0:00:03 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Today I'm in Paris for a special edition of HARDtalk.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19My guest came to the city a week ago from the jungles of Colombia.
0:00:19 > 0:00:24She came as a free woman after more than six years as perhaps the most
0:00:24 > 0:00:25famous captive in the world.
0:00:25 > 0:00:30Hers is an extraordinary story, from hellish imprisonment
0:00:30 > 0:00:32to miraculous rescue.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36And now Ingrid Betancourt is ready to tell it.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Ingrid Betancourt, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:04 > 0:01:10Thank you so much, I'm so glad to be here with you today.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Thank you so much, I'm so glad to be here with you today.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16We're very glad to have you on the programme.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19You've had a week and a little bit more of freedom.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21How do you feel now? Well, it's a shock.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24First, because after years of being everyday submerged
0:01:24 > 0:01:26First, because after years of being everyday submerged
0:01:27 > 0:01:28into sadness, I'm the opposite now.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32It's the euphoria of being with my family,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35and feeling so much happiness, it's just great.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Has the euphoria to any extent worn off yet?
0:01:37 > 0:01:40No.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I hope it won't go ever again.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47I mean, I would like to always remember how great it is to be alive
0:01:47 > 0:01:51and how great it is to be free.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53I don't want to forget it.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56I think we shouldn't forget.
0:01:56 > 0:01:57It's a privilege.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59Has it been somewhat disorientating to be,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03for more than six years, a captive with no choices,
0:02:03 > 0:02:07no ability to make any decision for yourself,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11suddenly to be pushed into this world where there are thousands
0:02:11 > 0:02:15of choices to be made every day?
0:02:15 > 0:02:20That's true, that's one of the impacts of this new life.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24There are others, like for example knowing that I don't have a life,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27I have to build a life.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31I am intruding in the life of my children, they have their life,
0:02:31 > 0:02:36they have to continue their life, now with the present.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40And so I know that I need to find my way, which is not,
0:02:40 > 0:02:48I mean, it's not easy, but it's beautiful.
0:02:48 > 0:02:54But I think I need to just, I think I am achieving the first
0:02:54 > 0:02:57part of this new life, getting in touch with everybody
0:02:57 > 0:03:05and thanking everybody, but I know that now I have to just
0:03:05 > 0:03:09retreat and be alone with my family and construct my matrix with the one
0:03:09 > 0:03:20I love, and then it will take time.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23I know I need time.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27I want to talk more about your family and the future but now
0:03:27 > 0:03:28I want to...
0:03:28 > 0:03:32Tell me exactly what you remember of the release, the rescue,
0:03:32 > 0:03:39because there have been a lot of details released about it.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41People across the world are fascinated.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44It seems miraculous but how did it look from your point of view?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Well, what you said, the exact word is miraculous.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53When I think about my life, I say it's incredible what happened.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56I will tell you.
0:03:56 > 0:04:07We woke up at four in the morning with our normal things to do.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10I always pray, and I would wait for my mother's message
0:04:10 > 0:04:14on the radio.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17It was very important for me.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20And then they released us.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23We were chained and they said "You have to pack, you have
0:04:23 > 0:04:24to get ready."
0:04:24 > 0:04:27We knew because we had talks with the commanders,
0:04:27 > 0:04:32that there was an international commission that was planned to get
0:04:32 > 0:04:37in touch with us, but we didn't know really what was going to happen.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40During that morning, one of the commanders came to speak
0:04:40 > 0:04:47to me and I asked him what we could be waiting for,
0:04:47 > 0:04:51and he said, "There is a helicopter that will come and it will take
0:04:51 > 0:04:56you somewhere where you are going to talk with the higher commanders",
0:04:56 > 0:05:03and then afterwards he said, "I don't know, perhaps some
0:05:03 > 0:05:07of you will be free, perhaps some of you are going to be
0:05:07 > 0:05:09transferred somewhere else or perhaps you are going
0:05:09 > 0:05:10to come back here.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14We don't know," he said.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17So when I spoke and shared this information with my inmates,
0:05:17 > 0:05:24what I thought was perhaps one of us could be released.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28Of course I know that in our hearts we all prayed that it was our turn,
0:05:28 > 0:05:35so we were like excited but frightened, you now?
0:05:35 > 0:05:38And at the same time, for example in my case I didn't
0:05:38 > 0:05:41want to be released without the others.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45I knew it wouldn't be, I felt it wasn't good.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49I didn't want that to happen.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52And then we saw the helicopters.
0:05:52 > 0:05:58Then they moved us when the helicopters approached the site.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03We had to cross the river, we were very close to the site
0:06:03 > 0:06:06where the landing was done.
0:06:06 > 0:06:12And there was a group of five people that came out of the helicopter,
0:06:12 > 0:06:18four men and a woman, and these guys were dressed in white.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21And they had all kind of badges and things,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25and I thought, my God.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28And my friends were asking me, "Do you know these guys,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31are these guys French?
0:06:31 > 0:06:33Are they Swiss?"
0:06:33 > 0:06:36And I said, I don't know, I don't know them,
0:06:36 > 0:06:39I don't recognise anybody.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43And we were surrounded while the guards that were telling
0:06:43 > 0:06:46us to shut up and not to talk.
0:06:46 > 0:06:47The FARC guys?
0:06:48 > 0:06:49The FARC guys.
0:06:49 > 0:06:54And they were very excited, and they were aggressive.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58And these guys came and they wanted to talk only to the commanders
0:06:58 > 0:07:01so they went away with the commanders and we could see
0:07:01 > 0:07:07that they were hugging and they were giving them things
0:07:07 > 0:07:10and then we saw they gave them like some drinks to give
0:07:10 > 0:07:17to all the group, and we thought, what is this?
0:07:17 > 0:07:25It's the FARC, it's those guys, they are the same.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29It's not an international commission, this is fake.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33And there was in the group a cameraman, and he was taping.
0:07:33 > 0:07:39So I felt very uncomfortable and tried to keep in the rear
0:07:39 > 0:07:41because I did not want them to take me.
0:07:41 > 0:07:46So you are now feeling deep disappointment.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48You thought perhaps this was an international mission,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51perhaps even some of you might be free and suddenly you think,
0:07:51 > 0:07:53this is just another FARC move.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Yes, and they are using us, they want to show the world
0:07:56 > 0:08:01that we are OK, that we are alive, and probably they will use
0:08:01 > 0:08:05the images to say, "Don't worry, we are the good guys,
0:08:05 > 0:08:10we're taking care of them."
0:08:10 > 0:08:12So to prepare everybody, like for four or five years
0:08:12 > 0:08:16more of abduction.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18So they handcuffed you?
0:08:18 > 0:08:19Well, that was the thing.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22They said if you want to get into the helicopter,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24you have to be handcuffed.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27It was so humiliating.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30And one of my companions said, "I don't want to get
0:08:30 > 0:08:32into the helicopter, I refuse.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34I'm not going with you, I'm not going to accept
0:08:34 > 0:08:36to be handcuffed."
0:08:36 > 0:08:41I knew from the experience I had with the FARC that we couldn't,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45I mean if the FARC had decided to take us in the helicopter,
0:08:45 > 0:08:48when you have a gun pointed at you you will not ask
0:08:48 > 0:08:52if you like or if you do not like, you have to do what they tell
0:08:52 > 0:08:53you to do.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56I am trying to imagine you in your handcuffs,
0:08:56 > 0:08:59taken into the helicopter, it takes off and at this point
0:08:59 > 0:09:03you have not an inkling that rescue is at hand.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07No.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11We see the commanders that have been with us during all this time,
0:09:11 > 0:09:14our enemies that have been so cruel with us,
0:09:14 > 0:09:20that have been in the helicopter with us, and then in a second,
0:09:20 > 0:09:27the guy is on the floor.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29I see everybody punching him and I said, what happened?
0:09:29 > 0:09:33And then it is like in the same second the leader of the operation
0:09:33 > 0:09:44screams, "We are the Colombian army, you are free."
0:09:44 > 0:09:45It's something incredible.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47I cannot find words to tell you.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Because I knew it had to be real.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55And at the same time, the explosion of feelings
0:09:55 > 0:09:58was so intense that I was like, I thought perhaps
0:09:58 > 0:10:04I wasn't feeling anything.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08I screamed, I was yelling, and then I thought,
0:10:09 > 0:10:10this is ridiculous, I cannot screen.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12My God.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15And then all the others came and helped me and everybody
0:10:15 > 0:10:18was kissing me, and I was in tears, but at the same time,
0:10:18 > 0:10:19is it true?
0:10:19 > 0:10:24It was like...
0:10:24 > 0:10:26The greatest? The greatest moment.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29The greatest moment of your life?
0:10:29 > 0:10:34No, because the birth of my children was better.
0:10:34 > 0:10:40But that was the greatest moment of all this ordeal.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44At that moment also you can see the guys who had been responsible
0:10:44 > 0:10:48for your captivity themselves bound.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51I think one of them was naked.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Did you feel intense anger at that point.
0:10:54 > 0:10:59Did you want to go and kick them? No, no.
0:10:59 > 0:11:05I was telling my companions not to do that because I had
0:11:05 > 0:11:09a moment, some seconds.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13I prayed.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17I prayed to God.
0:11:17 > 0:11:23You know, I think that it's very important to be free,
0:11:23 > 0:11:30totally free, and I think that anger or seeking revenge or bitterness,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33it is like chains.
0:11:33 > 0:11:40The same chains that they had us wearing all those years.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41It is like those kind of chains.
0:11:42 > 0:11:47But at the same time you cannot forget what they did to you.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50You must forgive and you must not forget.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53But it is for another reason.
0:11:53 > 0:11:57I think that psychologically speaking you have to forget.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00You have to.
0:12:00 > 0:12:06That is what I'm doing great now, I'm trying to just have a break.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09I need those memories to come up to the surface very slowly.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Because I know that I am fragile still.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16And there are things that I just can't cope with.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19You mean memories of physical abuse?
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Memories, memories of things.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26But at the same time, I know that those things that
0:12:26 > 0:12:30I lived, not only me but all of us, we have to do the necessary crossing
0:12:30 > 0:12:36inside of ourselves to give testimony so that what we lived does
0:12:36 > 0:12:42not happen again to anybody else.
0:12:42 > 0:12:50Because the world wants to know what the FARC did to you.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Did they torture you?
0:12:53 > 0:12:56I am not going to talk about those things.
0:12:56 > 0:12:58It is just a decision I have made.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01I am not ready.
0:13:01 > 0:13:07I don't know if sometime in the future I will talk
0:13:07 > 0:13:10about those things, but what I know is that the world,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14it is sufficient for the world to know that war is something that
0:13:14 > 0:13:26breaks lives and breaks your soul and that those that do not know
0:13:27 > 0:13:32what being victims of a war is cannot understand the privilege
0:13:32 > 0:13:38to live in peace.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41I want to show to you words that you yourself wrote to your daughter,
0:13:42 > 0:13:43Melanie.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46We had Melanie on our programme, we talked to her a couple
0:13:46 > 0:13:47of months ago.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50It was an extraordinarily courageous interview she gave us.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54And she shared with us the words that you wrote to her,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57when you talked of being weary of suffering.
0:13:57 > 0:14:04You said, "Sometimes death seems to me the sweet option."
0:14:04 > 0:14:08You must have been at a terrible place when you wrote that.
0:14:08 > 0:14:16Yes.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19Now it's the time to think about the others that
0:14:19 > 0:14:23are still living that ordeal and to know that we can make
0:14:23 > 0:14:28the difference for them in their lives, if we are vocal,
0:14:28 > 0:14:35if we move, if we just...
0:14:35 > 0:14:38We have to fight for them.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43We have to fight for them.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52You left a lot of people behind.
0:14:52 > 0:14:53Yes.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55How do you cope with that knowledge?
0:14:55 > 0:14:59There are believed to be perhaps 700 prisoners still held by the FARC.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02If the numbers are accurate, we have 3000 hostages in Colombia,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05700 held by the FARC, and there are 25 persons that
0:15:05 > 0:15:15were political prisoners like me.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18The others are held - the FARC has this horrible business
0:15:18 > 0:15:19of kidnapping people for money.
0:15:23 > 0:15:33So the 700 we're talking about, they want money for various reasons.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37But the difference is that the political hostages,
0:15:37 > 0:15:52our families cannot do anything about our situation.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55We have to go through others to take care of our problem
0:15:55 > 0:16:06because it is political.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09So I think it's - that is why, well, we have to move.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Do you fear for their current situation, given that you and 14
0:16:13 > 0:16:15others, the most high-profile prisoners have been seized
0:16:15 > 0:16:16from the grip of the FARC?
0:16:16 > 0:16:22Yes.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25I'll tell you, there's not a minute of my life,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29day and night, in any of my dreams since I have been released,
0:16:29 > 0:16:31that I don't have this communion with their fate,
0:16:31 > 0:16:41knowing that they can be killed at any moment.
0:16:41 > 0:16:42They are at risk.
0:16:42 > 0:16:53And this has to end now.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Because every second that is added to their suffering is a second
0:16:56 > 0:16:58where the risk of death is present.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03How does it end?
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Do you believe that President Uribe of Colombia should continue
0:17:06 > 0:17:08with the tough military strategy and in the end,
0:17:08 > 0:17:17should he seek to destroy the FARC?
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I think that the FARC have to understand that it's over.
0:17:20 > 0:17:21It's over.
0:17:21 > 0:17:33Their time is over.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36The world wants to see a Colombia in peace.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38There is no place for them any more in Colombia.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42I'm not going to tell the president of Colombia what to do,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45the only thing that I know is that the hearts of all Colombians
0:17:45 > 0:17:47are seeking a new life.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50We want to be able to recover our country in peace,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53and that's something that Uribe has to reflect on and the FARC have
0:17:53 > 0:17:58to reflect on, too.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01But it would be fair to say when you were taken you actually
0:18:01 > 0:18:04were in FARC territory because as a presidential candidate
0:18:04 > 0:18:11you believed it was worthwhile trying to open up a dialogue.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14Do you still believe there is something to talk about,
0:18:14 > 0:18:20to negotiate about, or now it has to be a question of FARC surrender?
0:18:20 > 0:18:23We are human beings and human beings are beings of words.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24The word is what makes us different.
0:18:25 > 0:18:26The words are our strongest weapon.
0:18:26 > 0:18:44We need to talk to make peace.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47The only way we're going to solve the problems in Colombia
0:18:47 > 0:18:50is if we establish a space where we can talk without fearing
0:18:50 > 0:19:01to be killed.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04So this is something that we have to work on.
0:19:04 > 0:19:05It's not easy.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08We know it in our everyday life, in the family when there
0:19:08 > 0:19:09is a problem, finding the right words, saying them in the right
0:19:11 > 0:19:20moment with the right tone, it is difficult.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Well, that happens also for a nation.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25You described how you would listen to your mother on the radio.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28You have also described how messages from your family were the oxygen,
0:19:28 > 0:19:32the thing that kept your head above water, you said.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35How did you, throughout those years, know what was happening
0:19:35 > 0:19:42to your family, to your country?
0:19:42 > 0:19:43How did you know?
0:19:43 > 0:19:44Well, I had the radio.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48The radio was our TV, DVD, all those gadgets that you have now,
0:19:48 > 0:19:50and that I don't know how to use.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52They let you listen to the BBC?
0:19:52 > 0:19:53It was so important.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56I listened to the BBC every day, twice a day.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59I can tell you the names of all the guys that broadcast
0:19:59 > 0:20:12in the BBC.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15The guys that work in the BBC for the radio, they have this
0:20:15 > 0:20:18incredible ability to be so expressive in describing things
0:20:18 > 0:20:22where they are that you just listen to them and you see.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25You can see what they are talking about.
0:20:25 > 0:20:28You can hear their surroundings, and you know if there is wind,
0:20:28 > 0:20:30if it is hot, you see it.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33But Ingrid Betancourt, in the end, despite the expressive journalism
0:20:33 > 0:20:36you were able to listen to, you could not know
0:20:36 > 0:20:39what was happening to your family and I want to know, before
0:20:39 > 0:20:51we finish, what it has been like getting to know your daughter,
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Melanie, your son, Lorenzo, again, having missed six years
0:20:54 > 0:20:55of their growing up.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57I believe, 19, your son - 21 your daughter.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01What has it been like getting to know them again?
0:21:01 > 0:21:03It has been a magic blessing.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05That sounds like, I mean, the opposite, but it's
0:21:05 > 0:21:19nothing like that.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22It's magic because it's something that happens like this,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25and it's a blessing because I just feel it comes from God.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29I mean it's like for example I tell you, I was feeling so much that
0:21:29 > 0:21:36when I would see my mother again, I would see an old woman.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38And I knew it would break my heart.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Because when I left, she was beautiful and so active.
0:21:41 > 0:21:54And when I saw her, it was like no day, the time didn't touch her.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57But my children, it was exactly the opposite.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00I knew that those children that I left had become adults
0:22:00 > 0:22:03and I was trying to imagine how they would be physically
0:22:03 > 0:22:04and in their character and spiritually.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06And I would always be so...
0:22:06 > 0:22:07I would imagine things, the best.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10What would be the best that I could expect?
0:22:10 > 0:22:13And the reality was better than all the best that
0:22:13 > 0:22:20I could imagine.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22You sit here and you have been through unimaginable things,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25and yet you look so serene and so strong.
0:22:25 > 0:22:38But that's the exterior, that's what I see.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41I just wonder, when you think about yourself, Ingrid Betancourt,
0:22:41 > 0:22:48how have you changed over the last six and a half years?
0:22:48 > 0:22:51How are you different now from the woman that you were,
0:22:51 > 0:22:52running for President in 2002?
0:22:52 > 0:22:54I'm a woman, I'm a fragile woman.
0:22:54 > 0:22:55The difference is that now I know, so I take care.
0:22:56 > 0:22:57You know what?
0:22:57 > 0:23:01That I'm fragile.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Ingrid Betancourt, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk with me.
0:23:04 > 0:23:25Thank you.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26Hello.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28I know many gardeners in England wanted some rain,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31but I suspect some of those gardens are now water-logged
0:23:31 > 0:23:32after what happened during Wednesday.