:00:11. > :00:16.speech on behalf of a charity. Now it is time for HARDtalk.
:00:16. > :00:23.His Syria in the throes of a revolution? More than 1,000 people
:00:23. > :00:28.are said to have been killed in the Government's response to protests.
:00:28. > :00:38.But the rebellion has not been crushed. Here are the organisers
:00:38. > :00:41.
:00:41. > :00:48.and activists of the street revolt? What do they want? My guest today
:00:48. > :00:53.is Najib Ghadbian. She is a member of the newly-formed Syrian
:00:54. > :01:03.Opposition Consultative Council. What would happen if President
:01:04. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.Assad went? It would chaos follow? Najib Ghadbian, welcome to HARDtalk.
:01:17. > :01:24.Thank you for having me. Let's start with the latest reports on
:01:24. > :01:30.the grounds of Syria. We're not allowed into Syria but reports
:01:30. > :01:36.suggest there is a huge amount of tension around a northern town.
:01:36. > :01:40.What are you hearing? We're hearing a couple of things. Firstly there
:01:40. > :01:46.is a mass movement of people are afraid they will be it revenge from
:01:46. > :01:53.the authorities. They left towns and are at the border. Numbers
:01:53. > :01:59.estimate between 1015 hundred. They're mostly on the Syrian side
:01:59. > :02:09.of the border. Some Irene Turkey. We have been able to talk to some
:02:09. > :02:15.
:02:15. > :02:25.of them but we're losing contact. They started increasing. Let's get
:02:25. > :02:31.this straight. The BBC has been told that the Government says 120
:02:32. > :02:38.security personnel were massacred by armed gangs in that northern
:02:38. > :02:45.town. Are you saying that did not happen? We very much question the
:02:45. > :02:51.story of the armed gangs. We have soldiers -- stories of soldiers who
:02:51. > :03:01.had been killed. We believe this is because they opened fire on
:03:01. > :03:02.
:03:02. > :03:11.demonstrators or they defected. We have 21 documented cases of
:03:12. > :03:17.protesters killed. Most of soldiers to have been killed have been by
:03:17. > :03:22.security forces for refusing to carry out orders. The Syrian
:03:22. > :03:26.government has provided the names, the background to the dozens and
:03:26. > :03:32.dozens of security force personnel who they say have been killed by
:03:32. > :03:37.armed gangs and extremists. Given the level of detail it does seem
:03:37. > :03:43.they must be some truth behind the notion that some of the protesters,
:03:43. > :03:48.the opposition forces, have arms and day using them. We know that
:03:48. > :03:53.some people have arms but so far they have shown great restraint.
:03:53. > :03:58.One of the strengths of the revolution is that it is peaceful.
:03:58. > :04:05.But you know that a substantial number of protesters have access to
:04:05. > :04:15.weapons. Some people in towns do have personal weapons, like pistols
:04:15. > :04:17.
:04:17. > :04:27.and rifles. There has been talking up arms coming over the border, for
:04:27. > :04:31.
:04:31. > :04:41.example by Turkey. What we're have here is a professional army. Then
:04:41. > :04:42.
:04:42. > :04:48.we have this elite unit recruited by individuals loyal to the regime.
:04:48. > :04:55.It is these elite units that are being carried out -- carrying out
:04:55. > :05:00.most of the killings, not the regular Army. We have the story of
:05:00. > :05:06.a soldier who was brave enough to say that he was witness to two
:05:06. > :05:14.massacres. It is very difficult for you to know what is going on, just
:05:14. > :05:17.as it is for me. You're based in the United States and are now very
:05:17. > :05:22.involved with the precedent reformists. The fact is you are a
:05:22. > :05:30.long way from the action. How can you be sure that the information
:05:30. > :05:34.you are receiving it is not manipulated? What is happening, by
:05:34. > :05:42.not allowing independent media access to Syria, which we would
:05:42. > :05:48.like. Remember that Egypt was a televised resolution -- revolution.
:05:48. > :05:55.The young people here are very savvy with technology a video
:05:55. > :06:02.taping what is happening on the ground. They send them to ask. This
:06:02. > :06:12.is the only way for us to spread the word. Many people watching this
:06:12. > :06:12.
:06:12. > :06:18.will the scene graphic images of bodies and security force and now -
:06:19. > :06:28.- personnel beating protesters. But it is easy to manipulate stories
:06:29. > :06:29.
:06:29. > :06:35.and 40. But let's look at the case of the gay girl in Damascus. That
:06:35. > :06:45.was her blog title. It has become unclear whether this apparently
:06:45. > :06:47.
:06:47. > :06:52.brave woman actually existed. There is a? About that. She does exist. I
:06:52. > :07:02.know colleagues to know her as a person. I do not know her
:07:02. > :07:05.
:07:05. > :07:11.personally. How do you explain that the US embassy in Damascus says
:07:11. > :07:17.they have no record of her? I do not have this detail but it is not
:07:17. > :07:24.in our interests to exaggerate news. We do not need to do that. The
:07:24. > :07:30.facts and the figures speak for themselves. Let's talk about these
:07:30. > :07:37.stories of the tortured boy. A 13- year-old boy he was involved in a
:07:37. > :07:47.protest. His badly brutalised body was returned to his family later in
:07:47. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:54.May. What they asked the family to do is buried the body right away.
:07:54. > :08:00.But they called someone with a video camera to tell the story.
:08:00. > :08:06.This is to prevent further brutality and killings. We do not
:08:06. > :08:14.need to make up anything. The regime is carrying out all for
:08:14. > :08:23.crimes. But just to be clear about this, you're not denying that
:08:23. > :08:30.protesters have access to some weapons? If they have access -- i
:08:30. > :08:37.using weapons, do you think that is justifiable? People have the right
:08:37. > :08:42.to defend themselves. But they are making a conscious decision not to
:08:42. > :08:52.do that. One of the strategies of the regime is to instigate a
:08:52. > :08:53.
:08:53. > :08:58.violent attack on the security forces. You have dismissed the
:08:58. > :09:03.notion that extremists and savage showers with help from the outside
:09:03. > :09:13.are at the heart of the movement. But this is what you wrote in
:09:13. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:25.September. You said that the response of the regime at towards
:09:25. > :09:35.the movement were likely to push people towards extremism. That is
:09:35. > :09:40.what you wrote. Yes, but some -- things change. This revolution is a
:09:40. > :09:50.continuation of the Arabs spring. We were surprised at how quickly
:09:50. > :09:51.
:09:51. > :10:01.the youth of Syria responded to the movement. They decided to follow
:10:01. > :10:02.
:10:02. > :10:06.the peaceful model. Even the Muslim Brotherhood have embraced and
:10:06. > :10:12.emphasise the peaceful nature of this revolution. In Syria it is
:10:12. > :10:17.important to remind people there were at clashes between the Muslim
:10:17. > :10:26.Brotherhood and the regime in the 1980s. Because the Muslim
:10:27. > :10:36.Brotherhood carried out violence that enabled the regime to carry
:10:36. > :10:42.out violent reprisals. So the Muslim Brotherhood and more
:10:42. > :10:46.extremist Islamic figures are not significant players? None of the
:10:46. > :10:52.traditional political parties are very active. This is a movement
:10:52. > :10:56.made up of young people here are not politicised. They are a product
:10:56. > :11:04.of social media. They watched what happened in other countries and
:11:04. > :11:09.decided to take things into their own hands. You are outside and
:11:09. > :11:17.these people you cannot -- characterise as the heart of the
:11:17. > :11:27.movement are inside. Just a few days ago you were involved in a
:11:27. > :11:28.
:11:28. > :11:34.meeting of dissidents and exiles of the regime in Turkey. When you put
:11:34. > :11:40.together a council at 31 and talked about this being a forum for
:11:40. > :11:47.national opposition how it that can be credible because you, for
:11:47. > :11:55.example, a well-established in the United States and not well known in
:11:55. > :12:02.Syria? All of us are in touch with colleagues inside. Before we did
:12:02. > :12:07.that meeting we did some coordination. We did not want to
:12:07. > :12:12.claim we carried the revolution because the inside is not ready. We
:12:12. > :12:17.want the people who are leading activities on the ground to form
:12:17. > :12:26.their own representative body. Once they do that we can talk to them
:12:26. > :12:34.and form something more represented will -- representative. That is
:12:34. > :12:38.part of the problem. The difference between in Europe. -- Egypt. In
:12:38. > :12:47.Egypt it was relatively easy for people to gather together in the
:12:47. > :12:54.open. That is not possibility -- possible in Syria. In Syria
:12:54. > :12:57.political opposition is not allowed. There is a law that makes
:12:57. > :13:03.membership of the Muslim Brotherhood punishable by death so
:13:03. > :13:10.you have to find ways to be able to be active and continue to survive.
:13:10. > :13:17.We took good vintage -- advantage of new media so there is contact
:13:17. > :13:23.between the outside and inside. not entirely convinced by new media
:13:23. > :13:30.being responsible for everything. The numbers of people who have come
:13:30. > :13:36.out on the streets in Syria have numbered in the thousands, possibly
:13:36. > :13:41.close to 10,000. But think about other countries where they were
:13:41. > :13:51.hundreds of thousands of people on the streets. A fundamentally
:13:51. > :13:52.
:13:52. > :14:01.different sort of public protest. The reason is as people try to get
:14:01. > :14:07.out, they am met by snipers. In Egypt, they were allowed opposition,
:14:07. > :14:12.they were allowed independent media. None of that exists in Syria.
:14:12. > :14:16.By it we are talking about Damascus being the most important political
:14:16. > :14:20.centre in the country. We have not seen demonstrations, only
:14:20. > :14:25.occasionally in the suburbs. Frankly, the capital of Syria has
:14:25. > :14:30.been free of the sort of political protest you want to see. That is
:14:30. > :14:38.not accurate. We have seen a substantial demonstrations in the
:14:38. > :14:44.walled town of Damascus. Damascus is two provinces. The city and the
:14:44. > :14:48.suburbs. Inside the town it is happening now. Each demonstrator is
:14:48. > :14:55.the equivalent to 10,000 in the other cases because in the other
:14:55. > :14:59.cases, they were not allowed to demonstrate. Only if you tried to
:14:59. > :15:06.instigate the security forces you would be met with violence. Take
:15:06. > :15:11.Egypt, the whole revolution, I mean only 300 or so in the beginning and
:15:11. > :15:16.later 800 were killed. In Syria, over 1,000 have been killed and we
:15:16. > :15:21.have the names of those. The dynamics are different. Why are we
:15:21. > :15:26.seeing no signs of the President Assad regime splintering? We saw
:15:26. > :15:33.officials distancing themselves in Tunisia and Egypt and it is not
:15:33. > :15:41.happening in Syria. This is likely to happen in an advanced stage. We
:15:41. > :15:45.encouraged that very much and we always appeal because we believe
:15:45. > :15:48.there are patriotic people within the regime will will not approve of
:15:48. > :15:55.the brutality carried out, particularly by the security forces.
:15:55. > :15:59.One of those in the military. At one point, the military must make a
:15:59. > :16:09.decision. Will they want to side with the President who will go down
:16:09. > :16:10.
:16:10. > :16:16.Ed is carrying out the last stage or will they -- support of the
:16:16. > :16:22.Democratic side of Syria? But when one compares it with Egypt, you
:16:22. > :16:25.have called for the President to go and do called for the vice-
:16:25. > :16:31.president to take power for the transitional phase before a
:16:32. > :16:36.democratic process can be organised. But will that the reality. The
:16:36. > :16:45.vice-president carries no real weight at all. We all know the
:16:45. > :16:49.power lays with President Assad and his family. The fact is, there is
:16:49. > :16:53.no a transitional authority that would have credibility. It is more
:16:53. > :16:57.challenging, you are right. But there some institutions in Syria
:16:57. > :17:02.that could play a role in the transitional period. One of those
:17:02. > :17:05.is the army and the other is the government. There is something
:17:05. > :17:10.called a cabinet and the Prime Minister and the People's Council.
:17:10. > :17:13.While they are not representative and they act like rappers -- a
:17:13. > :17:18.rubber-stamp to the President's decisions but if they decide to,
:17:19. > :17:22.they could play a role. It seems to be a pretty desperate statement for
:17:23. > :17:26.a significant player in the opposition to say he wants the army
:17:26. > :17:35.takeover given it is the same army accused of causing the deaths of
:17:35. > :17:41.over 1,000 people? We believe the main pressure on the regime other
:17:41. > :17:45.demonstrations. They will play the major role in overthrowing the
:17:45. > :17:49.regime. What we want to do is make the transition as peaceful as
:17:49. > :17:54.possible. So we are opening the way for other institutions and people
:17:54. > :18:00.to join the rebels. You are in London and you are brought -- you
:18:00. > :18:04.are lobbying politicians, including some in Moscow, to put more
:18:05. > :18:08.pressure on Damascus and the President. Are you disappointed
:18:08. > :18:15.with the international reaction? That we be positive. I want you to
:18:15. > :18:23.be honest. The statement by the French Prime Minister of the day
:18:23. > :18:27.before yesterday, one of the things we expect is to isolate them
:18:27. > :18:32.diplomatically. We want a referral from the Security Council to the
:18:32. > :18:37.ICC. We have not got a Matt. have not even got a new Security
:18:37. > :18:42.Council resolution. The draft is sitting there and it seemed clear
:18:42. > :18:47.that Moscow is intent on blocking it using the veto if necessary.
:18:47. > :18:56.we want to everything possible to talk to them, get the information
:18:56. > :19:03.to them and tell them it is in your interest to finally signed over to
:19:03. > :19:07.the people. But it would only be of symbolic value anyway. They are
:19:07. > :19:12.talking about condemnation of the violence they have seen and are
:19:12. > :19:16.clearly gaining the authorities and demanding immediate cessation. They
:19:16. > :19:21.want humanitarian authorities to be allowed in. All of that is good but
:19:21. > :19:24.it will not actually address the fundamental problem you have which
:19:24. > :19:27.is the President Assad regime is still strong and intent on staying
:19:28. > :19:32.in power and the international community is not prepared to do
:19:32. > :19:38.anything about it, unlike in Libya. But what we want to say is the
:19:38. > :19:44.regime has been isolated already. There are sanctions in place.
:19:44. > :19:49.they are symbolic sanctions but will not bring the regime down.
:19:49. > :19:52.people of Syria will bring the regime down. This is important. We
:19:52. > :19:56.do not expect to the international community to do it on our behalf
:19:57. > :20:00.but we want them to take on responsibilities. In the case of
:20:00. > :20:05.Libya, those countries took an early response and I believe if
:20:05. > :20:11.they do take these actions now, that may prevent further killing
:20:11. > :20:17.and further repression, this significance of the effort rather
:20:17. > :20:23.than believing that these motions will bring down the regime. But is
:20:23. > :20:27.it not true that Tony Blair put it plainly himself just hours ago,
:20:27. > :20:31.that the cautious international response to the Syria situation is
:20:31. > :20:40.based on a profound fear of what would come after her President
:20:40. > :20:47.Assad? They say if they are sad regime -- they say if the present
:20:47. > :20:57.Assad regime collapses, it would be difficult to figure out what would
:20:57. > :20:58.
:20:58. > :21:03.ensue? We are trying to tell the world we have a plan and strategy.
:21:04. > :21:10.We know what the reality is in Syria and we see a community that
:21:10. > :21:13.frankly could fall into secretarian -- strife. We look at neighbouring
:21:13. > :21:17.countries like Iraq and we see Syria as a typical place in the
:21:17. > :21:25.Middle East where there is a profound danger of a spiral into
:21:25. > :21:29.chaos. But in the 11th week we have not seen any sign of
:21:29. > :21:36.demonstrators... We have seen demonstrators emphasising national
:21:37. > :21:46.unity. The first individual victims were Christians. It started in the
:21:47. > :21:47.
:21:47. > :21:51.areas closest to these areas. We believe the events of their 80s...
:21:51. > :21:59.But there is deep concern in Washington in the EU and deep
:21:59. > :22:05.concern in Israel. A respected former peace negotiated for the
:22:05. > :22:10.Israelis says in foreign policy magazines that is where he's aware
:22:10. > :22:15.of the alternatives in Damascus and in discussions, they have been
:22:15. > :22:20.rooting for the Devil. That is their position but we want to say
:22:20. > :22:24.that what will emerge is a non- Devil, a democratic system, that is
:22:24. > :22:29.more representative of Syria, more responsible regional,
:22:29. > :22:35.internationally and that is why it is in everybody's interest to
:22:35. > :22:41.support this alternative. My second point is we are working to create
:22:41. > :22:44.structures. We are talking about Syrians everywhere, civic
:22:44. > :22:51.communities everywhere, coming together in a way I have never seen
:22:51. > :22:53.before. All components of Syrian society. In this state, they are
:22:53. > :22:58.carrying out a weekly demonstrations, collecting money to
:22:58. > :23:02.help. They are all united and this is what makes us believe it will
:23:02. > :23:07.happen. We are part of the whole plan in the Middle East to make it
:23:07. > :23:11.a more democratic region. So we are very hopeful. I feel the positivity
:23:11. > :23:18.but do you really believe it would -- you will win and bring President
:23:18. > :23:23.Assad down? Absolutely. In no time in my life and the young people of
:23:23. > :23:28.Syria, we talk to them, they are more optimistic. But we have seen
:23:28. > :23:33.big moments before in Syria, not least around their 80s, which ended
:23:33. > :23:39.in terrible bloodshed and paying for so many Syrians. We then saw
:23:39. > :23:45.the Damascus Spring and we saw the declaration in fife mac and the
:23:45. > :23:49.hope that they meet -- that may lead to fundamental reform.
:23:49. > :23:54.weakness with the Damascus situation, they did not have mass
:23:54. > :23:59.support at the time. It was more intellectual. Now it is the young
:23:59. > :24:04.people in the street who are under the age of 20 and are about 60% of
:24:04. > :24:07.the Syrian population who are taking to the streets. They are