:00:00. > :00:10.Hello and welcome to the King's Gate conference centre in Peterborough.
:00:11. > :00:13.Next week we go to the polls in what is arguably the most important
:00:14. > :00:17.election for generations and what's turning out to be an extraordinary
:00:18. > :00:22.election too. Tonight, this audience gets the opportunity to ask our
:00:23. > :00:35.panel the questions that matter to people here in the East.
:00:36. > :00:57.Here with me are Brandon Lewis for the Conservatives, Martin Schmearer
:00:58. > :01:01.for the Green Party, Norman Lamb for the Lib Dems, Patrick O' Flynn for
:01:02. > :01:10.Ukip and Clive Lewis for Labour. If you want to join in the conversation
:01:11. > :01:15.you can at #Bbceastdebate. First question from
:01:16. > :01:19.Margaret Ridley? The three acute hospitals in Cambridgeshire have had
:01:20. > :01:22.some of the worst declines in A performance and delayed transfers of
:01:23. > :01:30.care in the country. What would you do about this? Brandon Lewis? I
:01:31. > :01:32.think one of the key things is to remember with all of the Health
:01:33. > :01:36.Service we've got some fantastic people working here, so we want to
:01:37. > :01:39.make sure they've got the support there, making sure that we can get
:01:40. > :01:43.the money into the NHS that it needs to be able to two forward. I'm very
:01:44. > :01:50.proud of the fact we have seen that money in cash increase year on year
:01:51. > :01:52.in the NHS and actually move power into the Clinical Commissioning
:01:53. > :01:56.Groups. But also going forward, we need to be able to back the plan and
:01:57. > :02:00.the requests to put that extra ?8 billion in as we go forward. To do
:02:01. > :02:04.that, we have to make sure we have a strong economy to be able to do
:02:05. > :02:07.that. It's teams and all of the Health Service teams can have that
:02:08. > :02:12.stability and plan for the future. Clive Lewis? The Labour Party have
:02:13. > :02:16.said we'll invest an extra ?30 billion over the next five years
:02:17. > :02:20.into the NHS. We are clear the issue with the NHS isn't just about money,
:02:21. > :02:23.as important as that is, it's also about staff and staff moshl and I
:02:24. > :02:26.think anyone that goes into the NHS knows that it's start that are
:02:27. > :02:31.holding our health care system together. That is why we've said
:02:32. > :02:36.that we'll end the 1% pay cap which is in effect a real terms pay cut
:02:37. > :02:39.for the staff and make sure they have the support they need and
:02:40. > :02:43.deserve. I think it's frankly outrageous that nurses are forced to
:02:44. > :02:52.go to food banks, it's unacceptable in the 21st century. Investment yes
:02:53. > :02:56.but also making sure that elderly social care is taken care of. These
:02:57. > :03:01.cuts aren't working, they are costing more as more pressure goes
:03:02. > :03:05.on to the acute side of the NHS. So a unified joined up NHS and elderly
:03:06. > :03:08.social care system and also reversing the cuts to local
:03:09. > :03:11.authorities where so much of the care that is needed actually should
:03:12. > :03:17.be taking place and that's I think quite important. You say you'll
:03:18. > :03:22.commit ?30 billion to the NHS. If it's not about money, then that's a
:03:23. > :03:25.lot of money isn't it? Last night we saw Theresa May talk and say that it
:03:26. > :03:30.isn't just about funding when it comes to the police and the NHS and
:03:31. > :03:35.schools. I think quite clearly money does come into it. It doesn't mean
:03:36. > :03:47.you can't do things differently and better joined And unified. Patrick
:03:48. > :03:51.O' Flynn. Clive should make clear that the figure is ?6 billion a
:03:52. > :03:55.year. It's a bit odd coming from Ukip that I'm able to outbid Clive.
:03:56. > :04:01.We'll put in by the final year of the next Parliament ?11 billion into
:04:02. > :04:05.the NHS. On top of the ?350 million? Add on social care. Nothing to do
:04:06. > :04:09.with the referendum in this context. We have a fully costed plan because
:04:10. > :04:14.we are the one party that takes the tough decisions and makes the tough
:04:15. > :04:16.calls in the public about unnecessary spending programmes so
:04:17. > :04:20.we'll be reigning back the foreign aid budget which is due under all
:04:21. > :04:23.these other parties to top ?15 billion at the end of the next
:04:24. > :04:29.Parliament to about ?4 billion. We want to see the foreign aid budget
:04:30. > :04:33.go down and the NHS budget go up. There's a massive capacity problem
:04:34. > :04:38.in the NHS. If you lack at the statistics for the demand on
:04:39. > :04:42.accident and emergency, it really is leaping forward hugely every year
:04:43. > :04:46.and another part of that is, we are losing too many GPs, so the primary
:04:47. > :04:50.care system is under a lot of pressure and we want to have some
:04:51. > :04:55.innovative plans to bring back some of the GPs we've lost in recent
:04:56. > :04:59.years into the profession. Martin? It's quite clear that the NHS is a
:05:00. > :05:05.fundamental British institution, it is one of the great things about
:05:06. > :05:09.Britain. It has been since its inception in the 1940s. It still is
:05:10. > :05:13.today. But it is about money, about the billions that we need to invest
:05:14. > :05:16.in our National Health Service to make sure that we deal with
:05:17. > :05:21.prevention and then of course with cure. At the moment, under the
:05:22. > :05:27.Conservative Government, there is not enough money to go around. In
:05:28. > :05:32.the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital, for example, the A department was
:05:33. > :05:38.built for 60,000 people each year, it's now seeing about 120,000 people
:05:39. > :05:40.and it's the staff, the doctors nurses, occupational therapists,
:05:41. > :05:44.that are keeping the system afloat. ? You say that you will have an
:05:45. > :05:49.immediate cash injection for the NHS. Yes. These people are at least
:05:50. > :05:53.putting figures on it, what is yours? I believe it's about ?20
:05:54. > :05:59.billion and I think that is absolutely needed. Is that over five
:06:00. > :06:05.years? One year. I believe it's over the full five years. What we also
:06:06. > :06:11.need to do is the percentage of GDP, we need to increase it. At the
:06:12. > :06:15.moment we spend about 9-10% of our GDP on health care. Germany spends
:06:16. > :06:22.about 11%, but what do they get more? At the moment, the figures say
:06:23. > :06:27.that the UK has 2.7 beds per thousand people in this country, in
:06:28. > :06:31.Germany, the figure is 8.2 beds per thousand people so a small amount of
:06:32. > :06:34.money more does go a long, long way to ensuring that we have the health
:06:35. > :06:41.system that we really need and deserve. Norman Lamb, you put a
:06:42. > :06:44.penny on income tax? We would. Margaret, you are absolutely right
:06:45. > :06:49.to highlight the massive pressure that the whole system is under.
:06:50. > :06:54.There are consequences for real people here. I've been dealing with
:06:55. > :06:58.a case recently where a couple have been left with the wife in enormous
:06:59. > :07:05.pain waiting for a hip operation, told she'd have to wait 26 weeks.
:07:06. > :07:09.Now, that couple have paid nearly ?20,000 for a private operation
:07:10. > :07:13.because they couldn't stand the wait any longer. Many people can't afford
:07:14. > :07:17.that. I don't want to live in a country where people who have money
:07:18. > :07:22.can get access to health care quickly and everybody else is left
:07:23. > :07:27.waiting. I think that's a shameful situation and it undermines the
:07:28. > :07:31.basic fundamental principles of our NHS that everyone gets access to
:07:32. > :07:38.care when they need it regardless of their ability to pay. I do also
:07:39. > :07:43.think, just like Clive, that we cannot sustain the NHS year after
:07:44. > :07:47.year on the basis of nurses taking a real terms cut in pay. That's what's
:07:48. > :07:52.happening. I don't think you can justify that. I think we must be
:07:53. > :07:58.willing to pay our public servants properly and to ensure that their
:07:59. > :08:00.pay isn't cut year on year. So we would make that investment. We would
:08:01. > :08:05.increase tax by a penny in the pound. That's equivalent to less
:08:06. > :08:08.than two coffees for someone on average earnings per week. But I
:08:09. > :08:14.think that probably if we all think about it for a moment, we all want
:08:15. > :08:17.to ensure that health care is there for ourselves and our loved ones
:08:18. > :08:21.when we need it and we shouldn't have these appalling long waits.
:08:22. > :08:24.When you talk about mental health as well, the waits there are appalling
:08:25. > :08:27.and we have to address that as a matter of priority.
:08:28. > :08:33.APPLAUSE. Let me come back to Margaret. Does
:08:34. > :08:37.that answer your question? Well, we've heard views from the different
:08:38. > :08:41.parties, but I would just like to say if this Government gets in
:08:42. > :08:45.again, that is the end of the NHS. APPLAUSE.
:08:46. > :08:52.The gentleman in the front row in the shirt there? We have a lot of
:08:53. > :09:00.people using our NHS service. We've got people coming from all over the
:09:01. > :09:07.world to use our service and they're not paying anything into it. It's a
:09:08. > :09:14.National Health Service, not an international Health Service. The
:09:15. > :09:18.lady behind you? Can I just say that I'm recently retired as a social
:09:19. > :09:22.worker and to hear the Tories talk about in real terms they're putting
:09:23. > :09:26.in extra money, I can assure everybody here that the cuts have
:09:27. > :09:30.been made to social care over the last seven years have been
:09:31. > :09:37.absolutely devastating for social care and the knock-on to the NHS
:09:38. > :09:41.because people are waiting over a million waiting for social care at
:09:42. > :09:45.the moment in this country, it's a scandal in the sixth wealthiest
:09:46. > :09:50.country in the world. This also has a knock-on. Austerity has a huge
:09:51. > :09:54.knock-on effect on the mental health of the nation I believe. I think
:09:55. > :09:58.that's something that's not being addressed and needs to be addressed.
:09:59. > :10:04.APPLAUSE. Brandon Lewis? Margaret Ridley said
:10:05. > :10:10.the Conservatives will be the end of the NHS. Unsurprisingly, I don't
:10:11. > :10:14.agree with that. We believe in investing in it and having an
:10:15. > :10:18.economy that is strong enough to deal with it. We have got to deal
:10:19. > :10:21.with the point the lady raised about social care. We have to also
:10:22. > :10:25.understand that we are not living in a vehicle European Union where there
:10:26. > :10:34.was never an economic crash. We have had to make some very tough
:10:35. > :10:40.decisions, Local Government took its fair share of the changes and cuts.
:10:41. > :10:46.We are the party that is coming forward with a clear plan and being
:10:47. > :10:50.upfront. We need to be able to provide for people. We have two
:10:51. > :10:55.million more people going into social care in the next decade or
:10:56. > :10:58.so. The crash was ten years ago nearly, nine-and-a-half years ago.
:10:59. > :11:03.APPLAUSE. Absolutely. Let's remember how bad
:11:04. > :11:08.it was. We ended up with a deficit of ?151 billion. We've now got it
:11:09. > :11:13.down to ?50 billion was still have it. That's how bad it was. A quick
:11:14. > :11:18.word from Norman Lamb then the next question. The Conservatives are
:11:19. > :11:22.planning to spend on health and care and whenever you are that makes no
:11:23. > :11:26.sense at all. The plans for care for elderly people which will mean that
:11:27. > :11:31.very many people receiving care in their homes, their own homes, will
:11:32. > :11:35.start to have to pay typically ?15,000 a year or more if you have
:11:36. > :11:40.complex needs, I just think it's incredible. It's a total betrayal of
:11:41. > :11:43.older people. I introduced a cap on care costs when I was minister with
:11:44. > :11:47.Conservative support. They committed to implement it and they've gone
:11:48. > :11:56.back on it and that's outrageous. APPLAUSE.
:11:57. > :12:00.We will move on. Our next question from Hano Kakosh. Is it not
:12:01. > :12:04.important for an economy to offer free access to universities for the
:12:05. > :12:11.best people to be able to compete on a global market? Patrick O' Flynn
:12:12. > :12:15.Yes it's important. That's why we need a points-based immigration
:12:16. > :12:19.scheme which sorts out the very best most able and highly skilled people
:12:20. > :12:25.and prioritises them to come into this country. That is why we in Ukip
:12:26. > :12:29.believe we need a moratorium on low skilled and high skilled people
:12:30. > :12:34.coming into work who may work very hard but their tax contributions
:12:35. > :12:37.simply don't cover their consumption of Public Services and consumption
:12:38. > :12:43.of in-work benefits too for that matter. We in this country a are
:12:44. > :12:46.adding to our population by at least 250,000 ofry single year and we have
:12:47. > :12:51.been doing that since 2004 really since the turn of the century. That
:12:52. > :12:55.is unsustainable, it's had a terrible pressure on access to
:12:56. > :12:59.Public Services, on social cohesion too and I'm proud that Ukip is the
:13:00. > :13:05.one party in this election that really is the low immigration party.
:13:06. > :13:15.We are offering people a choice to vote for lower immigration. What
:13:16. > :13:20.about access to free universities so you get the best students? Well, I
:13:21. > :13:25.took the questioner as talking about academics and experts but in terms
:13:26. > :13:29.of under-graduates, absolutely not. We cannot offer that. When we leave
:13:30. > :13:33.the EU, we'll be able to come away from that system of having to offer
:13:34. > :13:37.every European student the same support package we do for British
:13:38. > :13:42.students and so in Ukip that's led us to put forward a costed plan to
:13:43. > :13:46.take stem students all together out of tuition fees and to bring back
:13:47. > :13:50.maintenance grants for low-income students in this country. We'll put
:13:51. > :13:54.British students first. Norman Lamb? First of all on the point about
:13:55. > :13:58.students coming from overseas, we should absolutely be open to
:13:59. > :14:03.ensuring that we get the best students from around the world.
:14:04. > :14:07.APPLAUSE. I just find it frankly extraordinary
:14:08. > :14:13.that the Prime Minister seeks to restrict the number of foreign
:14:14. > :14:17.students. This is an enormous export earner for our country. People come
:14:18. > :14:20.to our universities and go back to their own countries and they think
:14:21. > :14:26.well of the UK as a result of being here so it's good soft diplomacy as
:14:27. > :14:30.well. In terms of the funding of students for university, well, we've
:14:31. > :14:38.got the scars to show for this whole issue in Government. The truth is
:14:39. > :14:41.that this is difficult and if you offer free university education, the
:14:42. > :14:50.danger is that you then in terms of being able to fund it start to
:14:51. > :14:53.refund reduced access to universities -- start to fund
:14:54. > :14:56.reduced access to universities. We had a choice in the coalition,
:14:57. > :15:01.change to increased fees repayable on the basis of your ability to pay
:15:02. > :15:04.or we reduced funding for universities and we thought that
:15:05. > :15:08.that would be a big mistake because it would always be youngsters from
:15:09. > :15:13.poorer backgrounds who lost out as a result of that. So with the changes
:15:14. > :15:16.we made, we have ensured that repayments are strictly based on
:15:17. > :15:20.your ability to pay, so if you are rich, you pay a lot, if you are on a
:15:21. > :15:26.low-income as a graduate, you pay much less. But we have ensured
:15:27. > :15:30.continued funding for universities which has ensured that they remain
:15:31. > :15:33.world class. That is incredibly important for our country's future.
:15:34. > :15:38.Would you charge anybody who comes from overseas? Yes, of course.
:15:39. > :15:42.Anybody? Whether they are from a poorer background with great
:15:43. > :15:44.intellect or not? Well at the moment students from other countries
:15:45. > :15:47.sometimes funded by their own Governments pay fees to come to our
:15:48. > :15:53.universities and I think that's rite. The gentleman on the front row
:15:54. > :16:00.in the brown shirt? Yes. Why not a graduate tax? I think in effect the
:16:01. > :16:04.system now is akin to a graduate tax because your repayments are based on
:16:05. > :16:08.your ability to pay so that bankers and lawyers and accountants and so
:16:09. > :16:12.forth on very high earnings pay a huge amount back but people, care
:16:13. > :16:16.workers and so forth who receive low earnings as a result of their
:16:17. > :16:21.following their degrees, actually pay back less than they used to. So
:16:22. > :16:25.it's strictly based on your ability to pay and it was deemed to be a
:16:26. > :16:29.progressive system when it was independently analysed. Martin you
:16:30. > :16:33.were shaking your head? I was because with respect Norman I think
:16:34. > :16:37.that's trying to rewrite history. It was never a graduate tax, it was
:16:38. > :16:43.simply ?9,000 a year being forced on to all students. We in the Green
:16:44. > :16:47.Party think that education is a right, not a privilege, that is not
:16:48. > :16:51.a cliche, it's a fact, whether you are eight years old or 18. Education
:16:52. > :16:55.should be free and remain free. That is something we in the Green Party
:16:56. > :17:01.would be campaigning for. Yes it would cost us ?8 billion, but the
:17:02. > :17:05.simple fact is that by investing in young people, by educating people
:17:06. > :17:09.like British universities which include Cambridge, Oxford and some
:17:10. > :17:12.of the greatest institutions in the world, we are creating a new
:17:13. > :17:16.generation of people who're going to be paying more tax and be creating
:17:17. > :17:24.the economy that we all would like to see.
:17:25. > :17:32.APPLAUSE. The lady in the red dress? I want to
:17:33. > :17:35.ask Norman, you said you'd support education and it should be free. I
:17:36. > :17:42.can give you an example of myself. I'm over 40. I wanted to be a
:17:43. > :17:46.professional chef just for my education in this country but I
:17:47. > :17:51.couldn't afford it because of the course, it was ?9,000 to do it. I
:17:52. > :17:59.couldn't afford ?9,000 to do it. Then I had to drop it. I had to look
:18:00. > :18:05.for something else. So this one is not true that it's free, it's not
:18:06. > :18:12.free. Brandon Lewis? We haven't heard from you? Aagree with quite a
:18:13. > :18:16.bit of what Norman said. The reality is, if someone goes to university,
:18:17. > :18:21.they repay the loan effectively afterwards, based on what they earn.
:18:22. > :18:25.The higher earners pay it back, the low earners don't pay it back. I've
:18:26. > :18:29.always thought there was a second benefit from this as we move
:18:30. > :18:34.forward. Let's be clear about the facts firstly, more people from
:18:35. > :18:38.deprived backgrounds are going into university since this scheme came
:18:39. > :18:42.in. There is another thing for the students going into it. It's about
:18:43. > :18:46.making sure, and I paid to go to university as well so I've been
:18:47. > :18:49.through this and had to pay for it. You think about, not just what you
:18:50. > :18:54.want to study but the place you are going to study and what they offer
:18:55. > :19:01.you as a consumer choosing where to go and what kind of division time,
:19:02. > :19:06.what face Time you get with your tutors and lecturers so you can make
:19:07. > :19:12.a conscious decision about how you invest in the money that you get for
:19:13. > :19:17.your own. -- your loan. Which is exactly the problem. I'm proud of my
:19:18. > :19:23.party and the manifesto because we now see education, not as a
:19:24. > :19:27.commodity but as something that everyone is entitled to. We have
:19:28. > :19:32.said that if you want to have an education, whether a university
:19:33. > :19:36.education, a further education at college, whether you are an adult
:19:37. > :19:39.learner or want to go back to college, we'll make it free at the
:19:40. > :19:44.point of use. You are making a decision to invest in yourself and
:19:45. > :19:47.the future of this country. We are saying if you want to invest in the
:19:48. > :19:51.infrastructure of this country, its people are critical to that. If you
:19:52. > :19:56.want to pay back more and have a higher education, you will pay back
:19:57. > :19:59.more. I kind of think moving away from the concept of education as a
:20:00. > :20:02.commodity and consumers, I'm happy with that because I think the vast
:20:03. > :20:07.majority of people in this country understand that education is a
:20:08. > :20:11.right, not a privilege and it's something that will benefit our
:20:12. > :20:14.economy and this country and I'm proud of the fact we'll make
:20:15. > :20:21.education free at the point of use. APPLAUSE.
:20:22. > :20:25.The young lady there? I would like to say that I do feel like some of
:20:26. > :20:30.you are treating this as if us students, we are leaving university
:20:31. > :20:34.with only a couple of grand of debt. The average student is leaving
:20:35. > :20:38.university with ?44,000 of debt, OK, so we are having to basically work
:20:39. > :20:42.for a couple of years just to pay that off. The majority of us don't
:20:43. > :20:45.even get the chance to pay that off because we are entering low-paid
:20:46. > :20:52.jobs. I believe the only party that are going to get us out of this mess
:20:53. > :20:57.are Labour. The person behind you? Is the
:20:58. > :21:01.Conservative Party pledging to introduce more grammar schools, a
:21:02. > :21:04.step back to the days of inquestion quality? I would be interested to
:21:05. > :21:09.hear the Conservative Party on that? No, I don't agree. I will answer
:21:10. > :21:14.this, but also the lady's point, it's not how the system works. So
:21:15. > :21:17.when you leave university, you'll pay that loan back as, when and if
:21:18. > :21:22.you earn the money to be able to pay it back. That is why it works as a
:21:23. > :21:25.good structure that funds it. In terms of grammar schools, it's
:21:26. > :21:28.absolutely the right policy. Particularly when you look at some
:21:29. > :21:31.of the opportunities that can come through from having that opportunity
:21:32. > :21:35.of better and better schools coming through and some pupils who've got
:21:36. > :21:38.that ability having the chance to access that, particularly if they
:21:39. > :21:42.don't have the ability to pay for private education or don't have that
:21:43. > :21:48.option available which in my part of the world is the case. A last short
:21:49. > :21:51.comment from you? All the evidence suggests that increasing grammar
:21:52. > :21:54.schools around our country will increase inequality, not reduce it.
:21:55. > :22:01.Hear, hear. APPLAUSE.
:22:02. > :22:04.At the age of 11, I failed the 11-plus, deemed a failure at that
:22:05. > :22:09.age. Had I lived on the other side of town from where we did live, I
:22:10. > :22:12.would have gone to an old-fashioned secondary modern school. I would
:22:13. > :22:17.have been written off at the age of 11. As it happens, I was lucky
:22:18. > :22:20.enough to go to a new comprehensive that had just been built, and then I
:22:21. > :22:23.managed to do all right for myself. I don't want a return to the days
:22:24. > :22:27.where children are written off at the age of 11. That's what the
:22:28. > :22:27.Conservatives planned. Pleaseth
:22:28. > :22:39.APPLAUSE. . Next question from Cameron? Hole?
:22:40. > :22:45.How does your party propose to tackle immigration? It's all about
:22:46. > :22:49.getting the right balance. We have to listen and accept and understand
:22:50. > :22:54.what the message was from the referendum campaign and one of the
:22:55. > :23:01.things that I think we have to focus on in this country is giving skills
:23:02. > :23:06.to youngsters who don't have the benefits of going to university but
:23:07. > :23:11.are too often written off when they leave school with no qualifications
:23:12. > :23:16.and it's been too easy to get low-cost labour. We have to give our
:23:17. > :23:19.own youngsters the chance to get the qualifications they need so they can
:23:20. > :23:23.compete in a competitive market. They have to recognise that there is
:23:24. > :23:26.a need for workers from other countries to come here to work for
:23:27. > :23:33.example in our health and care system. In the Norfolk and Norwich
:23:34. > :23:37.Hospital that serves my area of Norfolk, there are around 400 people
:23:38. > :23:42.working there from other EU countries. Now, these people have
:23:43. > :23:51.chosen to come to this country to give of their best, to serve our
:23:52. > :23:55.citizens in this country and not to have guaranteed their right to stay
:23:56. > :23:57.here now I think is outrageous. We should guarantee their right to stay
:23:58. > :24:04.so that they have security and knowledge that they and their
:24:05. > :24:09.children can stay? On that last point, it's a rare moment of
:24:10. > :24:12.agreement. It's in our manifesto, 160,000 EU NHS workers we'd
:24:13. > :24:17.absolutely give the right to stay, no conditions whatsoever. But
:24:18. > :24:21.really, we've had added to our population about four million since
:24:22. > :24:25.the turn of the century. It's an unsustainable position, I was glad
:24:26. > :24:29.to hear Norman acknowledge the pressure on low-paid workers in
:24:30. > :24:34.their job opportunities and their stagnant wages that's gone on. We
:24:35. > :24:39.need to grasp this nettle. It demands political will power and
:24:40. > :24:43.Ukip's oftening a policy of balanced migration over a five-year period.
:24:44. > :24:47.Roughly law of large numbers, we have 600,000 people a year coming
:24:48. > :24:51.here and 300,000 people a year leaving, so we are not saying pull
:24:52. > :24:55.up the draw bridge but we are saying there has to be a much greater
:24:56. > :24:59.degree of discernment about who we let in, people with the right apt
:25:00. > :25:04.Tuesday to add to our economy but also people with the right attitudes
:25:05. > :25:09.to blend in with our society and values -- right aptitudes to add to
:25:10. > :25:12.our economy. You would, would you not, if somebody breaks the law,
:25:13. > :25:17.they would not be allowed to stay, is that right? Well, if it was a
:25:18. > :25:23.significant criminal offence. So who would decide what kind of level that
:25:24. > :25:27.is at? Well, you are talking about the admittedly prospect of a Ukip
:25:28. > :25:32.government, that would be set in the Home Office by civil servants in
:25:33. > :25:38.terms of it being a kind of perhaps a crown court level offence. OK.
:25:39. > :25:43.Martin? I speak as a first generation immigrant myself, born in
:25:44. > :25:48.Germany, lived here all my life, hence why you probably can't tell it
:25:49. > :25:52.through my accent. I'm one of those people left in limbo and uncertainty
:25:53. > :25:56.because of Brexit. I would like to make the case that immigrants play a
:25:57. > :26:02.positive role in our society. Most of whom do come here, do work hard,
:26:03. > :26:06.do contribute to the economy, and contribute about ?2 billion surplus
:26:07. > :26:10.every year. Why should we jeopardise them? Why should we put their
:26:11. > :26:15.livelihoods and question that? Why should we question their commitment
:26:16. > :26:22.to this country? Gentleman in the third row in the middle? I've got
:26:23. > :26:25.children who graduated from university, massive shortage of
:26:26. > :26:34.housing, the oldest one's 28, he's still living with me. Can't save
:26:35. > :26:39.enough for a deposit. What are the parties going to do about this for
:26:40. > :26:48.the future? Gentleman down the front mere with his hand up? Why can we
:26:49. > :26:55.not train our only youngsters to go into the hospitals and they're
:26:56. > :27:00.getting degrees, why aren't we training them. Nursing training was
:27:01. > :27:05.cut back in the 90s I think I'm correct in saying. Brandon Lewis? We
:27:06. > :27:10.have more nurses coming into the NHS, but I actually do think going
:27:11. > :27:14.back to the original point and I'll touch on the point made about the
:27:15. > :27:17.gentleman's child coming out of university as well. We have got to
:27:18. > :27:21.recognise that the country made a clear decision in this part of the
:27:22. > :27:24.world, a very clear decision around Brexit and wants to leave the
:27:25. > :27:27.European Union and we have been clear about, first of all we'll
:27:28. > :27:31.respect that, we've delivered Article 50 so started that process.
:27:32. > :27:35.As we leave the European Union, that gives us opportunities to get much
:27:36. > :27:38.more control back, full control back of our borders with countries who
:27:39. > :27:42.we've not had that control with over the past years in the European
:27:43. > :27:45.Union, the free movement of Labour that Labour itself wants to
:27:46. > :27:49.continue. We'll have that opportunity coming directly to the
:27:50. > :27:54.point about what we can do. We have got to deal with the issue. This is
:27:55. > :27:56.why we have outlined what we have done about increasing the
:27:57. > :28:06.opportunities for councils to build more social housing. We have seen
:28:07. > :28:11.housing go from what was its highest level, 75,000 in 2009. The gentleman
:28:12. > :28:16.was making a correct point about training people at home. We have got
:28:17. > :28:18.to make sure we are upskilling people to take jobs, not just in
:28:19. > :28:22.Public Services but in the opportunities we see all over the
:28:23. > :28:26.country, as businesses are growing. We have nearly two million more jobs
:28:27. > :28:33.in this economy with 1,000 a day being created. We want to upskill
:28:34. > :28:37.people for universities. You have ended the nursing bursary which
:28:38. > :28:41.makes it difficult for any mature nurses to train to qualify? The lady
:28:42. > :28:45.in the front row? I spent 33 years in social housing and we are
:28:46. > :28:51.building far less than we've ever done in my whole 33 years in housing
:28:52. > :28:55.and the poverty that I've seen on the streets and in living in slum
:28:56. > :29:00.landlord conditions are just terrible. It's to do with a total
:29:01. > :29:03.failure of housing policy and of planning that you're just not
:29:04. > :29:06.building and you have no intention with your current manifesto to build
:29:07. > :29:12.enough houses for our children. APPLAUSE.
:29:13. > :29:18.Actual I, can I respond to that? We are on immigration. That's not
:29:19. > :29:24.correct factually. We have built more social housing under 13 years
:29:25. > :29:27.of Labour. That's a fact. Our manifesto's very clear about how we
:29:28. > :29:35.want to deliver more housing and more social housing as well. We are
:29:36. > :29:42.on immigration. The lady in the middle? But surely isn't the
:29:43. > :29:45.economic success of this country due to the immigration, due to the
:29:46. > :29:49.people working in the fields and people working in the hospitals and
:29:50. > :29:54.paying their taxes? APPLAUSE.
:29:55. > :29:58.Clive Lewis The lady made a very important point. If you want to
:29:59. > :30:01.build more houses and Seoul the housing crisis, putting an arbitrary
:30:02. > :30:04.cap on immigration isn't going to solve that problem. The Labour Party
:30:05. > :30:08.said we'll make sure we put the economy first, the needs of the
:30:09. > :30:12.economy first and whilst we'll invest in housing, in Public
:30:13. > :30:18.Services, we'll also make sure we train young people. That's what the
:30:19. > :30:23.national education service is for. Adult education where everyone from
:30:24. > :30:27.birth to death can actually access education and training because
:30:28. > :30:29.ultimately in the long run yes I want to see young people, people
:30:30. > :30:34.from this country trained up to do the jobs that we need to do in this
:30:35. > :30:37.country. But for now, we need an economy that works. If we want to
:30:38. > :30:41.have the Public Services we all want, if we want the social care,
:30:42. > :30:45.that means putting the economy first and not arbitrary caps on
:30:46. > :30:48.immigration which, I'm afraid to say, when they have been put in
:30:49. > :30:53.place by Theresa May, like you heard in the debays last night, she
:30:54. > :30:58.admitted they'd missed. They cannot be here because ultimately it's the
:30:59. > :31:02.economy stupid that counts. Once you have trained all those
:31:03. > :31:05.people to do all the jobs that migrant workers are doing, we don't
:31:06. > :31:09.need any more migrant workers, is that what you are saying? There are
:31:10. > :31:14.two sides to this. First of all, as the economy grows, you need more
:31:15. > :31:18.people. You would like to think that domestically you can cope with that.
:31:19. > :31:22.There is another side to immigration, we are often pulling in
:31:23. > :31:25.people from some of the poorest under-developed parts of the world.
:31:26. > :31:30.That's a brain drain on their economies as well. So look, if we
:31:31. > :31:35.can educate and train people in this country, so much the better, and
:31:36. > :31:41.keep them in their countries to develop their countries, that's
:31:42. > :31:44.good. Immigration has been good for our country but ultimately I
:31:45. > :31:47.understand that people want to ensure the jobs and housing in this
:31:48. > :31:52.country is enough for people in this country. I get it, everyone gets it
:31:53. > :31:58.and that's what everyone wants. Patrick? I disagree. Everyone's
:31:59. > :32:02.carrying on with the population scheme. We are never going to get a
:32:03. > :32:06.grip on our housing crisis if we keep needing to build a house for a
:32:07. > :32:10.new arrival every seven minutes, it's all the new houses pretty much
:32:11. > :32:14.taken up just through migration. We have to start training our own
:32:15. > :32:20.people, we have to be more discerning about who comes into the
:32:21. > :32:24.country. England is the sixth most overcrowded country in the entire
:32:25. > :32:31.world. I think most people need a breather from mass immigration. Let
:32:32. > :32:36.us move on. Next question from Joe McKierney. Is there a fairer way to
:32:37. > :32:39.deal with the health care cost for the elderly, other than the
:32:40. > :32:45.introduction of the dementia tax? APPLAUSE.
:32:46. > :32:47.Clive Lewis? Yes and it will start by not electing a Conservative
:32:48. > :32:52.Government and electing a Labour Government.
:32:53. > :32:57.APPLAUSE. That would be a good starting point.
:32:58. > :33:01.One of the reasons you are seeing a negative hostile campaign where
:33:02. > :33:05.Jeremy Corbyn is being spat on by Conservative MPs day in and day out,
:33:06. > :33:09.we are seeing it again this week, is because the wheels on their wagon on
:33:10. > :33:14.their manifesto have come off initially on the dementia tax. When
:33:15. > :33:19.Theresa May announced the tax, the uncapped level of pay and costs that
:33:20. > :33:23.people with assets of more than ?100,000 would pay, it was her
:33:24. > :33:26.manifesto. When it began to unravel, it was our matter-of-fact and Jeremy
:33:27. > :33:31.Hunt's contribution. So you can quite clearly see that if you
:33:32. > :33:36.actually want to see genuine adult social care in this country, where
:33:37. > :33:40.we look after those who've worked all their lives and paid into the
:33:41. > :33:44.system and then get told hold on a second all of your assets for your
:33:45. > :33:47.care if you happen to have long-term care, will be spent on your health
:33:48. > :33:53.care. I think that's unacceptable and the British people do. They'll
:33:54. > :33:54.make their voice made loud and clear on June 8th.
:33:55. > :34:00.APPLAUSE. . Brandon Lewis, have you been
:34:01. > :34:04.spitting on Jeremy Corbyn? Not that I've noticed but I'm sure Clive will
:34:05. > :34:09.jump on me if I have. Metaphorically. The reality is,
:34:10. > :34:14.Theresa May's stood up rightly and said one of the great challenges we
:34:15. > :34:18.have got in this country, we need to do it. Clive hasn't mentioned a
:34:19. > :34:24.solution to the problem. We do need to deal with this with two million
:34:25. > :34:28.more people every decade coming into this bracket. We are creating a
:34:29. > :34:34.fairness across the system, increasing the protection on assets
:34:35. > :34:38.that's there at the moment from ?235,000, from ?14,000 up to
:34:39. > :34:43.?100,000 and it's a cap. It's a way of dealing with a growing issue
:34:44. > :34:47.that's going to get more pressured. Everybody gets treated and nobody
:34:48. > :34:51.losing their home while they're alive. How are you going to pay for
:34:52. > :34:59.it? They don't have a solution at all. Our manifesto's been costed.
:35:00. > :35:05.It's different to your 88-page blank cheque which even the IFS has said
:35:06. > :35:09.is outrageous. We have a costed manifesto. When it comes to elderly
:35:10. > :35:14.social care, we are saying we'll collectively provide. I don't
:35:15. > :35:19.understand why you feel an individual older person must pay the
:35:20. > :35:25.price of their own social care when we are saying actually as part of a
:35:26. > :35:27.civilised society you pay for it collectively, look after one
:35:28. > :35:32.another. That's what our manifesto says and I'm proud of it. Is it in
:35:33. > :35:37.your manifesto? Yes. What does it say about how you will pay for it?
:35:38. > :35:41.We've said we'll adopt the Dilnot Report which is that it will be
:35:42. > :35:49.capped. The cap will be? I think Dilnot's put it at about ?72,000. So
:35:50. > :35:52.it will be about ?75,000. Compared to the Conservatives, we don't know
:35:53. > :36:00.what the cap is going to be, it could be ?200,000 or ?300,000.
:36:01. > :36:03.Brandon Lewis? Clive's still not dealt with the programme. The
:36:04. > :36:10.gentleman earlier on said his son can't get on the housing ladder.
:36:11. > :36:15.Young people struggling in their first few jobs earning ?20,000 to
:36:16. > :36:21.?30,000, their tax is paying for the social care in somebody in a ?1.5
:36:22. > :36:29.million house. ALL SPEAK AT ONCE.
:36:30. > :36:35.Gentleman in the front row? The Labour are talking about their great
:36:36. > :36:39.well-costed manifesto. I am an operations manager for a water
:36:40. > :36:45.company and just in my area of expertise, how are you going to
:36:46. > :36:49.nationalise water companies? The nationalisation of just one company
:36:50. > :36:53.the size of Thames Water is going to cost probably more than the Brexit
:36:54. > :36:57.divorce bill. How are you going to nationalise ten more of them? Where
:36:58. > :37:03.are we going to get the money for all of that? It comes back to the
:37:04. > :37:06.costing. The gentleman there? Surely with nationalisation, we should be
:37:07. > :37:11.talking about compensation only on the basis of need. We are on about
:37:12. > :37:15.social care, Sir? In terms of social care, if the banks were
:37:16. > :37:20.nationalised, if we had a proper wealth tax, then the people
:37:21. > :37:25.supposedly the lady living in a ?1 million house, if she's got millions
:37:26. > :37:29.as well, we have a civilised society where people who can pay pay and
:37:30. > :37:33.people who need need and you have universal benefits for everybody no
:37:34. > :37:45.matter what the situation. Gentleman on the left? I do recall that
:37:46. > :37:51.Margaret Thatcher actually increased us all, something along the words of
:37:52. > :37:57."we want you to buy your own homes so that you can leave assets for
:37:58. > :38:03.your children". Have the Tories now detrayed their heroin Mrs Thatcher?
:38:04. > :38:06.-- betrayed their heroin Mrs Thatcher?
:38:07. > :38:10.APPLAUSE. This is the oppositement this is
:38:11. > :38:15.making sure wrote you do have the ability to pass on. The threshold is
:38:16. > :38:19.increasing... There's more protection than there is now.
:38:20. > :38:22.Margaret Thatcher is no heroin of mine or probably anyone else in the
:38:23. > :38:27.Green Party. The simple fact is that there is a problem here. The funding
:38:28. > :38:32.gap according to the Local Government Association say that it's
:38:33. > :38:39.about ?2.6 billion that's going to be the shortfall by 2020. How do we
:38:40. > :38:44.pay for it? What we need to do is look at the kind of system that
:38:45. > :38:49.we've got. We've got a national insurance system whereby you pay so
:38:50. > :38:54.that if you lose your job you have got that security. If you do get
:38:55. > :38:59.ill, you do have that security. That is the basis of our health system,
:39:00. > :39:04.that was the basis of it in the 1940s and it should be that way now.
:39:05. > :39:08.The way that you pay for it is by simply ensuring that the rich pay
:39:09. > :39:12.more so that the needy have got the services that they deserve and
:39:13. > :39:16.everyone needs. That is a big increase on income tax is it? For
:39:17. > :39:21.the wealthy, yes. How much? I believe it's something up to about
:39:22. > :39:25.50% or those earning over ?100,000. So that would pay for all of this,
:39:26. > :39:30.would it? It would pay for an awful lot. ?2.6 billion when looking at
:39:31. > :39:35.budgets in the British Government of about ?800 billion is a small
:39:36. > :39:39.percentage. What's certainly not enough is that small supplement that
:39:40. > :39:42.is going on to council taxes. Council taxes alone are a very
:39:43. > :39:46.aggressive form of tactsation. That small increase is not going to do
:39:47. > :39:51.it. What we need to do is fundamentally look at our tax
:39:52. > :39:57.service so that those who're on the most pay the most. Norman Lamb? Can
:39:58. > :39:59.anyone justify the fact that a millionaire who gets cancer gets
:40:00. > :40:03.everything paid for, all their health care paid for under our NHS
:40:04. > :40:11.because that's the principle that binds us all together. But if you
:40:12. > :40:15.get dementia, you lose most ofwhat you have worked for your working
:40:16. > :40:18.life. That's intolerable. You can't possibly justify it but the Tories
:40:19. > :40:24.are going down the route of making that a reality for everyone. Let me
:40:25. > :40:28.just put this to you. At the moment, many people get care at home for
:40:29. > :40:32.free because their home is not taken into account in the assessment of
:40:33. > :40:35.their assets. The Tories are proposing that that will now be
:40:36. > :40:39.taken into account. So for the first time, there are very many people
:40:40. > :40:44.across our country who'll be faced by very high care bills. Now, I
:40:45. > :40:48.think that is intolerable, many older people are both angry and very
:40:49. > :40:54.anxious about the implications of this. My great personal frustration,
:40:55. > :41:01.as the minister who introduced the cap on care costs, to protect
:41:02. > :41:06.everyone from catastrophic loss with support from the Conservatives, they
:41:07. > :41:11.committed to implement it in their 2015 manifesto, they've now
:41:12. > :41:16.abandoned it and I think that's shameful. The gentleman with the
:41:17. > :41:20.pink shirt? The way I see it we've got a Tory Government who's going to
:41:21. > :41:24.make the many suffer, or you've got a Labour Government who're going to
:41:25. > :41:30.spend, spend, spend and bankrupt the country. Gentleman in the middle and
:41:31. > :41:36.the back row? My question is to Brandon - how can we trust a weak
:41:37. > :41:42.and wobbly Theresa May if she can't stick by her decision and keep doing
:41:43. > :41:49.U-turns? Fair point. A couple of people in the back row as well?
:41:50. > :41:54.Labour and the Green Party seem to want to raise taxes on the wealthy.
:41:55. > :41:59.Surely in a society we want to encourage people to do well, but
:42:00. > :42:04.raising taxes at a ridiculous amount that still even with Labour's policy
:42:05. > :42:07.it's about ?85,000 earners, that's not even the wealthy, that's head
:42:08. > :42:11.teachers. Surely in a society we want to encourage people to do well
:42:12. > :42:17.and not have to give a ridiculous amount to the state who waste the
:42:18. > :42:19.money anyway. Patrick O' Flynn I would like to go back to the
:42:20. > :42:24.original question. I think you asked, is there a fairer way of
:42:25. > :42:28.doing it. There is certainly not a more unfair way of doing it than the
:42:29. > :42:33.Conservatives have proposed. To be fair to the opposition parties, even
:42:34. > :42:38.Labour, as Norman said, we all thought the Conservatives had
:42:39. > :42:43.broadly adopted the Dilnot solution, the cap around ?72,000. Then they
:42:44. > :42:48.walk into this election with a back of the envelope plan completely
:42:49. > :42:53.uncapped maximum liability for people who're unlucky enough to
:42:54. > :42:56.develop dementia, acute arthritis, any other debilitating condition and
:42:57. > :43:01.Theresa May was forced I think by the wroth of the older vote to say,
:43:02. > :43:06.oh, we will have a cap after all. I would like to ask Brandon Lewis the
:43:07. > :43:13.question that Amber Rudd failed to answer at the weekend - could it be
:43:14. > :43:17.?300,000, ?400,000, give us a ballpark figure What is it? As the
:43:18. > :43:24.Prime Minister herself outlined last night, we are going to consult on
:43:25. > :43:28.that. It's important we do this in a proper way. We have a right to
:43:29. > :43:31.know... We have a right to know before we vote. I'm afraid we have
:43:32. > :43:36.to leave it there. All of you thank you very much. That's it for now, we
:43:37. > :43:43.go to the polls in just over a week. The conversation continues on
:43:44. > :43:47.Twitter at # BBCeastDebate. Thank you to the
:43:48. > :44:03.panel, our audience and to you for watching. Good night.
:44:04. > :44:07.Hear the arguments from the politicians themselves.