:00:08. > :00:18.Is the Welsh economy suffering in the name of ideology? This is
:00:18. > :00:24.
:00:24. > :00:29.Good evening. Welsh businesses are missing out on over �2 billion
:00:29. > :00:32.worth of public contracts because of the Welsh Government's
:00:32. > :00:36.ideological antipathy and opposition, according to the
:00:36. > :00:40.employers organisation the CBI. It's told Dragon's Eye that
:00:40. > :00:43.businesses and services are sufferinging -- suffering because
:00:43. > :00:47.the Welsh Government is against using private companies to deliver
:00:47. > :00:51.public services. Arwyn Jones reports. Bong the Welsh Government
:00:51. > :00:55.and Councils spend billions every year and it goes on all kinds of
:00:55. > :01:00.services and goods, from furniture to litter collecting. It has to be
:01:00. > :01:05.paid for and it's big business worth nearly �4.5 billion every
:01:05. > :01:08.year. Some of those services are provided by councils in Wales, for
:01:08. > :01:14.example this recycling facility. What if businesses could over the
:01:14. > :01:19.same service? Perhaps offer it more cheaply, perhaps even offer a
:01:19. > :01:21.better service. At the moment around half of the money gez to
:01:21. > :01:25.businesses around Wales. The remainder stays in the public
:01:25. > :01:29.sector or goes to companies from elsewhere. The group representing
:01:29. > :01:33.business leaders in Wales the CBI says companies here are missing out
:01:33. > :01:38.on a key injection of cash, which could help them to grow their
:01:38. > :01:41.businesses, create jobs and drive the economy forward. They think the
:01:41. > :01:48.reason lies with the Welsh Government's political stance.
:01:48. > :01:53.jort of our members would feel that it's ideological and political. A
:01:53. > :01:56.few businesses would say there is an antipathy and opposition to
:01:56. > :02:01.using the private sector to deliver public services near Wales. That's
:02:01. > :02:05.probably the overriding factor for many. They say it's also harming
:02:05. > :02:10.public services. In many areas it could be delivered better, but I
:02:10. > :02:13.think people aren't prepared to sit down and find out how it could be
:02:13. > :02:18.delivered better, saving money, providing better service, because
:02:18. > :02:23.certain parts are just ideologically opposed to it.
:02:23. > :02:25.England, the UK Government want to see more of an open-door policy
:02:25. > :02:28.towards allowing businesses to deliver public services. It's
:02:28. > :02:32.something which should now come to here, according to the Secretary of
:02:32. > :02:37.State for Wales. I think the CBI has a very good point on this.
:02:37. > :02:41.There's no doubt about it, the ideology and the stated policy of
:02:41. > :02:45.the Welsh Government is to deliver through the state as a machine.
:02:45. > :02:48.That's such an old fashioned idea. It was interesting to read what the
:02:48. > :02:52.Prime Minister said the other day, when he was talking about opening
:02:52. > :02:58.up public services, which is what the UK Government wants to do.
:02:58. > :03:02.it isn't just about accusations of ideology. Others complain of too
:03:02. > :03:05.much bureaucracy in Wales. This company employs almost all workers
:03:05. > :03:10.locally. They've decided that Scotland is a more lucrative market
:03:10. > :03:14.because the process of working with the Government there is so much
:03:14. > :03:20.easier. Up in Scotland, according to our experience, there seems to
:03:20. > :03:24.be less delays within the planning process. That has meant that a lot
:03:24. > :03:27.of projects are in the development stage now and actually,
:03:27. > :03:33.construction stage now I mean, and are actually creating jobs for
:03:33. > :03:38.companies like us. We have managed to win a number of these contracts
:03:39. > :03:44.up there. If I was a businessman looking for a public sector
:03:44. > :03:53.contract in Wales the easiest thing to do is go onto this website. The
:03:53. > :03:56.Welsh Government we're told three years ago that every public sector
:03:56. > :04:00.contract should appear here. They say they've done. That but we're
:04:00. > :04:04.told it isn't always the case. This man made that recommendation. He
:04:04. > :04:08.says there needs to be a change of emphasis in how the purchasing
:04:09. > :04:14.power of the Welsh Government and Councils operate. The taxpayer
:04:14. > :04:18.always has to get value for money. That essential. But the key
:04:18. > :04:23.performance indicators by which procurement officials and officers
:04:23. > :04:27.are judged often just focus on that to the detriment of wider
:04:27. > :04:32.objectives. For example, what our research would suggest is that if
:04:32. > :04:36.the key performance indicators, the standards by which public sector
:04:36. > :04:40.purchasers are judged when they carry out procurement activity, if
:04:40. > :04:43.they were different, they might purchase differently. That could
:04:43. > :04:46.have more benefit for Wales. According to the CBI if the Welsh
:04:46. > :04:52.Government used more Welsh companies, it could create over
:04:52. > :04:56.20,000 jobs. That, at a time when they're dearly needed.
:04:56. > :05:00.Jane Hutt is the Welsh Government's Finance Minister. I asked whether
:05:00. > :05:03.the CBI's suggestion that the Welsh economy is suffering because
:05:03. > :05:11.ministers are ideologically opposed to the private sector delivering
:05:11. > :05:15.public services is true? Absolutely not. In fact, Emma Watkins gave a
:05:15. > :05:19.speech on procurement, because this is a key lever to grow the economy
:05:19. > :05:23.and said we were moving in the right direction. Clearly, our
:05:23. > :05:28.ambition for every public Welsh pound we have that should be there
:05:28. > :05:31.to support the economy and to support Wales-based businesses.
:05:32. > :05:36.Statistics prove we are making a difference. Currently Welsh
:05:36. > :05:42.business gets around 52% of the public procurement budget. Do you
:05:42. > :05:52.have a target to raise that? We've made progress because it was down
:05:52. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :06:00.to 35% in 2003. That's gone up to 52%. As Emma Watkins has said for
:06:00. > :06:05.every 1% you get a thousand jobs. In the latest statistics, when you
:06:05. > :06:10.look at SMEs and the fact that they are benefiting enormously out of
:06:10. > :06:15.public sector awards, if we looked at some of the money I announced
:06:15. > :06:19.with the Wales infrastructure investment plan, for example, RBED,
:06:19. > :06:22.an important regeneration scheme, a Welsh company, won that contract,
:06:22. > :06:28.huge opportunities for local business. I'm sure they're very
:06:28. > :06:33.pleased about that. But the fact is Emma Watkins is on Dragon's Eye
:06:33. > :06:38.this evening saying that according to some of her members the Welsh
:06:38. > :06:43.Government has ideological and political opposition to that. If
:06:43. > :06:47.that isn't true, are there robust targthaets you're aiming for to
:06:47. > :06:52.increase that, 52% of Welsh businesses getting the public
:06:52. > :06:59.procurement budget to a higher amount, for example,, a 10% rise
:06:59. > :07:03.would see an extra 10,000 jobs. Thafrpblgts would be excellent.
:07:03. > :07:08.We're working to reduce and remove those barriers to procurement.
:07:08. > :07:15.We've done good work on that and easing the way, simplyifying the
:07:15. > :07:19.way thaw actually bid, the pre- icalification process. -- Pre-
:07:19. > :07:22.qualification process. She said it's the outcomes we want, getting
:07:23. > :07:27.the businesses at the forefront. She's right when shez supporting
:07:27. > :07:32.the Welsh Government and wrong when she's criticised it? No, this is
:07:32. > :07:37.about working in partnership. She sits on the economic renewal
:07:37. > :07:43.council, along with the key players and they recognise, as we do, that
:07:43. > :07:47.procurement is a key lever. It's interesting because I've asked the
:07:47. > :07:50.Scottish businessman to come in and review our procurement to say are
:07:50. > :07:55.we moving fast enough? Because anything we can do, we want to make
:07:55. > :07:59.sure that Wales-based businesses secure those contracts. On that
:07:59. > :08:02.point, then, in your programme for government, you promised to
:08:02. > :08:06.implement the recommendations of a report designed tone sure that
:08:06. > :08:12.Welsh business had a better chance of getting a bigger slice of the
:08:12. > :08:20.cake. The author of that report has told us tonight that some parts of
:08:20. > :08:24.the tendering ro ses are simply unfit for -- process are unfit for
:08:24. > :08:28.purpose? He played an important part in assisting us and looking at
:08:28. > :08:32.the barriers to procurement. We now have an open doors charter. We have
:08:32. > :08:36.got the key policy in Wales which has been heralded as very
:08:36. > :08:41.progressive, the community benefits policy. That means that anyone who
:08:41. > :08:46.is investing, who does win contracts has an obligation to
:08:46. > :08:49.ensure there's a supply chain for local businesss to benefit and for
:08:49. > :08:54.local apprentices and also for the money to be spent in Wales and that
:08:54. > :08:58.was recognised in File on Four recreptly. All these people are
:08:58. > :09:04.crucial to help us achieve our objectives. You have to remember,
:09:04. > :09:09.we face a situation where we've had a 40% cut in capital budgets.
:09:09. > :09:14.That's why this is more important, isn't it? Absolutely. We're going
:09:14. > :09:20.to the private sector, for example, principality is coming in and
:09:20. > :09:26.funding our Welsh housing partnership. Thank you very much.
:09:26. > :09:30.A former employee of the All Wales Ethnic Minorities Association has
:09:30. > :09:40.won her tribunal against the organisation and the man who used
:09:40. > :09:41.
:09:41. > :09:48.to run it, Naz Malik. Sylvia Bobrowka claimed that Mr Malik
:09:48. > :09:50.(arecommenda was wound up earlier this year amid allegations of
:09:50. > :09:54.financial irregularities. I spoke to Sylvia Bobrowka's solicitor and
:09:54. > :10:00.asked him to explain the judgment. What has been decided by the
:10:00. > :10:05.tribunal on a unanimous basis is that the allegations that were made
:10:05. > :10:10.and the claim made against, brought by Sylvia Bobrowka on the grounds
:10:10. > :10:17.of harassment and victimisation have been well founded, both
:10:17. > :10:22.against the first and second Mr Malik personally. Now today, all
:10:22. > :10:26.you've had is the bare bones of it. The reasoning is to come later, as
:10:26. > :10:30.is any decision about financial compensation. Is Mr Malik
:10:30. > :10:35.personally liable for any award of financial compensation that might
:10:35. > :10:39.come? Yes, he is, on the basis that these are allegations of
:10:39. > :10:44.discrimination and harassment and victimisation forming part of that
:10:44. > :10:52.discrimination. That being the case, a person can be held personally
:10:52. > :11:02.flowing, if those allegations are made out as a result of
:11:02. > :11:34.
:11:34. > :11:37.-- What will happen now is that Miss Bobrowka will have the
:11:37. > :11:41.opportunity to reduce evidence to show the impact of what is had on
:11:41. > :11:46.her and that will take the form of medical evidence. She has suffered
:11:46. > :11:51.greatly as a result of this discriminatory behaviour. That is
:11:51. > :11:55.partly, the issue of causation is partly an issue of medical
:11:55. > :11:59.causation and of finding at the remedy hearing which is yet to be
:11:59. > :12:03.fixed. So, she says this experience has actually made her ill?
:12:03. > :12:08.Absolutely, yeah. What was her reaction to today's judgment,
:12:08. > :12:11.briefly? I have spoken to her this morning and firstly, she wants to
:12:11. > :12:16.make it clear and she's very appreciative of all the support
:12:16. > :12:23.she's been given by everybody, but from her position, of course, she
:12:23. > :12:26.welcomes this judgment and the fact it's unanimous judgment against the
:12:26. > :12:31.respondants, both AWEMA and Mr Malik.
:12:31. > :12:35.Thank you for joining us. As eurozone leaders prepare for
:12:35. > :12:39.another summit on the fate of the single currency, Dragon's Eye has
:12:39. > :12:45.discovered that the banking crisis in Spain is affecting banks in the
:12:45. > :12:49.UK. Some Welsh public bondies have pulled out of Santander UK. That's
:12:49. > :12:54.despite the company's assurances that their deposits are safe.
:12:54. > :12:58.Supporters say that the councils and universities involved are being
:12:58. > :13:02.prudent. Critics warn withdrawing funds from British banks isn't
:13:02. > :13:12.justified and can damage public confidence in the industry. Here's
:13:12. > :13:14.
:13:14. > :13:18.While eurozone leaders are betting on keeping the single currency
:13:18. > :13:21.together, the markets remain sceptical about the finances of
:13:21. > :13:26.many European nations and their banks. Spanish banks received a
:13:26. > :13:31.bail out from eurozone funds. And now it seems the banking crisis is
:13:31. > :13:35.having an impact closer to home. Public bodies like councils are
:13:35. > :13:39.under pressure to cut costs while maintaining services. Shrewd
:13:39. > :13:44.investment plays a part in helping them do that, but it is about
:13:44. > :13:48.finding the balance between risk and reward. Local authorities in
:13:49. > :13:53.many cases continue to use a select group of very strong foreign banks,
:13:53. > :13:56.Australian banks, Canadian banks and suchlike, but there has been a
:13:56. > :14:01.general movement away from European banks, particularly at the moment
:14:01. > :14:04.with the eurozone. There was more spare change in play when some
:14:04. > :14:09.Welsh public bodies found themselves short as Iceland's banks
:14:09. > :14:12.collapsed with taxpayer money tied up in them. They lost �74 million
:14:12. > :14:16.in the chaos that followed, although some has since been
:14:16. > :14:20.returned. If you look at the situation with banks across Europe,
:14:20. > :14:27.many are in a precarious position and it would be foolhardy to
:14:27. > :14:30.continue to invest in them. It has perhaps got the attention of local
:14:30. > :14:34.authorities to look at them this mince more closely. All 22 local
:14:34. > :14:38.operatives and most Welsh universities were protected from
:14:38. > :14:41.the media banking crisis in the eurozone by having no funds in
:14:41. > :14:48.Spanish or Greek banks. That might suggest public bodies have become
:14:48. > :14:55.less inclined to gamble on foreign investment. Miss University of a
:14:55. > :14:59.nominal sum of �20,000 in a Spanish bank. Most of the European banks,
:14:59. > :15:01.to varying degrees, particularly in bigger countries, are backed by
:15:01. > :15:05.their governments. Those governments themselves,
:15:05. > :15:10.particularly in the case of a country like Spain, look pretty
:15:10. > :15:13.secured regardless of the chaos and the markets. The so I think local
:15:13. > :15:18.authorities in Wales can be a bit more relaxed, I think, about many
:15:18. > :15:20.of the bigger countries and the banks in those countries, and can
:15:20. > :15:24.therefore earn slightly more of an interest rate than they will if
:15:24. > :15:29.they put it particularly in the Treasury's Debt Management Office,
:15:29. > :15:32.where they will be getting next to nothing. But it emerged that three
:15:32. > :15:35.was universities and four councils had stopped doing business with
:15:35. > :15:39.Santander a UK in recent months in response to the Spanish banking
:15:39. > :15:45.crisis. They include Bridgend, Fincher, Gwyneth and Monmouthshire
:15:45. > :15:49.councils, and Aberystwyth, and Swansea universities. When you that
:15:49. > :15:53.-- one university withdrew �1 million from Santander UK in
:15:53. > :15:57.January as the eurozone crisis deepened. Santander you cases it is
:15:57. > :16:00.ring-fenced from its Spanish parent company, meaning it could not take
:16:00. > :16:03.money out of Britain without the agreement of the British banking
:16:03. > :16:09.regulator. It also says that Santander has not received and does
:16:10. > :16:14.not need any bail out money from the eurozone nations. Public bodies,
:16:14. > :16:18.looking at what is going on in the world, probably feel a bit of their
:16:18. > :16:25.own anxiety. But the truth is that Santander is a well capitalised
:16:25. > :16:28.Spanish bank, and the British arm is a separate institution anyway.
:16:28. > :16:31.If they are being overly cautious it is no bad thing and they will be
:16:31. > :16:36.taking decisions with advice from their treasury management
:16:36. > :16:42.consultants. So it may be no bad thing. To try to say Santander
:16:42. > :16:45.sounds a bit Spanish, so let's keep clear of that, really is like third
:16:45. > :16:51.form financial planning, and not the sort of financial planning you
:16:51. > :16:54.would expect from the major public institutions. Really, what those
:16:54. > :16:59.institutions should be doing is taking the best of advice,
:16:59. > :17:05.certainly acting in a very prudent way, but at the same time relying
:17:05. > :17:10.upon the new, thermo regulatory arrangements that are in place. --
:17:10. > :17:14.firmer. Adopting a stance that says we will not deal with this bank
:17:14. > :17:20.because this bank seems to have a foreign name attached to it, really,
:17:20. > :17:24.that is pretty silly stuff. Critics warn that the run on Northern Rock
:17:24. > :17:26.in 2007, even though it was in no danger of collapsing after the
:17:26. > :17:30.Treasury and the Bank of England backed it, shows what can happen
:17:30. > :17:34.when the public loses confidence in a financial institution. Northern
:17:34. > :17:41.Rock was one of the first runs on any bank would have occurred in
:17:41. > :17:48.Great Britain for over a century. - - that had occurred. Local
:17:48. > :17:51.authorities have a role to play and that, in the seemingly not making a
:17:51. > :17:55.hasty withdrawals. I do not think local authorities are doing that.
:17:56. > :18:01.They are making sound investment decisions on the back of sound,
:18:01. > :18:04.expert advice from their treasury management consultants.
:18:04. > :18:08.financial crisis of recent years has highlighted the importance of
:18:08. > :18:13.confidence in fuelling the world's economy. There is a high price to
:18:13. > :18:18.pay if conference is damaged. I am joined by Professor Patrick
:18:18. > :18:22.Linford of Cardiff Business School and an economist. Welcome to both
:18:22. > :18:30.of you. Do you think that the organisations involved are over-
:18:30. > :18:33.reacting? I do not know how their deposits are distributed. It is
:18:33. > :18:38.perfectly reasonable to diversify your holdings, make sure you are
:18:38. > :18:42.not committed to a single institution. That said, I would be
:18:42. > :18:45.extremely astonished his Santander were any more vulnerable than most
:18:45. > :18:49.other commercial banks. But if Santander. It is a large
:18:49. > :18:53.international bank and most of its profits in recent years have been
:18:53. > :18:58.made in Mexico and Brazil. Of course, it is exposed to the
:18:58. > :19:03.Spanish economy, but not just the Spanish economy. As has been said,
:19:03. > :19:08.its British subsidiary, which it got by buying Abbey National, has a
:19:08. > :19:12.large UK business. I do not see any particular reason to single out
:19:12. > :19:16.Santander, but I do not blame people for looking at how their
:19:16. > :19:23.deposits are positioned and making sure they are diversified and put
:19:23. > :19:29.in safe places. Patrick Linford, what do you think? I agree with
:19:29. > :19:38.Gerry. Santander UK is essentially a British bank. You might as well
:19:38. > :19:43.take your money out of Barclays Bank, or RBS. I think, it is a case
:19:43. > :19:47.of panic, really, because it is associated with a Spanish bank, and
:19:47. > :19:51.yet it is a separate UK bank, effectively. What are your thoughts
:19:51. > :19:55.on what this tells us about the way the eurozone crisis has been
:19:55. > :19:59.managed to this point? In theory, the Spanish banks received a bail
:19:59. > :20:03.out from eurozone countries, but the markets did not seem to have
:20:03. > :20:09.much confidence in that. We are seeing another summit shortly to
:20:09. > :20:11.try to sort things out. Our examples of people doing things
:20:11. > :20:15.like this the automatic result of politicians' failure to get to
:20:15. > :20:21.grips with the crisis? The bank that is being bailed out in Spain
:20:21. > :20:25.is not Santander. It is Bankia, which is the result of an
:20:25. > :20:29.amalgamation of lots of local lending agencies which leant
:20:29. > :20:33.heavily on property, in cahoots with local authorities in Spain. So
:20:33. > :20:37.it is a highly political bad bank that has been put together out of
:20:37. > :20:43.all of these banks that made foolish loans, really, with local
:20:43. > :20:47.authority, local political involvement. So it is a very
:20:47. > :20:52.special situation. I do not think Santander air is particularly
:20:52. > :20:55.implicated in this. But in terms of the wider political fall-out of an
:20:55. > :20:59.ongoing eurozone crisis that the politicians do not seem to be
:20:59. > :21:04.getting to grips with, are these sorts of apparently irrational
:21:04. > :21:10.actions to be expected? Well, I'm afraid when you get a financial
:21:10. > :21:14.crisis people often acted in jumpy ways. So I do not know whether it
:21:14. > :21:18.is to be expected, but they are certainly not a major surprise. And
:21:18. > :21:24.I think it is the case that European politicians have failed to
:21:24. > :21:28.rise to this crisis and to address it at root. Therefore, I think
:21:28. > :21:33.there is every prospect that this grumbling appendix will go on
:21:33. > :21:38.grumbling. Of course, we did see some Welsh public bodies burned in
:21:38. > :21:48.the Icelandic banking crash, didn't we? Has that made people over-
:21:48. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :21:57.cautious, that experience? Yes. This Euro crisis will go on and on.
:21:57. > :22:00.-- euro there is no resolution in sight. It is quite a different
:22:00. > :22:04.thing putting money in European banks directly and putting it into
:22:04. > :22:09.a branch in the UK which is essentially ring-fenced and a
:22:09. > :22:13.separate entity. They ought to distinguish those things. Do you
:22:13. > :22:17.agree? You have said it is sensible to diversify the portfolio and
:22:17. > :22:21.perhaps that is all that is going on. But if the reason is a concern
:22:21. > :22:25.about what is happening in the Spanish banks, something Santander
:22:25. > :22:29.a UK is protected from, are you concerned at the level of financial
:22:30. > :22:33.advice that some public bodies in Wales are getting? Yes, it sounds
:22:33. > :22:41.as if they could do with some more professional advice. But does sound
:22:41. > :22:48.to be the case. -- that does sound to be the case. And your thoughts?
:22:48. > :22:50.I agree, they are misinformed. Thank you for joining us.
:22:50. > :22:55.The Welsh Secretary and her Labour shadow are having a row over when
:22:55. > :22:58.and how to hold a debate discussing proposed changes to Assembly
:22:58. > :23:02.constituency boundaries. The Labour's Owen Smith was pressing
:23:02. > :23:05.for a debate on the floor of the House of Commons Chamber. Sarah
:23:06. > :23:11.Gillan offered him a slot at a special session of the Welsh Grand
:23:11. > :23:17.Committee at 11:30am on Monday. He objected, she cancelled. This is
:23:17. > :23:23.Mrs Gillan's side of the story. Well, it was cancelled because the
:23:23. > :23:26.Labour Party objected to it when it was put in the Order Paper. And I
:23:26. > :23:32.know the new Shadow Secretary of State is trying to make his mark
:23:32. > :23:35.but this is really not the way to do it. It is a green paper. It is
:23:35. > :23:40.there for discussion. It is not even a white paper and it is not
:23:40. > :23:44.legislation. I have been perfectly open about it. I wanted to offer an
:23:44. > :23:48.opportunity to Welsh MPs to discuss this, because I have always
:23:48. > :23:52.supported the Welsh Grande, unlike previous Labour governments who
:23:52. > :23:56.have tried to push it into obscurity. I have tried to hold it
:23:56. > :24:01.on a regular basis. Frankly, the rumour came back that they were
:24:01. > :24:05.going to boycott it and then 11:30am was too early. Frankly, a
:24:05. > :24:08.Labour government did hold a Welsh Grand Committee at 10:30am on
:24:08. > :24:14.Monday, but it would seem the modern Labour MP does not really
:24:14. > :24:19.like to get up and get to work on Monday for 11:30am. After all, the
:24:19. > :24:23.house sits on Monday to Thursday, five days a week. But it was not
:24:23. > :24:29.worth having if they were objecting to it. Quite frankly, I cancelled
:24:29. > :24:34.it. Owen Smith is Cheryl Gillan's Labour shadow. I asked whether this
:24:34. > :24:37.was about a new shadow Welsh Secretary trying to make his mark.
:24:37. > :24:41.No. It is about the fact that we have an important suggestion from
:24:41. > :24:46.Cheryl Gillan in a white paper that we change the voting arrangements
:24:46. > :24:50.for people in Wales. I felt that was such a significant
:24:50. > :24:54.constitutional change that we ought to be debating it on the floor of
:24:54. > :24:58.the House of Commons in Westminster, where ordinarily constitutional
:24:58. > :25:03.issues would be debated, as opposed to in a Welsh Grand Committee. So I
:25:03. > :25:07.wrote to her and suggested we do that. And she surprised us by not
:25:07. > :25:11.even responding to my letter but simply scheduling on a Monday
:25:11. > :25:18.morning the Welsh Grand Committee. Let me scotched this nonsense that
:25:18. > :25:24.it is anything to do with the hour at which she had tabled the Grand
:25:24. > :25:27.Committee. We would have debated it at any time. It was entirely to do
:25:27. > :25:32.with the location and the prominence we felt this issue ought
:25:32. > :25:37.to have been given. And quite why Cheryl Gillan has been reduced to
:25:37. > :25:41.this sort of school ground name calling around what ought to be an
:25:41. > :25:45.important issue of substance debate on the floor of the House of
:25:45. > :25:50.Commons with the due prominence that it deserves, is beyond me.
:25:50. > :25:55.you threaten to boycott? No. I do not know where she gets that from.
:25:55. > :25:58.It is some room she has heard. I simply wrote a letter, released to
:25:58. > :26:03.the press, in which I suggest that it was an important issue which
:26:03. > :26:06.should be debated on the floor of the house in Government time. It is
:26:06. > :26:10.a Government green paper. She says it is not legislation. It is a
:26:10. > :26:14.curious green paper because it only has two options, one of which is
:26:14. > :26:20.not really a realistic option, which is to reorganise the seats in
:26:20. > :26:23.Wales but still stick with 40 and 20 and do not will arrive at a
:26:23. > :26:27.point of it being coterminous with the boundaries marrying up with the
:26:27. > :26:34.new parliamentary boundaries she is proposing. Or else the option she
:26:34. > :26:38.favours - 30 seats on the list, 30 seats through PR and 30 seats
:26:38. > :26:42.directly elected first past the post. Why does she favour that?
:26:42. > :26:46.Because it would favour her party. It is a partisan, self-interested
:26:46. > :26:49.proposal they brought forward. We wanted to expose that on the floor
:26:49. > :26:54.of the house and expose the gerrymandering that is being
:26:54. > :26:59.proposed in respect of the Assembly boundaries, as has been proposed
:26:59. > :27:03.for the parliamentary boundaries. Could you not also be accused of
:27:03. > :27:07.partisan political interest? A reduction in the number of
:27:07. > :27:11.constituencies is damaging to the Labour Party specifically, isn't it,
:27:11. > :27:16.when we talk about first past the post elected constituent MPs? This
:27:16. > :27:19.is about protecting Labour's interests in Wales, isn't it?
:27:19. > :27:24.think it is damaging to Wales to reduce the volume of voices from
:27:24. > :27:29.Wales are able to speak for Wales from whichever party at Westminster.
:27:29. > :27:33.Cutting back from 40 to 30 reduces our voice in Westminster, and
:27:33. > :27:37.devolution was meant to amplify our voice in Britain, not reduce it.
:27:37. > :27:41.That is something Cheryl Gillan has never understood. This is not about
:27:41. > :27:45.parliament boundaries, it is about Assembly boundaries and the fact
:27:45. > :27:49.that she is trying, on the quiet, to slip through Parliament
:27:49. > :27:54.proposals to reduce the numbers of Assembly members, or to change the
:27:54. > :27:58.nature of the election of Assembly members. Surely, in any year of
:27:58. > :28:02.devolution, she ought to feel that, even if the letter of the law is
:28:02. > :28:07.clear that she can do this if she wants, if she wants to drive it
:28:07. > :28:10.through with a Tory majority in Westminster, she ought not to. She
:28:10. > :28:13.ought to seek the consent of the National Assembly when it comes to
:28:13. > :28:17.making changes that only relate to the National Assembly and the
:28:17. > :28:22.people of Wales. It is a measure of her disdain for the National
:28:22. > :28:25.Assembly that she has not sought to do that properly. Thank you.
:28:25. > :28:32.Apologies for my slip of the tongue. I didn't mean to say Assembly
:28:32. > :28:36.members, rather than MPs. Once, I got my own name wrong, believe it
:28:36. > :28:40.or not! Who knows what I will do next week? Join me to find out.