:00:04. > :00:14.International. Giggs recently took an injunction to stop an affair
:00:14. > :00:19.becoming public. It is time for a hard top. Yes Silvio Berlusconi
:00:19. > :00:29.losing his political grip? His candidates took a hammering in the
:00:29. > :00:38.
:00:38. > :00:41.municipal election in the closing. My guest today, Emma Bonino, is a
:00:41. > :00:43.long time radical opponent of Berlusconi and currently vice-
:00:43. > :00:53.president of the Italian Senate. Are conservative Italians,
:00:53. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:18.especially the men, ready to embrace fundamental change? Emma
:01:18. > :01:21.Bonino, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.
:01:21. > :01:24.Do you think the centre-left in Italy is getting a bit over-excited
:01:24. > :01:27.about the political trouble that Berlusconi is in? He said what is
:01:27. > :01:35.happening is tantamount to a divorce between Berlusconi and his
:01:35. > :01:38.people. What is clear to me is that many
:01:38. > :01:48.people voted for Berlusconi and they are not following his advice
:01:48. > :01:54.
:01:54. > :01:57.any more. This is clear. That this means that that is a total divorce,
:01:57. > :02:06.I think that is too early to say. People voted and went to the
:02:06. > :02:10.referendum were not voting for the left. They are simply for the
:02:10. > :02:12.moment saying, "Look, it is enough. We are looking for things but you
:02:12. > :02:15.are not delivering. There is paralysis in Italy, so do
:02:15. > :02:25.something." I think they may not necessarily vote for the opposition
:02:25. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:43.next time, it is only a warning. He is pretty much the most resilient
:02:43. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:49.and indestructible political leader in Europe. In Europe nowadays,
:02:49. > :02:53.maybe yes. I thought you were comparing other leaders in Italy.
:02:53. > :02:56.No, I am looking around Europe in the last decade and looking at all
:02:56. > :03:00.the slings and arrows that have been thrown his way. All the things
:03:00. > :03:03.that he has had to deal with - he has come through. He is a fighter,
:03:03. > :03:09.we should recognise it. We were not right in
:03:09. > :03:19.underestimating his capacity of resilience and being a fighter. He
:03:19. > :03:20.
:03:20. > :03:30.is an owner of the TVs. Also the public TV system. He can address
:03:30. > :03:34.
:03:34. > :03:42.people and say what he wants. It is a contradiction in some ways. That
:03:42. > :03:45.also means he is not able to run a country. He is a fighter but he
:03:45. > :03:49.does not have the patience and the stubbornness to run a country, to
:03:49. > :03:52.go for reform. He is very good at campaigning, he is not good at
:03:52. > :03:54.running the policy. You say Berlusconi is not good at running
:03:54. > :03:56.the country. Many Italians would say that would
:03:56. > :04:06.go for the leftist opposition as well.
:04:06. > :04:16.I think that Berlusconi is much more the system than a code. It is
:04:16. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:29.systemic. That is my analysis and the analysis of the Radical Party.
:04:29. > :04:32.We have said over and over again that the crisis in Italy goes back
:04:32. > :04:35.by 10 or 20 or 30 years. The politics after the major scandal,
:04:35. > :04:37.it means the democracy in the institutions where nothing will bow
:04:37. > :04:47.down. You should know. You were part of
:04:47. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:51.the system. You are a long time leader. The Radical Party does not
:04:51. > :04:59.get many more votes. You have been part of the system that has
:04:59. > :05:05.fundamentally failed the Italian people.
:05:05. > :05:08.Our ambition, and when I joined the Cabinet, I was not very welcome. It
:05:08. > :05:14.was in the hope to change the institution and to put my country
:05:14. > :05:24.back to a sort of new respect in the rule of law. And we failed. We
:05:24. > :05:24.
:05:24. > :05:34.failed and we got to suicide. I think that he knows we were pushed
:05:34. > :05:38.
:05:38. > :05:41.to an election not only by the opposition of that time. The
:05:41. > :05:44.problem today is that even if people are fed up with the status
:05:44. > :05:51.quo, and maybe that means Mr Berlusconi, they see few
:05:51. > :06:00.alternatives in mainstream politics. They are right. One of the issues
:06:00. > :06:02.is that it does not exist in my country. There is not a single
:06:02. > :06:05.piece of legislation which is implemented, particularly by people
:06:05. > :06:08.in power. The electoral process, the justice system, really, I think
:06:08. > :06:16.this is where we have to start. People are really hopinh that we
:06:16. > :06:19.start again in constructing a sort of democratic country. That is a
:06:19. > :06:29.point about the process. Where are the next generation of effective
:06:29. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:33.Italian leaders? You have been around a long time. I am not young.
:06:33. > :06:43.You are not the youngest politician and there are not many young
:06:43. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:47.politicians in Italy that you can look to. I think the system does
:06:47. > :06:57.not allow newcomers very easily. Our system is not inclusive of
:06:57. > :07:01.
:07:01. > :07:11.newcomers. This is an oligarch system which is very closed.
:07:11. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:28.Everybody is calling for change and so on. From Monday to Friday, when
:07:28. > :07:33.they get serious, they are not very open.
:07:33. > :07:43.You talk about the gender issue. Only 46% of women are in the
:07:43. > :07:45.
:07:45. > :07:55.workforce. Women are in the Italian welfare. They take care of its
:07:55. > :07:59.
:07:59. > :08:02.children, old people, sick people. There is no social structure.
:08:02. > :08:12.were trying to change this three or four decades ago. You were
:08:12. > :08:14.
:08:14. > :08:17.attacking the church on divorce. You won some victories. It looked
:08:17. > :08:20.like back then that it was changing. Here we are in 2011 and nothing has
:08:20. > :08:23.changed much at all. Italian women are as brilliant as their
:08:23. > :08:27.colleagues in Spain and France and others but the first priority for
:08:27. > :08:31.women is to be a mother and then to be a wife and then possibly also to
:08:31. > :08:41.be a lover and then possibly to have some spare time to go out to
:08:41. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:54.work. Again, the Italian welfare means that it is done by the women.
:08:54. > :09:04.Here is one of the most amazing statistics I have read. 95% of
:09:04. > :09:06.
:09:06. > :09:11.Italian men say they have never ever operated a washing machine.
:09:11. > :09:14.How do we change that? First of all, women should change how they raise
:09:14. > :09:17.their sons. Sometimes, we are the worst enemies of ourselves. If we
:09:17. > :09:26.really allow women to access the labour market, I think we can
:09:26. > :09:36.change. The question is, no-one has an interest to change this except
:09:36. > :09:59.
:09:59. > :10:02.the women. 65% of the population does. We are still trying now.
:10:02. > :10:05.Believe me, it is very difficult. In the '80s, the feminist movement
:10:05. > :10:13.was stopped by the traditional party and became quiet. Let us get
:10:13. > :10:21.back to the referendum. You have been an active opponent of nuclear
:10:22. > :10:25.power in Italy. You must be delighted that the referendum blew
:10:25. > :10:31.away any prospect of nuclear power in Italy for a long time to come.
:10:31. > :10:35.The question is, so what? What are you going to do now? The plan was
:10:35. > :10:38.to have 25% of power coming from nuclear. No, it was 25% of
:10:38. > :10:41.electricity. That is about 40% of the total use of energy. We have
:10:41. > :10:45.been doing OK without nuclear for now. That is not the major problem.
:10:45. > :10:48.I know how you managed to deliver. You became the biggest importer of
:10:48. > :10:58.energy. 85% of your energy is important. You are so reliant on
:10:58. > :10:58.
:10:58. > :11:01.gas. Gas is not only used for electricity, it is used for many
:11:01. > :11:11.things. I understand that. But the overall situation in Italy is not
:11:11. > :11:11.
:11:11. > :11:14.sustainable right now. Thanks to your nuclear decision, you do not
:11:14. > :11:17.have a long-term, sustainable energy policy. It is ten years
:11:17. > :11:22.ahead. The fact is, we don't have a policy, we have nothing. We don't
:11:22. > :11:25.have an energy policy. I do not think, by going nuclear, $30
:11:25. > :11:35.billion the state does not have, the cost and effects, it is not a
:11:35. > :11:51.
:11:51. > :11:54.sound economy. Many disagree. damaging to the Italian economy.
:11:54. > :11:57.There is a fundamental structural rigidity to your labour market, to
:11:57. > :12:07.democracy, to regulation, which means it is one of the worst places
:12:07. > :12:12.
:12:12. > :12:15.in the world to do business. No-one has the courage. In the short-term,
:12:15. > :12:18.there are major political costs. If you reformed the labour markets and
:12:18. > :12:22.you opened up, maybe in the short- term, you have some political costs
:12:22. > :12:29.and that is one of the reasons it has not been done by the left or
:12:29. > :12:31.right. It did not deliver. He resumed power in 2001 for five
:12:32. > :12:34.years and no reforms, no liberalisation to be seen. Maybe it
:12:34. > :12:37.is too easy to blame the politicians. Maybe it is something
:12:37. > :12:40.about the Italian public. You are very conservative. I do not think
:12:40. > :12:43.so. People and public opinion, they are reacting to the message they
:12:44. > :12:47.receive. Maybe they do not like change very much. In this time of
:12:47. > :12:50.economic crisis, the threats and fears are there so they are calling
:12:50. > :13:00.for protection. That is the easiest way to go. No-one is willing or
:13:00. > :13:08.
:13:08. > :13:12.able to risk to lose the election to say the simple truths to people.
:13:12. > :13:22.The system is not only not democratic, but on top of that, it
:13:22. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:34.is not sustainable. If only politicians would present this
:13:34. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:59.truth, they would vote for it. But you have tried to do this and they
:13:59. > :14:14.
:14:15. > :14:24.have not voted for you. You did very badly. Let us get to the heart
:14:25. > :14:26.
:14:26. > :14:29.of what I see is the problem for you in Italy. You work in a
:14:29. > :14:32.democratic system, but democracy delivers things in Italy that you
:14:32. > :14:35.do not like and if you think now about the immigration issue and the
:14:35. > :14:42.Italians' view of foreigners, you are swimming against the tide of
:14:42. > :14:52.public opinion. I challenge your analysis. I don't think my country
:14:52. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :15:03.is a democratic system any more and it has not been for a long time.
:15:03. > :15:13.Democracy means the separation of power. It means the checks and
:15:13. > :15:21.
:15:21. > :15:28.balances. It means the rule of law. Also debate as well. This
:15:28. > :15:31.Are you suggesting to me that when opinion polls, consistently, show
:15:31. > :15:34.between 60% and 80% of Italians being fearful of the impact of
:15:34. > :15:38.immigration and believe there are too many immigrants in their
:15:38. > :15:41.country, are you telling me that does not reflect the feeling of the
:15:42. > :15:48.country? It does, at this stage. There is no possibility of a real
:15:48. > :15:50.debate and telling people the other side of the immigration. The
:15:50. > :16:00.government said Italy needs at least 250,000 more emigrants over
:16:00. > :16:07.
:16:07. > :16:11.the next few years. With respect, I think that message has gone out to
:16:11. > :16:17.the people. They have a falling population and have to find new,
:16:17. > :16:24.young workers. Are you being a bit patronising suggesting maybe if
:16:24. > :16:33.Italians were given more information, they would suddenly...
:16:33. > :16:36.Maybe there would be the real debate about what democracy means.
:16:36. > :16:46.The latest figures from Milan suggest that 208,000 people are
:16:46. > :16:52.
:16:52. > :16:58.immigrants. It is a fact of reality. If we start accepting the reality,
:16:58. > :17:01.then we can have a policy of integration. If the message is,
:17:02. > :17:11.everyone out, we will keep everyone out, the major debate of having
:17:12. > :17:19.
:17:19. > :17:29.300,000 people, etc... The debate about whether there should be a
:17:29. > :17:40.
:17:40. > :17:43.mosque in Milan. Why not? They were campaigning. You are building an
:17:43. > :17:50.argument that suggests to me that there is something specific about
:17:50. > :17:52.Italy. Look around you, you have written up a report about
:17:52. > :18:02.discrimination across Europe, it was stopped from the Netherlands to
:18:02. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:19.Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Hungary - the far right are on the rise.
:18:19. > :18:27.
:18:27. > :18:31.responsibility is to counter arguments, populist slogans. You
:18:31. > :18:35.are totally right. It cannot just be to do with the Italian media and
:18:35. > :18:38.the lack of debate. It is a debate across Europe and Europeans are
:18:38. > :18:42.saying they haves had enough. think they are right to be worried
:18:42. > :18:45.about the impact but nevertheless, can we gather the courage to say
:18:45. > :18:55.that maybe you don't like the situation but the question is that
:18:55. > :19:06.
:19:06. > :19:12.we are ageing, becoming less and less and getting older. Diversity
:19:13. > :19:22.is our destiny. At the moment, you cannot win elections with that
:19:23. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:47.message. There is a tougher line on immigration. But if you do not
:19:47. > :19:50.start with other of points of view, you can't win. You know that when
:19:51. > :19:54.Italy recently gave a whole host of temporary residents permits, you
:19:54. > :20:04.know that those people tried to get into France because they are
:20:04. > :20:10.
:20:10. > :20:20.Tunisian and the French blocked them. It has a lot to do with the
:20:20. > :20:33.
:20:33. > :20:36.way that Europe coordinates its policies. The temporary protection
:20:37. > :20:40.was to facilitate them to go to france. You see my point. What we
:20:40. > :20:45.have now is a Europe that is fragmenting and looking after its
:20:45. > :20:53.own interests on a nation by nation basis. You must find this very
:20:53. > :21:02.troubling. It is a really big few years' time. And just for fear
:21:02. > :21:09.of 25,000 Tunisians? In a previous crisis we received 75,000 with no
:21:10. > :21:15.major crisis. It is not just about 25,000. Imagine how many more will
:21:16. > :21:24.come, it has been said. So we are going to bomb them in the
:21:25. > :21:32.Mediterranean or what? In the north Mediterranean, we are in need of
:21:33. > :21:42.people. There is a policy there, not simply bombing Schengen because
:21:43. > :21:57.
:21:57. > :22:01.that is the result. People don't realise we don't have other options.
:22:01. > :22:08.We will revitalise it with a sort of vision. You say that but in
:22:08. > :22:10.Italy, all sorts of agreements. Aren't you really confident that
:22:10. > :22:16.Aren't you really confident that when we discuss the euro, for
:22:17. > :22:26.example, it is capable of strengthening institutions? I tell
:22:27. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:46.my people, imagine if we are not in the Eurozone. The Germans might
:22:46. > :22:49.want to imagine. But not Italians. That is the point. You, as a long-
:22:49. > :22:52.time supporter of the federalist principle, are in trouble right now.
:22:52. > :22:55.Europe is not going in your direction. The question of Europe
:22:55. > :22:58.has never been federalist, the United States of Europe. Our
:22:58. > :23:03.weakness is much more political than simply financial. If you take
:23:03. > :23:09.California, they are not under political threat. That is arguable.
:23:10. > :23:13.We do not have time for that. Italy, at the beginning of the European
:23:13. > :23:23.Union, was a very important player. These days, it does not feel that
:23:23. > :23:27.
:23:27. > :23:30.way. Do you see any possibility of regaining a leadership role? Italy
:23:31. > :23:40.is a symptom of a crisis in a liberal democracy and democracy in
:23:41. > :23:49.
:23:49. > :23:53.general. A crisis of liberal democracy. If you are talking
:23:53. > :23:57.symptoms, is this an illness that will get worse or better? If we do
:23:57. > :23:59.not do nothing, it will get worse. I am hopeful that with
:23:59. > :24:04.determination and vision and calling on people, people in my
:24:04. > :24:07.country react. The real point is that in my country, what is