:00:04. > :00:13.was apparently fake about child labour.
:00:13. > :00:18.Time now for HARDtalk. Karl Marx may have told workers
:00:18. > :00:23.they had nothing to lose but their chains but in 2011 the message from
:00:23. > :00:28.the front line of the international union movement is Prius. Global
:00:28. > :00:32.recession has quickened what appears to be a long-term decline
:00:32. > :00:39.in union movement and now unions have a battle on their hands with
:00:39. > :00:46.governments desperate to cut back public spending. My guest today is
:00:46. > :00:53.a Sharan Burrow, the General Secretary of the International
:00:53. > :00:59.Trade Union Confederation. Well the 20th -- I unions in the business of
:00:59. > :01:09.managing decline or will the challenges of the 21st century make
:01:09. > :01:12.
:01:13. > :01:20.the movement more relevant than ever?
:01:20. > :01:26.Sharon mac, welcome to HARDtalk. Why part unions in decline? We're
:01:27. > :01:33.not in decline everywhere. We have the core business of recruiting
:01:33. > :01:40.workers, that is a central pursue its -- purpose, to represent
:01:40. > :01:46.workers. I took this job because we have a global struggle on our hands.
:01:46. > :01:52.The economy is not working for working people. It has trebled in
:01:52. > :02:01.size over past decades but we saw inequity before the global
:02:01. > :02:11.financial crisis. Labour mobility became Labour enslavement in places
:02:11. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:21.like UHT -- UAE. We know that a move to put decent work in place in
:02:21. > :02:22.
:02:22. > :02:30.democracies - and that is what is spreading across North Africa -- -
:02:30. > :02:38.union membership all over the developed world is going down all
:02:38. > :02:45.over the world. That is not correct. In Australia
:02:45. > :02:49.union membership has gone up after we experienced a decline. Come to
:02:49. > :02:55.any country with me and see that unions are at the heart of whatever
:02:55. > :02:58.is going on in the world of work, standing up for democracy and
:02:59. > :03:08.dignity and the rights of people to a decent life. The global economy
:03:09. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:16.is not working for anyone. It may surprise you but the richest
:03:16. > :03:24.billion or 2 billion people in the world and the poorest, the gap has
:03:24. > :03:34.increased. That is not acceptable. These things have to be undone.
:03:34. > :03:37.
:03:38. > :03:46.Banker bashing is one done but how you make yourself small relevant?
:03:46. > :03:51.Working people are feeling angry about stimulus payments. There was
:03:51. > :04:01.at no time and understanding that that would largely bailout banks
:04:01. > :04:07.
:04:07. > :04:14.and not save jobs. We did save some jobs but in France and other places,
:04:14. > :04:20.those governments know that unrest will continue to grow if we do not
:04:20. > :04:30.seek job growth and youth unemployment tackled. But G20 did
:04:30. > :04:30.
:04:30. > :04:40.not mention jobs. That is not true. In Pittsburgh and London we talked
:04:40. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:48.about jobs. I am talking about Paris. From -- Nicolas Sarkozy has
:04:48. > :04:58.said that there are three priorities. Jobs. Workers' rights.
:04:58. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:04.Also the mechanism that drive the economy, like a minimum wage.
:05:04. > :05:10.economies have followed your prescription and have gone for a
:05:10. > :05:16.large stimulus package, like the US. It has not seen the large jobs
:05:16. > :05:23.creation of that Barack Obama and others wish for. It looks like a
:05:23. > :05:29.jobless economy. We'd talked to the economists in the US and may have
:05:29. > :05:37.differing views. They would say that too much went to bailing out
:05:37. > :05:42.banks and not enough to jobs. But jobs were saved. If you do not
:05:43. > :05:50.invest in jobs you'll not see sustainable growth. We say to the
:05:50. > :06:00.G20 leaders that we want to see jobs protection at the heart of
:06:00. > :06:10.economic policy. If you do not have that you're not sustain any type of
:06:10. > :06:18.fiscal recovery. You are seeing many young people entering the
:06:18. > :06:22.workforce which cannot accommodate them. Looking at how you do that,
:06:23. > :06:27.coming back to the policy divide, because you take a government by
:06:27. > :06:33.the UK that has gone against the stimulus idea and has prioritised
:06:33. > :06:42.reducing the deficit, they say it is the private sector you must look
:06:43. > :06:52.to to provide productive jobs. Unemployment is going down.
:06:52. > :06:58.Employment is going up. economic outlook is very sluggish
:06:58. > :07:01.and will not accommodate those jobs. We think the British Government has
:07:01. > :07:07.got it absolutely wrong and the misery it is starting to cause for
:07:07. > :07:14.the poorest people - who rely on services - is the extraordinary.
:07:14. > :07:24.But unemployment is going down. When we see youth unemployment
:07:24. > :07:24.
:07:24. > :07:34.figures going down... Youth unemployment is now below what it
:07:34. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:46.was at the time of the election. is at 20s -- 20%. What will you say
:07:46. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:57.to parents? But it is going down. Look at the OECD figures and the
:07:57. > :08:00.
:08:00. > :08:08.IMF figures. The Director General of the OECD said that economics
:08:08. > :08:12.must change. People living in Bulgaria on $2 pensions. You tell
:08:12. > :08:20.me this is working for working people and I would take you to
:08:20. > :08:25.Greece. Two nurses to have worked all of their lives and are seeing
:08:25. > :08:35.their pensions cut. They know who is getting off scot-free. It is
:08:35. > :08:39.
:08:39. > :08:43.bankers. Growth globally is not nearly enough. In many of the
:08:43. > :08:46.developed economies the majority of your members are in the public
:08:46. > :08:52.sector and the governments in question up - the Government's
:08:52. > :08:59.fighting to keep their deficits under control - would say they are
:08:59. > :09:05.facing a vested interest. Private sector workers have seen their pay
:09:05. > :09:09.come down or frozen and a scene there pension benefits come down.
:09:09. > :09:16.It is public sector employees you're sitting on privileges that
:09:16. > :09:25.they can no longer enjoy. If we had a lot of time we could unpacked
:09:25. > :09:32.that orthodox. Their private sector workers who are doing very well
:09:32. > :09:38.with our assistance. There is a low-paid workforce who are not and
:09:38. > :09:46.the message for that his social protection. What you mean by that?
:09:46. > :09:56.75% of people have no social protection, no child protection. No
:09:56. > :09:57.
:09:57. > :10:05.welfare, note guarantee of work. This is an imbalance that is about
:10:05. > :10:13.demand. Unless the G20 manages a coherent plan for social protection
:10:13. > :10:17.and job growth then those global imbalances remain and that
:10:17. > :10:22.threatens every economy. If you want to talk about the private
:10:22. > :10:32.sector, they are lacking in responsibility. Take a major
:10:32. > :10:34.
:10:34. > :10:41.campaign. Telstra. Eight could company in Germany but they are
:10:41. > :10:46.denying workers in the US the right to organise. These are corporate
:10:46. > :10:56.citizens in Europe who say they are good companies. We do not accept
:10:56. > :10:58.
:10:58. > :11:03.that. But they have to compete against companies where others are
:11:03. > :11:07.undercutting them. If you do not have fundamental rights at work,
:11:08. > :11:17.where people are treated with dignity and can be sure of a
:11:18. > :11:21.
:11:21. > :11:25.minimum wage and collective bargaining rights... If you have
:11:25. > :11:35.such gross inequality everywhere because you do not have union
:11:35. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:44.rights to collective bargaining - like in the US with the telecom
:11:44. > :11:49.company is denying there workers that right... But we have to look
:11:49. > :11:54.at the reality. We started talking about decline. Collective
:11:55. > :12:02.bargaining rights are declining. That is the struggle we will take
:12:02. > :12:12.gone. Corporate companies, one by one if necessary. You have to be
:12:12. > :12:14.
:12:14. > :12:21.inspired by the people in the Arab world with their revolutions. A
:12:21. > :12:31.finest - finance minister says, if an economy is not working for jobs
:12:31. > :12:32.
:12:32. > :12:39.and social protection, the economy is not working. Unless governments
:12:39. > :12:47.changed the model of Economics, unless they Leeson -- listen to the
:12:47. > :12:53.leadership of the IMF that say that unemployment is a large driver of
:12:53. > :13:02.vulnerability, we are rolling for a rough ride. No-one would disagree
:13:02. > :13:08.with those overall objectives, it is how to get there. A quote -
:13:08. > :13:16.unions have a tendency to sacrifice future generations to current
:13:16. > :13:26.generations since only the current generation is voting. Governments
:13:26. > :13:43.
:13:44. > :13:48.can no longer borrow their way into But is less than the Bank has got
:13:48. > :13:55.from the bail-outs over the last few years. A couple of percentage
:13:55. > :14:00.points of GDP would provide the social protection. The
:14:00. > :14:08.prescriptions are absolutely there. The green economy is something
:14:08. > :14:12.everyone is signed up to. But we are talking about sovereign
:14:13. > :14:21.national debt and that his Government's saying they do not
:14:21. > :14:30.have the money to pay public sector union members the kind of pay and
:14:30. > :14:34.pensions they are talking about. In Greece there is a law against
:14:34. > :14:40.sacking government workers purely on the basis of poor performance
:14:40. > :14:44.for some employers want to be able to hire and fire at will. Today you
:14:44. > :14:50.are making work, tomorrow you are not because we don't like the cover
:14:50. > :14:59.of your hair. But you can manage performance. No question about that.
:14:59. > :15:04.I manage a business myself. I know had to do that. Sovereign debt. In
:15:04. > :15:10.Greece, look at the OECD figures. If everyone in Greece paid their
:15:10. > :15:16.taxes that country would have 30 billion more in their coffers. They
:15:16. > :15:21.would not have sovereign debt. Is it better to make that reform
:15:21. > :15:24.through growth in jobs where you can sustain the future or to cut
:15:24. > :15:31.the economy so that future generations will never have a
:15:31. > :15:41.chance to get a job. These problems can't be solved by
:15:41. > :15:48.collecting taxes. The OECD has said the debt level is expected to rise
:15:48. > :15:52.to 120 % of GDP by 2014. That is unsustainable. I am agreeing with
:15:52. > :16:02.you that I have been part of a movement that helped to restructure
:16:02. > :16:03.
:16:03. > :16:08.the Australian economy. And look at itself. It has some vulnerabilities,
:16:08. > :16:15.but it is one of the most sustainable economies in the globe.
:16:15. > :16:20.What is a better recipe for what our children? Why is it that
:16:20. > :16:25.governments will not stand up to the bond markets. It is not
:16:25. > :16:30.governments making these decisions, it is the bond agencies engaging in
:16:30. > :16:35.speculative behaviour will wither interest rate swaps and the like.
:16:35. > :16:40.It looks like derivatives at the heart of the financial crisis.
:16:40. > :16:44.is very convenient to make the financial sector the villain. I am
:16:44. > :16:49.not going to sit here and defend them. On but it is not acceptable
:16:49. > :16:55.to say that that is the whole of the problem. The fact is, taxpayers
:16:55. > :17:00.are bedding out the banks and it looks as if they will have to bail
:17:00. > :17:03.out some of the privileged public sector jobs. You mention Australia
:17:03. > :17:09.and sustainable economic performance. But some would say
:17:09. > :17:13.that is on the back of natural resources going to China. That is
:17:13. > :17:19.driving Australian economic performance. Are you satisfied with
:17:19. > :17:24.the Union performance in China? First of all let me go back to your
:17:24. > :17:29.point. I don't except for a minute that public sector workers are
:17:29. > :17:33.privileged workers. Would you really want a society we do not
:17:33. > :17:39.have teachers or nurses. Where they can live with dignity and get
:17:40. > :17:44.decent pensions. I think you and I are actually agreeing. While the
:17:44. > :17:50.bank is do not carry full responsibility, their speculative
:17:50. > :18:00.activity brought us to the brink. They were 40% of investment in the
:18:00. > :18:06.
:18:06. > :18:13.real economy. The real economy 60%. that's not what governments were
:18:13. > :18:18.elected to do. They stand up to the bond markets and saying: We will
:18:18. > :18:28.deal with our financial issues leveraged of growth that comes from
:18:28. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:33.employment that gives our children and grandchildren opportunities.
:18:33. > :18:39.There are issues right around Europe at the moment with regard to
:18:39. > :18:46.rights. The financial sector attacked the rights of union
:18:46. > :18:49.workers. On China does not want to be a low wage economy. They could
:18:49. > :18:55.potentially have better collective bargaining rights within a decade
:18:55. > :19:00.than the US. That is the wealth distribution mechanism we take that
:19:00. > :19:04.money from the to be in richest, we distributed and build a demand base.
:19:05. > :19:10.Who is going to buy the products is workers do not have a sustainable
:19:10. > :19:17.income. The private sector cannot sustain an economy based on a lack
:19:17. > :19:22.of income for workers. And yet, you say that. I make challenging the
:19:22. > :19:28.way that I do. But at the end of the day public opinion will beaky
:19:28. > :19:37.to his argument wins between you and those private sector economies.
:19:37. > :19:41.A recent poll in the US. A majority felt that unions reduced the number
:19:41. > :19:47.of good jobs in a country and harm to America's competitiveness in the
:19:47. > :19:51.global economy. I have a different view to that. On the contrary I
:19:51. > :19:55.would say: If you are squeaking people if they want a secured jobs
:19:55. > :20:00.and income, if they believe they should have a fair share of
:20:00. > :20:05.productivity. Look different countries. In three decades the
:20:05. > :20:15.share of wages has decreased by more than 10% despite the fact that
:20:15. > :20:21.the economy doubled in dollar terms. Why he's membership on the decline?
:20:21. > :20:26.Come with me again to a number of countries. You said wages were not
:20:26. > :20:36.holding up in the UK. But surely it's off the back of that that is
:20:36. > :20:46.too -- historically the union movement has flourished. That is
:20:46. > :20:47.
:20:47. > :20:52.our job. To bargain for wages, to see people have equal opportunity.
:20:52. > :20:58.On the experience is very. Our core businesses recruiting a new
:20:58. > :21:04.generation of workers. I could show you are decisions for life project
:21:04. > :21:10.organising young women in some of the poorest countries. 100,000
:21:10. > :21:19.people have organised around issues for them. Income, freedom from
:21:19. > :21:24.discrimination. On public sector strikes this year. Is there a
:21:24. > :21:29.danger that by pushing too hard you create a government backlash. The
:21:29. > :21:34.UK government has warned that if the public sector unions pushed too
:21:34. > :21:40.hard and create major disruption they will introduce anti- strike
:21:40. > :21:49.legislation. If governments have to resort to taking away fundamental
:21:49. > :21:53.rights of workers who paid are saying to work longer and have less
:21:54. > :22:01.dignity in retirement when they have given their whole lives to
:22:01. > :22:07.looking after us. Even if their benefits, pay and job security is
:22:07. > :22:17.far outstripping the private sector. The public in general may view
:22:17. > :22:22.
:22:22. > :22:26.public sector workers as in some corners an elite workforce. It --
:22:26. > :22:31.governments want to pit worker against worker. We have to raise
:22:31. > :22:37.jobs to the level of decent work everywhere. President Sarkozy sat
:22:37. > :22:43.down with us last weekend talked about rights and said to the G20
:22:43. > :22:48.leaders: You must have care he rents. We have to build an economy
:22:48. > :22:53.based on fundamental dignity and rights. That's what our
:22:53. > :22:57.grandchildren one to hear. That's what we want to be part of. Let's
:22:57. > :23:04.work through a strategy but let's not blame the people whose money
:23:04. > :23:12.bailed out the banks and let the bank has simply run free and let
:23:12. > :23:20.governments say, it's not an our full. The public are the people you
:23:21. > :23:27.use public transport. If they get hit with strikes Arvo strikes
:23:27. > :23:37.always right? Should the public be backing public sector workers in
:23:37. > :23:42.
:23:42. > :23:47.every case? -- are those strikes always right? If they will not sit
:23:47. > :23:51.at the table then workers will have no choice. It is a last resort for
:23:51. > :23:56.any wicket, particularly those looking after people in hospitals
:23:56. > :24:01.or schools. If you do not have a government that treats workers with
:24:01. > :24:05.dignity then what is their choice but to stand up for themselves and
:24:05. > :24:10.for future generations of otherwise you will never get people to be
:24:11. > :24:15.teachers or nurses. We do not want to see strikes but we want to see
:24:15. > :24:21.governments with real growth plans for real jobs for the new paradigm