:00:13. > :00:16.Now it is time for HARDtalk. In July, a fifth of Afghanistan was
:00:16. > :00:21.handed over to the control of Afghan security forces. All western
:00:21. > :00:25.combat troops leave by 2014. Yet the Taliban are getting bolder in
:00:25. > :00:29.their attacks. The first six months of 2011 were the deadliest for
:00:29. > :00:31.Afghan civilians since the war began 10 years ago. I talk to US
:00:31. > :00:35.Lieutenant-General William Caldwell who is tasked with training Afghan
:00:35. > :00:37.soldiers and police. Most can't even read or write and corruption
:00:37. > :00:40.and disloyalty is rife. Does he believe western nations are
:00:41. > :00:50.withdrawing combat troops too soon - risking a return of Taliban
:00:51. > :01:13.
:01:14. > :01:20.control? General William Caldwell in Kabul,
:01:20. > :01:27.welcome to HARDtalk. The violence is getting worse in Afghanistan.
:01:27. > :01:31.Our Afghan forces up to the job? Having been on the ground here for
:01:32. > :01:38.almost two years now, I think they are. They are continuing to improve.
:01:38. > :01:42.Air quality gets better all the time. Air force is still growing.
:01:42. > :01:47.By December 2014, when they need to take the lead, our assessment is
:01:47. > :01:53.that they will be ready. When you took over this job as NATO's head
:01:54. > :02:01.of training in 2009, you were widely reported as saying that you
:02:01. > :02:07.were horrified by what you saw. That is correct. In fact a life
:02:07. > :02:11.find that many people's perceptions exist from that time period. We
:02:11. > :02:15.found that the police were underpaid, they were poorly led.
:02:16. > :02:20.They were illiterate. They didn't have the proper equipment. What we
:02:20. > :02:24.found was a force that was untrained. There were significant
:02:25. > :02:31.challenges that existed in autumn of 2009. In the army we found the
:02:31. > :02:34.exact same things. The US vice- president, Joe Biden, says the
:02:34. > :02:44.training of the Afghan army is painfully slow and difficult. Is he
:02:44. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:52.right? What I would say is we want the training to be enduring. What
:02:52. > :02:55.we did in the first 18 months here it is we develop 100,000 new
:02:55. > :03:01.security forces for Afghanistan. They are out today serving their
:03:01. > :03:05.country. Now we are developing their systems. Their maintenance,
:03:05. > :03:10.logistics. The second part is a training leaders and training them
:03:10. > :03:15.really takes time. This is a time- consuming process - it doesn't
:03:15. > :03:20.happen overnight. Joe Biden is right? It is a time-consuming
:03:20. > :03:29.process. Are you comfortable with the fact that we have seen one
:03:29. > :03:36.fifth of the country now looking to Afghan forces for their security?
:03:36. > :03:40.No, in fact I am, and more importantly, the Afghans are - they
:03:40. > :03:43.are eager to take on the lead for security. It doesn't mean coalition
:03:43. > :03:49.forces have gone all we are not here to support them as required,
:03:49. > :03:58.it means row making the decisions that their forces will be the first
:03:58. > :04:03.to respond. -- it means they are making the decisions. I understand
:04:03. > :04:08.that Western forces are still there in a supporting role. However, you
:04:08. > :04:12.are putting the Afghan forces in control. My question is this -
:04:12. > :04:22.those Afghan forces - are they adequately trained, in your
:04:22. > :04:25.
:04:25. > :04:28.opinion? Are back up to it? -- are they up to it? They are. The police
:04:28. > :04:34.and army forces are vastly different to what they were two
:04:34. > :04:41.years ago. There has been significant progress. I was just
:04:41. > :04:47.out in large Kashgar last month and I found that the police forces
:04:47. > :04:51.there, from one year ago to now, they have been upgraded. They are
:04:51. > :04:55.better equipped, better trained. We have been able to provide more
:04:55. > :04:59.leaders, Junior leaders for them who didn't exist a year ago. There
:04:59. > :05:03.are those people who study Afghanistan very closely and know
:05:03. > :05:10.the country well. The International Crisis Group, for instance. They
:05:10. > :05:15.have carried out a study this here and they say that there is a danger
:05:15. > :05:19.of moving too quickly on training. You won't have the cohesiveness,
:05:19. > :05:24.the loyalty or the infrastructure to support those soldiers and
:05:24. > :05:28.police. She says there is domestic pressure to wrap this up and get it
:05:28. > :05:36.done so it becomes easy to rush. Are you being rushed in any way
:05:36. > :05:43.that you are having to train as quickly as possible? I can tell you
:05:43. > :05:47.- I don't feel any pressure to rush. My civilian boss - the NATO
:05:47. > :05:54.Secretary General has been very clear - he sees at the NATO
:05:54. > :06:00.training mission in during here beyond 2014. What I understand is
:06:00. > :06:05.that we have to put in place, by 2014, capable Afghan army and
:06:05. > :06:07.security police forces who can take control of the country. There will
:06:07. > :06:13.be challenging, I do want to downplay them, but as I have
:06:13. > :06:22.watched what has happened over the last two years - I am confident --
:06:22. > :06:31.I do not want to. What happens if they are not ready by 2014? They
:06:31. > :06:34.will be. It is a great hypothetical question, but... If I could
:06:34. > :06:38.interrupt - it is not a hypothetical question. When you
:06:38. > :06:42.hear the British Prime Minister talking about UK involvement he
:06:42. > :06:48.says it will finish by the end of 2014 regardless of what is going on.
:06:48. > :06:52.The deadline is a deadline and it won't slip. Suppose for the sake of
:06:52. > :06:57.argument goes troops are not ready - there is David Cameron saying
:06:57. > :07:02.that the deadline is the deadline. I think what your Prime Minister
:07:02. > :07:06.also said is that he is committed to the training effort. Very
:07:06. > :07:09.recently, in the last couple of months, he made an announcement and
:07:09. > :07:15.said that they are going to provide training to help stand up the
:07:15. > :07:22.Afghan officer academy here that will be modelled after Sandhurst.
:07:22. > :07:30.We call at Sandhurst in the sand over here. It will train about
:07:30. > :07:35.1,200 young Afghan officers every year. The commitment to that, as he
:07:35. > :07:38.stated publicly, goes until 2023. I think there is a commitment on his
:07:38. > :07:43.behalf to see the training mission through. I think everybody
:07:43. > :07:47.understands that combat forces, the lead effort and the fighting itself,
:07:47. > :07:51.it has to be turned over to the Afghans. I am comfortable that,
:07:51. > :08:01.with the progress we have made, the path we are on, they will have the
:08:01. > :08:07.ability to take the lead for security. What do you say about
:08:07. > :08:11.other military figures who, perhaps, but as confident as you - for
:08:11. > :08:16.instance, the former chief of the Defence Staff here in the United
:08:16. > :08:20.Kingdom. He said in June - the concern I have is about the date -
:08:20. > :08:26.it seems to be more closely related to political and electoral
:08:26. > :08:29.timescales than it does to a safe handover to Afghan forces. You know
:08:29. > :08:38.that sentiment is expressed by some military people - what you say to
:08:38. > :08:43.them? I find in a lot of cases - I hear that, and I try to understand
:08:43. > :08:50.when the last time they were here on the ground. When did they get
:08:50. > :08:53.their last experience out here? That perspective is very important.
:08:53. > :09:01.Two years ago, if you were to ask me this exact same question I would
:09:01. > :09:07.say there was no way they would be able to do it. After two years I
:09:07. > :09:10.see the growing ability of their forces. Again, I don't mean to
:09:10. > :09:19.downplay it, there will be challengers out there for us. We
:09:19. > :09:23.will have setbacks on the way. -- challenges. If the Afghan
:09:23. > :09:28.leadership continues to support us the way they have, they will set
:09:28. > :09:36.themselves up to do this. Are you worried? Because you said it if
:09:36. > :09:40.people stay engaged. That is quite an if, isn't it? You look at
:09:40. > :09:43.President Obama pushing for a fast withdrawal, you look at polls that
:09:43. > :09:49.say the American public on to see the end of the war because it is so
:09:49. > :09:52.expensive and everybody has a huge debt in so many countries. It is
:09:52. > :09:55.possible, isn't it, that the commitment you're talking about now
:09:55. > :10:00.to see the training programme through until 2023 may actually
:10:00. > :10:10.slipped? Your training budget in 2010 was $12 billion. People might
:10:10. > :10:12.
:10:12. > :10:15.say that they don't have that kind of money any more. Today in this
:10:15. > :10:20.command we have 33 different nations involved as part of the
:10:20. > :10:30.NATO training effort here. We have about 2000 trainers with another
:10:30. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:43.600 inbound. I am not seeing, within this grip... By December we
:10:43. > :10:49.will have an additional 800 Canadians as a part of this effort.
:10:49. > :10:52.What I am more concerned about is how rapidly we may draw back from
:10:52. > :10:55.the combat role. In the training side I think there is an
:10:55. > :11:01.understanding that the only way we'll get out of the situation is
:11:01. > :11:06.to train our way out of it. The commitment to the training is very
:11:06. > :11:14.real. I will clarify that - New Abbey you have people's support on
:11:14. > :11:19.the training mission. -- you are confident. You are worried about a
:11:19. > :11:23.too rapid withdrawal from combat? The way it is currently set I am
:11:23. > :11:27.comfortable with. We have looked at this - different nations have made
:11:27. > :11:30.decisions. The key will be everyone moving together. All the
:11:30. > :11:37.international nations who are here with combat forces having a
:11:37. > :11:43.discussion. This is so we don't precipitously pull out of one area
:11:43. > :11:50.or another without co-ordinating with the NATO effort. So on
:11:50. > :11:52.training - how long do you think NATO is involved bilaterally - how
:11:53. > :12:02.long does it have to remain in Afghanistan to train the forces
:12:03. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:10.they? -- for the forces there. think we would finish training the
:12:10. > :12:20.Air Force until 2016. We all the trainers on the ground throughout
:12:20. > :12:23.that time period. As far as the army and the police force goes,
:12:23. > :12:28.there will be a need - one of the things we have worked hard to do is
:12:28. > :12:32.build systems and institutions. Those are the type of things that I
:12:32. > :12:41.would like to see trainers remaining engaged in for several
:12:41. > :12:46.more years. Does take time to teach people to use a medical system or a
:12:46. > :12:53.maintenance system or a supply system. How to run an institution
:12:53. > :13:00.such as a school or academy. Thousands of Western troops could
:13:00. > :13:03.remain in Afghanistan for, how long? Decades? I would not say
:13:03. > :13:13.decades. One of the key things we're doing now is training against
:13:13. > :13:20.
:13:21. > :13:26.to become the primary trainers. December 2012 -- training Afghan us.
:13:26. > :13:30.We are starting a certification training programme for them. We are
:13:30. > :13:34.building the army and police. We are also starting to train the
:13:34. > :13:40.trainers. They will take on the commitment to make it an enduring
:13:40. > :13:50.and self-sustaining capability. You're still not giving me a
:13:50. > :13:50.
:13:50. > :13:54.specific year, but perhaps you do not feel inclined to do that.
:13:54. > :13:57.a fair question and what I would tell you is that by 2014 we should
:13:57. > :14:03.see probably the training mission reduced to about half the size of
:14:03. > :14:13.what it is today. We would take it from about 5,000 military and
:14:13. > :14:16.
:14:16. > :14:24.police professionals down to about 2000-3,000. They could stay another
:14:24. > :14:29.decade here inside Afghanistan. Ultimately, it would be an Afghan
:14:30. > :14:37.decision. Let's look at the training that you are in charge.
:14:37. > :14:42.There are currently something like 159,000 Afghan soldiers, about
:14:42. > :14:51.125,000 Afghan police. The target is, what? About 300,000? Is that
:14:51. > :15:00.right? You are about right. Today we have 302,000 Afghan army and
:15:00. > :15:07.police combined. The army is at about 171,000 and the police is at
:15:07. > :15:10.about 131,000. Our goal was, by this October, to be at 305,000.
:15:11. > :15:14.have been training them, but most of the recruits are illiterate, but
:15:14. > :15:24.they? They can't even read the serial numbers on arrival, for
:15:24. > :15:27.instance? That is one thing that shocked me. I didn't think it was
:15:28. > :15:31.something I should have to do is a military professional, but I
:15:32. > :15:35.recognised very quickly that if we were going to make this an enduring
:15:35. > :15:41.army of police officers, we would have to teach them literacy. We
:15:41. > :15:48.took it on. We test every new recruits coming in. Only one in ten
:15:48. > :15:54.can even write their name. 90% are absolutely illiterate. They can't
:15:54. > :15:57.read the serial number on their weapons. We now higher almost 3,000
:15:57. > :16:02.Afghan teachers who run full-time literacy courses throughout all of
:16:02. > :16:07.our training programmes. In some cases it is full-time school for
:16:07. > :16:13.soldiers and police. We have made a real effort to raise that up. What
:16:13. > :16:17.I can tell you is that there is a ceremony here just recently - we
:16:17. > :16:21.just passed the 100,000 mark of young men who came in absolutely
:16:21. > :16:25.illiterate but now have some level of literacy that they did not have
:16:25. > :16:31.before they joined the Army or the police. What made you change your
:16:31. > :16:34.mind? Are enthusiastic about what you do? When the late Richard
:16:34. > :16:42.Holbrooke said he would have to do something about these illiterate
:16:42. > :16:46.recruits, you said - I am a military man, I don't do literacy,
:16:46. > :16:52.I don't do nation-building. Did you just have to obey orders? Did you
:16:52. > :17:00.do we reluctantly? Do you now. With joy? I actually now. With
:17:00. > :17:04.tremendous enthusiasm. I consider myself one of the premier literacy
:17:04. > :17:07.teachers in this country. What really made me a believer - and
:17:08. > :17:13.again, Richard Holbrooke and I became very good friends before his
:17:13. > :17:18.untimely death, he came back here periodically. After about two locks
:17:18. > :17:27.on the ground I went back to him and said - you are exactly right. -
:17:27. > :17:32.- two months. We have to take on literacy. In the West we hadn't
:17:32. > :17:35.Afghan unit that was well trained and had gone out on an operation
:17:35. > :17:40.without coalition forces. A small unit of about 30 young Afghan men.
:17:40. > :17:44.They got into a firefight. They needed to call in medical
:17:44. > :17:48.helicopters to come and pick up the wounded. When they called back -
:17:48. > :17:52.because they know how to operate the radios - and asked for help,
:17:52. > :17:57.they were asked about their location. None of them could read a
:17:57. > :18:01.map. They had never learned how to read a map. A basic skill that
:18:01. > :18:11.soldiers have to have. They were unable to do it because they were
:18:11. > :18:11.
:18:11. > :18:16.all illiterate and disorganised. That is what helped to transform
:18:16. > :18:23.your ideas. You have other challenges as well. Would that
:18:23. > :18:28.desertion. Didn't you say that out of 110,000 recruits of last year
:18:28. > :18:38.only 70,000 exist. You do Pedy has talked about soldiers going back to
:18:38. > :18:43.do the harvesting. -- your deputy. What we do find, again this goes
:18:43. > :18:52.back to what we see as our number one priority, it is developing
:18:52. > :18:57.leaders. There are cases, enough of them to make a significant
:18:57. > :19:03.difference at times, where a young men have not been able to take
:19:03. > :19:08.leave to go home so they do with independently. The minister of
:19:08. > :19:13.defence will be the first to tell you that in any month around 2,000,
:19:13. > :19:21.3,000 come back and want to continue serving. In the absence of
:19:21. > :19:31.being allowed to delete in a formal manner they just take off. -- been
:19:31. > :19:35.
:19:35. > :19:42.able to do it. What you will tell me is what? It has not hindered our
:19:42. > :19:50.ability to keep growing the army. We have an overwhelming number of
:19:50. > :19:56.recruits that want to come in every month. All right but you are
:19:56. > :20:01.worried about, you can't trust the figures. When you say you have this
:20:01. > :20:06.many, but you don't know how many are on the farm, which are serving.
:20:06. > :20:11.Their numbers are always a challenge and that is why it is
:20:11. > :20:19.very important that the coalition forces work with the Afghan forces
:20:19. > :20:27.to reconcile that. We are doing a 100% inventory of every soldier in
:20:27. > :20:33.the Afghan army. A 100% re verification of who is there,
:20:33. > :20:43.serving in a position. I would like to run and quickly to some of the
:20:43. > :20:46.
:20:46. > :20:51.other challenges you face. You get in for traitors, something like 50
:20:51. > :21:01.Western troops have been killed by people who have turned against them.
:21:01. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:10.-- you get in full -- people who infiltrate. We call it the inside
:21:10. > :21:15.threat. We have analysed the situation is in the last five years
:21:15. > :21:21.where it has occurred and the vast majority have been associated with
:21:21. > :21:26.combat stress and associations. We have an eight step vetting process
:21:26. > :21:30.which has worked pretty well. If they are attempting to come in
:21:30. > :21:37.through the training system we are able to weave them out pretty well.
:21:37. > :21:42.That is part of the 1,000 we turned down every month. We have
:21:42. > :21:48.established Counter Intelligence personnel who look for someone with
:21:48. > :21:54.erratic behaviour, something unusual. Briefly on corruption you
:21:54. > :22:04.have also got problems with heroin addicts are monks the police force.
:22:04. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:12.What do you do about corruption? Corruption obviously is an issue
:22:12. > :22:17.here. As I tried to put it in perspective, that is why we need to
:22:17. > :22:25.tell them what right looks like in terms of integrity, leadership.
:22:25. > :22:29.They went through 30 years of civil war, not having anything. They have
:22:29. > :22:37.developed a culture where you need to take care of yourself first
:22:37. > :22:42.before others. Through training programmes, and by example if we
:22:42. > :22:49.are trying to instil in them the idea of service to others. There is
:22:49. > :22:53.a great thing in Sandhurst that talks about the need to lead. It is
:22:53. > :23:01.the same thing we are trying to instil today. You have made it
:23:01. > :23:05.clear that there is going to be a Western presence for some time.
:23:05. > :23:09.When the Afghans are totally in control of their own security is
:23:09. > :23:17.there not a real possibility that the Taliban would re-emerge, retake
:23:17. > :23:24.the country? I can tell you from the Afghans that I work with every
:23:24. > :23:29.single day of the week, and I travel around the country every
:23:29. > :23:38.week, go to 70 different training site, there is no Afghans that I
:23:38. > :23:46.have met with yet that really want to have the time ran around. --
:23:46. > :23:54.that really want the Taliban around. They are not trying to build
:23:54. > :24:02.something up for the people, they take it away from them. General
:24:02. > :24:12.William Caldwell in Kabul, thank you very much for coming on
:24:12. > :24:41.
:24:41. > :24:46.This is Sport Today. Coming up on the programme: Brilliant in
:24:46. > :24:52.Budapest. The McLaren driver wins the Hungarian Grand Prix.
:24:52. > :24:57.Yani Tseng picks up number five at the Women's British Open.
:24:57. > :25:05.Another great champion finally gets the winning feeling again. Serena
:25:05. > :25:12.Williams dances with delight. Hello again. The Jenson Button
:25:12. > :25:17.marks his 200th race with the Hungarian Grand Prix. He mastered
:25:17. > :25:21.the wet conditions to claim his second win of the season. It was a
:25:21. > :25:29.different story for Lewis Hamilton who suffered a drive-through
:25:29. > :25:37.penalty and finished in number four. Sebastian Vettel came in second.
:25:37. > :25:43.His 200th Formula One race. Very few drivers have more experience on
:25:43. > :25:51.the wheel. It served him well. He won his first Grand Prix in Hungary
:25:51. > :25:56.five years ago. Most importantly, both McLarens were capturing
:25:57. > :26:04.Sebastian Vettel. Hamilton passed first. Jenson Button came in early
:26:04. > :26:09.for the pit stop and use the fresh tyres to ease past the Red Bull.
:26:09. > :26:16.There was a long way to go under a changing skies. Hamilton was
:26:16. > :26:24.feeling the heat with Jenson Button catching him. He spun his car and
:26:24. > :26:29.almost caused an accident. The stewards you of that would -- and
:26:29. > :26:34.the steward's view of that would almost cost him the race. Until the
:26:34. > :26:42.punishment was handed down for the spin, brother Nick watched Hamilton
:26:42. > :26:48.take through his drive in penalty. It may be an important win for a
:26:48. > :26:52.Jenson Button. McLaren will have to be just as dominant in the second
:26:52. > :27:00.half of the season as Red Bull have been in the first. Sebastian Vettel
:27:00. > :27:06.has stretched his championship lead. At the age of 22 most golfers are
:27:06. > :27:13.finding their way in the game. On Sunday Yani Tseng won her fifth
:27:13. > :27:18.major title. She used the youngest star to achieve that feat. The
:27:18. > :27:24.final round 69 was good enough for the world number one to win the
:27:24. > :27:34.tournament by four shots. Skull and's Katrina Matthew was the best-
:27:34. > :27:35.
:27:35. > :27:39.placed Briton. -- Scotland's. enjoy the crowd today. So many
:27:39. > :27:44.players making history on this golf course. It is my honoured to win
:27:44. > :27:49.the British Open again. I am learning from mistakes and have
:27:49. > :27:54.been through it all here and throughout this year the memento, I
:27:54. > :27:58.have got a great attitude and feel very happy.
:27:58. > :28:08.Serena Williams has won her first title since Wimbledon in June of
:28:08. > :28:11.
:28:11. > :28:19.last year. She beat Marion Bartoli. She only recently returned to
:28:19. > :28:24.tennis after 12 months out due to injury. She won straight sets. She
:28:24. > :28:30.has fallen to 169 in the world ranking and this should see her
:28:31. > :28:35.back into the top 80. She says she is far from finished. I feel I am
:28:35. > :28:41.really good. I am happy to walk away with the wind. I have not won
:28:41. > :28:46.a tournament in a while. I am not finished. I do not feel I am
:28:46. > :28:50.finished by any means. I have to dust my shoulders off and keep
:28:50. > :28:55.pushing. The day three of the second Test at
:28:55. > :29:05.Trent Bridge will be remembered for a bizarre incident in the afternoon.
:29:05. > :29:13.It is the hosts to have the upper hand on day four. A lead of 374
:29:13. > :29:18.runs from England. Ian Bell was the staff. Back to the incident in
:29:18. > :29:27.question, Ian Bell was out for 137 after he believed a shot from
:29:27. > :29:31.Morgan had gone for four. In fact it had not. The bails were taken
:29:31. > :29:38.off but Ian Bell returned after the break following a sporting gesture
:29:38. > :29:43.from MS Dhoni who decided to withdraw his side's appeal.
:29:43. > :29:48.The Barcelona had a new superstar in one of their shirts in
:29:48. > :29:52.Washington DC on Sunday but the likes of Real Madrid and Manchester
:29:52. > :29:59.City should not be worried because this player is better with a ball
:29:59. > :30:07.in his hands and not his feet. Kobe Bryant took part in a celebrity
:30:07. > :30:16.match but should probably stick to the day job, maybe ditch the
:30:16. > :30:20.sunglasses. He was finding it hard to find the net. Kobe Bryant is
:30:20. > :30:29.sweating on what he will do in the coming months with the NBA lock-out
:30:29. > :30:39.pally in force. One thing for prepared is for sure - he will not
:30:39. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:49.Some pretty hot weather coming our way over the next few days and we
:30:49. > :30:59.will see thunderstorms developing around the middle of the week. That
:30:59. > :30:59.
:30:59. > :31:02.is still some way off. Most of us will be dry. Pretty warm, too. More
:31:02. > :31:12.cloud further west with some dampness across Northern Ireland,
:31:12. > :31:17.Scotland, the western fringes of Wales. For south-west England, West
:31:17. > :31:27.Wales, limited brightness. Further east it will brighten up for a term
:31:27. > :31:28.
:31:28. > :31:32.during a day. For Scotland, a good deal of cloud. Having said that,
:31:32. > :31:40.largely dry across the east. At nine o'clock in the morning a lot
:31:40. > :31:46.of dry weather across northern England. Reasonable as a start to
:31:46. > :31:55.the day. The highest of the temperatures in the Midlands, the
:31:55. > :32:02.south-east. Across the south-west of England, limited Brian has. --
:32:02. > :32:07.there will be limited brightness. There is every chance that the
:32:07. > :32:17.cloud will break across parts of Somerset, Gloucestershire, the east
:32:17. > :32:21.