:00:00. > :00:08.What will next week's general election mean for us in the West?
:00:09. > :00:12.Which issues are going to impact most on our lives?
:00:13. > :00:19.Bristol's Bottle Yard Studios are normally home to some
:00:20. > :00:26.Poldark and Sherlock to name just two.
:00:27. > :00:29.But tonight's special performance is a panel
:00:30. > :00:32.of would-be West Country MPs, fighting for every vote, quizzed
:00:33. > :00:39.For me, it's Brexit is the biggest issue.
:00:40. > :00:51.Conservative Jacob Rees-Mogg, Tessa Munt for the Liberal Democrats,
:00:52. > :00:53.Daniel Woolf from Ukip and from the Greens,
:00:54. > :01:15.Welcome to Election 2017, a BBC Points West special debate.
:01:16. > :01:38.Welcome, good evening, from the Bottle Yard Studios,
:01:39. > :01:41.this is the place where they used to make all that
:01:42. > :01:47.The election polls are getting interesting, the gap
:01:48. > :01:57.And you can join us in our debate tonight.
:01:58. > :02:00.We are on Twitter, our hashtag is #GE17west.
:02:01. > :02:03.There is also special coverage on the BBC website.
:02:04. > :02:06.If you go to the BBC News pages and then
:02:07. > :02:09.follow the local links, you will find us.
:02:10. > :02:17.Our first question tonight comes from a young man, Rhys Coombes.
:02:18. > :02:22.As a young person, I want to be confident that I'm growing up
:02:23. > :02:25.How will politicians like yourselves ensure that this
:02:26. > :02:32.In the light, of course, of what's been happening in Manchester,
:02:33. > :02:37.those scenes which have shaken and left us heartbroken,
:02:38. > :02:40.Sarah Church, how can you ensure that that young man's generation
:02:41. > :02:49.Counter-terrorism is a layered approach, and I think what Labour
:02:50. > :02:52.are offering in terms of putting money into security will be
:02:53. > :02:58.At the moment, Government security services do an excellent job,
:02:59. > :03:01.but what they have lost out on is a layer of support,
:03:02. > :03:11.and that is in the form of community policing.
:03:12. > :03:13.We are promising 10,000 more community police who will work
:03:14. > :03:16.with local communities, for example as part of the Prevent
:03:17. > :03:18.strategy, although that in itself does need to be looked
:03:19. > :03:21.at and rewritten in my view, that they will work with Government
:03:22. > :03:24.agencies, and it's that combined approach to make sure that we're
:03:25. > :03:31.We also will be putting 500 more border guards to make sure that
:03:32. > :03:34.when we do conduct security checks at our borders, we are fully
:03:35. > :03:36.resourced to make sure that our security is as good
:03:37. > :03:44.Sarah Church, you're a retired Army major, is that right?
:03:45. > :03:47.And you're married to a soldier who was injured in Afghanistan.
:03:48. > :03:50.Do you think Jeremy Corbyn's remarks that our involvement in other
:03:51. > :03:55.people's countries has made us less safe?
:03:56. > :03:58.I think that actually the history of our involvement in
:03:59. > :04:01.the Middle East and in Central Asia goes further back than this decade.
:04:02. > :04:03.In fact, it's over a hundred years old.
:04:04. > :04:07.When you serve in those countries, you hear from people
:04:08. > :04:19.about their view of the British that goes back over a long time.
:04:20. > :04:21.So I think that the causes for fundamentalist views
:04:22. > :04:23.are many and complex, there is the phenomenon of Wahhabism
:04:24. > :04:26.which is something that is quite separate to their views
:04:27. > :04:29.Is Mr Corbyn right that we've made it worse?
:04:30. > :04:32.So I do think that everything we do when we involve ourselves abroad
:04:33. > :04:34.will have a reflection on us domestically.
:04:35. > :04:39.This is not a party political matter.
:04:40. > :04:42.The first duty of all and every Government is the security
:04:43. > :04:44.and safety of the nation, and this is both obviously
:04:45. > :04:47.anti-terrorism, but it is the Armed Forces and our general
:04:48. > :04:56.I think securing our borders is going to be very important.
:04:57. > :04:59.One of the advantages of Brexit is that we will have an opportunity
:05:00. > :05:01.to maintain our own borders without them being a European
:05:02. > :05:06.We need to look at extremism, domestically within this country,
:05:07. > :05:13.and work on the Event strategy to try and find out where extremism
:05:14. > :05:15.is rising and to try and stop it at source,
:05:16. > :05:20.And that's not easy to do, but it's got to be part of the strategy.
:05:21. > :05:22.There is intelligence, funding for intelligent
:05:23. > :05:28.There is the activity of all of us but reporting suspicious activities.
:05:29. > :05:31.And as you all did when you came in today, accepting the intrusion
:05:32. > :05:38.Jacob, we've seen armed officers over this bank
:05:39. > :05:41.holiday in Gloucester, Swindon, Bristol and beyond.
:05:42. > :05:44.Do you accept what Mr Corbyn said, in which the Foreign Secretary
:05:45. > :05:46.appeared to say as well, that actually our involvement
:05:47. > :05:52.in other people's countries has made things worse, particularly Iraq?
:05:53. > :05:55.If you look at 9/11, that came before we went into Iraq
:05:56. > :05:57.in the second Iraq war, and it was a response
:05:58. > :06:08.I think there are issues with our relationship with the Saudis,
:06:09. > :06:11.because a lot of the funding for some of the terrorists
:06:12. > :06:20.I think the second Iraq war was a mistake, but I don't think
:06:21. > :06:22.that justifies terrorism or even begins to.
:06:23. > :06:24.I don't think the Sykes-Pico line is a justification for terrorism,
:06:25. > :06:30.I think these are lunatic people who believe in an evil ideology,
:06:31. > :06:45.and we have to search them out, we have to arrest them
:06:46. > :06:47.and prosecute them, we have to keep our borders secure,
:06:48. > :06:50.and we have to fight them at every step of the way.
:06:51. > :06:53.OK, I'm going to ask some of the audience to come in on this.
:06:54. > :06:55.But before I do, James Francis, you also submitted
:06:56. > :07:00.What point did you want to make, James?
:07:01. > :07:03.Could instances like the Manchester bombing and the introduction of more
:07:04. > :07:05.Armed Forces on the streets across the country, including
:07:06. > :07:08.the West, have been avoided if police numbers hadn't been cut?
:07:09. > :07:12.I don't think it could have been stopped, but I think the level
:07:13. > :07:26.Does anyone in the audience want to speak on this,
:07:27. > :07:28.or should we hear more from our guests first?
:07:29. > :07:31.Let's go to Molly Scott Cato, and then we will come
:07:32. > :07:35.I think we need to deal with this in a number of different ways.
:07:36. > :07:38.It's a good question, Rhys, and I would like to think that
:07:39. > :07:41.you could live in a country where you feel safe and secure,
:07:42. > :07:44.so I think it is important that we fund the police properly.
:07:45. > :07:46.I think it's also important that we have surveillance.
:07:47. > :07:49.But we don't want to become the sort of society where we are so heavily
:07:50. > :07:52.surveilled that we feel we are losing our basic freedoms,
:07:53. > :07:54.and if we did move towards being that sort of society,
:07:55. > :07:56.in fact we would have done the terrorists'
:07:57. > :07:58.work for them, I think, because they are deliberately
:07:59. > :08:00.trying to undermine some of our basic freedoms.
:08:01. > :08:03.And to come to the comments by Jeremy Corbyn, I think
:08:04. > :08:06.we absolutely have to condemn this act, and it is obviously
:08:07. > :08:08.the act of an individual, for which they are responsible,
:08:09. > :08:10.and all such violent acts should be condemned.
:08:11. > :08:13.But I think we also need to think about our foreign policy,
:08:14. > :08:15.and the way our foreign policy has affected the way certain
:08:16. > :08:17.communities and individuals in this country feel.
:08:18. > :08:21.Obviously the Green party strongly opposed the Iraq war,
:08:22. > :08:24.but there was also the intervention in Syria, and interesting only 13
:08:25. > :08:28.Has there been any conflict that the Greens have been in favour of?
:08:29. > :08:34.The Green party didn't exist then, but clearly we would
:08:35. > :08:38.But what I'm talking about here is the sort of freelance
:08:39. > :08:40.interventions in the Middle East where there is no clear plan,
:08:41. > :08:43.no clear strategy for what might be achieved, and in the case
:08:44. > :08:45.of the Syrian adventure, there were only 13 MPs
:08:46. > :08:49.One was Caroline Lucas and another was Jeremy Corbyn.
:08:50. > :08:54.To address some of the points that have been raised so far.
:08:55. > :08:58.I think sovereignty will allow us, and leaving the EU will give us
:08:59. > :08:59.the sovereignty we need to protect our borders
:09:00. > :09:04.And I think in response to some of these attacks,
:09:05. > :09:09.It's not enough to keep, I guess, turning the other cheek, as it were.
:09:10. > :09:11.Your leader's been talking about the death penalty.
:09:12. > :09:14.A lot of people are beginning to come around and rethink
:09:15. > :09:17.whether or not the death penalty is right for this country.
:09:18. > :09:20.Now, it would be interesting to have a referendum on it,
:09:21. > :09:23.and based in light of the view that we have DNA evidence
:09:24. > :09:25.which can be scrutinised, we have CCTV evidence and so on,
:09:26. > :09:28.so there may well be a case in certain circumstances
:09:29. > :09:30.if it is absolutely unequivocally obvious that this person is guilty,
:09:31. > :09:33.and that people, a separate set of justices that are independent
:09:34. > :09:40.of politics agree, then there may be a case for it.
:09:41. > :09:44.But I think it's an issue that needs to be put to the people,
:09:45. > :09:46.because times have changed, and we need to not just
:09:47. > :09:49.keep calm and carry on, but we also need to get tough,
:09:50. > :09:53.Tessa Munt, how do you propose to keep Rhys's generation safe,
:09:54. > :09:56.Well, I'm not sure that's within my grasp entirely,
:09:57. > :09:58.but we need to work together, don't we?
:09:59. > :10:01.And certainly I think some of the aspects of increasing
:10:02. > :10:04.the amount of money we spend on community policing.
:10:05. > :10:07.Police need to understand who is living in their local area,
:10:08. > :10:10.and we've got officers who don't have the capacity to do that.
:10:11. > :10:13.I think as you'll be aware we certainly feel
:10:14. > :10:15.that there are issues about our borders.
:10:16. > :10:19.It is very hard to keep our borders tight.
:10:20. > :10:22.We are going to have a problem in Ireland in particular.
:10:23. > :10:25.Goodness knows how on earth we police that border.
:10:26. > :10:29.So we actually all of us need to be very alert and very aware,
:10:30. > :10:32.and I'm actually concerned also about the reduction in the number
:10:33. > :10:36.You know, the defence spending budget is going to become more
:10:37. > :10:45.We are down to a situation where we are not keeping up
:10:46. > :10:48.with our Nato defence spending, we are ?380 million short of that,
:10:49. > :10:51.and yet we are still in a position where the number of troops
:10:52. > :10:57.So I think it's good for the security services right
:10:58. > :11:03.But we need to remember also and in the light
:11:04. > :11:06.But we need to remember also and in the light of what's
:11:07. > :11:08.happened in the last week, we've had a terrible,
:11:09. > :11:11.terrible problem in our NHS, and we've also had other examples
:11:12. > :11:14.OK, but I'm talking about heaping people safe.
:11:15. > :11:16.I think the question was talking about...
:11:17. > :11:19.But actually, if your data isn't safe in the NHS, or anything else,
:11:20. > :11:22.we are very dependent on modern technology, and all of that sort
:11:23. > :11:27.Right, does that answer your question, at least
:11:28. > :11:37.I think a lot of the points made do, but I think one thing I would point
:11:38. > :11:40.out is that to suggest as the Green party have that increasing
:11:41. > :11:42.security let the terrorists win, I did accept that.
:11:43. > :11:45.I think the terrorists' aim is to kill, to destroy
:11:46. > :11:48.If we have to increase security to stop them,
:11:49. > :11:51.and that's what it takes, I think we should do that,
:11:52. > :11:54.because I think the terrorists don't want, they don't really care how
:11:55. > :11:57.much CCTV is on our streets, they care how many of us are living
:11:58. > :12:06.One point therefore the gentleman with the spectacles.
:12:07. > :12:08.I'm slightly irritated by that, really, because I see a reaction,
:12:09. > :12:10.it's a reactive thing that we are being sold,
:12:11. > :12:19.It's not leadership, and leadership is about being counterintuitive.
:12:20. > :12:22.It is about not responding to fear, it's about standing up
:12:23. > :12:25.for what we are is a country, what we the people are,
:12:26. > :12:29.We are not something that is going to be battered around
:12:30. > :12:33.We are not somebody that needs to escalate like we did before
:12:34. > :12:36.We need to stand up and take a counterintuitive position,
:12:37. > :12:39.and I'm not seeing this from this Government at all or any
:12:40. > :12:55.I am going to come to the audience a lot more as the programme goes on.
:12:56. > :13:02.We are spending around ?120 billion on the NHS this year,
:13:03. > :13:14.Is this sacred cow worth saving in its existing form?
:13:15. > :13:26.I don't think it's worth saving in its existing form.
:13:27. > :13:29.I think the fundamental principle of the NHS,
:13:30. > :13:32.that treatment should be free at the point of use,
:13:33. > :13:36.But the structures as to how you provide that are ones that
:13:37. > :13:39.inevitably need to change and be updated to ensure that the money
:13:40. > :13:47.The Conservatives have committed to a further ?8 billion in real
:13:48. > :13:49.terms over the next parliament, following the 10 billion
:13:50. > :13:51.that they committed to in the previous parliament.
:13:52. > :13:53.So the money is continuing to be put in.
:13:54. > :14:02.But I think the fundamental premise of the question is right.
:14:03. > :14:05.There are over the next decade going to be two million more
:14:06. > :14:08.The strains on all our social and health services
:14:09. > :14:15.Would you like to see a private system, I guess that's...
:14:16. > :14:17.That principle is absolutely fundamental, that the service should
:14:18. > :14:32.But should we do more things like the hospital in my constituency
:14:33. > :14:35., in Peasedown St John, that provides very good
:14:36. > :14:37.support to the health service but are themselves private?
:14:38. > :14:43.Privatisation would be taken away the fundamental principle of free
:14:44. > :14:48.Privatisation means selling a company into the private sector.
:14:49. > :14:50.All health services, and the National Health Service
:14:51. > :14:51.throughout its history, has bought in private
:14:52. > :14:58.That has happened since it was founded, and that
:14:59. > :15:02.Indeed, the greatest advance in buying in private services came
:15:03. > :15:04.under the Government led by Tony Blair.
:15:05. > :15:14.First of all, just to correct a few points, that ?10 billion isn't
:15:15. > :15:19.anywhere near what is going to be spent on the NHS by
:15:20. > :15:20.the Conservatives, and that ?8 billion that's promised
:15:21. > :15:25.So is it worth saving in its existing form?
:15:26. > :15:28.I do believe that we need to make changes.
:15:29. > :15:30.I think the integration of the National Health Service
:15:31. > :15:32.with the National Care Service is long overdue, and if we're
:15:33. > :15:35.going to see two million more elderly people,
:15:36. > :15:37.who happily are living longer due to medical advance,
:15:38. > :15:41.we need to take care of them properly with an integrated service.
:15:42. > :15:46.So I believe it is worth saving for that reason also.
:15:47. > :15:48.But when it comes to parcelling out and commissioning,
:15:49. > :15:51.if we're not using the word privatisation, although
:15:52. > :15:55.commissioning services is privatisation, of course.
:15:56. > :15:58.What we're doing is we're allowing private providers to become the sole
:15:59. > :16:00.providers of certain services that we can no longer
:16:01. > :16:02.provide within the NHS, and they then can charge
:16:03. > :16:07.So I think we need to bring everything back into public hands,
:16:08. > :16:10.make sure that the public sector is in control of the
:16:11. > :16:27.You're committed, of course, to the National Health Service?
:16:28. > :16:28.Absolutely, and I think it's the most amazing
:16:29. > :16:31.service in the world, but actually, when you look
:16:32. > :16:32.at what's happening, our National Health Service
:16:33. > :16:37.There are a number of things that have actually lead to that.
:16:38. > :16:40.My lot have decided the best thing we can do is put
:16:41. > :16:42.a penny on income tax, purely for the NHS.
:16:43. > :16:44.But that should be ringfenced because otherwise this kind
:16:45. > :16:48.I've never understood why the NHS and adult social care
:16:49. > :16:50.are two separate services, that seems completely lunatic.
:16:51. > :16:52.We've got people who're working in the NHS,
:16:53. > :16:55.many of whom come from the EU, we need to protect their
:16:56. > :17:02.We also need to make sure that that penny...
:17:03. > :17:05.Sorry, the 1% pay freeze, just get shot of that.
:17:06. > :17:09.But who would pay for all this, Tessa?
:17:10. > :17:12.Well, we've worked out exactly how you might pay for that, and we've
:17:13. > :17:15.This penny on tax, how much would that raise?
:17:16. > :17:18.6.7 billion, which goes some way to actually making sure...
:17:19. > :17:20.But the Conservatives are offering to put in 8 billion.
:17:21. > :17:24.We've heard it before, and it's not going to go anywhere.
:17:25. > :17:27.We delivered on it when we were in coalition with the Lib Dems!
:17:28. > :17:30.But the other thing, the other thing is, actually,
:17:31. > :17:32.the Conservatives have actually cut the bursaries to NHS students.
:17:33. > :17:37.We've got a crisis in GPs, crisis in nursing.
:17:38. > :17:40.Why on earth would you say, you can't have a bursary
:17:41. > :17:45.Let's pause there a second and let Jacob answer.
:17:46. > :17:47.On the bursaries point, taking away the bursaries has
:17:48. > :17:49.meant that more nurses are going into training
:17:50. > :18:01.Since 2010, there have already been 11,500 more nurses
:18:02. > :18:04.in the NHS by the coalition, of which Tessa was a notable part,
:18:05. > :18:09.and the Conservatives, and that has continued.
:18:10. > :18:12.If you're going to train more, you need more going into training,
:18:13. > :18:14.and bursaries has limited the funding that was
:18:15. > :18:20.You have to have an equal system where everybody can get into it.
:18:21. > :18:22.You don't just have the rich becoming our medics.
:18:23. > :18:34.If you look at student loans, it has seen take up going all the way
:18:35. > :18:40.through the social categories, that everybody is able to get
:18:41. > :18:44.a loan, and they only pay it back when they're earning over ?21,000.
:18:45. > :18:47.And that has encouraged more people to go into higher education,
:18:48. > :18:49.and this will apply to nursing as well.
:18:50. > :18:52.Was it not the coalition that completely reneged on tuition fees?
:18:53. > :18:54.I don't want to talk about tuition fees too
:18:55. > :18:57.much, but the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Jacob,
:18:58. > :18:59.says Conservative plans for NHS spending look very tight indeed
:19:00. > :19:07.The Institute for Fiscal Studies is not the oracle of all information.
:19:08. > :19:17.It said Brexit would be a catastrophe, which it wasn't.
:19:18. > :19:21.They're an organisation that comes out with its views,
:19:22. > :19:23.but the Conservatives are delivering exactly the amount Simon Stephens,
:19:24. > :19:26.the head of the NHS, has asked for to make sure
:19:27. > :19:31.the service continued to be delivered.
:19:32. > :19:33.And the lady is right, who asked the question.
:19:34. > :19:40.One second, the lady over there in the glasses has
:19:41. > :19:50.I'm extremely concerned that the Conservatives are planning
:19:51. > :19:52.to cut 66 A departments and maternity units.
:19:53. > :20:01.In other words, people who are in urgent need of medical
:20:02. > :20:04.care are going to find it impossible to get in some circumstances.
:20:05. > :20:06.I don't think that shows any regard for public safety.
:20:07. > :20:12.The lady here is correct, and I agree with Tessa, you know,
:20:13. > :20:15.We're seeing people on trolleys, in corridors.
:20:16. > :20:17.We're seeing reception areas being turned into reception
:20:18. > :20:19.centres for patients coming in because we simply
:20:20. > :20:23.And I think you can tell from the reception in this room
:20:24. > :20:26.how popular the NHS is, it's absolutely not a sacred cow.
:20:27. > :20:29.It's a precious jewel that we all value because we know
:20:30. > :20:31.when we're sick it will be there for us.
:20:32. > :20:35.And I was on a march in Bristol on Saturday to save our NHS,
:20:36. > :20:37.and as we marched down the Gloucester Road,
:20:38. > :20:42.And is there any limit to the amount of money that
:20:43. > :20:46.Well, I think we should be very careful about the services
:20:47. > :20:49.that we choose to have through the NHS, but
:20:50. > :20:51.the most important thing at the moment is that we are...
:20:52. > :20:55.You keep asking me these difficult questions and to pin
:20:56. > :20:59.What I'm trying to say is that at the moment...
:21:00. > :21:07.24% of the contracts in the NHS at the moment are going out
:21:08. > :21:17.The three main Westminster parties are privatising by stealth and,
:21:18. > :21:20.to my mind, this actually flies in the face of democracy,
:21:21. > :21:23.that you don't want privatisation, and at the same time,
:21:24. > :21:26.they are carrying on and doing it, and I can guarantee
:21:27. > :21:28.to you the Green Party would never do that.
:21:29. > :21:30.We pledge to have a fully public NHS.
:21:31. > :21:37.If I may, I will just take the opportunity to remind
:21:38. > :21:40.the audience both here and around the country that under the last
:21:41. > :21:43.Labour Government there were some 50,000 excess deaths that weren't
:21:44. > :21:44.necessary because of the cuts and whatnot.
:21:45. > :21:47.Also under that same period, there were ?190 million spent
:21:48. > :21:50.on managers in the NHS, and by 2010 that went up some
:21:51. > :21:56.So it's not just about spending the money.
:21:57. > :21:59.You've got to get the money on the front lines, you've got to
:22:00. > :22:03.When the NHS computer systems crashed, people were saying
:22:04. > :22:06.that there aren't enough managers, we haven't got enough IT people.
:22:07. > :22:09.Well, if you've got too many chiefs and not enough Indians,
:22:10. > :22:11.you've got a major problem, and when I see the fact
:22:12. > :22:14.and hear the fact that there are lots of managers
:22:15. > :22:16.and lots of people in the higher executive that are being paid
:22:17. > :22:20.bonuses, and yet there are people who are going in to work in the NHS,
:22:21. > :22:22.there are some departments which are run purely on goodwill.
:22:23. > :22:25.I just want to hear a little bit from the audience.
:22:26. > :22:29.Yes, the lady right in front of me there, hello.
:22:30. > :22:33.I have a daughter already who is a nurse at the RUH,
:22:34. > :22:36.and a daughter who will begin her training at UE in September.
:22:37. > :22:39.My first daughter was able to take advantage of the NHS bursary,
:22:40. > :22:49.To pay off any form of living expenses while she's there,
:22:50. > :22:57.she'll have to work, with three children,
:22:58. > :23:02.work on top of doing her studies, on top of her practice in the wards.
:23:03. > :23:04.So can you imagine my daughter will probably have to have
:23:05. > :23:08.about a 60 to 75 hour week, and still do her things.
:23:09. > :23:10.Why is it you've brought in bursaries for nurses?
:23:11. > :23:16.We have touched on that, thank you for your point.
:23:17. > :23:18.One last one, the lady there with the striped jumper.
:23:19. > :23:25.It worries me to hear lots of talk about figures,
:23:26. > :23:27.lots of shilly-shallying about whether things
:23:28. > :23:31.are being privatised in the health service or not.
:23:32. > :23:35.They clearly have been outsourced to the private sector,
:23:36. > :23:39.lots of services, for many years, and it's a question
:23:40. > :23:50.People's priority, I feel sure, in this country,
:23:51. > :23:53.is to have a decent health service, which is what we've got in terms
:23:54. > :23:58.But when we can spend billions and billions of pounds
:23:59. > :24:03.not only on Trident, for example, but on bailing
:24:04. > :24:08.out banks and on giving corporation tax to the wealthy,
:24:09. > :24:11.who can afford to pay more, I think it is shameful of this
:24:12. > :24:23...to be carrying on the way they are.
:24:24. > :24:29.Just to remind you, you are watching an election special
:24:30. > :24:33.Welcome if you have just joined us, we are at the Bottle
:24:34. > :24:36.A reminder that you can follow us on Twitter,
:24:37. > :24:41.There is also special coverage online, if you go
:24:42. > :24:47.to the local live pages, you will find us.
:24:48. > :24:50.So if you're frustrated at not being able to have your say here,
:24:51. > :24:53.Let's take another question, if we could.
:24:54. > :25:01.Will the West of England suffer without EU funding?
:25:02. > :25:11.And I think the most important thing is for people to have understood,
:25:12. > :25:14.it would have been nice if people had understood exactly how
:25:15. > :25:16.much EU funding comes into the South West,
:25:17. > :25:25.It comes in through tourism, it comes in through farming,
:25:26. > :25:30.there are all sorts of other support programmes.
:25:31. > :25:32.And I really, I am dismayed that there's no real plan
:25:33. > :25:38.My area is very dependent on farming, and when I look
:25:39. > :25:43.at my particular patch, which I represented in 2010-2015,
:25:44. > :25:46.that was nearly ?2 million coming into my area rather than the amount
:25:47. > :25:56.Tessa, why then, did the majority of farmers vote to leave?
:25:57. > :26:01.I'll tell you exactly why, because they trust the Government
:26:02. > :26:04.to make sure that that subsidy, if it's tailed off,
:26:05. > :26:07.and a lot of them are very clear about the fact that they don't
:26:08. > :26:10.want to have subsidies, but they don't expect it to go off
:26:11. > :26:13.a cliff edge in 2019, and the other part of that
:26:14. > :26:15.contract with the Government, is that the Government will make
:26:16. > :26:19.sure they get a fair price for their products.
:26:20. > :26:22.And that doesn't happen, and we have, in the Conservatives,
:26:23. > :26:24.a Government that is not in the slightest bit interested
:26:25. > :26:27.in protecting what they see as just a single percentage,
:26:28. > :26:31.Let me go to Labour, and Sarah Church.
:26:32. > :26:35.Yes, so I represent a slightly more urban constituency in South Swindon.
:26:36. > :26:44.Well, I am standing for them, I do hope to, yes.
:26:45. > :26:47.So EU funding for us is something I'm looking at to do
:26:48. > :26:50.with technical innovation, entrepreneurialism, for example
:26:51. > :26:53.the structural investment fund that small business was able to draw on.
:26:54. > :26:58.I think it's very important that we go into Brexit
:26:59. > :27:00.with a constructive and collaborative attitude
:27:01. > :27:09.and friends to make sure that when we do leave,
:27:10. > :27:14.off the cliff edge that I think is promised by Theresa May with her,
:27:15. > :27:17.but if attitude, so that those people in Swindon, the 10,000 jobs
:27:18. > :27:20.that already exist that rely on some form or other of access
:27:21. > :27:21.to the single market and the customs union,
:27:22. > :27:23.that those new entrepreneurs and technical innovators
:27:24. > :27:26.who are going to do things I can't even imagine yet have got
:27:27. > :27:28.the vestment they need to become the business people
:27:29. > :27:34.And do you back the idea from Labour that you wouldn't walk
:27:35. > :27:44.Yeah, it seems a bit nonsensical really to give this club
:27:45. > :27:48.that we are trying to get out of a load of money only for them
:27:49. > :27:52.to tell us and give it as back and tell us how to spend it.
:27:53. > :27:54.Surely we should just retain that money and then have the sovereignty
:27:55. > :27:57.to make the decision ourselves on where we put that money?
:27:58. > :28:04.And do we expect, I hate to mention it, but the ?350 million a week...
:28:05. > :28:12.When can we expect to see that coming our way?
:28:13. > :28:15.I can tell you, that figure, I was disgusted with the way
:28:16. > :28:18.the campaign was fought on both sides, actually, and as a campaigner
:28:19. > :28:21.on the local doorstep, when we got 59% in Gloucester,
:28:22. > :28:25.that wasn't because we were campaigning the way
:28:26. > :28:27.the national people were, we were grass-roots cross-party
:28:28. > :28:35.It was on the bus, and I'm sure, but what we need to do is first
:28:36. > :28:38.of all secure the means to get the money back, and after
:28:39. > :28:41.that we can decide on how best to spend it for our people
:28:42. > :28:43.and our citizens without other people who are unelected
:28:44. > :28:46.trying to impose on us how we do that.
:28:47. > :28:49.Get your points ready, because I am going to come
:28:50. > :28:52.to the audience very soon for some brief points, if you don't mind.
:28:53. > :29:03.Molly Scott Cato, are we going to suffer if we lose EU funding?
:29:04. > :29:11.Well, I'm the member of Parliament for the whole of the South West,
:29:12. > :29:15.I represent all of you in the European Parliament.
:29:16. > :29:18.I fought very hard against Brexit because I think for a number
:29:19. > :29:21.of reasons it is going to be very damaging for the South West,
:29:22. > :29:24.and the one you've identified in your question is one of them.
:29:25. > :29:26.As Tessa has already pointed out, farmers depend very heavily
:29:27. > :29:29.on the payments that have come from the common agricultural
:29:30. > :29:31.policy, and of course, in particular has been dependent,
:29:32. > :29:34.about ?400 million worth of funding, so what we have to ensure
:29:35. > :29:36.is that people like Jacob, who argued that we should
:29:37. > :29:38.leave the single market, that we should leave
:29:39. > :29:41.the European Union, ensure that all that money is made up.
:29:42. > :29:46.My job as MEP for the South West, and if I continue to be an MP,
:29:47. > :29:48.is to continue to hold them to account for that,
:29:49. > :29:50.because the risk is quite strong that...
:29:51. > :29:53.We will take a couple of points from the audience first.
:29:54. > :29:57.I feel like universities are going to lose the most from Brexit,
:29:58. > :29:59.especially the research that they do and the foreign students that
:30:00. > :30:02.you have coming in to also stimulate the local economy.
:30:03. > :30:04.A lot of students in Bristol and around the area,
:30:05. > :30:06.and we are going to lose a lot from that.
:30:07. > :30:10.Anybody else want to say, gentleman in the front row?
:30:11. > :30:13.This point about supporting farmers, the UK were supporting farmers
:30:14. > :30:16.They can easily do that after the EU.
:30:17. > :30:19.We don't need the EU to help farmers, thank you very much,
:30:20. > :30:22.especially when you put three quid in and get two quid back.
:30:23. > :30:28.I want to come back to the absolute question.
:30:29. > :30:30.Will the West of England suffer without EU funding?
:30:31. > :30:34.We will not, because it's our money with a slice taken by Brussels.
:30:35. > :30:36.The Conservatives have already said that all the agricultural
:30:37. > :30:40.But that agricultural support has come with conditions that have made
:30:41. > :30:42.it harder for farmers to be efficient farmers.
:30:43. > :30:44.Farmers say to me in North East Somerset that they feel
:30:45. > :30:47.they are made less efficient because of the payments
:30:48. > :30:52.They will welcome being able to farm as well as they possibly can,
:30:53. > :30:55.because they are good farmers, and that's what they want to do.
:30:56. > :30:58.What we have to ask ourselves about this money, our money,
:30:59. > :31:00.is who do we really want going into those
:31:01. > :31:09.And being clear with the European Union that we are not
:31:10. > :31:11.giving them 100 billion euros that they are asking for.
:31:12. > :31:13.We have no legal obligation to give them anything,
:31:14. > :31:17.and that's very important, because this 100 billion puts
:31:18. > :31:20.the 350 million on the back of a bus into a cocked hat.
:31:21. > :31:24.The amount they are asking for is absurd, and we have to be
:31:25. > :31:27.tough in those negotiations to make sure we get the best deal,
:31:28. > :31:30.and no sensible person goes into a negotiation without saying no
:31:31. > :31:50.Let's take the Labour view on this as well.
:31:51. > :31:54.I would say that over the last few weeks, Mrs May has shown herself
:31:55. > :31:57.to be someone that we can't trust from one week to the next to say
:31:58. > :32:03.I do not trust that she has my best interests, my children's best
:32:04. > :32:05.interests or the constituents of South Swindon's best interests
:32:06. > :32:09.I think she'll be just trying to save her own skin.
:32:10. > :32:11.Jacob, you had your doubts about Mrs May.
:32:12. > :32:13.She was your least favourite, I seem to remember.
:32:14. > :32:15.Have you changed your mind, very quickly?
:32:16. > :32:17.Very quickly, it's like the refining of a precious metal.
:32:18. > :32:20.I worked through all the fool's gold and realise that the 24 carat
:32:21. > :32:27.Our next question, moving swiftly on, and it's about education,
:32:28. > :32:35.Can the panel offer any reason to justify
:32:36. > :32:52.Tessa, in fact you went to more than one grammar
:32:53. > :33:05.Tessa, what do you think about the possibility
:33:06. > :33:12.I have to say, I think, Raymond, you are probably slightly more
:33:13. > :33:14.senior in years than some other members of the audience,
:33:15. > :33:18.and I have to say that the idea that you were too thick when somebody
:33:19. > :33:20.took a complete snapshot of your life at the age
:33:21. > :33:23.of 11 and what you knew is an appalling situation.
:33:24. > :33:24.Education should be a continuous process.
:33:25. > :33:31.I do not understand how anyone can think it's a sensible idea to put
:33:32. > :33:33.taxpayers' money into grammar schools and free schools
:33:34. > :33:39.I think the idea of doing that and taking money out of the sector,
:33:40. > :33:41.out of our ordinary schools, is bonkers.
:33:42. > :33:44.Now, I have to say to you that where I live, which is an area
:33:45. > :33:47.some of you will know, Glastonbury and Cheddar and Wells,
:33:48. > :33:49.Shepton Mallet and Highbridge and Burnham and the other places.
:33:50. > :33:52.But the reality is, how do you do a grammar school
:33:53. > :34:10.OK, gentleman in the front row, what do you think?
:34:11. > :34:13.I went to a public school, but I do not support grammar schools.
:34:14. > :34:16.My view is it is just taking money from the general education budget
:34:17. > :34:19.to give to a small group when there is not enough money
:34:20. > :34:25.Daniel Woolf, you teach at a grammar school?
:34:26. > :34:28.I taught at two grammar schools in Gloucester,
:34:29. > :34:30.and Gloucestershire has seven grammar schools in the entire
:34:31. > :34:32.county, so it's an issue that is quite hot for us.
:34:33. > :34:39.I think a one size fits all education policy or education
:34:40. > :34:42.system is like trying to get a goldfish to climb trees.
:34:43. > :34:48.So as well as being selective, I'd go one further,
:34:49. > :34:52.Let's have grammar schools for the academically gifted.
:34:53. > :34:54.Let's have creative and technical colleges for those who have
:34:55. > :35:00.And let's make sure that actually in this day and age we can
:35:01. > :35:02.have an individualised, personalised system which takes
:35:03. > :35:07.The 11 plus works very well for dealing with those that
:35:08. > :35:13.I think we need to look at other talents.
:35:14. > :35:16.We need to actually talk to the kids and say,
:35:17. > :35:19.Where are your strengths and weaknesses?
:35:20. > :35:25.And if we can tailor it to them, we will get better results.
:35:26. > :35:30.As a parent, that sounds utterly bizarre, that my children should
:35:31. > :35:32.choose whether they want to do art or maths.
:35:33. > :35:45.Why should the choice, why should they have to worry
:35:46. > :35:51.about whether or not those talents will be encouraged or nurtured
:35:52. > :35:57.Because a comprehensive will nurture all of their talents.
:35:58. > :36:00.So there is a fallacy here about parental choice
:36:01. > :36:03.It is not about parents choosing schools, it is about
:36:04. > :36:09.Bright children, if you want to be talking in academic terms, in very
:36:10. > :36:12.narrow terms as well, as the mother of three
:36:13. > :36:16.might be called traditionally bright, a creative middle one and
:36:17. > :36:18.maybe a more engineering focused third child.
:36:19. > :36:20.The point is, they're all smart kids that deserve the best
:36:21. > :36:29.all three should be going through a homogenised system
:36:30. > :36:31.The rather that one that actually counts their individual talents.
:36:32. > :36:33.You're a teacher, put some trust in our teachers.
:36:34. > :36:36.The teachers at the school where I'm a
:36:37. > :36:38.governor give an individual teaching programme to my children
:36:39. > :36:42.and they do it to the best strengths of those children, which are many
:36:43. > :36:44.Comprehensive education, when you put bright, academically
:36:45. > :36:47.bright children brings the standard up for everybody.
:36:48. > :36:50.So to be divisive about people who are able to pass an
:36:51. > :36:59.Yes, the gentleman in the T-shirt, straight
:37:00. > :37:05.Yeah, I did like Daniel's point about
:37:06. > :37:08.diversity as opposed to a centralised system where everyone
:37:09. > :37:16.And also, I do think that there's people at grammar
:37:17. > :37:20.schools who will struggle harder socially, you know.
:37:21. > :37:23.You might call them a nerd, but they do, they
:37:24. > :37:25.do, sort of, feel more comfortable in that setting in the grammar
:37:26. > :37:38.Hi, I think the culture you can get from a grammar school is
:37:39. > :37:42.fantastic, it's ambitious and it helps you to strive in whatever
:37:43. > :37:48.field they do so, but where it doesn't work is that the movement
:37:49. > :37:52.between schools isn't fluid enough, and for a child to go into a
:37:53. > :37:55.grammar school age of 11, they're going to have to rely on having
:37:56. > :37:57.parents that will create that environment at home whereas there
:37:58. > :38:00.are many students who only realise sort of the potential they have when
:38:01. > :38:04.they reach the age of 17 to 18 and for universities that's too late.
:38:05. > :38:07.I will bring in Jacob to bat for the Government in just a second.
:38:08. > :38:13.The first two went to school in Wales where there was one school,
:38:14. > :38:14.because everybody sent their children there.
:38:15. > :38:19.My daughter went to school in Gloustershire where there are
:38:20. > :38:21.selective schools and it was extremely decisive.
:38:22. > :38:24.It was very difficult to decide as a parent whether I was
:38:25. > :38:28.I think it was a disgrace that some people were
:38:29. > :38:32.condemned to failure from the age of 11.
:38:33. > :38:35.So I absolutely don't support the idea of selective education.
:38:36. > :38:38.We need to have all our young people in
:38:39. > :38:41.the same schools, getting to know each other to build a strong
:38:42. > :38:44.Actually the Green Party will go further than that.
:38:45. > :38:46.We think the endless testing of our young
:38:47. > :38:49.people is putting a great deal of stress on them.
:38:50. > :38:55.We should abolish SATs and stop this relentless testing of our young
:38:56. > :39:00.People which we don't think is serving the interests. And at the
:39:01. > :39:05.time when education budgets are so squeezed, and we will take comments
:39:06. > :39:07.about that later on, is it wise to talk about introducing grammar
:39:08. > :39:13.schools and giving money for that very small group that might be
:39:14. > :39:19.affected? I think the lady on the far right got to the nub of the
:39:20. > :39:23.issue which is that it is nuanced. It isn't something that should be
:39:24. > :39:26.done everywhere, but it is part of an overall educational choice,
:39:27. > :39:29.because we know that grammar schools are centres of educational
:39:30. > :39:34.excellence, and that should be encouraged. Educational excellence
:39:35. > :39:39.is a good thing in itself. On top of that we know that there are
:39:40. > :39:43.difficulties with an 11 only move into grammar schools, and we want a
:39:44. > :39:49.greater fluidity to allow brighter children to move at a later stage.
:39:50. > :39:53.90% of grammar schools are ranked by Ofsted as good or outstanding, so to
:39:54. > :39:57.include them in the educational mix seems to me to be wise and will
:39:58. > :40:01.improve the overall standard of education in this country, which to
:40:02. > :40:08.me is going to be very important in our competitiveness in the next
:40:09. > :40:12.decades, high-quality education will be crucial. Grammar schools provide
:40:13. > :40:20.that. Why not make that more broadly available? And I think it is very
:40:21. > :40:23.sensible. 50% of our secondary schools in Swindon at the moment are
:40:24. > :40:28.less than good, and that isn't because the teachers are not trying
:40:29. > :40:31.their hardest, it is because they are chronically underfunded. To then
:40:32. > :40:36.decide perhaps the other five, one or two of them will be grammars, and
:40:37. > :40:41.if you happen to be one of the others, you will be cast off into
:40:42. > :40:46.lifelong presumably, thoughts about yourself as less than clever. I'm
:40:47. > :40:49.sure you are not sick at all, but you brought that up, and to give
:40:50. > :40:55.children that stigma and label by separating them out... There is so
:40:56. > :40:59.much that says that if you put funding into the youngest of
:41:00. > :41:02.children, increase educational opportunity, that is why we
:41:03. > :41:07.introduced free school meals, and the idea of taking that out is
:41:08. > :41:14.madness. Because the really important thing about free school
:41:15. > :41:18.meals, Jacob, is that it means every child can learn in the afternoon,
:41:19. > :41:22.because they are not hungry and they are all treated equally and
:41:23. > :41:28.everybody gets the benefit. Free school meals are going to go back to
:41:29. > :41:34.being means tested. But this is not all about funding. The schools in
:41:35. > :41:37.Bath and North East Somerset by all governments have been consistently
:41:38. > :41:40.underfunded compared to schools in Bristol, they have had less money
:41:41. > :41:45.per pupil in decades, and yet Bristol parents often want to send
:41:46. > :41:48.their children to school in Bath and North East Somerset because they
:41:49. > :41:51.have got such good results. It is not all about funding, it is about
:41:52. > :41:56.structures and quality, and grammar schools are successful. I just want
:41:57. > :42:01.to go back, because you brought up the free school meals. When the
:42:02. > :42:04.Prime Minister, who you say is so strong and stable, when somebody
:42:05. > :42:11.said, I suggest we take free meals away from six-year-olds, why did she
:42:12. > :42:15.say, yes that's a good put it in the manifesto? Free school meals will
:42:16. > :42:21.continue to be provided for those whose parents can't afford them.
:42:22. > :42:27.That is really rubbish... It is sensible. There is a limited amount
:42:28. > :42:39.of public expenditure, and you want to devote the resources to those who
:42:40. > :42:43.need it most. In our last few seconds, a couple of points, the
:42:44. > :42:46.lady in the front? How can you justify pumping money into grammar
:42:47. > :42:50.schools when there are children in schools sending home letters asking
:42:51. > :42:54.parents for money from glue sticks and Sela tape, how can you justify
:42:55. > :42:58.that when you're putting money in grammar schools when are failing,
:42:59. > :43:04.offensive is. I went to a grammar school, but that was because the
:43:05. > :43:10.comprehensives we not great. Thank you very much. That I'm afraid
:43:11. > :43:15.brings us to the end of our 45 minutes, it has felt much shorter. I
:43:16. > :43:20.hope it has helped you decide at home where you want to put your
:43:21. > :43:24.cross next week. No doubt the debate will continue both here and online.
:43:25. > :43:30.Don't forget our hashtag on Twitter is #GE17west. You can watch this
:43:31. > :43:35.programme again on the iPlayer if you would like to. But for now, my
:43:36. > :43:35.thanks to all of us here, and from us, good night.
:43:36. > :44:02.APPLAUSE Hear the arguments
:44:03. > :44:05.from the politicians themselves.