads the Liberal Democrats group
0:14:27 > 0:14:32was concerned. There has to be full openness and transparency. Yes, it
0:14:32 > 0:14:37was thoroughly investigated at the time. I understand nothing was done
0:14:37 > 0:14:43illegally. But for some people, it does leave a sour taste. There's a
0:14:43 > 0:14:48bit of a cloud over it. He paid the Council �10,000 far the lease on
0:14:48 > 0:14:52the property for 99 years in addition to paying an annual rent
0:14:52 > 0:14:56of �1. The deal went ahead despite concerns being raised at the time.
0:14:56 > 0:15:01It emerged that the Councillor Michael intended to immediately
0:15:01 > 0:15:06sublet the property. The senior valuer said, "I do not think this
0:15:06 > 0:15:11is at all acceptable." The valuer believed if the Councillor could
0:15:11 > 0:15:14make money from subleting the shop then the Council was not getting
0:15:14 > 0:15:18the correct amount for it by selling the lease. The deal went
0:15:18 > 0:15:23ahead and Mr Michael sublet the shop for an immediate profit, a
0:15:23 > 0:15:27one-off fee of �10,000, plus an annual charge of �3600. Local
0:15:27 > 0:15:32businesses are unhappy that they've not been offered similar
0:15:32 > 0:15:39arrangements. This is a peppercorn rent like that premises is. But
0:15:39 > 0:15:47mine is �25 a year, a very low figure, but I had to buy that at a
0:15:47 > 0:15:54market value. I paid in 1999 for this �180,000. It doesn't seem to
0:15:54 > 0:15:57match up. Mike owns two shops neighbouring Mr Mikeles. Cardiff
0:15:57 > 0:16:02Council has only issued two long- term leases on retail properties
0:16:02 > 0:16:06since it was created in 1996, both of them to Councillor Michael
0:16:06 > 0:16:11Michael. That's what he's negotiated. We were never given the
0:16:11 > 0:16:15option to naishiate this plan. We didn't know we could negotiate this
0:16:15 > 0:16:23plan. We were told by the valuation office that our rates would be
0:16:23 > 0:16:27whatever the rates would be for the shop, as in mine is � 2,600 a year.
0:16:27 > 0:16:37In four years' time, when I get possibly another rate review, it
0:16:37 > 0:16:39
0:16:39 > 0:16:42will possibly go up again. So it just smacks of privilege, committee
0:16:42 > 0:16:46council privilege. Michael Michael was returned to the Council at this
0:16:47 > 0:16:50month's elections. Dragon's Eye has seen evidence that the new ruling
0:16:50 > 0:16:55Labour group intends to put him forward as the chair of the
0:16:56 > 0:17:00planning committee. I am sure prized, yes. Whilst he hasn't done
0:17:00 > 0:17:06anything wrong, the fact there's a bit of a cloud still quite raw with
0:17:06 > 0:17:10some residents of this city, it is very surprising. If it were me, I
0:17:10 > 0:17:14don't think I would have wanted to have gone for that, even though I
0:17:14 > 0:17:20knew I hadn't done anything wrong, I think I would have tended to stay
0:17:20 > 0:17:24away from that controversy. internal investigations found there
0:17:24 > 0:17:28had been no wrongdoing and that all the correct legal procedures had
0:17:28 > 0:17:32been followed. Both concluded that the sale had been sole to -- open
0:17:32 > 0:17:36to market tender and the deal was standard practice. The Council
0:17:36 > 0:17:39referred the matter to the Wales Audit Office. They decided against
0:17:39 > 0:17:43investigating the matter saying that too much time had passed and
0:17:43 > 0:17:46that there was limited information available from the Council. It said
0:17:46 > 0:17:55that if anything new evidence became available it could look into
0:17:55 > 0:17:59Another former deputy leader says the matter should not rest there.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02would write to the new council leader and ask her to investigate
0:18:02 > 0:18:05with the chief executive of the Wales Audit Office. It cannot be
0:18:06 > 0:18:11acceptable that some businesses pay thousands for Lisa's in this area,
0:18:11 > 0:18:15yards from his property, and yet this property is rented for �1 a
0:18:16 > 0:18:20year from the council. The newly- elected council meets for the first
0:18:21 > 0:18:24time this evening. This is one Raul there seems sure to rumble on.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28I spoke to the chair of the Assembly's Public Accounts
0:18:28 > 0:18:32Committee, Darren Millar. What do you make of this? It clearly
0:18:32 > 0:18:36appears there have been unusual arrangements between the council
0:18:36 > 0:18:39and Councillor Michael. I think we need clarity in order to move on
0:18:39 > 0:18:42from this, which clearly appears to be cropping up as an issue which
0:18:42 > 0:18:47people are calling for investigations on on a regular
0:18:47 > 0:18:52basis. What do you make of the response from the Wales Audit
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Office? Has it been adequate? Wales Audit Office have done
0:18:55 > 0:18:59everything they could do given the evidence available to them at the
0:18:59 > 0:19:03time that it was presented. Obviously, if further information
0:19:03 > 0:19:07comes forward it would be right for the Wales Audit Office to review
0:19:07 > 0:19:12that information in its entirety in order to have some clarity on this
0:19:12 > 0:19:15issue, to see exactly what has happened. In terms of your role as
0:19:15 > 0:19:19chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and the wider issue of
0:19:19 > 0:19:23the monitoring of the way not only that public money is spent, but
0:19:23 > 0:19:26also of the way that potential money that could be going into
0:19:26 > 0:19:31taxpayer coffers may or may not be being gathered, do you think there
0:19:31 > 0:19:35is sufficient rigour about that in Wales at the moment? We need to
0:19:35 > 0:19:39ensure there is value for taxpayers in any arrangement when there is
0:19:39 > 0:19:42any financial transaction between a council or any public body and a
0:19:42 > 0:19:46member of the public. And we need to uphold the highest standards of
0:19:47 > 0:19:52integrity, particularly when individual members of a local
0:19:52 > 0:19:55authority are in quite a privileged position and they are entering into
0:19:55 > 0:19:59a financial, or illegal transaction with a local authority of which
0:19:59 > 0:20:03they are a member. I think we could do with clear guidelines being
0:20:03 > 0:20:06published, perhaps by the Wales government, or maybe even by the
0:20:06 > 0:20:11Wales Audit Office, to ensure that people can follow those guidelines
0:20:11 > 0:20:15when they are entering into these transactions. At the moment, the
0:20:15 > 0:20:19standard is whether the law has been observed, whether there has
0:20:19 > 0:20:23been full legality. In this case, that is the case, no one has done
0:20:23 > 0:20:28anything unlawful. Some might say that is quite a low threshold to
0:20:28 > 0:20:31have as your standard. The issue with this particular case is that
0:20:31 > 0:20:34it seems the approach with Councillor Martin has been
0:20:34 > 0:20:37inconsistent with the approach in terms of that financial
0:20:37 > 0:20:42transactions, the legal transactions which have been taken
0:20:42 > 0:20:47and made with other shopkeepers and other individuals who are leasing
0:20:47 > 0:20:49properties. And I think that needs to be looked at. We need to make
0:20:49 > 0:20:55sure there is clarity so that people are treated, regardless of
0:20:55 > 0:20:59whether they hold office or not, in the same way. Do you intend to take
0:20:59 > 0:21:04any action in that regard yourself, to stimulate discussion about
0:21:04 > 0:21:07whether formal guidelines need to be adopted? I will certainly talk
0:21:07 > 0:21:13to the Wales Audit Office and the auditor general about this case and
0:21:13 > 0:21:18the issues it throws up. Thank you. You are welcome.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has appointed a new shadow Welsh
0:21:22 > 0:21:27secretary of the Peter Hain stepped down. His successor, Owen Smith, is
0:21:27 > 0:21:32here now. Welcome, congratulations on your new role. How do you see it
0:21:32 > 0:21:36developing? I see it as a very much a crucial role speaking for Wales
0:21:36 > 0:21:40in Westminster. I think we perhaps lacked a strident, strong voice
0:21:40 > 0:21:43from Wales in Westminster over the last couple of years. I don't feel
0:21:43 > 0:21:47the Tory government really understands Wales in the way in
0:21:47 > 0:21:50which the Labour Party does, given our heritage and history here. I
0:21:50 > 0:21:54want to provide a powerful voice for Wales in Westminster, and we
0:21:54 > 0:22:00needed, because we still have macro-economic levers in particular,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03but all sorts of other areas of non-devolved policy that reside in
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Westminster, and we need to make sure the Government understands
0:22:06 > 0:22:11what Wales needs and what Carwyn Jones and his ministers need in
0:22:11 > 0:22:14order to deliver improvements in Wales. As you know, there has been
0:22:14 > 0:22:18a debate for some time about whether the devolution process
0:22:18 > 0:22:22renders the role of Welsh Secretary and shadow Welsh secretary
0:22:22 > 0:22:26increasingly irrelevant. I think that's a legitimate question and
0:22:26 > 0:22:30debate, but I don't think we are at that point yet, or anywhere near it,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33when you still have crucial areas, areas right at the heart of the
0:22:33 > 0:22:38political debate - the economy, what we are doing in respect of
0:22:38 > 0:22:41pensions, what we are doing in respect of welfare and benefits.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Those are not peripheral issues. They are arguably the central
0:22:44 > 0:22:49issues of modern political debate, and that is why you still need a
0:22:49 > 0:22:54voice around the Cabinet table or the Shadow Cabinet table, speaking
0:22:54 > 0:22:57about Wales' needs in those areas. A you could make the same point
0:22:57 > 0:23:00about Manchester or Wigan in those terms, because there are cabinet
0:23:00 > 0:23:04positions and Shadow Cabinet positions that directly address all
0:23:04 > 0:23:08of the examples you have given. Surely it is the role of the people
0:23:08 > 0:23:13in those posts to deal with the issues you have described.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16could do, but we are a country and that is different. They are
0:23:16 > 0:23:20particularities to Wales and there are needs for Wales, not least the
0:23:20 > 0:23:26fact that we have an Assembly here, which also changes the dynamics of
0:23:26 > 0:23:29how policy is delivered. In Wigan and Manchester there is a far more
0:23:29 > 0:23:34direct, central role right across Government. There is the Assembly,
0:23:34 > 0:23:38earth which into seats even in areas where there is retained power
0:23:38 > 0:23:43still. It is a unique status for Wales and Scotland and right now I
0:23:43 > 0:23:46do not see any need to change it. In terms of the Assembly and
0:23:46 > 0:23:51particularly the relationship of you as shadow secretary of state
0:23:51 > 0:23:55with the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, how important is that role?
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Enormously. The relationship is hugely important. We have had
0:23:58 > 0:24:03strong relationships in the past and I hope to improve on that.
0:24:03 > 0:24:09Carwyn Jones and DI are similar in age and political perspective, in
0:24:09 > 0:24:13background, I can see us building a strong relationship. -- he and I.
0:24:13 > 0:24:18Is it more than being the First Minister's ambassador in London?
0:24:18 > 0:24:21think it is much more than that. Crucially, there are issues where
0:24:21 > 0:24:26there is still policy held in Westminster. Wales has a
0:24:26 > 0:24:29perspective on what Britain ought to do and think in respect of
0:24:29 > 0:24:34foreign policy. Wales still has a perspective that is unique, I
0:24:34 > 0:24:37suggest, in terms of industrial strategy. We are part of the world,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42similar to the north-east but not exactly the same, where we have a
0:24:42 > 0:24:46need for an active invention, interventionist industrial strategy
0:24:46 > 0:24:49from Westminster. And we need somebody from Wales arguing that in
0:24:49 > 0:24:52Westminster, especially when you have a Government that does not
0:24:53 > 0:24:56believe that, that does not believe there is anything they can do and
0:24:56 > 0:25:01believes they need to leave it to the market. They would not accept
0:25:01 > 0:25:05they do not need to do anything. Today we heard David Cameron
0:25:05 > 0:25:09talking about the importance of growth. He talks about it. It would
0:25:09 > 0:25:13be good if he had a budget for jobs and growth but he has not had one.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17How will we know if you have been a good Welsh Secretary? What are the
0:25:17 > 0:25:21criteria we should use? principally, if I have got the Tory
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Government to listen to us to an extent and to understand they need
0:25:25 > 0:25:28to be doing more. Secondly, perhaps even more importantly, if we have
0:25:28 > 0:25:31succeeded in persuading the public that they are not listening and
0:25:31 > 0:25:34need to be turfed out in order to put in place in Westminster the
0:25:34 > 0:25:39Government that is going to listen to Wales and deliver the policies,
0:25:39 > 0:25:42in particular with respect of the economy, that can deliver jobs.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Because all politicians right now ought to be measured on the extent
0:25:46 > 0:25:48to which they are improving living standards, improving jobs,
0:25:48 > 0:25:54improving job security and opportunities for people right
0:25:54 > 0:25:59across the country. On a personal level, you have had a meteoric rise,
0:25:59 > 0:26:02and over-used phrase but perhaps appropriate for you. You were only
0:26:02 > 0:26:07elected in 2010 and you are already in the Shadow Cabinet, widely
0:26:07 > 0:26:11described as a rising star. What are your personal ambitions? His is
0:26:11 > 0:26:15a stepping-stone for you? I went into politics having been on the
0:26:15 > 0:26:19other side of the lens. I was a journalist, an adviser, worked in
0:26:19 > 0:26:23business. The reason I am in politics and not doing those things
0:26:23 > 0:26:28is that I want to change the world and improved people's lot, and I
0:26:28 > 0:26:33want to do that starting in Wales. This is a programme that you used
0:26:33 > 0:26:37to be in charge of. Thank you. Let's talk to Betsan Powys. You
0:26:37 > 0:26:42would not believe how many times the director had me rehearsing this
0:26:42 > 0:26:45walk. You would think it would be easy but it is more than I am Capel
0:26:45 > 0:26:50wrath! Let's look ahead to something happening next week. We
0:26:50 > 0:26:54expect an announcement on infrastructure investment. It is
0:26:54 > 0:26:57worth thinking ahead about this one because partly it plays into the
0:26:57 > 0:27:04argument you have just been discussing, Nicky one of the moment,
0:27:04 > 0:27:07growth this is austerity. You had David Cameron arguing that
0:27:07 > 0:27:10austerity leads to growth if you did in the right way. You had Owen
0:27:10 > 0:27:14Smith and his party and governments across Europe arguing that that is
0:27:14 > 0:27:17wrong. Next week, the Welsh government brings out its Welsh
0:27:17 > 0:27:21infrastructure plan. They will argue this is part of the proof
0:27:21 > 0:27:25that we need that this is a government for growth. They will
0:27:25 > 0:27:29invite us to contrast what they are doing, announcing where they will
0:27:29 > 0:27:33spend the money that they have on big projects in Wales over the
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Spending Review period, and some hints as to what is to come after
0:27:37 > 0:27:43that. If you are Jane Hutt, you argue this is proof of growth
0:27:43 > 0:27:45strategy. The opposition parties will say, you have �3.5 billion as
0:27:45 > 0:27:50a block grant from the UK Government, as you always do, and
0:27:50 > 0:27:54you are just telling us where you will spend it. How is that proof of
0:27:54 > 0:27:57a growth strategy? How does that tell us this is more than smoke and
0:27:57 > 0:28:01mirrors and you just want us to think of you in a different way?
0:28:01 > 0:28:05And how it is presented, whether there is any more money to be
0:28:05 > 0:28:10leveraged into this, will decide who wins this battle on points.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13are seeing the UK Government trying to reposition itself, taking the
0:28:13 > 0:28:18focus of the language of austerity and on to growth. They are
0:28:18 > 0:28:21obviously send -- sensitive about this. A austerity moves to
0:28:21 > 0:28:26efficiency. How the Welsh Government speaks to that argument
0:28:26 > 0:28:31and where it fits in well be key to them and interesting for us. Thank