0:00:05 > 0:00:08Welcome to St Leonards, where we have an audience of 120
0:00:08 > 0:00:10South East voters ready to question five leading politicians ahead
0:00:10 > 0:00:16of next week's general election.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Good evening from the historic theatre.
0:00:28 > 0:00:29We have parliamentary candidates from five main parties
0:00:30 > 0:00:31on our panel tonight.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35The Conservative Damian Collins is chairman of the Commons Culture,
0:00:35 > 0:00:37Media and Sport Select Committee.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39He is standing for re-election in Folkestone and Hythe.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Caroline Lucas is the co-leader of the Green Party, hoping
0:00:42 > 0:00:44to retain her seat in Brighton Pavilion.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Peter Chowney is the Labour candidate for Hastings and Rye
0:00:48 > 0:00:52and the leader of Hastings Borough Council.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Piers Wauchope is a member of the Ukip National
0:00:54 > 0:00:55Executive Committee.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58He's standing for the party in Dover.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59Kelly Marie Blundell is the Liberal Democrat
0:00:59 > 0:01:02candidate for Lewes.
0:01:02 > 0:01:08APPLAUSE
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Now, if you'd like to join in the debate at home, you can do,
0:01:15 > 0:01:16using the hashtag SE vote.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Go to our Facebook page or look at our Twitter feed.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22The BBC website is also running a live page rounding of your
0:01:22 > 0:01:25comments as we go this evening.
0:01:25 > 0:01:30Go to bbc.co.uk/ Kent Sussex or Surrey.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34First of all, let's go to our first question from Bev Jenkins.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36We are increasingly seeing the police, sorry, the army
0:01:36 > 0:01:38being used on our streets.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42Do you think we would be using the military if we had not
0:01:42 > 0:01:47had cuts to our police?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50I'm going to go to Damian Collins first of all because, obviously,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53the fallout from Manchester has come a lot closer to home, to Sussex,
0:01:53 > 0:01:55in the last couple of days.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Damian Collins, Kent has lost 17% of its police officers
0:01:57 > 0:01:58and your government.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01The border force has also been cut.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04How exactly does that make us safer in the South East?
0:02:04 > 0:02:06There have been, through the necessity for budget cuts,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10the need to look at all areas of government spending.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13The important thing is to keep operations in the front line strong.
0:02:13 > 0:02:21So, with border force, what we have seen his savings,
0:02:21 > 0:02:23mainly in back-office functions but keeping more officers
0:02:23 > 0:02:28operating on the front line.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31So much more of the police work now is intelligence levels of what we're
0:02:31 > 0:02:34seeing around the terrible incident in Manchester, as we're seeing
0:02:34 > 0:02:36around other would-be terror attacks, is so much
0:02:36 > 0:02:38of the investment now goes into proper surveillance,
0:02:38 > 0:02:39proper monitoring of known suspects.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41To try to intercept a problem before it occurs,
0:02:41 > 0:02:44much of the hidden work of our police and security
0:02:44 > 0:02:45forces does that and does that very successfully.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Sadly, what we saw in Manchester was the terrorists only
0:02:48 > 0:02:49have to get lucky ones.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52We have to be on top of every single time.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54So much of that now is invested in proper cyber security,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57proper surveillance, as well as front line policing.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00The role of the Armed Forces on the streets that we saw
0:03:00 > 0:03:02was reflective of the fact that we were at a critical
0:03:02 > 0:03:03level of threat.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06That means a threat is considered to be imminent.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09We were only at that critical level for a few days.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12As has been the case in the past, that often does involve
0:03:12 > 0:03:14the Armed Forces being deployed alongside the police.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16The fact is though, as I mentioned, you've made significant cuts,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18your government has, to front line policing.
0:03:18 > 0:03:23The Police Federation, which represents rank and file
0:03:23 > 0:03:25officers, they believe neighbourhood policing is the answer
0:03:25 > 0:03:28to tackling terrorism.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31What do you say to that?
0:03:31 > 0:03:34Tackling terrorism, I think, is principally intelligence levels
0:03:34 > 0:03:36of that's where we've had our successes.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38We also see crime falling across the area as well.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Crime is falling across the country, across the South East.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44We are talking about the security of the south-east at a time
0:03:44 > 0:03:46when this is uppermost in many people's minds.
0:03:46 > 0:03:52Theresa May, when she was Home Secretary, cut GCHQ funding by 5%.
0:03:52 > 0:03:54What we have seen is more investment in both the Ministry
0:03:54 > 0:03:57of Defence in particular, in cyber security and five
0:03:57 > 0:03:58surveillance as well.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Also, the Government requiring new powers so it can look
0:04:00 > 0:04:02at and monitor internet accounts and e-mail accounts
0:04:02 > 0:04:04of people we would believe to be terror suspects.
0:04:04 > 0:04:05This is very controversial.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07There are politicians on this panel, Caroline in particular,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09who are very against that.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I think we'd look at what happened both in the attack in Manchester
0:04:12 > 0:04:15and in the attack in Westminster as well and say, we need
0:04:15 > 0:04:16to have that capability.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17We need to allow our security.
0:04:17 > 0:04:23Monitor people we consider to be a threat and to stop them before
0:04:23 > 0:04:26they identify their target and launch it.
0:04:26 > 0:04:33Neighbourhood policing is incredibly important.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35It's this intelligence-led policing, with proper
0:04:35 > 0:04:36surveillance capabilities, but I think are essential.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38Let's bring in Caroline Lucas.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40As Damian just mentioned great you're opposed to mass surveillance,
0:04:40 > 0:04:42the Prevent strategy, and the renewal of Trident.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45How would the Green Party make us more safe than we are already?
0:04:45 > 0:04:47Let me try to unpack some of that.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49First of all with policing, going back to Bev's question.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Since 2010 but we have seen 20,000 fewer police in our police forces.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54That is a huge number to take out.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Every year, when Theresa May was Home Secretary, 4% each year
0:04:58 > 0:05:00of the police force was cut.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Damian keeps talking about intelligence led policing.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Yes, that's important.
0:05:05 > 0:05:06Actually, the local intelligence of neighbourhood policing
0:05:06 > 0:05:08is vital to that as well.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12I am deeply worried about the level of those police cuts.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14What the Green Party would do, when it comes
0:05:14 > 0:05:15to Prevent, for example.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19We're not saying scrap Prevent.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22We are saying is there is a lot of evidence from the Muslim
0:05:22 > 0:05:24community and others, the human rights committee
0:05:24 > 0:05:26of the parliament as well, have all said there should be
0:05:26 > 0:05:28a review of Prevent, because it's seen very
0:05:28 > 0:05:31much as a toxic brand, particularly in
0:05:31 > 0:05:33the Muslim community.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35It's seen as something that's top-down.
0:05:35 > 0:05:36Something...
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Putting one part of the community against another.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41Let's have a review of Prevent let's make sure it works.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Let's make sure it has the confidence of everybody involved.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45I'd like to bring in Peter Chowney on theirs.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48There's been a lot of criticism of your leader,
0:05:48 > 0:05:50Jeremy Corbyn, in recent days, on this security issue.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Many people don't trust him because of his history of supporting
0:05:53 > 0:05:54terrorist organisations.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56How do you...
0:05:56 > 0:05:59That's the criticism from a lot of people.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04How do you convince people he is up to protecting this nationality?
0:06:04 > 0:06:06I think that's a good example, actually, of how
0:06:06 > 0:06:08he is up to protecting it.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11If you look at what Jeremy Corbyn did, in terms of talking
0:06:11 > 0:06:16to who were believed to be terrorists at the time
0:06:16 > 0:06:19and were responsible for the bombings, and the Government
0:06:19 > 0:06:21has been having secret meetings with the IRA right
0:06:21 > 0:06:22back through the 1970s.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25They didn't speak at commemorations to honour dead IRA terrorists seven
0:06:25 > 0:06:27years running all lay wreaths for Palestinian terrorists.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30It was by speaking to the IRA that we managed to get this
0:06:30 > 0:06:31to the negotiating table.
0:06:31 > 0:06:32Jeremy Corbyn wasn't involved in those negotiations.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36He was one of the first people to do that, publicly, to speak to them.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39After that, it was followed with John Major in the peace process
0:06:39 > 0:06:41in the Good Friday Agreement.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Now, thankfully, with free from IRA bombers.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45He was in conversation with them, arguably supporting them,
0:06:45 > 0:06:46before they laid down their arms.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48That's when they got involved in peace talks.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52This is the suspicion about your party.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54He was supporting the idea of negotiating with them.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56He said we had to get to the negotiating
0:06:56 > 0:06:59table to talk to them.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02Why then are 100 members of the Labour Party in the House
0:07:02 > 0:07:04of Lords saying that he, your leader, shows a disturbing
0:07:04 > 0:07:07pattern of behaviour when it comes to his consulting with people who've
0:07:07 > 0:07:10been involved in terrorism question that's what they're saying.
0:07:10 > 0:07:11I don't agree with that.
0:07:11 > 0:07:12That's just wrong.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16I think Jeremy Corbyn was part of the process whereby the IRA came
0:07:16 > 0:07:25to the negotiating table.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28If it had not been for him and others were talking to the IRA,
0:07:28 > 0:07:30we would not have had the peace agreement.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33Andy Burnham says he's wrong to link UK foreign policy to terrorism,
0:07:33 > 0:07:35which he did in a speech last week.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37Charles Clarke, a former Labour Home Secretary, says,
0:07:37 > 0:07:39when it comes to security, Jeremy Corbyn is not
0:07:39 > 0:07:40Prime Minister material.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43Why are you getting all criticism from senior members of your party?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45How can you not linked foreign policy with terrorism?
0:07:45 > 0:07:53That doesn't make sense.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55We are talking about terrorism...
0:07:55 > 0:08:05How can you not linked foreign policy with terrorism?
0:08:05 > 0:08:07Of course it's part of the same thing.
0:08:07 > 0:08:08Of course it's associated.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10That's the sort of things we've got to talk about.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Piers Wauchope, do you agree with what you've just
0:08:13 > 0:08:14heard from Peter Chowney, it's just something
0:08:14 > 0:08:15we have to talk about?
0:08:15 > 0:08:18I profoundly disagree with what Peter has just said.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Just going back to the question before about whether it's a good
0:08:21 > 0:08:22idea to have soldiers on the streets.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24To me, it's a complete nonsense.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26What happened was, there was an unexpected attack
0:08:26 > 0:08:28on the Monday of last week and then, suddenly, the whole security
0:08:28 > 0:08:32situation is said to go to severe and then we had this great show up
0:08:32 > 0:08:34and down the country, in all parts of the country,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37of armed police, all police leave cancelled, so that police then stand
0:08:37 > 0:08:40in high viz jackets on towns, big towns, small towns,
0:08:40 > 0:08:41everywhere, to show we're doing something.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43We weren't doing anything, we were making a show.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45A pointless gesture, in my view.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47What's happened and what we really have to face up to,
0:08:47 > 0:08:51all of us have to face up to, that there is a growing
0:08:51 > 0:08:52problem in this country with Islamist extremists.
0:08:52 > 0:08:53That is a fact.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56If you want to stop these sorts of attacks happening
0:08:56 > 0:08:58again in the future, you've got to think something a bit
0:08:58 > 0:09:01more imaginatively than putting more people out in high viz jackets
0:09:01 > 0:09:04to make a point.
0:09:04 > 0:09:05Hang on a minute.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07That is actually your policy.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Of all the parties got your promising 20,000
0:09:09 > 0:09:13more police officers.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14More than anyone else.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16As Damien mentioned at the beginning, many experts say
0:09:16 > 0:09:19it is about intelligence, not boots on the ground
0:09:19 > 0:09:20of the that's what you're offering.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22What's happened is the police budget has been cut.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Of the cut police budget, more of that has been put into terrorism.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28The ordinary policeman on the beat and the general police work has
0:09:28 > 0:09:30suffered even further because of it.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32It hasn't been successful either way because, in each case,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35what we are doing is facing this tide and trying to shovel it
0:09:35 > 0:09:38back with pitchforks.
0:09:38 > 0:09:43The only offered being given by the Home Secretary in theirs is,
0:09:43 > 0:09:46give us more pitchforks.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49We've got to think more severely about how we deal with people
0:09:49 > 0:09:52who are in this country, many of them British passport
0:09:52 > 0:09:54holders, who have views that allow these sorts of things to happen
0:09:54 > 0:09:57and give succour to the terrorists when they detonate themselves.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Before I come to Kelly Marie.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Let's go back to Bev.
0:10:00 > 0:10:01You asked the question.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03It's been a terrible time.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04It's been an absolutely awful atrocity.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07I don't think most people want to see the military
0:10:07 > 0:10:09being used on the streets.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14You, sir.
0:10:14 > 0:10:20The reason why there's cutbacks on all the police forces
0:10:20 > 0:10:22is because the last Labour government bankrupt this country.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24We don't want it to happen again.
0:10:24 > 0:10:24Kelly Marie Chowney...
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Sussex Police is cutting 100 jobs in the next few years.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29Blundell would you, as a party, reverse those cuts?
0:10:29 > 0:10:30Absolutely.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32The cuts to East Sussex and Sussex Police are
0:10:32 > 0:10:33absolutely devastating.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36We're looking at having less than 20 actual police officers
0:10:36 > 0:10:37on the ground in neighbourhoods.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Given that the Conservatives have a commitment allegedly
0:10:39 > 0:10:43to neighbourhood policing and that is an absolute farce.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45You haven't put a number on it.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47Would you, personally, I to see a party that a number
0:10:47 > 0:10:50on how many officers they'd introduce back onto the streets
0:10:50 > 0:10:53because Piers is offering 20,000, or rather his party is?
0:10:53 > 0:10:56I would very much like to see investing more money into policing.
0:10:56 > 0:10:57To go back to the question...
0:10:57 > 0:10:58That's not in your manifesto.
0:10:58 > 0:10:59It's not.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Specific numbers are not in our manifesto but that doesn't
0:11:02 > 0:11:03mean we are not committed to it.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06To go back to the specific question, what happened in Manchester
0:11:06 > 0:11:07was an absolute tragedy.
0:11:07 > 0:11:08It genuinely was.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11However, any act of terrorism should never, ever be an excuse to ramp up
0:11:11 > 0:11:16military on our streets and ramp up invasion of our Civil Liberties.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19I do not want to live in a country where, when I catch a train,
0:11:19 > 0:11:26I have to face people with guns stop the have to, as a society can stand
0:11:26 > 0:11:29up and be more robust and so terrorism must not be allowed
0:11:29 > 0:11:30to change our way of life.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32That would do it, would it?
0:11:32 > 0:11:33That's the first step in the right direction.
0:11:33 > 0:11:34OK.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39Another question from the audience.
0:11:39 > 0:11:40Lady down here in black.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Once again, a discussion about the police, which is obviously
0:11:42 > 0:11:43relevant to terrorism.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46We're bringing up this thing about Jeremy Corbyn and his very
0:11:46 > 0:11:49modest involvement in the peace process, despite the fact that he is
0:11:49 > 0:11:50a very well-known peace activist.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53Once again we hear, we hear that Jeremy Corbyn is somehow, from you,
0:11:53 > 0:11:58that somehow associated with the IRA.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I was trying to make the point.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03There were many people in the party who are unhappy about it.
0:12:03 > 0:12:04Let's go to our next question.
0:12:04 > 0:12:05James Butler.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08During the Brexit negotiations, what is more important -
0:12:08 > 0:12:11border controls or free trade?
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Go to Peter Chowney first.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15The answer to the question is free trade.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17You know, unquestionably, in my view.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21I don't think immigration targets make any sense.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24To set an arbitrary number and say, oh, will allow this many
0:12:24 > 0:12:26or that many, or whatever.
0:12:26 > 0:12:26It doesn't make sense.
0:12:26 > 0:12:34It depends on what the demands and needs are of the NHS,
0:12:34 > 0:12:36of agriculture, of manufacturing, tourism round here.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39The hotel and hospitality sector, 25% are from people who have come
0:12:39 > 0:12:42over here, mostly from the EU, but other countries as well.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46So, I mean, to keep the economy running, we are going to need
0:12:46 > 0:12:47people coming in here.
0:12:47 > 0:12:48It's silly to set targets.
0:12:48 > 0:12:49It depends on what the demands are.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Let's put it another way.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Is there a number of people coming into the UK that
0:12:53 > 0:12:55would be too much for you?
0:12:55 > 0:13:05And a cricket depends, no.
0:13:15 > 0:13:16-- It depends.
0:13:16 > 0:13:17It depends on what the demands are.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20As I say, if that aren't the jobs here, people won't come.
0:13:20 > 0:13:21It's about...
0:13:21 > 0:13:24People want to come here because they want to work it,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27because they're better paid than they are in their home country,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29and because there are employers here who need those people
0:13:29 > 0:13:30for those jobs.
0:13:30 > 0:13:31OK.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34If like me to remind you, I'm sure, that many voters in Kent
0:13:34 > 0:13:37abandoned your party after EU migration trebled in the South East
0:13:37 > 0:13:38under the Labour government.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41The people you need to win back, to get into Number 10,
0:13:41 > 0:13:43many of them turned to Ukip in many constituencies in Kent,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45particularly because they were concerned about immigration.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48How on earth are you going to win back those people
0:13:48 > 0:13:51when you are telling us there is no such thing as too much immigration?
0:13:51 > 0:13:55As I say, I think it is determined more by what is needed in terms
0:13:55 > 0:13:57of jobs that are available and what industry and
0:13:57 > 0:13:59the hospitality sector and so one actually need in the UK.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01Also, within the EU, obviously, at the moment,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03we've got free movement anyway.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05The commonest e-mail I've actually had, and one
0:14:05 > 0:14:07of the commonest e-mails I've had, is actually from people
0:14:07 > 0:14:08in Hastings who live in Spain.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11There very worried about the ending of their rights to live there.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13You go to some parts of Kent.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Kent County Council did a big report into this last year.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18They concluded that EU enlargement has put pressure on our schools,
0:14:18 > 0:14:20particularly accommodating peoples who don't have English
0:14:20 > 0:14:21as a first language.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23Now, for many people, you would concede I'm sure,
0:14:23 > 0:14:24this is a serious issue.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26They're looking to your party to address it.
0:14:26 > 0:14:27You don't seem to be.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31It is a serious issue but it's also a serious issue that the NHS
0:14:31 > 0:14:33would work without people coming in from abroad.
0:14:33 > 0:14:34They simply got it wrong.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37In order for our schools to be able to plan, wouldn't it be
0:14:37 > 0:14:40sensible to have a target, even if it's a much higher
0:14:40 > 0:14:42target than other parties might want to have?
0:14:42 > 0:14:45You could have an estimate, I suppose, based on what
0:14:45 > 0:14:48the demands are four.
0:14:48 > 0:14:58It makes no sense to have a target because, what would you do?
0:15:02 > 0:15:04If it was above what was actually needed, the number of
0:15:04 > 0:15:05people who come here...
0:15:05 > 0:15:08You then allow for too much in terms of education.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11If it was too high, sorry, if it was too low, then
0:15:11 > 0:15:13you would not be able to plan for that.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15I think it has to be demand led.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18It has to be according to the people who are needed here,
0:15:18 > 0:15:20he will come here to do the jobs.
0:15:20 > 0:15:21One more question.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23Would it concern you if EU migration to this country travelled again?
0:15:23 > 0:15:29-- trebled.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32We're coming out of the EU anyway in a couple of years' time anyway.
0:15:32 > 0:15:33Not out yet.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36I think it's unlikely that EU migration trebled during that time
0:15:36 > 0:15:39because I think people are more worried about the fact they won't be
0:15:39 > 0:15:44allowed to stay here after we come out of the EU
0:15:44 > 0:15:46and I sincerely hope they will be.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48Piers Wauchope, we've just heard Peter raise the whole subject
0:15:48 > 0:15:58of what our economy needs.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Under Ukip's policy, it's a one in,
0:16:11 > 0:16:12one out immigration policy.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15How would you support those hospitals who rely so heavily,
0:16:15 > 0:16:16particularly in the South East, on EU nationals?
0:16:17 > 0:16:18It's marvellous to hear Peter speak.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21He's sounding as if he's the chief executive officer of some
0:16:21 > 0:16:22enormous building company, who's just saying, look,
0:16:22 > 0:16:23there's plenty of demand.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25What about the NHS? I'm coming to that.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27There's plenty of demand for low paid workers.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Let's get them into this country and undercut any wages anyone
0:16:30 > 0:16:31is going to earn over here.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Now, as far as the National Health Service is concerned but there's
0:16:34 > 0:16:36something like 13,000 people from the EU working
0:16:36 > 0:16:37in the National Health Service.
0:16:37 > 0:16:38Well done them.
0:16:38 > 0:16:39They're very welcome.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41They're working for us in the NHS.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44To have those 13,000 in here, we have to have something like half
0:16:44 > 0:16:47a million a year in new people coming into the country defeats me.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49Most of them aren't working for the NHS.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51Most of them are working in low-paid jobs that
0:16:51 > 0:16:54are undercutting our own people, who can't get work, particularly,
0:16:54 > 0:16:55if I may so, in construction.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Because of the old tax loophole, so many people are employed
0:16:58 > 0:17:00through agencies on the minimum wage, or twice the minimum wage,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03as it is in Romania to come and work in this country and,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06of course, our own people can't compete with that which is under
0:17:06 > 0:17:09the EU rules as they stand at the moment.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10Let's bring in Kelly Marie Blundell.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12The Liberal Democrats want to continue to freedom of movement.
0:17:12 > 0:17:13We do.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16You also want to offer sanctuary to 50,000 Syrian refugees over
0:17:16 > 0:17:17the next five years.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19Again, many people will be concerned about that.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21I think there were a lot of misgivings around immigration.
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Take the NHS, for example.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25When we leave Europe, if we say you have to go home,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27our NHS is going to collapse.
0:17:27 > 0:17:28We need those people coming in.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30We need those people supporting our health service.
0:17:30 > 0:17:31Why?
0:17:31 > 0:17:34You talk about schools, and we referred to the Kent
0:17:34 > 0:17:36County Council report, actually the problem is not that
0:17:36 > 0:17:39we've got immigrants coming in, the problem is that the Conservative
0:17:39 > 0:17:40government has restricted councils from opening new schools
0:17:40 > 0:17:42and expanding new schools, so all our schools
0:17:42 > 0:17:43are at breaking point.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46That's even before you take into account the education cuts.
0:17:46 > 0:17:47That's nothing to do with immigration.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49That's to do with the fact our schools are underfunded
0:17:49 > 0:17:52and that this is often the case with many of the industries
0:17:52 > 0:17:54that we see around the country.
0:17:54 > 0:17:55People blame immigration and they don't actually
0:17:55 > 0:17:58look at the facts that are in front of them.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00Immigrants bring a fantastic amount of money to our economy
0:18:00 > 0:18:02and contribute a huge amount.
0:18:02 > 0:18:03Going back to the question from Jamie.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05Ultimately, border controls, free trade, the two are interlinked.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08If you look at the European union, you need to have free movement
0:18:08 > 0:18:11of people to ensure free trade because they're part
0:18:11 > 0:18:12of the same economic system.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Therefore, we would balance the equally make sure we remained
0:18:14 > 0:18:16in the single market and remained accessible to our
0:18:16 > 0:18:17neighbours and friends.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Why do you think that 56% of people, according to a survey
0:18:20 > 0:18:22carried out last week, feel their culture is
0:18:22 > 0:18:24threatened by the level of migration into this country?
0:18:24 > 0:18:26Feeling that their culture is threatened does not necessarily
0:18:26 > 0:18:28make it a bad thing.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30There is a real thing about integrating and further
0:18:30 > 0:18:33integration across the UK.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Doesn't that also need to be an ability to plan for the schools?
0:18:36 > 0:18:38If they don't know how the people are coming.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Targets are sensible surely if it only allows local authorities
0:18:41 > 0:18:44to plan for the number of people who might be arriving at the school.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48We're not seeing huge amounts of people coming
0:18:48 > 0:18:50into the UK on that level.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53It would be any more than planning according to current birth rates.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55Unfortunately, what we see from schools at the moment is,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58they're not even looking at the birth registers to see how
0:18:58 > 0:19:01many children are coming up to know what they've got to spend.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03Let's go back to James, who asked the question.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Well, you bring up a lot of valid points about immigration but,
0:19:06 > 0:19:08I was thinking more about actually being in the negotiating room.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12They may be two mutually exclusive options, having freedom of movement,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15or having free trade.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17You have to prioritise one or the other.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20I'm wondering what your parties will be prioritising
0:19:20 > 0:19:23in the rooms, if you got there?
0:19:23 > 0:19:27He's got a point, hasn't he, Damian Collins?
0:19:27 > 0:19:28It's a great question, as well.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30At the heart of it is trust.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32This is the biggest challenge, the biggest peacetime challenge,
0:19:32 > 0:19:34this country has set itself since the war.
0:19:34 > 0:19:35Who do you trust?
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Who has the experience to lead these the negotiations?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39Can we trust the Conservatives?
0:19:39 > 0:19:42In some ways, the first point is, with free trade, we want free trade.
0:19:42 > 0:19:47What will happen legally as result of leaving the European Union
0:19:47 > 0:19:50is that Parliament will decide what our border control,
0:19:50 > 0:19:51our immigration policy, is.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53It will be a national competence once again.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56Whatever the levels of immigration are, whatever the rules are around
0:19:56 > 0:19:59visas, people working in this country, that will be decided here.
0:19:59 > 0:20:01So, there will be border controls.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06What we are negotiating for an working for is an open
0:20:06 > 0:20:11and free trading relationship with Europe, which I think
0:20:11 > 0:20:13will be in our interest and in their interest, to.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Talking of trust your party has promised and failed successively,
0:20:15 > 0:20:19year after year, to bring immigration down to
0:20:19 > 0:20:22the tens of thousands.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26And yet you are still making that from this in your
0:20:26 > 0:20:28manifesto in this election.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29Why?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31When we know you cannot deliver it.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34If you get back to the debate during the referendum,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36hearing what the Labour and Liberal candidate said tonight, you'd think
0:20:36 > 0:20:37the referendum hadn't happened.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40You can't deliver on your promise on this issue goes that you had
0:20:40 > 0:20:43a chance and you successively fell to do it.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45One of the issues we face, and this was a hot topic
0:20:45 > 0:20:48during the referendum debate as well, was that we can't set
0:20:48 > 0:20:50a national policy on border controls and migration
0:20:50 > 0:20:51within the European Union.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54We have no power because of freedom of movement to stop people
0:20:54 > 0:20:56coming here, not to work, and not to make contributions
0:20:56 > 0:20:59to society, but just to live here and draw from the state.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02We have no power legally to stop that.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03Now, we will do in the future.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07We have said it is still our target that immigration should be
0:21:07 > 0:21:09in the tens of thousands, rather than the hundreds
0:21:09 > 0:21:12of thousands.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15We will have the power to set a national policy
0:21:15 > 0:21:17on immigration to deliver that, something we don't have now.
0:21:17 > 0:21:18Caroline Lucas.
0:21:18 > 0:21:2155% of people in the south-east of England voted for leave.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24We know that one of the main reason for people voting to leave
0:21:24 > 0:21:25the EU was immigration.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27What is your message to them when you're telling them
0:21:27 > 0:21:30that we don't need a limit on the number of people
0:21:30 > 0:21:31coming to this country?
0:21:31 > 0:21:34First of all, you don't know what is going through someone's head
0:21:34 > 0:21:36when they put their cross on a ballot paper.
0:21:36 > 0:21:44So, we don't know the very different reason we all had
0:21:44 > 0:21:45for voting for leave.
0:21:45 > 0:21:46Surrey University's well-respected academics have asked
0:21:46 > 0:21:47people time and again.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50You know this comes up as a well-known issue
0:21:50 > 0:21:51for the electorate.
0:21:51 > 0:21:52It is a big issue.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54I'm just saying you can't generalise hugely from it.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56I am saying is the policy that Damian is proposing
0:21:56 > 0:21:58is going to cause us massive economic harm.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01There is plenty of evidence that suggests that if you are not
0:22:01 > 0:22:04inside the single market, then extra tariffs on our products
0:22:04 > 0:22:06will mean there will be less money in our pockets.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Already we are seeing inflation going up.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Already we are seeing the cost of living going up.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12And that's before we've even left the single market.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Ultimately, Damian is willing, essentially, to sacrifice economic
0:22:14 > 0:22:16security, on the basis of arbitrary targets that he knows
0:22:16 > 0:22:18he will struggle to meet.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Asking specifically your point, what would I say to those
0:22:20 > 0:22:21people who voted leave?
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Green Party policy is to say that we think the British public
0:22:24 > 0:22:28should have the right to have a look at the final deal that Theresa May,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30or whoever it is, comes back from Brussels with.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33If you like that deal, once you've seen the fine print, then great.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Go ahead and vote for that.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38If you don't like it could then you should have the right
0:22:38 > 0:22:40to stay inside the EU.
0:22:40 > 0:22:41So many lies.
0:22:41 > 0:22:47So many lives were told by the leave campaigners.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50?350 million a week for the NHS, anyone?
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Has anyone seen ?350 million a week.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57And going to stop you there, Caroline Lucas.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Let's have a show of hands.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Who, in the audience, would like a final say on a second
0:23:02 > 0:23:06referendum on the terms of Brexit?
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Damian Collins, there's quite a lot of support.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12It's not scientific but among the audience here, a second
0:23:12 > 0:23:14referendum we don't know what's going to happen.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16We don't know whether there's going to be queues at
0:23:16 > 0:23:17Dover, at Folkestone.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19If we don't get the deal right, everything is up
0:23:19 > 0:23:21in the air at the moment.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24What we know is that in two years' time will be in a position
0:23:24 > 0:23:27where this country is outside of the jurisdiction
0:23:27 > 0:23:29of the European institutions.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Outside the European Court and the European Commission.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Our parliament will set our laws and create our laws
0:23:33 > 0:23:34based on what we need.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37We'll have a migration policy based on what our economy needs
0:23:37 > 0:23:40and our society needs but not on what people in Europe
0:23:40 > 0:23:41to side is best for us.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43We'll have the freedom to negotiate trade deals with other
0:23:44 > 0:23:44countries around the world.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46Let's not forget as well that we have...
0:23:46 > 0:23:48We have a booming motor manufacturing industry in this
0:23:48 > 0:23:51country with supply chains running across Europe.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55We're also a net importer of cast.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59How likely is it, when we're in a scenario, when we are Europe
0:23:59 > 0:24:01is that best customer that they will put into place
0:24:01 > 0:24:03punitive pressure on the UK economy just to punish us.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06There may well be bureaucrats in Brussels who want to treat
0:24:06 > 0:24:07the UK in that way.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10Sensible people in Europe, business leaders, people who work
0:24:10 > 0:24:12with this country know it is in to be good neighbours
0:24:12 > 0:24:13and have a working relationship.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16You can say that as many times as you like.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18The bottom line is, if you are not inside the single market,
0:24:19 > 0:24:20there will be worse for us.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23The EU can't possibly give us a better settlement outside the EU
0:24:23 > 0:24:25and we had when we were inside.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28What we'll also have a small flexibility to do things than we can
0:24:28 > 0:24:29do as a member of the EU.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31Gentleman halfway up there in the shirt.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34The fact remains that most people did not have a clear idea
0:24:34 > 0:24:36what they were voting for.
0:24:36 > 0:24:44APPLAUSE
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Fishermen in Hastings voted to stay because they thought
0:24:46 > 0:24:49they were going to get better quota for their fishing.
0:24:49 > 0:24:50They already know they're not.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53They wasted their vote, and so did the rest of us.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56Thanks to Cameron we're now up the creek in a barbed wire
0:24:56 > 0:24:57canoe without a paddle.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58Thank you very much.
0:24:58 > 0:25:04The gentleman behind you, please.
0:25:04 > 0:25:04So, Mr Lucas.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07If you and your colleague were in charge of the country,
0:25:07 > 0:25:10you would say, I don't like this first referendum result,
0:25:10 > 0:25:11I want another one.
0:25:11 > 0:25:12OK.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15But, if they still came back saying, whether it was the same or went
0:25:15 > 0:25:18up again, do you say, I want a third referendum
0:25:18 > 0:25:19and would you accept it?
0:25:19 > 0:25:20I am really clear.
0:25:20 > 0:25:30Sign up at the moment, the situation is, Tulisa may,
0:25:32 > 0:25:34-- Theresa May, under pressure, has said that MPs should
0:25:34 > 0:25:37have the right to have the final say on the deal.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40All the greens are saying is that we think the British public
0:25:40 > 0:25:42settled for this process and they should sign it.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45You should have the right, the British people, not just MPs,
0:25:45 > 0:25:46to sign up final deal.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Surely, if you still want it, then end of story, you get it.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52If you don't, and if you are motivated by the number of lives
0:25:52 > 0:25:54lies that have been told during the whole Leave
0:25:54 > 0:25:55campaign, and you decide
0:25:55 > 0:25:56you don't want it...
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Let's go to the audience.
0:25:58 > 0:25:59The gentleman now.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01Link to this topic is the fact we've got tens of thousands
0:26:01 > 0:26:03of Europeans settled here, living here, working here.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06And Theresa May is holding it as a ransom against what's
0:26:06 > 0:26:16going to happen to our lot if she says Dominic
0:26:23 > 0:26:25-- made the first start we're trying to leave.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28If she made the first art and allowed them to stay here,
0:26:28 > 0:26:31you'll be a very positive message to 27 to follow our lead
0:26:31 > 0:26:32and perhaps ease negotiations.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37We are going to move on.
0:26:37 > 0:26:43We got another question from Tricia.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45Thank you.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47Given the advances in medical science, and the increasingly ageing
0:26:47 > 0:26:50population, however much money is put into the NHS,
0:26:50 > 0:26:53it will never be sufficient.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Do radical changes need to take place?
0:26:55 > 0:26:56That's come to Kelly Marie Blundell first.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00You're proposing a 1p rise in income tax in order to help the NHS.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02According to the ISS, it's not nearly enough of that we'd
0:27:02 > 0:27:04still have a ?9 billion hole by 2021.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06So, what's the answer, to keep increasing taxes?
0:27:06 > 0:27:07Absolutely.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08It's not keep increasing taxes.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11What we propose in our manifesto is a penny in the pound
0:27:11 > 0:27:12rise in income tax.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Quite simply, our NHS is at breaking point.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16We need to see in best that.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18They needed to stay free at the point of access.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21This is the best way we can see initially to fund that.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24It's not enough to keep it in line with the current provisions
0:27:24 > 0:27:26and we want to raise more money.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28It has to be done so we keep the NHS.
0:27:28 > 0:27:29It's a fantastic institution.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Let's keep in mind as well, in 2020, there will be more people aged 50
0:27:33 > 0:27:37and over and 50 and under in the UK for that we have no plan for how
0:27:37 > 0:27:40the NHS and the health and social care are going to cope with that.
0:27:40 > 0:27:44We need to see investment we need to see radical overhaul to make sure
0:27:44 > 0:27:46we keep our NHS free at the point of access.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49What you are saying, by putting a penny on income tax
0:27:49 > 0:27:52to help the NHS and social care, you're in effect asking hard-working
0:27:52 > 0:27:53families to subsidise, quite often, wealthy elderly people
0:27:53 > 0:27:54who need the care.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56In what way is that a progressive tax?
0:27:56 > 0:27:59Is regressive because everyone I've spoken to settle a gruesome zero
0:27:59 > 0:28:02to invest in the NHS and make sure we have more investments are people
0:28:02 > 0:28:04get the care they need and deserve.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08Why should someone be to get a dish and get it cut off next year?
0:28:08 > 0:28:10We need to make sure that the NHS remains universal for everybody.
0:28:11 > 0:28:11OK.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13Damian Collins...
0:28:13 > 0:28:14Again, you're offering more money.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16There's a lot of discussion about whether the money is new money.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20What is agreed by the IFF, the think tank, is it is not nearly
0:28:20 > 0:28:22going to be enough to help the NHS.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25It's in a dire state in this part of the world under
0:28:25 > 0:28:26the Conservative government.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29I think Tricia's and must put really wealth was that it is right that
0:28:29 > 0:28:30more money has gone in.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33We put in the extra money in the last parliament that
0:28:33 > 0:28:35NHS England asked for, and extra 10 billion.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38There's 8 billion in the manifesto for more funding for the NHS as well
0:28:38 > 0:28:40with even more of that going into primary
0:28:40 > 0:28:41care to support GPs.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44The large amount of growth in the budget will be
0:28:44 > 0:28:45in primary care.
0:28:45 > 0:28:51I think that's right as well.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54We have the challenge of rising demand because of an ageing society
0:28:54 > 0:28:57for stuff we have to think about how we respond to that.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59That's not just about throwing money at the NHS.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Can I just remind you, all but one hospital trust in this
0:29:02 > 0:29:04part of the world is either inadequate or requires improvement?
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Brighton last 2600 days, just in January this year,
0:29:07 > 0:29:09because of the number of patients stuck in bed unable
0:29:09 > 0:29:10to leave the hospital.
0:29:10 > 0:29:11We're in a crisis here.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12You're offering more money.
0:29:12 > 0:29:13It's not enough.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15Since the last election, we've seen a significant improvement
0:29:15 > 0:29:18in the East Kent Hospital trust in terms of its rating
0:29:18 > 0:29:24by the Care Quality Commission.
0:29:24 > 0:29:33Look at the CQC's report.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37It sets out in black and white and you can
0:29:37 > 0:29:38read it for yourself.
0:29:38 > 0:29:39We're also seeing...
0:29:39 > 0:29:40Is seeing nearly half ?1 billion invested
0:29:40 > 0:29:43in the Royal Sussex County Hospital in Brighton as well.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45We've seen new community beds being delivered in New Haven.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48We are seeing new investment in the health service that
0:29:48 > 0:29:49delivers better facilities.
0:29:49 > 0:29:50Let's move on.
0:29:50 > 0:29:51The gentleman on the front row here.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53I just think it's really important, when big
0:29:53 > 0:29:55numbers gets thrown around, 500 billion, 500 million,
0:29:55 > 0:29:57it's impossible to know what that actually means really.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59It's so much money.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01Is that 1% of the budget?
0:30:01 > 0:30:05Is it 20%?
0:30:05 > 0:30:08I think we have to just be very careful to know the reality
0:30:08 > 0:30:10of what these numbers and figures mean and not just be
0:30:10 > 0:30:12brainwashed by them.
0:30:12 > 0:30:13OK.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15It's the cost of creating a new hospital in Brighton.
0:30:15 > 0:30:16That's the cost.
0:30:16 > 0:30:18The community benefit is the new hospital.
0:30:18 > 0:30:19That's the benefit.
0:30:19 > 0:30:20Peter Chowney, you're offering 30 billion,
0:30:20 > 0:30:22I think it is, to help the NHS.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25There is a serious doubt about where you get that money from,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28even if you do get hold of it through the tax system.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30Serious doubt about whether it will be enough again.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33I was just going to keep pumping money into the NHS?
0:30:33 > 0:30:36I think, inevitably, the NHS will cost more and more money.
0:30:36 > 0:30:37What is the talented?
0:30:37 > 0:30:46A radical rethink is the suggestion.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48Radical rethink to what is.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51Everyone needs health care, unless you move away
0:30:51 > 0:30:53from the universal health care and make people stop
0:30:53 > 0:30:56paying for health care, what else are we going to do?
0:30:56 > 0:31:06There are things like, there are better preventative health care.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15There are things like, there are better preventative health care.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20There are lots of other things we can do to reduce that tax burden.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24But it's not going to reduce the demand on the NHS for more funding.
0:31:24 > 0:31:25We are an ageing population.
0:31:25 > 0:31:27Not blaming older people, it's just a fact.
0:31:27 > 0:31:28We are an ageing population.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31And there are all sorts of things we can do around raising more taxes,
0:31:32 > 0:31:32closing tax loopholes.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35There are all sorts of ways we can raise money.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38The important thing is to keep the NHS free for those who use it,
0:31:38 > 0:31:39free universal health care.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42But we have to still be able to take advantage
0:31:42 > 0:31:44of the new advances, the new drugs, the new treatment
0:31:44 > 0:31:47in the NHS, and the fact we've got an older population.
0:31:47 > 0:31:48It will cost a lot more.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Better preventative health care will help and we can get
0:31:50 > 0:31:51it through taxation.
0:31:51 > 0:31:52Just a reminder, audience.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54I know feelings are running high.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57We can just hear a shout in the distance, so it's not
0:31:57 > 0:31:58terribly helpful, thank you.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01Caroline Lucas, you want to phase in a four day working week.
0:32:01 > 0:32:02That's in your manifesto.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04How many more doctors and nurses would you need?
0:32:04 > 0:32:05This is very long-term, Natalie.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07Camp I really address the NHS question first?
0:32:07 > 0:32:09The NHS is going to need more and more resources.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11Taking staff away, in effect.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13At the moment, the NHS has such amazing, wonderful people who work
0:32:13 > 0:32:16on it but they are absolutely overstretched because there
0:32:16 > 0:32:17are huge shortages.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19The NHS is not the place where we're going to start
0:32:19 > 0:32:21with a four-day week, can I say?
0:32:21 > 0:32:24What I want to say is, we are the fifth biggest
0:32:24 > 0:32:25economy in the world.
0:32:25 > 0:32:26The NHS is already very efficient.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29If we're seriously saying the fifth biggest economy in the world can't
0:32:29 > 0:32:32afford a decent health care system I don't know why were saying that.
0:32:32 > 0:32:33We can afford it.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36We put less into our health system as a percentage of GDP than most
0:32:36 > 0:32:37other European countries.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39France, Germany, and so forth.
0:32:39 > 0:32:40Put less in.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42You want to spend ?176 billion more a year
0:32:42 > 0:32:43than the current government plans.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45But no one knows that these are untested taxes
0:32:45 > 0:32:46you want to introduce.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48People changing their behaviour.
0:32:48 > 0:32:53You can't guarantee you can raise the money you need.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55I can guarantee that, in the fifth biggest
0:32:55 > 0:32:58economy in the world, if we want to have a decent health
0:32:58 > 0:32:59service, we can afford it.
0:32:59 > 0:33:00It's down to political choices.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Under this government for reducing corporation tax go right down
0:33:03 > 0:33:05from 28% right down to 19 now.
0:33:05 > 0:33:06We've got this idea of 17% as well.
0:33:06 > 0:33:07It attracts more investment.
0:33:07 > 0:33:12We are not paying their way.
0:33:12 > 0:33:14It means that your companies are not paying their way.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17With more revenue for corporation tax now it's being cut
0:33:17 > 0:33:18because it attracts more investment.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22It's a misnomer to show that Labour in particular, and the Greens,
0:33:22 > 0:33:23they don't understand how the taxation works.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27They don't understand.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29They know how it feels when corporation tax is cut
0:33:29 > 0:33:31when working age benefits are cut under your government.
0:33:31 > 0:33:34It feels to them as though you're on the side of corporations
0:33:34 > 0:33:42and you're not on the side of low earners.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Cutting the corporation tax has brought in tens of billions
0:33:44 > 0:33:46of pounds more revenue to the Treasury because it
0:33:46 > 0:33:47attracts more investment.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49How low would you like it to go?
0:33:49 > 0:33:505%, 2%?
0:33:50 > 0:33:52It's about getting the balance right.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56Yes, isn't it?
0:33:56 > 0:33:59That's what we achieved.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02It's brought more business investment in.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05So, revenues have grown.
0:34:05 > 0:34:08Labour will say and the Greens will say, we're going to hike
0:34:08 > 0:34:10up corporation tax.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14The impact of that could be that the tax take falls.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17Where are we going to find the extra money?
0:34:17 > 0:34:18Actually, the Institute for Fiscal Studies says putting
0:34:18 > 0:34:20corporation tax up will actually affect hard-working people
0:34:20 > 0:34:23at the other end of the chain are not these faceless corporations?
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Corporation tax is corporations paying their way, paying
0:34:25 > 0:34:28into our economy for the education of young people who right now
0:34:28 > 0:34:31might not get tuition fees but right now our young people are having
0:34:31 > 0:34:33to pay massive tuition fees because corporations don't
0:34:33 > 0:34:34invest in education.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36They paying more for our education system?
0:34:36 > 0:34:37They benefit from extremely educated people.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40When their taxes go up, people pay more for goods.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42People earn less than they work for those companies.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45It has a trickle down effect was that it is not isolated.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48We were not paying massively more for goods in 2010 then we are now.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51Over that period, corporation tax has gone down from, what is it?
0:34:51 > 0:34:5228%, to around 19%.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55As you say, Damian, you want it down to 17% and goodness knows how
0:34:55 > 0:34:56much lower than that.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59Our vision for Britain is not one where we are a bargain
0:34:59 > 0:35:00basement tax haven.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04It might be OK for the Tories but it's not OK for the rest of us.
0:35:04 > 0:35:05It raises more revenue.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08We take more taxes from companies in corporation tax with a lower
0:35:08 > 0:35:10competitive rate it encourages international businesses to invest
0:35:10 > 0:35:11here and create jobs here.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14In a post-Brexit economy, that's going to be even more important.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16I think this is a total false choice.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18It could damage the economy, bring has lost revenue
0:35:18 > 0:35:20and less money to spend on the health service.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22It has been developed by people who don't understand
0:35:22 > 0:35:23how business works.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26I'd really like to squeeze in another question from Anna Dawes.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28The NHS provides totally free cancer care but doesn't provides totally
0:35:28 > 0:35:31free care for dementia.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33Why should any OAPs be forced to sell their homes
0:35:33 > 0:35:38to provide for this?
0:35:38 > 0:35:42APPLAUSE
0:35:45 > 0:35:48I hate to say it but I think that's one of the first
0:35:48 > 0:35:50points of the evening you've just made.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52We always speak about the NHS is being free
0:35:52 > 0:35:54from the cradle to the grave.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56It's not.
0:35:56 > 0:36:00Once you get ill and you are old and you've got one of many conditions,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03dementia being one of them, you end up paying for it.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05Now, the Conservatives say your families don't pay
0:36:05 > 0:36:08for it after you've gone, even if you stay in your
0:36:08 > 0:36:18own home was the one of the things is, of course,
0:36:19 > 0:36:20they won't even tell us.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Theresa May won't tell us as to what cap this could be
0:36:23 > 0:36:24on the manual going to pay.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27So, all the figures that we look at for the NHS must,
0:36:27 > 0:36:30in the view of the Ukip certainly, involves social care.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32Not just national health is but it should be National health
0:36:32 > 0:36:33and social care service.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35All of these things must be taken together.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38All of these people must be looked after because they are ill.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41If you put them out on the street from their care homes,
0:36:41 > 0:36:42they're going to die.
0:36:42 > 0:36:43They should take medical care.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46Let's bring in Damian Collins will struggle social care policy
0:36:46 > 0:36:48really affects older, traditionally conservative voting
0:36:48 > 0:36:51people in the south-east of England, where there was a higher
0:36:51 > 0:36:54than average ageing population and higher
0:36:54 > 0:36:56than average property prices.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59It's another example of the way that people in the south-east feel
0:36:59 > 0:37:01the Conservative government feels it has calculated it can afford
0:37:01 > 0:37:06to hit them with this because they are going to vote Tory,
0:37:06 > 0:37:11whatever user at them.
0:37:11 > 0:37:15Let me just set out what the policy is that we have in our manifesto.
0:37:15 > 0:37:17At the moment with some of have their savings drawn down
0:37:17 > 0:37:21by ?23,000 worth of assets less.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24We say that is to lead was that it should be 100,000.
0:37:24 > 0:37:29They should have to give up, from their savings and the value
0:37:29 > 0:37:31of their house, an amount which means they have
0:37:31 > 0:37:32less than ?100,000.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34In addition to that, there should also be a cap
0:37:34 > 0:37:36on the maximum someone is required to pay.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38You introduce that when you came under pressure.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41There will be a consultation on what that level should be.
0:37:41 > 0:37:42What do you think it should be?
0:37:42 > 0:37:46For example, 90% of people, the care costs are ?100,000 or less.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49I think we should be looking at what is a reasonable
0:37:49 > 0:37:50contribution for people to make.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53I think it is right we have a policy we know is sustainable,
0:37:53 > 0:37:55affordable and fair.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58It does not take people's homes away from them and in all their savings.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00The fact is it backfired spectacularly.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04You had to relaunch your election campaign because this went down
0:38:04 > 0:38:08so badly and you know this with people in your own party.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10What did you think when you heard about it?
0:38:10 > 0:38:13We are happy to go out and sell it on the doorstep?
0:38:13 > 0:38:15What has been important is that in addition
0:38:15 > 0:38:18to what was in the manifesto, it was made clear there would be
0:38:18 > 0:38:19a cap on contributions.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21That wasn't clear from when the manifesto was launched.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23It has been made clear now.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24That is important.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26Looking at the alternatives, Jeremy Corbyn has suggested
0:38:26 > 0:38:29that the Labour Party might even increase the base rate of income
0:38:29 > 0:38:32tax from 20% to 25%, in order to pay for social care,
0:38:32 > 0:38:34shifting all the burden of that cost on working people.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36I don't think that is fair either.
0:38:36 > 0:38:37It's about getting the balance right.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40I think it's right that you raise the threshold to ?100,000,
0:38:40 > 0:38:45protecting people's in.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48There's a cap on the amount they have to pay.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50Getting the cap right is something that will be very
0:38:50 > 0:38:51important after the election.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54It sounds more like a Labour policy than a Conservative one.
0:38:54 > 0:38:56Asking wealthy people to contribute more to the rising
0:38:56 > 0:38:58costs of their care, Peter Chowney.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00I've don't think it's about wealthy people.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03It's taking away from anyone who lives in the south-east and has
0:39:03 > 0:39:05a home worth more than ?100,000.
0:39:05 > 0:39:06This is about taking away people's inheritance,
0:39:06 > 0:39:08taking away the value of the property to
0:39:08 > 0:39:14pay for social care.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16Social care should be something like the NHS.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18It should be provided free.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20While the Government is trying to tell us
0:39:20 > 0:39:22that they still fully fund the NHS, they wouldn't admit that
0:39:22 > 0:39:23for adult social care.
0:39:23 > 0:39:25Local authority budgets have been slashed since 2010.
0:39:25 > 0:39:31Massively.
0:39:31 > 0:39:33Social care, county councils and in fact unitary councils that
0:39:33 > 0:39:38run social services just simply can't afford to provide it anymore.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41Let me ask you about something else that is not in your manifesto.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Kelly Marie Blundell's party, the Liberal Democrats,
0:39:43 > 0:39:47offering to restore the benefits that have been cut for working age
0:39:47 > 0:39:49people over the last five years.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51You're not offering to do that.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53Do think that should be a Labour policy?
0:39:53 > 0:39:56I think there's a lot we can do about the welfare system.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58There is a lot about it that is horribly unfair.
0:39:58 > 0:40:04The benefit sanctions regime.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06The benefit caps that have been brought in.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08The whole system seems to be designed to punish people
0:40:08 > 0:40:09who are out of work.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12Actually, people who feel punisher to vote Liberal Democrat
0:40:12 > 0:40:14if they want to get those benefits back.
0:40:14 > 0:40:15Labour is not offering that to them.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17In the Labour Party manifesto, there's a commitment
0:40:17 > 0:40:25to reform system.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27It doesn't talk about restoring the benefits.
0:40:27 > 0:40:28Was that a mistake?
0:40:28 > 0:40:29Was it an error?
0:40:29 > 0:40:30Was it deliberate?
0:40:30 > 0:40:32I wasn't involved in drafting the Labour Party manifesto.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35I was one of the authors of the Liberal Democrat
0:40:35 > 0:40:36policy on welfare.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38I will say that their failure to include that in the manifesto
0:40:38 > 0:40:41really highlights the fact that most of the Labour MPs abstained
0:40:41 > 0:40:44on the massive cuts we saw to disabled people and the massive
0:40:44 > 0:40:49cuts we have seen to benefits as a whole.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52I think it's absolutely outrageous and there should be a much
0:40:52 > 0:40:53stronger commitment.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55Labour, quite simply, are letting the country down
0:40:55 > 0:40:57on welfare, on Brexit, on a whole number of things.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59I would like to come to Anna.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02You asked a question about having to sell your home to pay for care.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05What do you think of what you've heard?
0:41:05 > 0:41:10Yes will stop I agree with the Conservatives really on that.
0:41:10 > 0:41:11But, no.
0:41:11 > 0:41:16Only the very rich, obviously.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18You agree with the Conservatives that people should be forced
0:41:18 > 0:41:21to sell their homes?
0:41:21 > 0:41:23No, I don't agree, unless they are very
0:41:23 > 0:41:27rich and can afford it.
0:41:27 > 0:41:34The reality is 99.9% of houses in the south-east are over ?100,000.
0:41:34 > 0:41:37This means there are thousands of people that will be forced
0:41:37 > 0:41:40to sell their homes in the next five years and it will now
0:41:40 > 0:41:45hit everyone who owns their own name in this room.
0:41:45 > 0:41:47The gentleman right up the ' in glasses.
0:41:47 > 0:41:48What would you like to say?
0:41:48 > 0:41:49I am Chris.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52I am one of the people who had the misfortune
0:41:52 > 0:41:54to sell a parent's house because my mother had dementia.
0:41:54 > 0:41:55It is interesting.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58Of all the things in this election, when the history of this
0:41:58 > 0:42:00campaign is written, I think it will be that policy
0:42:00 > 0:42:03on to mention and social care from the Conservative Party that
0:42:03 > 0:42:07defines that experience.
0:42:07 > 0:42:08-- on dementia.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11In many ways, it is how we treat our old people that
0:42:11 > 0:42:14represents the level of civility that a generation that quite
0:42:14 > 0:42:16reasonably expect social care in their old age
0:42:16 > 0:42:17are being abandoned.
0:42:17 > 0:42:17Quick comments.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19Young man down here in the second row.
0:42:19 > 0:42:25There is no real attention drawn on extremism of the hard left.
0:42:25 > 0:42:27It is really getting out of hand, the sense that the left
0:42:28 > 0:42:29can get away with it.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32It is not criticised, not critiqued, on any of the hardline violence
0:42:32 > 0:42:42and sometimes extremism.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44I was just wondering, as we are discussing spending
0:42:44 > 0:42:46on the NHS and spending domestically, should we also be
0:42:46 > 0:42:49talking about our massive foreign aid budget, which is .7%?
0:42:49 > 0:42:51Obviously, in an ideal world, we should spend this money overseas.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54When we have people who are physically unable to go
0:42:54 > 0:42:57to the NHS and get the service they need, do not need also be
0:42:57 > 0:42:59discussing putting money back into the country,
0:42:59 > 0:43:09investing in our infrastructure, and supporting our vital services?
0:43:10 > 0:43:11That's all we've got time for.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13I'd like to thank the audience.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16It's very warm in here and it's been a very heated debate.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18I'd also like to thank all the members of our
0:43:18 > 0:43:21panel this evening.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23If you're in the mood for more political discussion,
0:43:23 > 0:43:26Lembit Opik is going on air right now with an election
0:43:26 > 0:43:27special on BBC Radio Kent.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30You can also join the debate on social media using
0:43:30 > 0:43:31the hash tag SE Vote.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34From everyone here in St Leonards, good night.
0:43:59 > 0:44:00Who's saying...
0:44:00 > 0:44:01What? And why?
0:44:01 > 0:44:04Hear the arguments from the politicians themselves.