:00:00. > :00:24.Welcome to Election 2017, from the Birmingham Ormiston Academy.
:00:25. > :00:29.For Ukip, the West Midlands MEP and Dudley councillor Bill Etheridge.
:00:30. > :00:34.For the Conservatives, the Communities and Local
:00:35. > :00:35.Government Secretary, Sajid Javid.
:00:36. > :00:38.For the Liberal Democrats, Martin Horwood.
:00:39. > :00:39.And for the Green Party, Ellie Chowns.
:00:40. > :00:55.And if you want to join the debate at home on social media,
:00:56. > :01:04.And let's begin right away with our first question from John Mills.
:01:05. > :01:06.In the wake of the Manchester terrorist attack, we saw armed
:01:07. > :01:09.Is this an indictment of the Conservatives'
:01:10. > :01:22.Sajid Javid, Mr Mills obviously has the 20,000 police officers who have
:01:23. > :01:25.lost their positions, you know, cut from the police force
:01:26. > :01:29.Let me say that that terrible atrocity was just one week ago
:01:30. > :01:33.and I am sure I speak for all of us when I say that our thoughts
:01:34. > :01:35.are with those victims and their families and their friends.
:01:36. > :01:38.I was honoured as Communities Secretary to attend the vigil
:01:39. > :01:40.on Tuesday in Manchester and it was really very moving
:01:41. > :01:42.to see so many people come together so quickly.
:01:43. > :01:46.We rely every day on our police to protect us and we must make sure
:01:47. > :01:51.That is one reason why in 2015 we pledged to protect
:01:52. > :01:53.the police budget, the plan for the Labour Party
:01:54. > :01:58.Of course, we must have the correct manpower in the police but we must
:01:59. > :02:00.make sure that they are properly resourced in other ways
:02:01. > :02:04.using technology and everything else that they need.
:02:05. > :02:07.We must make sure that our security services are properly resourced
:02:08. > :02:10.and that is why two budgets ago we allocated over ?2 billion in more
:02:11. > :02:14.funding so that they could go out and hire more people that can help
:02:15. > :02:18.fight crime, the kind of people that have already protected us from some
:02:19. > :02:21.18 terrorist plots that have been foiled, something that we were
:02:22. > :02:26.Are you saying then that the cuts to police numbers now
:02:27. > :02:31.What I am telling you is that we want to make
:02:32. > :02:34.sure that the police are properly resourced.
:02:35. > :02:37.What we have seen is that despite the changes in the police
:02:38. > :02:41.budget in recent years, that we have protected since 2015,
:02:42. > :02:44.we have seen a fall in recorded crime of over one third which shows
:02:45. > :02:47.us just how good a job the police can do with
:02:48. > :02:52.Khalid Mahmood, Sajid Javid says that Labour would cut police
:02:53. > :02:54.budgets, you are not in a very strong position to argue.
:02:55. > :02:59.If you look at the manifesto it said that we increased
:03:00. > :03:09.What happened was that when Theresa May was
:03:10. > :03:11.What happened was that when Theresa May was the Home Secretary,
:03:12. > :03:15.she made the cuts in the police force, the cuts to the border agency
:03:16. > :03:18.staff, the cuts to the military and I think all of which the Tory
:03:19. > :03:20.government has done over the last seven years
:03:21. > :03:23.Sajid Javid talks about technology and I agree with that,
:03:24. > :03:28.But what is really important is when you cut away 10,000 police
:03:29. > :03:30.officers is the intelligence that you get on the ground.
:03:31. > :03:33.In my area we have a community support police officer who goes
:03:34. > :03:35.around, sits in people's houses, gets information locally,
:03:36. > :03:39.He was able to do that, he can no longer do that
:03:40. > :03:43.because there are only three of them left in an area that had 20
:03:44. > :03:45.beforehand, needed in order to work the whole area.
:03:46. > :03:47.Unless you have the boots on the ground, speaking to local
:03:48. > :03:50.people and getting the proper information, it will not do.
:03:51. > :03:53.To push this back to technology is not good enough, you need
:03:54. > :03:56.the people on the ground to provide a proper and cohesive service.
:03:57. > :04:03.Martin Horwood, what is the position of the Lib Dems on this?
:04:04. > :04:06.It is a little bit early to start making accusations against one party
:04:07. > :04:10.or another and it is a shame that this has become a political
:04:11. > :04:14.football quite so soon after such a tragic incident
:04:15. > :04:18.and it is important to remember that actually, we have gone ten years,
:04:19. > :04:21.more than ten years without a really major terrorist incident like this
:04:22. > :04:25.in our country and we have actually probably foiled dozens of similar
:04:26. > :04:27.plots, and we really owe all our intelligence services,
:04:28. > :04:33.including GCHQ in my patch, and our police forces, genuine
:04:34. > :04:36.thanks for all of the innocent lives they have saved and that is really
:04:37. > :04:41.important to remember, so they are doing a very good job.
:04:42. > :04:47.Amongst the Lib Dem proposals is lifting the 1% pay cap
:04:48. > :04:50.on public sector pensions, that would make places like GCHQ
:04:51. > :04:52.more competitive in a very competitive marketplace
:04:53. > :05:02.We have made a ?300 million commitment to increase
:05:03. > :05:06.But I am not telling you that would necessarily prevent an attack
:05:07. > :05:10.and I think we cannot take such a complex issue and say that there's
:05:11. > :05:12.one thing that has caused it, there are things like the amount
:05:13. > :05:15.of money we spend worldwide on peacekeeping and peace building,
:05:16. > :05:25.Year after year after year of Conservative-led governments
:05:26. > :05:29.and when it comes to election time, they bring out highly polished,
:05:30. > :05:33.articulate, excellent communicators who tell us how they will increase
:05:34. > :05:36.budgets for policing, how they are a party of law and order,
:05:37. > :05:39.the party of security and defence, and yet, during their watch,
:05:40. > :05:45.the numbers fall, the spending falls and only at election time do we get
:05:46. > :05:47.these superbly erudite statements about how committed
:05:48. > :05:55.Quite frankly, the proof is in the pudding and year
:05:56. > :05:58.after year we are seeing cut after cut after cut to defence,
:05:59. > :06:00.to security, to policing and it is not good enough to keep
:06:01. > :06:09.You have a superb communicator for the Conservative Party
:06:10. > :06:13.who will tell you all of the right words but they are not necessarily
:06:14. > :06:18.in the right order and the problem we will have is that this is just
:06:19. > :06:21.lip service, the Tories have shown they do not care about security,
:06:22. > :06:23.defence and policing because they have cut
:06:24. > :06:27.I think we have some seriously good communicators
:06:28. > :06:29.from all the parties this evening, including Ellie Chowns
:06:30. > :06:37.To answer your question directly, I do not think that the deployment
:06:38. > :06:40.of troops on the street is in itself an indictment, I think
:06:41. > :06:43.it is an understandable response, you know, people want reassurance
:06:44. > :06:46.after such a horrific and callous attack.
:06:47. > :06:51.But I think that what we have seen are very strong cuts
:06:52. > :06:55.to the police service, 15% cuts since 2010.
:06:56. > :06:58.And so, we really do need to ask ourselves whether the government
:06:59. > :07:02.policy is making us safer or less safe.
:07:03. > :07:06.It is true that it is not just boots on the street,
:07:07. > :07:11.it is all about understanding what is going on in communities,
:07:12. > :07:13.community-led deradicalisation programmes can help to make us
:07:14. > :07:21.But I think that it is a bit rich really for the Conservatives
:07:22. > :07:24.to argue that they are investing more in the police when
:07:25. > :07:31.There have been 15% cuts and that potentially makes us all less safe.
:07:32. > :07:34.Let us go back to John Mills who asked the question,
:07:35. > :07:38.Are there particular issues where you come
:07:39. > :07:45.I live in a village south of Coventry.
:07:46. > :07:50.We do not have particular policing issues in that area and the question
:07:51. > :07:53.I asked was not directed at the fact that if we had more police
:07:54. > :07:56.that the attack would have been prevented as the Lib Dem candidate
:07:57. > :08:00.However many police you have got, it will always be difficult
:08:01. > :08:03.to defend against this kind of attack and we all
:08:04. > :08:08.However, we do get a sense that with the numbers
:08:09. > :08:11.of police that have been cut, the cuts have gone a little bit too
:08:12. > :08:14.far, they have been made to deeply and resources have been depleted
:08:15. > :08:21.I think it is time that situation was readdressed.
:08:22. > :08:23.Anyone else in the audience with a view?
:08:24. > :08:28.I think we should have stayed in Europe and shared our
:08:29. > :08:42.One of the things that concerns me is that this chap
:08:43. > :08:45.was being monitored by the security services, but was able to get out
:08:46. > :08:48.of the country and come back in on a different passport.
:08:49. > :08:51.If you have things like fingerprint recognition at the airports,
:08:52. > :08:55.that would be pretty much nigh-on impossible to get around.
:08:56. > :08:58.There should have been this sort of investment.
:08:59. > :09:00.This person was clearly being monitored by the security
:09:01. > :09:03.services and managed to come back under a different passport.
:09:04. > :09:07.Thank you, this is the point where we will move on.
:09:08. > :09:16.Onto our next question now which comes from Jemma Yoloye.
:09:17. > :09:18.Theresa May voted to remain in the EU and is now
:09:19. > :09:24.She stated there would be no snap election and now we are in one,
:09:25. > :09:26.she has made a huge U-turn on what was dubbed
:09:27. > :09:29.How can Theresa May cope with negotiating with members
:09:30. > :09:33.of the EU, when it is quite clear she often breaks under pressure?
:09:34. > :09:35.I'm going to come to you first on this, Khalid Mahmood,
:09:36. > :09:38.because your leader has a few questions about his consistency
:09:39. > :09:42.as well, so it is not confined to any one particular leader.
:09:43. > :09:44.Firstly, Theresa May, she sounds hard and wants to stand out,
:09:45. > :09:47.good sound bites on TV but there is no substance.
:09:48. > :09:51.That is what the real issue is, the amount of U-turns she has done,
:09:52. > :09:55.The dementia tax, the U-turn within the manifesto
:09:56. > :10:07.That is what the problem is, that is what people must recognise
:10:08. > :10:10.is that she talks big but cannot deliver under pressure, has not been
:10:11. > :10:15.Calling this election because she said it would give
:10:16. > :10:18.She had three quarters of the MP supporting her,
:10:19. > :10:20.two thirds of the Lords supporting her.
:10:21. > :10:22.So why is she now wanting to do this?
:10:23. > :10:25.She only did it because she thought she could capitalise and get more
:10:26. > :10:28.votes for the party and hopefully people are not fooled by that
:10:29. > :10:33.Bearing in mind that your leader on the television said last night
:10:34. > :10:36.that he hoped that Theresa May does well in the Brexit negotiations.
:10:37. > :10:49.The point is that whoever the Prime Minister is at
:10:50. > :10:52.the end of this process, it is IN national interest
:10:53. > :10:54.that they do well but we started off the Prime Minister
:10:55. > :10:57.who were supposedly strong and stable, as it goes
:10:58. > :10:58.on she is increasingly weak and wobbly.
:10:59. > :11:06.The point we here is that Theresa May is talking a good game,
:11:07. > :11:08.it is about the other point I made, talk, presentation, spin.
:11:09. > :11:15.As this campaign goes on, do you really see Theresa May
:11:16. > :11:17.pushing through a clean, proper Brexit?
:11:18. > :11:23.I do not believe what she is saying, she is saying because it plays
:11:24. > :11:27.At the end of the day, we have to be able to trust
:11:28. > :11:31.There are so many occasions that she has backtracked
:11:32. > :11:34.Already just in a few weeks of the campaign.
:11:35. > :11:38.When she goes to Brussels, I know some of the people
:11:39. > :11:40.she will negotiate with, they are not soft, they are watching
:11:41. > :11:47.The point that Bill makes is that bearing in mind that climb-down over
:11:48. > :11:55.as some commentators have said, the spell of leadership
:11:56. > :11:58.in which the Tories have rested so much in this campaign has
:11:59. > :12:03.We had a referendum, there was a clear decision
:12:04. > :12:05.by the British people, the people in this room
:12:06. > :12:08.who would have looked at both sides of the debate.
:12:09. > :12:11.It was to ask the British people, that's the point of the referendum.
:12:12. > :12:14.It is our job as politicians to get on with it and to deliver
:12:15. > :12:16.what the British people have voted for.
:12:17. > :12:18.The Conservatives have agreed to that, led by
:12:19. > :12:23.We want to make a success of Brexit, the Labour Party has
:12:24. > :12:26.failed to accept that, we do not even know their policies.
:12:27. > :12:29.The Lib Dems, despite their name, they do not believe in the outcome.
:12:30. > :12:35.They want to rerun the whole thing again.
:12:36. > :12:37.Members of the House of Lords want to re-run
:12:38. > :12:42.We need to get on with it and that is why we are having this
:12:43. > :12:44.election, it is an opportunity for the British people
:12:45. > :12:47.to back Theresa May, the one person that can take us
:12:48. > :12:51.through this and get a successful outcome, the only one.
:12:52. > :13:07.Given that Theresa May just went so big on strengthening her hand,
:13:08. > :13:10.in a very sort of personal and direct way, to start
:13:11. > :13:13.presidential and solid, now she is in a sense
:13:14. > :13:19.reaping her difficult reward from that?
:13:20. > :13:27.Every vote will strengthen our hand. The more that Theresa May can
:13:28. > :13:30.negotiate. Remember, it is not just the European Union negotiation, we
:13:31. > :13:34.are dealing with 27 other leaders. This will be one of the most complex
:13:35. > :13:37.negotiations we have ever faced as a country, Theresa May has the
:13:38. > :13:44.experience, the determination and the strength to see it through and
:13:45. > :13:48.make sure there is a good outcome for Britain. I think it does smack a
:13:49. > :13:52.bit of opportunism to be honest. The various changes that we have seen on
:13:53. > :13:56.the part of Theresa May. And not strong and stable government at all.
:13:57. > :14:01.She is following them up someone else, potentially over the cliff
:14:02. > :14:07.edge of a hard Brexit. By difficult, potentially. With the Brexit, people
:14:08. > :14:11.voted for lots of different ways and there is no point rehashing that
:14:12. > :14:15.argument. There is some opportunities that we face with
:14:16. > :14:20.Brexit. I come from Herefordshire, a farming area, we have the
:14:21. > :14:23.opportunity to rethink how we use our agricultural subsidies. They
:14:24. > :14:28.could have another referendum, that will just add to the confusion door.
:14:29. > :14:32.I do not think so, the referendum set the direction but it did not set
:14:33. > :14:37.exactly what type of Brexit we would have. I think there is a risk that
:14:38. > :14:43.Theresa May would take this into a hard Brexit, tearing up all sorts of
:14:44. > :14:46.agreements that we have got, many environmental laws, many of our
:14:47. > :14:51.environmental protections come from Europe, one third of them are in
:14:52. > :14:55.danger of moving back to UK law. We think it is right in the Green Party
:14:56. > :14:56.that there should be a vote, a ratification referendum on the final
:14:57. > :15:01.deal once on the table. In the meantime, I'd like to say,
:15:02. > :15:04.I don't think that we should get so distracted by Brexit
:15:05. > :15:07.that we forget about everything else You know, there are lots of things
:15:08. > :15:11.that we can and should be doing. Building a strong,
:15:12. > :15:13.sustainable local economy. We should be getting
:15:14. > :15:15.on with that as well as having Martin, yours, the Liberal Democrats
:15:16. > :15:19.are the other party that There's a tension with that
:15:20. > :15:24.and the obvious demands going into negotiations which are,
:15:25. > :15:29.after all, about Brexit. Well, just a start by saying to you,
:15:30. > :15:32.Sajid, we are not questioning You want a second referendum
:15:33. > :15:38.on the absolute terms? We have set out on a voyage,
:15:39. > :15:40.OK, that's fine. But if halfway across
:15:41. > :15:43.the North Atlantic you see a bunch of icebergs ahead,
:15:44. > :15:45.and you think you're going to crash into them,
:15:46. > :15:48.we just want you to have the right to turn round and go
:15:49. > :15:50.back to a safe haven. Especially if you have a captain
:15:51. > :15:53.who has a habit of taking U-turns every five minutes
:15:54. > :15:55.on every policy going. It's not something that
:15:56. > :15:59.inspires confidence, is it? My main complaint about the way
:16:00. > :16:01.the Conservatives are approaching the Brexit negotiations is this
:16:02. > :16:04.incredibly confrontational They need to go on a collective
:16:05. > :16:14.negotiating skills course. I mean, Michael Howard,
:16:15. > :16:16.saying he'd be prepared to go to war Well, that's one veto
:16:17. > :16:22.lined up for the final If you go into a negotiation
:16:23. > :16:31.by trying to insult and be aggressive to the people
:16:32. > :16:33.you are negotiating with you will not succeed
:16:34. > :16:39.and only one country, only one country out of 27 has
:16:40. > :16:42.to veto even a transitional deal And that could be a complete
:16:43. > :16:46.catastrophe for this country. And, if the negotiations
:16:47. > :16:48.go well, fine. But if there is a bad deal,
:16:49. > :16:51.or if there is no deal at all We ought to have the
:16:52. > :16:56.right to think again. Let's go back now to Jemma,
:16:57. > :16:58.who asked this question. I saw you nodding your
:16:59. > :17:00.head during that. What do you make of
:17:01. > :17:02.what we've been hearing? Conservatives haven't answered
:17:03. > :17:05.the question directly because I'm asking how can we put trust
:17:06. > :17:08.in Theresa May if she is making When she activated Article 50
:17:09. > :17:16.there was no mention of what is going to happen
:17:17. > :17:19.to Gibraltar which, again, shows We can't trust someone so weak
:17:20. > :17:23.to negotiate anything Anybody want to talk
:17:24. > :17:25.about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership I think Jeremy Corbyn is a very
:17:26. > :17:35.strong and principled man and I look at Theresa May,
:17:36. > :17:37.I watched her last night on television, and I watched
:17:38. > :17:40.Jeremy Corbyn on television, having a debate on Channel 4
:17:41. > :17:44.and all I saw from Theresa May was somebody that wanted to wriggle
:17:45. > :17:46.out of talking about things. And she won't even debate
:17:47. > :17:52.with Jeremy Corbyn. If you won't have a debate
:17:53. > :17:55.with the leader of the Labour Party, how on earth are we supposed
:17:56. > :17:59.to expect her to negotiate Brexit? Anyone defend Theresa
:18:00. > :18:05.May in all this? You're saying Theresa May squirmed
:18:06. > :18:13.out of questions and whatever else, can we ask Jeremy Corbyn squirming
:18:14. > :18:17.on the issue of national security and his past
:18:18. > :18:19.negotiations with the IRA, Hezbollah, and Hamas,
:18:20. > :18:21.are they not issues that need Issues of sovereignty
:18:22. > :18:25.and protecting our nation. Theresa May is strongest
:18:26. > :18:28.and protecting our nation. She will continue to protect
:18:29. > :18:35.our nation when crime is turning to cyber and not boots
:18:36. > :18:38.on the ground. The same with the
:18:39. > :18:39.Brexit negotiation. I supported it and will
:18:40. > :18:41.continue to support One final word before we move
:18:42. > :18:46.on from the man in the blue shirt. I think the biggest dichotomy we've
:18:47. > :18:48.got in politics across the board at the moment is that whilst we have
:18:49. > :18:52.all sorts of people standing to be leaders, they will all
:18:53. > :18:54.have their own personal beliefs and the big challenge they've got
:18:55. > :18:57.is the fact that they are leading parties which democratically come up
:18:58. > :18:59.with what they believe. That's the biggest challenge
:19:00. > :19:01.they have, really. Briefly, if you would,
:19:02. > :19:04.because we must move on. Jeremy Corbyn cannot
:19:05. > :19:08.even lead his own party. 90% of his own MPs voted
:19:09. > :19:10.against him, including Khalid. What Jeremy Corbyn has done
:19:11. > :19:17.through this manifesto is listening He hasn't decided to lock himself
:19:18. > :19:22.in a room with a special adviser, not even listening
:19:23. > :19:24.to the Shadow Cabinet, or the Cabinet, as Theresa May has
:19:25. > :19:27.done, she's actually delivered That's what they're
:19:28. > :19:32.running scared of. He's the one who's embraced people,
:19:33. > :19:35.who wants to get to the general We really do have to move
:19:36. > :19:43.on to our next question Why can't the two major parties be
:19:44. > :19:51.honest and admit we need to raise income tax by 1p in the pound
:19:52. > :19:54.to fund our NHS and social Martin, I saw you
:19:55. > :20:09.applauding the question. This has obviously been
:20:10. > :20:11.Liberal Democrat policy for some time and its restated in this
:20:12. > :20:13.election campaign, as well. We've got a crazy situation
:20:14. > :20:17.where we have the Conservative Party pretending you can have NHS
:20:18. > :20:19.and social care on the cheap. With Labour pretending that you can
:20:20. > :20:25.promise everything under the moon but only the super-rich
:20:26. > :20:27.will have to pay for it. The fairest, most straightforward
:20:28. > :20:30.way to get the vast amount of cash that the NHS and social care
:20:31. > :20:33.really needs in this country is two, first of all,
:20:34. > :20:35.put that 1p on income tax. 2 billion for social care,
:20:36. > :20:39.the rest into the NHS, including specific sums for mental
:20:40. > :20:41.health, which is a really important issue and particularly
:20:42. > :20:44.for children's mental health, I would say and young
:20:45. > :20:48.people's mental health. And that is the kind
:20:49. > :20:50.of bold step that we need. That will solve the problem
:20:51. > :20:53.for a while but we also need a consensus amongst
:20:54. > :20:55.all of the parties What are the issues on NHS
:20:56. > :21:02.in Cheltenham and Gloucester, Well, the issue we've got,
:21:03. > :21:10.like most NHS trusts, we had one that, two years ago,
:21:11. > :21:13.was not flush with money Now it's in deficit, like most other
:21:14. > :21:17.NHS trusts around the country. So, for instance, my top priority
:21:18. > :21:22.is to get our A open full-time, 24-hours a day, it's downgraded
:21:23. > :21:25.at night, at the moment, how can I do that if the local NHS
:21:26. > :21:29.is looking at cuts and savings, And that's just the wrong approach
:21:30. > :21:34.for a local NHS to have to take. We need to solve that immediate
:21:35. > :21:38.financial crisis and then look at the long-term sustainable future
:21:39. > :21:40.of the NHS, which includes, actually, working on some
:21:41. > :21:43.of the things that stop people going to hospital,
:21:44. > :21:45.like investing in public health and making ourselves
:21:46. > :21:52.a healthier society altogether. Bill, I saw you pulling a bit
:21:53. > :21:56.of a face there during one Is that on the basis
:21:57. > :21:59.of your experience in Well, I was a hospital
:22:00. > :22:03.governor for three years. And the reason why I resigned
:22:04. > :22:06.from that was because the hospital car parking fees were being put up
:22:07. > :22:09.without any democratic vote of the governors and,
:22:10. > :22:11.of course, where did they go? Like so much else,
:22:12. > :22:15.into the PFI projects. The whole thing with the NHS is that
:22:16. > :22:18.successive governments have allowed PFI to get involved
:22:19. > :22:22.and they are creaming off profits. The only thing that is worse
:22:23. > :22:24.than a public monopoly Now, when you come to this issue
:22:25. > :22:33.about raising income tax. It is always the first thing
:22:34. > :22:37.that the traditional parties say. "Let's take more tax,
:22:38. > :22:39.let's take more money off Well, our party has put forward
:22:40. > :22:45.a plan that puts ?11 billion a year more into the NHS and social care
:22:46. > :22:48.without raising income tax It's simply a case,
:22:49. > :22:53.if you look where you put your money and you look
:22:54. > :22:55.where you spend your time. At the end of the day,
:22:56. > :22:58.we don't need to keep This country has a massive burden
:22:59. > :23:12.of taxation on people. You look at your pay packet
:23:13. > :23:15.at the end of the month. Government has to make tough
:23:16. > :23:18.decisions, prioritise, we're going to commit ?11 billion
:23:19. > :23:20.a year more to that. You're taking the money off really,
:23:21. > :23:24.really poor people and giving it to people who aren't quite so poor
:23:25. > :23:27.but are local to us. India with more
:23:28. > :23:30.millionaires than ours. It's going to hit really, really
:23:31. > :23:33.poor people who have got a penny. I think Bill Etheridge had
:23:34. > :23:39.you in mind when he was talking about taxation because,
:23:40. > :23:40.obviously, Labour would tax Unlike the liberals who been running
:23:41. > :23:45.this idea of a penny in a pound for the last almost 15 years,
:23:46. > :23:47.it hasn't got them anywhere. I think if they want to be serious
:23:48. > :23:50.about providing a proper national health service,
:23:51. > :23:52.they've got to realistically look at how they can get the money
:23:53. > :23:55.and how they do it properly. What the Labour Party says, we'll
:23:56. > :23:58.tax the 5% of the richest people. We'll take money from corporation
:23:59. > :24:01.tax and we'll try and make Is that going to help
:24:02. > :24:05.hospital services in That's hospital services
:24:06. > :24:08.across the country. Of course, Birmingham will get
:24:09. > :24:13.a proportion of that. What the Tories have done,
:24:14. > :24:16.and they keep saying they'll raise it, in real terms,
:24:17. > :24:18.whatever raise they are talking about now would be less
:24:19. > :24:21.than what they've already had. We've got huge amount
:24:22. > :24:23.of shortage of nurses, we've got a huge amount of shortage
:24:24. > :24:26.of staff and I know that because I've had people go
:24:27. > :24:27.into hospitals, What Bill was saying
:24:28. > :24:30.is just absolute nonsense. If you do a proper service,
:24:31. > :24:33.you're going to be playing a role in the International community
:24:34. > :24:36.as we are, what we're going to do is look at the whole the world
:24:37. > :24:40.but we've got to importantly look Efficiency is part of the word
:24:41. > :24:45.I think Bill wanted to use as well The National Health Service
:24:46. > :24:48.is the most efficient worldwide service that there
:24:49. > :24:51.is and we want to invest in it I'll bring Sajid Javid
:24:52. > :24:56.in on this in a moment. There are big issues
:24:57. > :25:06.in hospital services but let's hear before
:25:07. > :25:15.that from Ellie Chowns. To answer your question,
:25:16. > :25:18.we've got to invest more in public services and that money has
:25:19. > :25:20.to come from tax. I think we've really got to get
:25:21. > :25:23.away from this idea that Tax is the way that we collectively
:25:24. > :25:27.pay for things that we can't Actually, the tax burden in this
:25:28. > :25:32.country is lower than in most other Now, there have been well over
:25:33. > :25:37.?100 billion of tax cuts since 2010 and the vast majority of that has
:25:38. > :25:41.gone to the top half of households. So, the greens argue that we should
:25:42. > :25:44.reverse those tax cuts and we should Are there particular
:25:45. > :25:48.problems in Herefordshire? We've also got a PFI hospital,
:25:49. > :25:51.so we're paying through the nose for that sort of contract
:25:52. > :25:53.which was started under the Tories. Would you reverse the tax breaks
:25:54. > :25:56.that the Liberal Democrats gave We wouldn't reverse tax
:25:57. > :25:59.breaks to the lowest paid. We believe in progressive taxation
:26:00. > :26:02.where those who have more contribute more towards the things that bring
:26:03. > :26:04.us all together. Sajid Javid, we've heard
:26:05. > :26:06.from a variety of experiences You've got a particular sharp edged
:26:07. > :26:12.one there in Redditch with services down graded,
:26:13. > :26:13.particular budgetary pressure there. Well, first, can I say
:26:14. > :26:23.with all respect to Ellie, a couple points she just made
:26:24. > :26:26.there are completely wrong. The tax cuts in the last seven years
:26:27. > :26:29.have gone to 31 million people. So, the lowest paid people
:26:30. > :26:32.in our country, 3 million people These are Resolution
:26:33. > :26:34.Foundation figures that The top 1% today pay
:26:35. > :26:38.27% of all income tax, which is the highest proportion
:26:39. > :26:41.they have ever paid in history. What will it take to help
:26:42. > :26:43.the Alex Hospital in Redditch? What it will take, whether it's
:26:44. > :26:46.the Alex, or anywhere else around the country,
:26:47. > :26:50.the only way we can sustainably fund our precious public services,
:26:51. > :26:53.including our NHS is by having Last year, we were the
:26:54. > :26:57.fastest-growing economy in the G7. We have more people employed
:26:58. > :27:02.today than ever before. Once they are in these jobs,
:27:03. > :27:05.they pay taxes which then pay That's the virtuous circle that pays
:27:06. > :27:09.for these public services. And if we get Brexit wrong,
:27:10. > :27:12.all of that is at risk. No, let's just get a quick word
:27:13. > :27:17.from Sandra who asked the question. What do you make
:27:18. > :27:19.of what you've heard? I do agree with quite a lot
:27:20. > :27:26.of what has been said. But I do think we also need
:27:27. > :27:29.to have a long-term plan, Because that's what's putting
:27:30. > :27:33.the pressure on our NHS, as we saw I know we could go on but I'm afraid
:27:34. > :27:38.in order to get as many questions and answers as we can,
:27:39. > :27:43.we do need to move on. If you're just joining us, welcome
:27:44. > :27:46.to our Midlands Today special. You can join this debate from home,
:27:47. > :27:55.using the hashtag on the screen now. Our next question now
:27:56. > :27:59.which comes from Jack Downes. In the past seven years,
:28:00. > :28:02.the government have not met their "tens of thousands"
:28:03. > :28:05.target on immigration. The target is not working,
:28:06. > :28:08.why are they sticking to it? I'm going to come to you first,
:28:09. > :28:14.Bill Etheridge because this is obviously Ukip's big
:28:15. > :28:15.issue, immigration. At least the Conservatives
:28:16. > :28:18.are putting a number on it. They actually get record numbers
:28:19. > :28:29.of people entering the country. If you're going to make a promise
:28:30. > :28:31.at least do something you at least have some intention
:28:32. > :28:35.of following through. Mrs May was the Home Secretary
:28:36. > :28:38.at the time when immigration hit Quite simply, this is another
:28:39. > :28:44.example of the lady not How would the Black Country
:28:45. > :28:51.economy fare with your That would slow the economy
:28:52. > :28:54.down, wouldn't it? That's over a phased
:28:55. > :28:56.in period of five years. The Australian style points
:28:57. > :28:58.system that we put forward What would it do
:28:59. > :29:01.to the economy then? Well, we believe that
:29:02. > :29:03.immigration is required. You need to get people coming
:29:04. > :29:08.in to help the economy. It's simply a case of making sure
:29:09. > :29:11.that the people who come bring the required benefits,
:29:12. > :29:13.skills, and something Look, without people coming
:29:14. > :29:18.in will be in a sorry state. But, on the other hand,
:29:19. > :29:21.if you've got people filling low skilled jobs that young people
:29:22. > :29:23.are beginning to start off with, just like I did when I was a young
:29:24. > :29:27.man, stacking crates in a factory, if those jobs are taken,
:29:28. > :29:30.where do our young people start? There is a record number of youth
:29:31. > :29:32.unemployment in this country. Because they're's
:29:33. > :29:41.nowhere to start from. And, frankly, the number of people
:29:42. > :29:43.coming in from the EU, nothing whatsoever against those
:29:44. > :29:45.people, I don't blame them one little bit,
:29:46. > :29:47.I'd be coming, as well, but the point is the government has
:29:48. > :29:50.a responsibility to all others to properly manage immigration
:29:51. > :29:53.and Mrs May has totally let us down. Khalid Mahmood doesn't
:29:54. > :29:55.the Labour Party also have a responsibility,
:29:56. > :29:57.bearing in mind it was when you were in office,
:29:58. > :30:00.it was an Labour's watch that the general perception
:30:01. > :30:02.is that the government, frankly, That's why people feel so strongly
:30:03. > :30:06.about it in the Black Country and Stoke and other parts
:30:07. > :30:10.of the West Midlands. No, I think, first of all,
:30:11. > :30:12.I think the Tory promise, again, rehashed for the same reason
:30:13. > :30:15.into the tens of thousands rather than hundreds of thousands,
:30:16. > :30:17.not being able to achieve If you take it down to zero
:30:18. > :30:24.immigration, which is what Bill is also talking about it is the cost
:30:25. > :30:27.on the economy that incurs and that's over
:30:28. > :30:30.?6 billion worth of cost. We are already pushing our
:30:31. > :30:33.pensioners date later and later. The pensioners retireable
:30:34. > :30:35.dates and that's going Bill talks about, in terms of young
:30:36. > :30:40.people, that we haven't got our vocational education
:30:41. > :30:42.system done properly. If we'd properly resourced it,
:30:43. > :30:45.if we'd properly worked it, we would have young people
:30:46. > :30:47.from within the industry, like I did, when I left
:30:48. > :30:50.school, I got on a city I went through that system
:30:51. > :30:54.and I was able to get a job. Some of the things that we call
:30:55. > :30:57.apprenticeships these days So, I think what we need
:30:58. > :31:02.to do is allow proper training for our people,
:31:03. > :31:05.allow the right people to come in, through the points-based system,
:31:06. > :31:07.and I agree with that, through a points-based system,
:31:08. > :31:10.so as people can contribute to the Exchequer in the taxes
:31:11. > :31:12.and the jobs they do, value add to our country and to be
:31:13. > :31:16.able to deliver that. Ellie Chowns, there is a balance,
:31:17. > :31:19.surely, that has to be Especially, bearing in mind rural
:31:20. > :31:26.areas like Hereford where, obviously, migrant workers
:31:27. > :31:28.and so on are very much So, how do you find the balance
:31:29. > :31:32.between dealing with the concerns that Bill has been talking
:31:33. > :31:35.about and making sure Migrant labour is really
:31:36. > :31:39.important to the economy of Herefordshire and,
:31:40. > :31:41.indeed, to our economy as a whole. Migrants contribute much more
:31:42. > :31:46.than they take out in terms of what they put in to the tax take
:31:47. > :31:50.and what they take out in terms So, I think, people are barking up
:31:51. > :31:55.the wrong tree if they're saying The population of this country has
:31:56. > :32:00.increased by about 0.8% over The problem is how
:32:01. > :32:06.that is discharged. So the problem is inequality,
:32:07. > :32:13.not immigration. Well, actually, I agree
:32:14. > :32:19.with quite a lot of that. I think the statistics
:32:20. > :32:21.show very clearly... A lot of agreement between you two
:32:22. > :32:24.and yet the Progressive Alliance I'd love the Green party to stand
:32:25. > :32:28.down for me in Cheltenham. We did stand down for Caroline Lucas
:32:29. > :32:35.in Brighton, actually. All the statistics show that
:32:36. > :32:40.immigration is a benefit to this country and I think there are scarce
:32:41. > :32:43.stories from parties like Ukip report the entire population
:32:44. > :32:46.of Romania was about to move to Britain a few years
:32:47. > :32:48.back, if you remember. Things that make the numbers look
:32:49. > :32:50.worse, like the inclusion of foreign students,
:32:51. > :32:52.who aren't really immigrants and actually we welcome
:32:53. > :32:54.foreign students... Actually, they help
:32:55. > :32:59.pay for the University of Gloucestershire and they helped
:33:00. > :33:02.to spread British influence and our connections with academia
:33:03. > :33:04.and business and people and communities all
:33:05. > :33:08.around the world. So, it's a very good thing to have
:33:09. > :33:11.foreign students in this country. But we also need to do some
:33:12. > :33:14.of the things that do tackle inequality and look at some
:33:15. > :33:17.of the ways in which some employers exploit both
:33:18. > :33:20.immigrant and local Labour. So, we need to look again
:33:21. > :33:22.at the National minimum wage, we need to invest in skills
:33:23. > :33:25.and education in this country and we need to stop things
:33:26. > :33:30.like the exploitation Sajid Javid, Theresa May
:33:31. > :33:33.having repeatedly failed as Home Secretary to get it down
:33:34. > :33:36.to the tens of thousands. Can people be blamed,
:33:37. > :33:43.really, if they are having to suspend their disbelief a little
:33:44. > :33:46.bit too long on this one? Well, look, first thing I'd say,
:33:47. > :33:49.I'm the proud son of immigrants and I'm the first to recognise that
:33:50. > :33:52.immigrants from all over the world have made a huge
:33:53. > :33:54.contribution to our country. Every walk of life,
:33:55. > :33:57.whether it is business, our culture, our politics and that's only
:33:58. > :33:59.to be welcomed. That can also go alongside saying
:34:00. > :34:02.that we need to have a sustainable We can't have that open-door
:34:03. > :34:06.policy that Labour had, So that we can control the numbers
:34:07. > :34:17.overall and control the pressures, for example, it might put
:34:18. > :34:21.on our public services. And that's why I think it's right
:34:22. > :34:24.to commit to 100,000 or lower. It will be made much easier once
:34:25. > :34:32.we leave the European Union. The man near the back
:34:33. > :34:34.in the blue T-shirt. This deal is about access
:34:35. > :34:44.to the single market. You can't talk about
:34:45. > :34:52.reducing immigration Because the Tory right side
:34:53. > :35:04.were going to have a referendum that was totally unnecessary and has
:35:05. > :35:07.divided the country. It's only the rebels have got bigger
:35:08. > :35:11.spheroidal than anybody else who are actually saying
:35:12. > :35:13.what people actually think. At least they're honest
:35:14. > :35:15.and sincere about it. Your argument is total
:35:16. > :35:20.and complete and utter nonsense. When you join a club,
:35:21. > :35:25.you don't go in there and say were going to change the rules
:35:26. > :35:27.on something because Anybody in the audience who feels
:35:28. > :35:37.that immigration is running to hide? I think the problem is,
:35:38. > :35:41.if you look at the last 20 years, we've imported 140,000
:35:42. > :35:42.nurses from abroad. In that same time, the government
:35:43. > :35:45.has refused to educate 140,000 young people with the skills to do nursing
:35:46. > :35:48.in this country because it is cheaper to import a Filipino nurse
:35:49. > :35:52.for 6000 US dollars than pay ?72,000 We're not funding young people
:35:53. > :35:55.in this country and we're Jaguar-Land Rover importing
:35:56. > :36:03.engineers from abroad. Because we don't want to train
:36:04. > :36:09.them at university. We have the greatest university
:36:10. > :36:11.production of graduates ever at the lowest cost
:36:12. > :36:13.to the British taxpayer ever. Yet, were not producing the people
:36:14. > :36:16.that need to do the ?35,000 a year starting salary jobs that
:36:17. > :36:18.are available out there. We're leaving our schoolkids to come
:36:19. > :36:21.through the education system and then go and get a job serving
:36:22. > :36:24.beer in a bar, going cleaning And the amount of immigration
:36:25. > :36:30.in the NHS is indicative of our failure to invest
:36:31. > :36:32.in young people. None of the parties want
:36:33. > :36:36.to do anything about it. The Labour Party is bringing
:36:37. > :36:44.in bursaries for nurses so, that is for our own home-grown
:36:45. > :36:46.nurses. The Labour Party is
:36:47. > :36:50.committed to doing that. But you will bankrupt
:36:51. > :36:55.the country in the process. You want to do radical
:36:56. > :37:00.things, they want to put Labour has got a magic money tree,
:37:01. > :37:10.that is how they can afford it. We will move on now
:37:11. > :37:14.to our next question Will a coalition of chaos be
:37:15. > :37:25.preferable to the sort of strong and stable leadership
:37:26. > :37:26.that was demonstrated Ellie Chowns, I will come
:37:27. > :37:35.to you first because it seems to me that the Green Party
:37:36. > :37:40.has their own recipe for a coalition of chaos -
:37:41. > :37:43.you have two leaders! And they are both extremely
:37:44. > :37:46.effective, and probably much more effective than the single leaders
:37:47. > :37:49.of the other parties. The Greens have argued
:37:50. > :37:51.for a long time that we need a new approach to politics,
:37:52. > :38:02.less of a kind of confrontational playground politics and a more
:38:03. > :38:04.grown-up politics, where we talk to each other and seek consensus
:38:05. > :38:08.and compromise and try to work out the best way for the country
:38:09. > :38:11.together, rather than try to grab onto power as has happened
:38:12. > :38:13.in the last election. We got a Conservative government
:38:14. > :38:16.elected on the votes of just 24% of the adults in the country
:38:17. > :38:19.and they led us to the referendum, this other election two years later,
:38:20. > :38:22.not strong and stable. So we argue for electoral reform,
:38:23. > :38:27.we need a system where the voice of all is heard in this country,
:38:28. > :38:30.so that we can play a part in shaping
:38:31. > :38:32.the politics that we want. We argue for an extension
:38:33. > :38:37.of the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, they
:38:38. > :38:39.should get the vote too. When I think of this
:38:40. > :38:42.question, I think we need I will surprise you, I think,
:38:43. > :38:46.by saying that actually I watched him last night,
:38:47. > :38:48.I thought he was likeable, sincere, I thought he came
:38:49. > :38:51.across as a man of great principle Because I also thought
:38:52. > :38:55.that he was a man who frankly is so hooked up on his doctrine
:38:56. > :39:03.of Marxism that I believe that he will, if he gets the chance
:39:04. > :39:08.to become Prime Minister, I think his Shadow Chancellor
:39:09. > :39:16.is another man who, frankly, you know, if they are walking down
:39:17. > :39:26.the street with their Trotsky hats on and waving the red flag,
:39:27. > :39:31.would not out of place. We have Labour Party MPs are trying
:39:32. > :39:37.to make it look like it is all OK and reasonable but we all more that
:39:38. > :39:40.for the past few months they have been trying to get rid of these guys
:39:41. > :39:44.but they cannot because of Momentum. And what we have to demand,
:39:45. > :39:47.genuinely I would like to enjoy his company and set and have a chat
:39:48. > :39:50.with them, but I would not like to see him in charge
:39:51. > :39:53.of anything, let alone this country, A warm endorsement of your leader
:39:54. > :39:57.from Ukip, Khalid Mahmood! How is, in your experience,
:39:58. > :39:59.Jeremy Corbyn going down The problem is that what Bill
:40:00. > :40:02.is saying is, you know, you like the guy, look
:40:03. > :40:05.at what he has done, His principles are about democratic
:40:06. > :40:12.socialism, he has put that up. He is not a so-called strong,
:40:13. > :40:15.tough leader, what he is is a leader who is a caring leader,
:40:16. > :40:17.who listens to people and in terms of the iceberg,
:40:18. > :40:20.the reason why the Titanic broke up was because it was too bloody
:40:21. > :40:23.brittle and that is a problem that will happen with Theresa May,
:40:24. > :40:26.she is much too brittle, does not understand the issues
:40:27. > :40:37.like someone like Jeremy Corbyn who collects the information
:40:38. > :40:39.and goes through those Sajid Javid, under the leadership
:40:40. > :40:44.of Theresa May we are If Jeremy Corbyn enters Number Ten
:40:45. > :40:47.after this election, we will have him in charge
:40:48. > :40:50.of our Brexit negotiations, John McDonnell in charge
:40:51. > :40:52.of our economic policy and Diane Abbott in charge
:40:53. > :40:54.of our national security. Can you imagine the disaster
:40:55. > :40:56.that would be unleashed He would only be able to govern
:40:57. > :41:04.through a coalition and today he has offered to have discussions
:41:05. > :41:06.with the SNP on that, imagine The day after the election,
:41:07. > :41:12.only one of two people can be standing outside Downing Street,
:41:13. > :41:14.it is either Theresa May leading that government in the national
:41:15. > :41:17.interest or Jeremy Corbyn I would rather have Jeremy Corbyn
:41:18. > :41:23.than a bloody difficult woman The Lib Dems have made clear
:41:24. > :41:34.we will not go into coalition with either the Labour Party
:41:35. > :41:37.or the Conservative Party this time. This might be the experience
:41:38. > :41:39.of the last seven years. In 2010, we went into
:41:40. > :41:44.coalition because actually, and I am afraid to say,
:41:45. > :41:47.we got vilified by the Green Party amongst others for daring
:41:48. > :41:55.to go into coalition. We thought that was the grown-up
:41:56. > :41:57.and responsible thing to do Did not do you much good
:41:58. > :42:02.in the West Midlands, you got no MPs We got quite a few environmental
:42:03. > :42:05.and social policies passed the Conservatives
:42:06. > :42:08.while we were there, including taking two or 3 million
:42:09. > :42:11.people out of tax and the lower paid, including environment policies
:42:12. > :42:13.that have been rolled back Although we got a bit
:42:14. > :42:20.of a kicking as everybody knows, I still think that was the right
:42:21. > :42:23.thing to do and it was The trouble is, in the meantime
:42:24. > :42:27.the Tory Party has moved to the point where it is virtually
:42:28. > :42:29.indistinguishable from Ukip. Brief final word, are we a coalition
:42:30. > :42:37.of chaos or strong and stable? I think that the coalition is much
:42:38. > :42:44.more appealing and I have to tell you that Jeremy Corbyn,
:42:45. > :42:51.I have never seen a politician bullied as much and he has come
:42:52. > :42:56.through as strong as ever. Well, there we are, I know
:42:57. > :43:04.lots of you want to get in but I am afraid the clock is the ultimate
:43:05. > :43:08.arbiter on these occasions. Really is where we must
:43:09. > :43:11.end our debate for this evening. Thank you to our panellists
:43:12. > :43:13.for answering the questions and a particular thank
:43:14. > :43:15.you to everyone here in our audience here tonight
:43:16. > :43:29.at the Birmingham Ormiston Academy. I will be back with the latest
:43:30. > :43:32.from the general election The Sunday Politics is in its usual
:43:33. > :43:36.slot at 11 o'clock on Sunday From all of us here
:43:37. > :44:03.tonight, good night. Hear the arguments
:44:04. > :44:07.from the politicians themselves.