:00:05. > :00:13.on Tuesday at the age of 86. This edition of hard to talk -- HARDtalk
:00:13. > :00:16.was recorded in 2008. The US is the world's pre-eminent
:00:17. > :00:21.economic and military power. But the American mood is characterised
:00:21. > :00:26.by uncertainty. Opinion polls point to a hunger for change, but will
:00:26. > :00:34.this year's presidential election deliver it? For six decades, my
:00:34. > :00:44.guest has just did -- charted the course of the US and novels,
:00:44. > :00:57.
:00:57. > :01:02.commentary and essays. Is the sun Gore Vidal, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:02. > :01:07.Thank you. Happy to be here. That may begin with this year's
:01:07. > :01:13.presidential election. Do you care who wins the White House? I don't
:01:13. > :01:19.take it personally, know. Does it matter? Yes, of course it matters.
:01:19. > :01:23.It matters to everybody. We have had an apparent government for
:01:23. > :01:32.quite some time now. The current president has never been elected by
:01:32. > :01:38.the people. Mr George W Bush was applauded by the Supreme Court, re-
:01:38. > :01:43.elected to to a stolen election in a higher, and he is not even
:01:43. > :01:51.legitimate. Yet, he goes marching around calling himself the wartime
:01:51. > :01:56.President. Will he isn't one. He is making wars as he goes along. He
:01:56. > :02:03.knows that is where the power is. The power of the military
:02:03. > :02:09.procurement. I think he thinks he is a toy soldier. Leaving aside the
:02:09. > :02:12.contentious be used to have about the legitimacy of George Bush's
:02:12. > :02:17.elections, I am wondering about your response to my question about
:02:17. > :02:22.whether it matters. Reading your extensive writings on the current
:02:22. > :02:28.state of America, the basically portray a country that has sold out
:02:28. > :02:32.to corporate interests, when military and economic powers have
:02:32. > :02:39.fundamentally corrupted the ideals of the Republic. Why does it
:02:39. > :02:45.actually matter whether it is Bowe, Clanton or McCain? Would you like
:02:45. > :02:50.to visit Guantanamo with me and look for a cell? Weary police state
:02:50. > :02:52.now. People are being locked up. Rendition. I have just come from
:02:53. > :03:00.Italy where someone had been arrested on the streets of Milan
:03:00. > :03:04.and shipped off to Egypt in the interest of American security. You
:03:04. > :03:11.see, we are surrounded by enemies on every side and we must attack.
:03:11. > :03:18.It has been a reign of terror since 9/11, all cooked up by the most
:03:18. > :03:22.extraordinary crew of people we have never seen in high office. And
:03:22. > :03:28.the people are not consulted. We have the worst educational system
:03:28. > :03:34.for the general public have any First World country. Simultaneously,
:03:34. > :03:41.we have a totally corrupted media that serves you ever is in power
:03:41. > :03:46.who will pay enough for television time. These big themes you trot out
:03:46. > :03:51.about war, education, failed media, these are protracted over time. Yet,
:03:51. > :03:56.you seem to be saying there is something exceptional about the
:03:56. > :04:02.Bush years. I am confused about this disjuncture. Don't be confused
:04:03. > :04:12.any longer. We have never had the constitution dreaded by a sitting
:04:13. > :04:14.
:04:14. > :04:19.President, but that has happened. A few months ago, we got rid of our
:04:19. > :04:29.lovely gift from England. Habeas corpus and so on. The Magna Carta.
:04:29. > :04:33.It's gone. It was the basis of our legal system. It is gone. D believe
:04:33. > :04:41.that when you say these things, most Americans have sympathy with
:04:41. > :04:46.you, or are you talking to a very small number of people? I have to
:04:46. > :04:50.warn you about something. I'm very popular. I'm not some aberrant he
:04:50. > :04:54.goes around saying unpleasant things about whoever happens to be
:04:54. > :04:59.the poet -- president. Unfortunately, I have to
:04:59. > :05:03.occasionally. We were lucky to get thank you pretty good candidates on
:05:03. > :05:09.the Democratic side in this election and one of the most
:05:09. > :05:14.incredibly awful ones in Senator McCain on the Republican side. Do
:05:14. > :05:23.you remember Mr Magoo? Blind, misses the point to everything, is
:05:23. > :05:28.always stepping off a cliff. Senator McCain is Mr Magoo. He is
:05:28. > :05:38.the most experienced candidate. he is the most experienced
:05:38. > :05:40.
:05:40. > :05:44.candidate. No he isn't. He smashed up his aeroplane. Normally, you get
:05:44. > :05:48.a court-martialled for that. Then he was taken prisoner and held for
:05:48. > :05:55.a long time and made no effort to free himself. Did he not show
:05:55. > :05:59.enormous courage? Discourage matinee President? Not courage of
:05:59. > :06:05.that kind. What has he ever done? What has he ever step -- said or
:06:05. > :06:09.stood for? What he has done over many years in the US Senate is
:06:09. > :06:14.stand up to many in his own party. He showed an independence of mind
:06:14. > :06:21.which might well be a useful asset in a President of the US. It might
:06:21. > :06:29.well be if he had any glimpse of sincerity and a nature -- of
:06:29. > :06:33.sincerity. He has a nature that is Magooish. But me ask you about
:06:33. > :06:38.Obama and Clanton. You are a Democrat and have always been.
:06:38. > :06:43.Sometimes, you seemed to sympathise more with Hillary Clinton. Now that
:06:43. > :06:46.the race appears to be in its final lap and Obama is regarded by
:06:46. > :06:54.pundits as certain to win the nomination, t think she should
:06:54. > :07:00.withdraw? No. She has fought a good fight. It was for something larger
:07:00. > :07:06.than herself. You could argue it is just for herself, she is the
:07:06. > :07:10.candidate. But simultaneously, no woman has ever got that far in our
:07:10. > :07:18.politics. She has been a brilliant politician and I certainly wish her
:07:18. > :07:25.well. You were quoted recently as suggesting that her continued
:07:25. > :07:29.pursuit of the presidency was crazy. Well, I'm looking at it
:07:29. > :07:33.sympathetically from her point of view. It is crazy. She does not
:07:33. > :07:38.have the money, she is desperately trying to raise it. She has the
:07:38. > :07:48.entire press against her. The Republicans are very good at
:07:48. > :07:49.
:07:49. > :07:56.smearing people. We had a very good candidate in Senator Kerry. An old
:07:56. > :08:03.trick of political gangsters is one of the opponent is strong, Kurri
:08:03. > :08:09.was a genuine war hero, and he was knocked down for that. They said
:08:09. > :08:16.that he was not courageous, he lied. They had people come out and they
:08:16. > :08:22.spent a lot of money smearing him. You are very adept at turning your
:08:22. > :08:29.answers in two attacks on the Republican Party... It is very easy
:08:29. > :08:33.to. But in the Airtime, Clanton fight, there are many people on the
:08:33. > :08:43.Obama side of the fancy believe it is the Clintons who are responsible
:08:43. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:51.for introducing a very strong and arguably dangerous racial element.
:08:51. > :08:58.This is exactly what the other team wants to do. The only thing they
:08:58. > :09:02.know is how to smear people. The other day, there was a guy called
:09:02. > :09:09.Ludwig who is a Neo-conservative -- Neo-conservative of the lowest form.
:09:09. > :09:15.He published an op-ed piece in the New York Times. An extraordinarily
:09:15. > :09:20.bad newspaper in my view. He was saying with no evidence - everybody
:09:20. > :09:30.in America -- everything in America his opinion - the opinion was that
:09:30. > :09:39.
:09:39. > :09:42.we should be wary of Bowe. -- of Hillary Clinton said she was the
:09:42. > :09:50.candidate who could appeal to the white working class. Was that a
:09:50. > :09:57.mistake? Note. To say it in racial terms? She did not do it in racial
:09:57. > :10:05.terms. Her various handlers in a party where she was strong with the
:10:05. > :10:12.boats. I'll tell you where she was weak. It gets a nice laugh. When
:10:12. > :10:21.she started to run for senator for New York, they discovered that
:10:21. > :10:27.there was one group that really hated her. This is white middle
:10:27. > :10:31.aged men of property. She was talking to others and asking what
:10:31. > :10:40.she had done to them. She was trying to figure out how she could
:10:40. > :10:50.rectify this. Some time after she had been told the bad news, I saw
:10:50. > :10:54.
:10:54. > :11:00.her and she said "Apparently a remind them of their first wife."
:11:00. > :11:10.let me ask you about Bowe. He said he is fresh but has not done
:11:10. > :11:20.
:11:20. > :11:27.It is standard political rhetoric for a liberal from Chicago in a
:11:27. > :11:31.race for president. People have compared him to JFK. JFK was not
:11:31. > :11:37.the greatest statesman of all time. He was certainly a rhetorician who
:11:37. > :11:41.could electrify the American public. He went there. I was not around at
:11:41. > :11:46.the time but I have seen his speeches and they are quite
:11:46. > :11:55.extraordinary. So what? A good speech is a good speech. That's
:11:55. > :12:05.that. What is a good policy? Was his invasion of Cuba a good policy?
:12:05. > :12:07.
:12:07. > :12:17.Jacking up the war in Vietnam? Into a major war. This is enough bad
:12:17. > :12:20.
:12:20. > :12:30.activity on his part. He is not a parrot on. But if Bowe wins, would
:12:30. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:36.you change your mind about him? don't want a man mouthing cliches.
:12:37. > :12:44.Let me ask you to take a step back. You have been an observer of
:12:44. > :12:50.politics, not a player. Yet, in your career, you could have been a
:12:50. > :12:52.player. The Democrats wanted to. He ran for office once and were
:12:52. > :13:01.offered what looked like a safe congressional seat but decided not
:13:01. > :13:06.to do it. I was writing books again and that is far more important than
:13:06. > :13:11.seven in Congress. Is it? Yes it is. The books make more of a difference
:13:11. > :13:18.then serving your country in Congress? I would like to take you
:13:18. > :13:21.on the floor of Congress and see all the lobbyists outside lined up.
:13:21. > :13:30.They have a buzzer in the House of Representatives that goes up. It
:13:30. > :13:35.means there is about to be a boat called. As you go end, two or three
:13:35. > :13:39.lobbyists will say eight years on one for 7, No on this one. They are
:13:39. > :13:49.getting their orders. From the people who are giving them the
:13:49. > :13:54.money. You can be pure and not listen, but it is a rough fight. I
:13:54. > :13:59.would rather take on those who are out to destroy the Republic.
:13:59. > :14:09.your weapon is a novel Warren as a? -- SA, what difference can you
:14:09. > :14:09.
:14:09. > :14:17.make? -- a novel or an essay. seem to have it. Do you think you
:14:17. > :14:22.have? I can prove it. Fine. I have Paul's done on me. What did you
:14:23. > :14:32.most like about the speech he gave, what positions do you approve work?
:14:33. > :14:38.
:14:38. > :14:42.We read your work and we hear many criticisms. The actually love your
:14:42. > :14:47.country? You seem to have a complicated country. Anyone who
:14:47. > :14:53.loves the country is in such trouble. That is nonsense. Added
:14:53. > :15:00.that has come every war, every family and everything that is wrong.
:15:00. > :15:09.-- fan and. But you care about the US? Why am I talking to you about
:15:09. > :15:15.it? It is not that I am exhilarated by sitting here. I suspect it is
:15:15. > :15:21.not. What is the answer? Why had he spent most of your time writing
:15:21. > :15:27.about the ideals that brought America into being, about its
:15:27. > :15:34.history? Shouldn't somebody do it? I am interested in the country, not
:15:34. > :15:39.me or my career. All the other writers who I know, they are only
:15:39. > :15:44.interested about themselves and making it. I could not give a god
:15:44. > :15:54.damn about making. It did not stop you from being waspish and bitchy
:15:54. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :16:02.about your fellow writers. If he didn't care... I only write about
:16:02. > :16:07.them occasionally as a critic. Always to praise. Chairman Capote
:16:08. > :16:17.he passed away, you described it as a good career move. I did say that.
:16:18. > :16:28.
:16:28. > :16:35.-- Truman Capote de. I am finding, from time to time. -- funny. I am
:16:35. > :16:43.jittery with insecurity. That number does not work. Capote de was
:16:43. > :16:47.the most illegitimate literary figure of we ever produced. He was
:16:47. > :16:55.a consumer Flyer. He never stop lying. I took him to court and I
:16:55. > :17:03.sued him. I won. He had to print a huge apology to mean in one of his
:17:03. > :17:10.books. You have spent a large part of your life, most of your creative
:17:10. > :17:16.years, in Italy. And yet you say you were not in exile. Of course I
:17:16. > :17:21.wasn't. What we doing? I was writing books about America.
:17:21. > :17:28.wouldn't it be more natural to be doing it in America? Your mind is
:17:28. > :17:38.in conflict. What does it give you? That distance? It gave me history.
:17:38. > :17:40.
:17:40. > :17:45.It gave me Aristotle. I am quite good with Aristotle. It allowed you
:17:45. > :17:54.critics, he had many in the US, to suggest your view of America was
:17:54. > :17:59.out of touch with the country that now is. It is not. I reminded you
:17:59. > :18:09.earlier, don't forget that I am popular. They read my books out
:18:09. > :18:13.
:18:13. > :18:18.there. You cannot pretend that I am unpopular. America in the world,
:18:18. > :18:24.you have written a lot about it. You have talked about an American
:18:24. > :18:31.empire which you see it as being in decline. Is it a terminal decline?
:18:32. > :18:37.I hope so. Henry James was no full when it came to politics. He ended
:18:37. > :18:42.up his life living every here as a Brit. But he said something very
:18:42. > :18:50.interesting. It was the time of the Spanish American war which we used
:18:50. > :18:58.as an excuse to seize the Philippine Islands. One of his
:18:58. > :19:08.nephews wrote to him and asked him about what is going on in the US.
:19:08. > :19:10.
:19:10. > :19:18.And he read a very ominous letter back to his nephew. He said, where
:19:18. > :19:28.an empire symbolises the British, it will further Barbara's house. --
:19:28. > :19:29.
:19:29. > :19:39.destroy asked. After 9/11, the Bush administration faced a challenge.
:19:39. > :19:41.
:19:41. > :19:46.There is no such thing. The Twin Towers came crashing down. You're
:19:46. > :19:53.underground when crashing up, whatever it did. This is a period
:19:53. > :19:58.of unrest. Do not believe, some people are very sympathetic to you.
:19:58. > :20:03.They admire you a great deal like Christopher Hitchens and Martin
:20:04. > :20:12.Amis. They are believed the US has a duty to take a stand for freedom
:20:12. > :20:17.and democracy in the face of intolerance. We had an idiot
:20:17. > :20:24.prisoner named Woodrow Wilson. He got us into World War One. -- idiot
:20:24. > :20:32.President. Why did we go to war? He wanted to make the world safe for
:20:32. > :20:38.democracy. Meaningless. Politically, a strategically and morally. There
:20:38. > :20:46.were never be a good war. You can never prove it by me. The Second
:20:46. > :20:52.World War? A war worth fighting? spent three years in it. For those
:20:52. > :20:58.who like wars, I suppose it was the only one we had for a while. What
:20:58. > :21:02.about Bill Clinton's admission that he wished he used American power to
:21:02. > :21:12.intervene in the wonder? He is a politician. He says anything that
:21:12. > :21:13.
:21:13. > :21:17.might work. Is there a moral obligation for the US... no I don't.
:21:17. > :21:25.Morality is the last thing to Republicans would ever do or talk
:21:25. > :21:32.about. We have been immoral from the very beginning. We did very
:21:33. > :21:42.well for a time. Now we get worse, and worse, and West. Your
:21:42. > :21:51.grandfather was an isolationist. So was I. I prefer to be an
:21:51. > :21:55.interventionist. England got into the bad habits, around 1939, in
:21:55. > :22:03.trying to draw the US into continental wars. It was no
:22:03. > :22:13.business of ours. Wisely, I should -- isolation less always won.
:22:13. > :22:21.Roosevelt was a very sighted man. He was all for getting us in. First
:22:21. > :22:25.of all, against Japan which was running riot in Asia. And the
:22:26. > :22:31.Europe with Hitler. Because you don't like a dictator does not mean
:22:31. > :22:37.you go to war all the time. We are almost at a time. Yes, we are, in
:22:37. > :22:43.every sense. Before time closes down on us. Do you think you are
:22:43. > :22:50.swimming with the tide of American history? If I was, I would reverse.
:22:50. > :22:56.You are a country Erian. No, I am practical. The US is going out of
:22:56. > :23:03.business and I do not enjoy that. We are irrelevant. And it is
:23:03. > :23:08.irresistible, in its decline? cannot do it alone, can I? You told
:23:08. > :23:14.me you are very popular. I am but I am not going to run for president.