:00:54. > :01:04.Could Welsh universities be damaged by the UK Government's immigration
:01:04. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:14.Good evening. The Education Minister, Leighton Andrews, says
:01:14. > :01:16.he's "very concerned" that the ability of Welsh universities to
:01:16. > :01:21.attract international students will be damaged by the UK Government's
:01:21. > :01:23.immigration policy. Nearly 70 leaders from the university sector,
:01:23. > :01:26.including many from Wales have written to the Prime Minister
:01:26. > :01:29.warning that changes to student visas will discourage applicants
:01:29. > :01:39.and deprive the economy of billions of pounds a year. The UK Government
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :01:44.says genuine students won't be affected. Here's Brian Meechan.
:01:44. > :01:48.Welsh universities have become increasingly competitive on the
:01:48. > :01:53.world stage in trying to attract international students and
:01:53. > :01:57.academics. One in 10 of the student population here at Cardiff
:01:57. > :02:01.University come from abroad. About a quarter of all those in Wales
:02:01. > :02:07.study at this institution and this is one of the universities in the
:02:07. > :02:09.country that is worried by the UK Government's policy. To be a world-
:02:09. > :02:14.class university, we need to have students from all over the world.
:02:14. > :02:21.If we lose those students, there is a risk that our reputation will
:02:21. > :02:27.fall. There is a risk it will damage the local economy. Figures
:02:27. > :02:33.released last week show that net migration into the UK is running at
:02:33. > :02:37.about 250,000 people annually. That is more than the 100,000 people
:02:37. > :02:43.that the UK Government wants. The main reason people come here is to
:02:43. > :02:46.study. Cardiff University joined Bangor, Aberystwyth and Cardiff
:02:46. > :02:55.Metropolitan University to raise concerns that the UK Government's
:02:55. > :02:59.attempt to cut -- cap levels. Chancellors and cheers of
:02:59. > :03:04.universities boards Express our view -- is clearly to the
:03:04. > :03:11.government. When the policy of controlling population in and out
:03:11. > :03:18.of the UK affects our international market, and even in a relatively
:03:18. > :03:25.small university like Bangor, the overseas student population outside
:03:25. > :03:30.the European Union is about 1,500 and that is around �40 million for
:03:30. > :03:36.the er the city. The Education Minister has said he is worried
:03:36. > :03:43.about the government plans. higher education institutions have
:03:43. > :03:53.recruited overseas. A lot of them are looking to do it in partnership
:03:53. > :03:53.
:03:53. > :04:03.with further education colleges. So we are concerned about the
:04:03. > :04:04.
:04:04. > :04:12.financial impact and the reputation this could have on Wales. Foreign
:04:12. > :04:17.students -- the UK Government is determined to stop the abuse of the
:04:17. > :04:24.visa system. One senior Welsh Conservatives has rejected claims
:04:24. > :04:28.the crackdown on immigration could harm universities. The Government
:04:28. > :04:33.is saying you should have a high level of English. That is common
:04:33. > :04:41.sense. When I was on the Home Affairs Select Committee, we looked
:04:41. > :04:47.into bogus students coming here and I understand people from foreign
:04:47. > :04:50.countries want to do that. I am not blaming anybody but it is an abuse
:04:50. > :04:54.of the system which has to be stopped. The government has also
:04:54. > :04:58.said its policy will not stop genuine students from coming to the
:04:58. > :05:04.UK but others warned international students could go elsewhere.
:05:04. > :05:07.Critics argue that the Government's immigration policy risked driving
:05:07. > :05:16.international students towards our competitors in Australia, Canada
:05:16. > :05:21.and Germany and the USA. They argue that risk would make universities
:05:21. > :05:25.in Wales less high profile. reality is, we have a global market
:05:25. > :05:30.for students. It is destined to grow enormously and other countries
:05:30. > :05:34.are seeing the advantage of this new market so Australia, which had
:05:34. > :05:44.an immigration policy similar to the one we're practising, has
:05:44. > :05:46.
:05:46. > :05:50.decided to go away from it. We seem to want to close the hot. We want
:05:50. > :05:56.the best and brightest from China to come here and steady but they
:05:56. > :06:00.can always speak flawless English. What the government is trying to do
:06:00. > :06:04.is to weed out those who can't even speak English and to claim there
:06:04. > :06:14.are studying some sort of degree over here. That is just common
:06:14. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:20.sense. Recent visa rule changes have increased restrictions. Some
:06:20. > :06:22.want the government to go further but others saw one of the damage to
:06:22. > :06:27.a university's international standing. With the billions of
:06:27. > :06:31.pounds overseas students bring into the country, it seems ministers
:06:31. > :06:36.will have to work harder to convince the education sector that
:06:36. > :06:46.they are striking the right balance. I'm joined now by Bela Arora from
:06:46. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:50.the University of Wales, Newport and Alp Mehmet from Migration Watch.
:06:50. > :06:54.The Immigration Minister has sought to RIAS -- reassure the university
:06:54. > :06:59.sector seeing genuine students will still be admitted. Tu accept those
:07:00. > :07:07.reassurances? Hit only does partly to reassure the higher education
:07:07. > :07:10.institutions. -- it only. We need to be thinking about what kind of
:07:10. > :07:20.signal this sense to other countries and to prospective
:07:20. > :07:20.
:07:20. > :07:25.students. They are the ones who we need to be concerned about. We
:07:25. > :07:32.pride ourselves on being welcoming as well as offering a high Caliber
:07:33. > :07:36.of dedication and surely that should be a priority. Is that an
:07:36. > :07:44.important point? That this is a competitive market and UK
:07:44. > :07:54.universities need to sell themselves to international
:07:54. > :08:01.
:08:01. > :08:05.students. I can understand why people are concerned. But I don't
:08:05. > :08:10.see the government has done anything to dissuade good students
:08:10. > :08:15.from coming to this country. In fact, the Higher Education survey
:08:15. > :08:24.today published in the Times suggested that the overall numbers
:08:24. > :08:29.for 2012 and 2013 had gone up by an average of nine by 5%. Having spent
:08:29. > :08:35.a lot of my professional career overseas encouraging and selecting
:08:35. > :08:44.students to come to this country, I see no problem with what is going
:08:44. > :08:48.on. They are attracted by quality and value for money. Sometimes,
:08:48. > :08:55.universities and those who run them cry wolf too readily because what
:08:55. > :09:03.they say in rubbishing our policies gets played back and the image
:09:03. > :09:10.created is that we're not welcoming and that just isn't true. Bela
:09:10. > :09:17.Arora, they have been examples of abuses of the system. Those need
:09:17. > :09:22.addressing. Yes. But we need to remember that that is a minority
:09:22. > :09:28.and so why do we need blanket restrictions that have far reaching
:09:28. > :09:34.consequences? I was to take issue with the statistics because even
:09:34. > :09:40.though they have been increases in some areas, we need to be aware of
:09:40. > :09:47.the countries and the origins of the students. For example, Chinese
:09:47. > :09:52.students are not affected by a lot of these debates partly because
:09:52. > :09:56.they are less cost sensitive and they are more ranking sensitive. A
:09:56. > :10:01.lot of students who are coming to Welsh Universities come from India
:10:01. > :10:04.and Nigeria, where there are significant indications and even
:10:04. > :10:10.during the process of these debates over the past year, we have seen a
:10:10. > :10:14.decline in the number of students from both areas. What about this
:10:14. > :10:23.suggestion that the sector came up with this week that students should
:10:23. > :10:26.be treated as visitors rather than as permanent? They are not visitors.
:10:26. > :10:30.They are here for all the rear and the international definition of
:10:30. > :10:35.what constitutes immigration is someone who is here for longer than
:10:35. > :10:39.one year. This is not something new. It was observed by governments
:10:39. > :10:44.before this one. The point about the Chinese and the Indians,
:10:44. > :10:50.there's nothing different that applies to the Chinese that does
:10:51. > :10:58.not to the Indian perspective students and vice versa. In 2008,
:10:58. > :11:04.there was a new system and in the first year alone, there was a 30 %
:11:04. > :11:11.increase in the number of students coming here particularly from
:11:11. > :11:15.countries like India. The Public Accounts Committee chaired by a
:11:15. > :11:22.member MP came up with a figure recently that in that first year
:11:22. > :11:25.alone, something like 50,000 students came here who have no
:11:26. > :11:31.intention of studying. It is right that we should tighten the rules
:11:31. > :11:36.and ensure that only the genuine students come here for a very
:11:36. > :11:39.welcome and always have been. you both for taking part in the
:11:39. > :11:41.programme. Downing Street says the Prime
:11:41. > :11:44.Minister will not be referring Jeremy Hunt to his independent
:11:44. > :11:47.adviser on the ministerial code. The Culture Secretary gave evidence
:11:47. > :11:50.to the Leveson Inquiry into press standards today and Downing Street
:11:50. > :11:52.says David Cameron believes Mr Hunt acted properly when he was
:11:52. > :11:55.assessing News Corporation's bid to take over BSkyB. Earlier in the
:11:55. > :12:00.week, Lord Leveson gave some insight into his thoughts on
:12:01. > :12:03.possible reform of press regulation in conversation with Tony Blair.
:12:04. > :12:06.The other side of the freedom of speech argument was presented with
:12:06. > :12:16.force by the UK Education Secretary, Michael Gove. Tomos Livingstone
:12:16. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:32.looks at how we got here and where we go next.
:12:32. > :12:38.It is a sensational attack. The Prime Minister turns the tables on
:12:38. > :12:42.the tabloids, accusing the attack dogs of acting like feral beasts.
:12:43. > :12:51.I'm going to turn it says something which few people in public life can
:12:52. > :12:56.say. A vast aspect of our jobs today, outside of the really major
:12:56. > :13:04.decisions, as they give anything else, is coping with the media. Its
:13:04. > :13:09.sheer scale, wait and hyperactivity. At point, it literally overwhelms.
:13:09. > :13:13.But it sold news. Tony Blair gave that speech five years ago. The
:13:13. > :13:17.former prime minister was back this week giving evidence to the Leveson
:13:17. > :13:23.Inquiry. His views on the media have not changed much. But the
:13:23. > :13:29.political context certainly has. There are a lot of people in
:13:29. > :13:35.journalism and in the media who, if the framework within which they are
:13:35. > :13:40.operating is different, it will also give them the freedom to do
:13:40. > :13:44.their job properly. The so how did we get here, as luck phone hacking
:13:44. > :13:50.by journalists at the News of the World became public knowledge in
:13:50. > :13:57.2009. But it was the revelation that phones belonging to the murder
:13:57. > :14:00.victim, Milly Dowler, that pushed the story on the page 1. I want
:14:00. > :14:06.everything and I want everyone to be clear. Everything that happened
:14:06. > :14:12.is going to be investigated. The witnesses will be questioned by H-
:14:12. > :14:16.reg under oath. No stone will be left unturned. David Cameron
:14:16. > :14:22.appointed Lord Leveson to look at the ethics of the media. The police
:14:22. > :14:28.are still investigating two. They that sue police inquiries. They are
:14:28. > :14:36.looking up from hacking and payments to public officials. As
:14:36. > :14:41.with all good stories, there's more. News Corporation, the parent
:14:41. > :14:48.company of the News of the world's, eventually gave up its bid to take
:14:48. > :14:52.total control of the broadcaster BSkyB. But the takeover needed to
:14:52. > :14:59.go ahead former Cabinet minister acting in a legal rather than a
:14:59. > :15:03.little capacity. David Cameron took the job of the Vince Cable after he
:15:03. > :15:11.suggested he had already made up his mind. The job went instead to
:15:11. > :15:17.Jeremy Hunt. It has emerged since that he and his team were in close
:15:17. > :15:23.call -- conversation with News Corporation. You set aside any
:15:23. > :15:27.views that you have and you decide objectively on the basis of media
:15:28. > :15:31.plurality and not on the policy considerations that had been my
:15:31. > :15:38.preoccupation to that point. Lord Justice Leveson has had his work
:15:38. > :15:42.cut out. At times, he must feel as if he's not just dealing with feral
:15:42. > :15:46.beasts that Frankenstein's monster. So what will the headline writers
:15:46. > :15:49.have to say when the report is finally published quite like there
:15:49. > :15:55.are some hints already. Lord Leveson has said he is considering
:15:55. > :15:59.a new regulator to advise papers on whether to publish sensational
:15:59. > :16:05.stories before the presses start to roll. The final decisions on any
:16:05. > :16:15.new regulations live with the politicians. Some changes are
:16:15. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:23.likely but will they be toast dropping staff? Even politicians
:16:23. > :16:26.don't want the press turned into a pool. -- Pool.
:16:26. > :16:28.Joining me now is Ian Hargreaves, professor of journalism at Cardiff
:16:28. > :16:31.University, the political commentator, Rod Richards, and from
:16:31. > :16:35.our Swansea studio, Spencer Feeney, the editor of the South Wales
:16:36. > :16:39.Evening Post. There was a fascinating exchange between Lord
:16:39. > :16:44.Leveson and Michael Gove earlier in the week us where Michael Gove was
:16:44. > :16:51.defending freedom of speech and suggesting that some abuses were a
:16:51. > :17:01.price worth paying up. Lord Leveson challenge his assertions. They
:17:01. > :17:02.
:17:02. > :17:06.exchange sums up the argument. -- their exchange. He did a bit cross
:17:06. > :17:10.-- he got a bit cross and said he did not need anybody telling him
:17:10. > :17:20.that freedom of speech was important. But he has made it clear
:17:20. > :17:24.that he is looking for a balanced outcome which both get its
:17:24. > :17:27.independence of a new regulatory system, independence from
:17:27. > :17:34.politicians and the state, and independence from the people who
:17:34. > :17:38.own the news media. That is a position that we have never managed
:17:38. > :17:44.to get to in this country. The other thing I've heard him say over
:17:44. > :17:53.and over again is that, I am not going to be afoot nut in somebody
:17:53. > :17:58.else's book. So he recognises that this is the best opportunity that
:17:58. > :18:06.there has been in the entire history of the news media to do
:18:06. > :18:16.something different. He knows he can only recommend and I am sure he
:18:16. > :18:17.
:18:17. > :18:21.is fearful that his work will end I wonder what your take on where
:18:21. > :18:25.the balance should be struck lies? You have seen it from every angle.
:18:25. > :18:32.You have been a journalist and politician and the subject of
:18:32. > :18:38.tabloid attention. I think one of the problems Lord Leveson has his
:18:38. > :18:41.defining public interest as opposed to what interests the public. One
:18:41. > :18:49.of the interesting things Ken Clarke said is that much of what
:18:49. > :18:56.the public are concerned about are already criminal offences, bribery,
:18:56. > :19:01.hacking. I think the biggest problem that Lord Leveson is going
:19:01. > :19:05.to have... I accept the argument we must have some sort of regulatory
:19:05. > :19:10.body. Michael Gove says, leave things as they are. You must have
:19:10. > :19:20.some form of regulatory body that does not have a politician anywhere
:19:20. > :19:24.near it and has distanced from editors. Kenneth Clarke had
:19:24. > :19:30.interesting things to say about journalists who may commit a
:19:30. > :19:32.criminal offence in the public interest. Already the Director of
:19:32. > :19:39.Public Prosecutions does not prosecute a journalist for that
:19:39. > :19:43.offence. Lord Leveson's main problem is going to be with the
:19:44. > :19:51.pressure that the media can exert on politicians and ministers and
:19:51. > :19:54.Vince Cable in his evidence said that he had a source who had told
:19:54. > :19:58.him that News International said that if Vince Cable did not play
:19:58. > :20:03.the game as far back as they were concerned with the bid, his party
:20:03. > :20:09.would be done over. That is the kind of threat that Lord Leveson
:20:09. > :20:13.really has to address. How he does it is another matter. Let us bring
:20:14. > :20:17.in Spencer Feeney. I know it back in a previous life you work for the
:20:17. > :20:20.existing regulatory body, the Press Complaints Commission. From that
:20:20. > :20:25.perspective as well as your perspective as a practising
:20:25. > :20:28.journalist, what are your thoughts about how you create an effective
:20:28. > :20:33.regulatory body that at the same time allows enough freedom for the
:20:33. > :20:38.press to actually do their job of scrutinising be privileged and
:20:38. > :20:43.powerful? I think the Press Complaints Commission itself, we
:20:43. > :20:47.should not assume it has utterly failed. I think it failed in
:20:47. > :20:52.regards to dealing with phone hacking but so did the Metropolitan
:20:52. > :20:56.Police and so did the Crown Prosecution Service. If we want to
:20:56. > :21:02.scrap the PCC because of that failure, logically, we should talk
:21:02. > :21:08.about scrapping the net and the CPS which naturally nobody is. --
:21:08. > :21:14.scrapping the Met. I think the PCC does a good job in swiftly
:21:14. > :21:19.resolving complaints from the ordinary reader. Whatever replaces
:21:19. > :21:24.it should maintain that part of its service. On top of that, however,
:21:24. > :21:29.there will need to be some form of ombudsmen who has the power and
:21:29. > :21:34.resources to investigate serious misconduct and I think to impose
:21:34. > :21:37.tougher penalties than the PCC has been able to. That is an
:21:38. > :21:42.interesting point. In his conversation with Tony Blair, Lord
:21:42. > :21:46.Leveson talked about serious financial sections that this
:21:46. > :21:51.regulatory body would be able to impose -- financial sanctions. Is
:21:51. > :21:54.that something you would feel comfortable with? I would be very
:21:54. > :22:02.cautious about serious financial sanctions. But I would not be
:22:02. > :22:09.cautious about the principle of applying some legal or statutory
:22:09. > :22:14.leverage around the powers that a revamped regulatory body has. There
:22:14. > :22:19.is a way of doing that which does not get you into over regulating
:22:19. > :22:23.the press. I think it is also the case that the press is asking for
:22:23. > :22:28.an is right to be asking for a stronger public interest defences
:22:28. > :22:33.to be written into a number of pieces of legislation where it is
:22:33. > :22:38.currently lacking. The press needs the right legal framework right
:22:38. > :22:41.across the board and it needs the right kind of regulator, a
:22:41. > :22:48.regulator that the public have confidence own. The problem with
:22:48. > :22:54.the PCC is that confidence has been lost. However unfairly, we can
:22:54. > :22:58.debate, but it has gone. It has to be reconstructed. It is a hell of a
:22:59. > :23:02.challenge for Lord Leveson. I do not agree with the idea of
:23:02. > :23:10.financial sanctions. There is a world of difference... It depends
:23:10. > :23:16.of the means of the offender. The Evening Post is not going to be the
:23:16. > :23:21.same category of financial sections as the media empire. I think the
:23:21. > :23:25.sanctions or the remedy has to be some form of punishment or sanction
:23:25. > :23:30.that has some opprobrium attached to it. In the same way that a
:23:30. > :23:34.doctor being struck off the register... It is bad enough that
:23:34. > :23:38.he loses his job but there is opprobrium attached to it. Let me
:23:39. > :23:45.ask Spencer Feeney your thoughts on the possibility of financial
:23:45. > :23:48.sanctions. I think Lord Leveson may look at that. My theory is that
:23:48. > :23:51.inevitably it involves suppliers and that would mean the new system
:23:51. > :23:57.would be more bureaucratic and certainly more costly than the
:23:57. > :24:00.system we are looking to replace. Gentlemen, thank you very much.
:24:00. > :24:03.The Office of Fair Trading says it is planning to refer the car
:24:03. > :24:06.insurance industry to the Competition Commission. It says the
:24:06. > :24:10.practice of insurance companies getting referral fees from car-hire
:24:10. > :24:16.firms and repair garages is inflating premiums. The decision
:24:16. > :24:21.could have a big impact on Cardiff- based Admiral Insurance, Britain's
:24:21. > :24:25.second-biggest insurance provider. Referral fees make up a bigger part
:24:25. > :24:29.of its profits. Earlier I spoke to its chief operating officer. I
:24:29. > :24:34.asked him for his thoughts on something we talked about in last
:24:34. > :24:40.week's programme, the creation of an enterprise zone target in the
:24:41. > :24:47.financial sector in Cardiff. What lessons have they learnt setting up
:24:47. > :24:50.in the capital? We came to Wales in the early 90s and there were some
:24:50. > :24:55.things that make a real difference. We wear a brand new company and
:24:55. > :24:59.could have gone anywhere. The reason we chose South Wales was
:24:59. > :25:05.transport links to London, partly a number of people in Wales did a
:25:05. > :25:10.brilliant job of selling Wales to us and partly because it is a nice
:25:10. > :25:14.place to live. We have to take the whole management team and we all
:25:14. > :25:18.had to come to South Wales. The fact it is a lovely place to live
:25:18. > :25:23.is also an important factor. terms of the lessons you could
:25:23. > :25:28.apply from that experience to the discussions about how best to tempt
:25:28. > :25:34.other big financial players to a financial sector, a mini Canary
:25:34. > :25:37.Wharf in Cardiff, what would you say? I would say it is partly about
:25:37. > :25:42.sales and marketing. The product that is Cardiff is a brilliant
:25:42. > :25:46.product. There is so much going for it in terms of culture and shopping
:25:46. > :25:49.and sport. And education facilities and everything that is interesting
:25:49. > :25:53.for people who have to make a decision about where to live often
:25:53. > :25:58.for the rest of their lives. The proximity to London and Heathrow.
:25:58. > :26:05.These are valuable assets. The quality of the workforce. The fact
:26:05. > :26:09.there are more financial graduates per capita in Cardiff than almost
:26:09. > :26:12.any city in the UK. You have got to get the story out there to the
:26:12. > :26:18.people in London who are making choices about where they are going
:26:18. > :26:23.to locate in future. Culturally, Admiral Insurance is an innovative
:26:23. > :26:27.business. It has a series of firsts to its name. The first insurance
:26:28. > :26:31.company to have a website, for example. You also have a profit-
:26:31. > :26:37.sharing system for staff. You have maintain that as you have grown
:26:37. > :26:42.into a very big company. How do you do that, get big at while at the
:26:42. > :26:46.same time maintaining the small- company dynamism? I will start with
:26:46. > :26:50.another first. We came first in the great places to work for
:26:50. > :26:54.competition which is great. We are really proud of that. It is
:26:54. > :26:59.testimony to the efforts of all of the staff. One of the really big
:26:59. > :27:03.challenges of growing from a start- up in the early Nineties to a
:27:03. > :27:09.multi- site operation. We have sides in Swansea and Newport now as
:27:09. > :27:14.well. How do you maintain the small company to be fun, enjoyable and
:27:14. > :27:18.involving? Fortunately, over the years, we have been able to do that.
:27:18. > :27:22.We have had to work at making people enjoying what they do and
:27:22. > :27:29.feel a sense of belonging. Partly it is about sharing the rewards.
:27:29. > :27:34.All of our staff get a minimum of �3,000 of shares a year. The fact
:27:34. > :27:38.they are part of the success I think is really important.
:27:38. > :27:41.there clouds on the horizon for Admiral Insurance given the
:27:41. > :27:44.announcements today that it is thinking about referring the entire
:27:44. > :27:50.car insurance market to the Competition Commission because it
:27:50. > :27:55.says referral fees are artificially boosting premiums for customers?
:27:55. > :27:59.Admiral Insurance relies more on referral fees than its rivals. Is
:28:00. > :28:04.your business model under threat? Absolutely not. We welcome the
:28:04. > :28:08.changes that are going to take place both on car hire which is the
:28:08. > :28:14.current thing that the OFT had been focused on and on legal referrals.
:28:14. > :28:18.It is a mad dysfunctional system that inflates the cost. We pay out
:28:18. > :28:25.a lot more in claims because of this this functionality than we
:28:25. > :28:30.received in referral fees. If you get the system working properly, at
:28:30. > :28:34.the end of the day, we are very happy. It is a little bit of a
:28:34. > :28:37.misconception that we rely on that business more than others. You are
:28:37. > :28:43.confident that this would not make you more vulnerable than your
:28:43. > :28:49.rivals? I notice your share price has taken a knock today. Or the
:28:49. > :28:56.insurer has received this sort of income. -- all of the Insurers. It
:28:56. > :29:00.is a bit of a misconception. The share price has only moved a little.
:29:00. > :29:07.Are you able to put a figure on how much of your profits are down to
:29:07. > :29:12.referral fees at the moment? make about �5 per policy holder per
:29:12. > :29:18.year on the car referral fees. On the other side of the equation, we
:29:18. > :29:22.pay more out in inflated car hire costs on our own claims. As I say,