:00:09. > :00:15.implicated. Now it is time for HARDtalk. Dr Swee Ang is a doctor
:00:15. > :00:20.with a difference. A 1982 she was working in a benign in the
:00:20. > :00:30.Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra mac and sheer terror just as
:00:30. > :00:34.
:00:34. > :00:39.thousands of residents were being massacred. -- Sabra and Shatila.
:00:39. > :00:49.Should it charities tried to rise above the conflicts in which they
:00:49. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:18.operate or or are they themselves Welcome to HARDtalk. Festival, tell
:01:18. > :01:28.me how you came to be working in those Palestinian refugee camps? --
:01:28. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :01:40.first of all. I toured the Old Testament -- taught. In 1982 when I
:01:40. > :01:49.was working in a London hospital and I sought the benign being
:01:49. > :01:56.bombed, I asked myself if Israel was saying or not? There is was
:01:56. > :02:03.during the Israeli invasion? Yes. When they asked for a doctor I
:02:03. > :02:11.volunteer. I had no idea that they were Palestinian refugee camps, but
:02:11. > :02:19.that where I ended up. Not quite being aware of what was going on
:02:19. > :02:24.around you? You were working in a basement? Yes. Gaza hospital is
:02:25. > :02:30.right between the two refugee camps. Because of being under bombardment
:02:30. > :02:38.for years they have located their office in the basement. I was
:02:38. > :02:48.operating non-stop with my team. David Nutt look like combatants and
:02:48. > :02:48.
:02:48. > :02:54.they were shot at close range. -- they did not look like. They were
:02:54. > :03:02.women, children, old people. I did not have time to investigate
:03:02. > :03:12.because it was so hectic. massacre changed your view dented?
:03:12. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:24.-- didn't it? Yes. It hosted the PLO also, not just refugees. That
:03:24. > :03:32.was then seen as a terrorist organisation. Yes, in fact I'd also
:03:32. > :03:37.saw them as a terrorist organisation. He evacuation happen
:03:37. > :03:47.to three weeks before the massacre. I was taking to the refugee camps
:03:47. > :03:51.
:03:51. > :03:56.to look after civilians. I discovered people who had been
:03:56. > :04:01.refugees for many generations. At that time the 4th generation were
:04:01. > :04:07.growing up in refugee camps. gave evidence to Israel's an
:04:07. > :04:13.inquiry into what happened. That commission came out with some very
:04:13. > :04:23.strong conclusions. It will lead the resignation of the then Defence
:04:23. > :04:28.
:04:28. > :04:35.Minister, ANA Real Chevron. --. Israeli people are not to be blamed
:04:35. > :04:42.for what sections of the Israeli army did. The background to the
:04:42. > :04:49.commission was that 400,000 Israeli citizens demonstrated in Tel Aviv
:04:49. > :04:55.and protested. Many of my Jewish friends, not only Palestinians,
:04:55. > :05:01.urged me to speak. It is important not to blame Israeli people as a
:05:01. > :05:10.whole. Nevertheless, after this trauma for you, I knew return
:05:10. > :05:16.Christian Aid did not renew your contract. Why was that? Christian
:05:16. > :05:23.Aid is a wonderful charity. I decided that was my own doing.
:05:23. > :05:29.Having witnessed and survived a massacre and having discovered
:05:29. > :05:37.Palestinians, it once my job as they adopted to speak up. Many of
:05:37. > :05:46.their lives I could not say. -- my job as their doctor. They felt you
:05:46. > :05:53.were speaking out in too much of a stridently political fashion?
:05:53. > :05:58.did not accuse me of that. In your book you said that you thought your
:05:58. > :06:08.colleagues might complain that you had been openly anti- Israeli and
:06:08. > :06:09.
:06:10. > :06:14.read to them. -- impolite to them. That is what I felt. He then
:06:14. > :06:21.decided to found Medical Aid for Palestinians and shortly after that
:06:21. > :06:29.you were that and the area was being attacked again by a pro
:06:29. > :06:39.Syrian military. I did a lot of speaking around the country. There
:06:39. > :06:40.
:06:40. > :06:44.were a lot of debates and the blame game was going on. There are
:06:44. > :06:51.hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees who are
:06:51. > :06:59.destitute and need our help. That is not political. As a doctor in a
:06:59. > :07:04.very small and modest way we started. He said it wasn't
:07:04. > :07:08.political, but you also right in your book that you were happy to
:07:08. > :07:15.advertise your political affiliation. If the weather was not
:07:15. > :07:23.too hot I walk a Hezbollah scarf around my head. Is that it a wise
:07:23. > :07:33.thing to do? Yes, in the refugee camps. The Hezbollah scarf is
:07:33. > :07:42.
:07:42. > :07:52.pretty clear. It was she -- a Ishinomaki scarf. -- a Shia Muslim
:07:52. > :08:00.
:08:00. > :08:04.scarf. If you wore a Shia Muslim scarf you got better treatment.
:08:04. > :08:13.say it is not political to want better treatment for Palestinian
:08:13. > :08:17.refugees. On the Medical Aid for Palestinians website it says: We
:08:17. > :08:20.are a strictly non-profit organisation and we take no
:08:20. > :08:27.political side on the conflict between Palestine and other
:08:27. > :08:37.countries. That is not true, is it? Yes. I have to be very clear in
:08:37. > :08:37.
:08:37. > :08:46.public. Whether I am talking in a personal capacity or whether I am
:08:46. > :08:54.speaking on behalf of the charity. But you are a patron of the charity,
:08:54. > :09:04.saying you cannot discern the Kuwait those two things, can you? -
:09:04. > :09:04.
:09:04. > :09:09.- you cannot separate. Things can be misconstrued. I am speaking in a
:09:09. > :09:14.personal capacity and not as a patron of the charity. But you have
:09:14. > :09:20.to take responsibility for what you say. Yes, they can attack me as a
:09:20. > :09:25.person. He told about how the Palestinians fought back in the
:09:25. > :09:30.second siege which she witnessed. There were reports of teenage girls
:09:30. > :09:34.loading themselves with explosives and running into the enemy tanks.
:09:34. > :09:40.The newspapers call then suicide bombers and the camp called them
:09:41. > :09:48.martyrs. What you call them? That is difficult because you have
:09:48. > :09:53.touched on a raw nerve. Some of them were nurses who I personally
:09:53. > :10:00.trained. I wish they did not have to do this. But you say that they
:10:00. > :10:04.did have to? Yes, to defend their people. What else could they do?
:10:05. > :10:11.Medical people willing to cause mass casualties on the other side.
:10:11. > :10:15.That is justifiable. Yes, personally I would not do it. When
:10:15. > :10:24.the girls did that, they were not acting as nurses. The circumstances
:10:24. > :10:34.of besiege were that the camp was being shelled day and night. -- the
:10:34. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:43.circumstances of the siege. I was in London when I heard the news. I
:10:43. > :10:47.knew they were desperate, because I knew then personally. They were not
:10:47. > :10:54.that kind of people. For how do you square those acts of violence with
:10:54. > :11:04.being a doctor? Very difficult, because as young women anywhere in
:11:04. > :11:04.
:11:04. > :11:10.the world, they should be.... They were kind to their patients. People
:11:10. > :11:18.urged me to be non-partisan, treat everyone as a human being. Some of
:11:18. > :11:26.them were planning marriages, hoping to keep university. -- go to
:11:26. > :11:29.university. I would not like them to do those things. He would not
:11:29. > :11:34.like them to do those things, but now you are saying it is
:11:35. > :11:40.understandable, justifiable? It is understandable, but not justifiable.
:11:40. > :11:50.You think there is a difference? Yes, I understand why they did it.
:11:50. > :11:52.
:11:52. > :12:00.Is there another way? Navy, if we defend them, if NATO had defended
:12:00. > :12:05.them, they would not have had to do it. You're charity, which according
:12:05. > :12:15.to its website is non-political. One of your trustees, Professor
:12:15. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:22.Graham Watt, urged Alex Salmond to cancel a trip to Israel. He wrote
:12:22. > :12:26.that the question he must ask himself is: What is Scottish public
:12:26. > :12:36.opinion on continuing to have relations with Israel when it
:12:36. > :12:41.behaves the way it does? That does not sound very a political to me.
:12:41. > :12:47.am not familiar with the exact circumstances. He was probably
:12:47. > :12:52.acting as part of the call to boycott Israeli goods and trade.
:12:52. > :13:02.sure organisation should not be doing if it says it is not
:13:02. > :13:04.
:13:04. > :13:14.political. Yes. He has -- the charity has not openly called for a
:13:14. > :13:14.
:13:14. > :13:21.boycott. Whether he did it in his personal capacity? So it is wrong
:13:21. > :13:26.for the charity to call for a boycott of Israel? I do not think
:13:26. > :13:31.the charity called for a boycott of Israel. But you can't make the
:13:31. > :13:39.distinction, can you? If you don't want to have the responsibility of
:13:39. > :13:45.not being political and saying you are not partisan, fair enough, but
:13:45. > :13:50.then do not be a member of the charity which says actually, to
:13:50. > :13:56.support Palestinians is a political thing.
:13:56. > :14:01.So you do have to take sides? is you murdered Palestinians like
:14:01. > :14:08.to complete that without witnesses, with at any one of strutting them.
:14:08. > :14:18.If Gaza is under siege I would stand up as being political because
:14:18. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:25.I am not in favour of Gaza being blockaded. Do you think you may
:14:25. > :14:29.change from a charity that offers medical help that by no longer
:14:29. > :14:39.being a neutral player you could make it more difficult for yourself
:14:39. > :14:54.
:14:54. > :14:59.to operate in conflict turns? -- You could stop helping the people
:14:59. > :15:02.who are trying to help. You have to ask yourself, how do you help them
:15:02. > :15:08.the best. Do you help them by giving them antibiotics. What do
:15:08. > :15:15.you help them with the root cause. When I talk to Palestinians, for
:15:15. > :15:20.instance when I was leaving to go to Jerusalem, I said, if I go to
:15:20. > :15:26.Jerusalem and testify there will be a lot of publicity and I might not
:15:26. > :15:30.be able to come back to you. I'll see you again. -- I will not. But
:15:30. > :15:36.if I keep quiet I will continue to be your doctor. You say that you
:15:36. > :15:46.need to talk about the root cause. Do you believe in a one state or a
:15:46. > :15:47.
:15:47. > :15:51.to state solution. -- two state solution. I want to ask, what is a
:15:51. > :15:55.two state solution? There was a time when I really subscribe to
:15:56. > :16:02.that, in the 1990s, after the first Palestinian uprising, like many
:16:02. > :16:06.Palestinians. We thought that it was possible to have a Palestinian
:16:06. > :16:09.state living side by side with an Israeli state. That is the
:16:09. > :16:19.overwhelming international consensus. You no longer believe
:16:19. > :16:21.
:16:21. > :16:25.that his wild bull? It is viable. - viable? But we cannot have Gaza
:16:25. > :16:29.with 1.6 p 8 -- 1.6 million people living in the size of the Isle of
:16:29. > :16:38.Wight. And we cannot have the West Bank walled up in a little zone to
:16:38. > :16:43.make a state. You know I think -- you now think a one state solution
:16:43. > :16:48.is the only way? No. You should take down the walls and the West
:16:48. > :16:51.Bank, the lift the blockade of Gaza, you establish a ridge between Gaza
:16:51. > :16:56.and the West Bank, and you make sure that the Palestinians
:16:56. > :17:00.recognise Israel and make sure Israel recognise the Palestinians.
:17:00. > :17:07.That would be a two state solution. Do you believe that the injustice
:17:07. > :17:14.is on one side? No. It takes to mac sides to create trouble. I am not
:17:14. > :17:19.favouring one side. Israel have got bigger bombs. Higher fire power.
:17:19. > :17:26.They can do more damage. I am not saying that Palestinians are angels.
:17:26. > :17:30.If they had the zings Israel had, they would inflict equal damage.
:17:31. > :17:39.What do you say about the Palestinian militants who fire
:17:39. > :17:44.Unguided missile's from Gaza? Is that understandable? No, it is not.
:17:44. > :17:53.The nurses who blew themselves I did so against tanks who were
:17:53. > :18:03.shelling. If tanks were their shelling of them, they would stop
:18:03. > :18:05.
:18:05. > :18:08.the shelling. It is AC each. If you are deliberately going to target
:18:08. > :18:13.civilians in Tel Aviv or something and shoot at them, that is not an
:18:13. > :18:18.act of war. That is targeting innocent people. Have you done
:18:18. > :18:23.enough to protest against that type of action? I think I have because I
:18:23. > :18:28.routinely asked that question. I say that terrorism is when somebody
:18:28. > :18:33.declares war against innocent people. If you bomb a refugee camp
:18:33. > :18:41.that is terrorism. If a fire a rocket kills as many people as you
:18:41. > :18:48.want to buy just as a cafe, that is terrorism. Have you done enough to
:18:48. > :18:55.protest against the ill-treatment of Palestinians by Palestinians.
:18:55. > :19:01.The unlawful killings in detention. The Palestinians doing that to each
:19:01. > :19:09.other? It happens a lot in Gaza and in the West Bank. Yes, it does. I
:19:09. > :19:13.have written... I have not spoken publicly enough, perhaps. But that
:19:13. > :19:22.is not something that should be... I do not condone it. I wish they
:19:22. > :19:26.would stop it. It is wrong. If you do that, what kind of country are
:19:26. > :19:30.you looking for? When you have a two state solution does it mean
:19:30. > :19:36.that the oppression of Palestinians by Israel becomes the oppression of
:19:36. > :19:43.Palestinians by Palestinians? Medical Aid for Palestinians did
:19:43. > :19:46.seem quite keen to suggest there were other reasons why this
:19:46. > :19:50.mistreatment why the -- might be taking place. It signed a joint
:19:50. > :19:55.letter which seemed quick to explain responsibility, saying the
:19:55. > :20:04.international diplomatic and financial were cut of Hamas has
:20:04. > :20:10.facilitated and aggravated this situation. It's I really do not
:20:11. > :20:20.know exactly what is meant by that. I am just guessing, I have not read
:20:21. > :20:21.
:20:21. > :20:28.the whole thing. I might be wrong, but I suppose they are saying it
:20:29. > :20:37.because we in the West have not gone out of our way to boycott and
:20:37. > :20:43.not talk to Hamas. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction. It is based on
:20:43. > :20:49.the fact that there chapter is anti-Semitic and they subscribe to
:20:49. > :20:54.violence against Israelis. They will change that they eventually.
:20:54. > :20:58.Not that they wanted, but they might. It may take you beyond the
:20:58. > :21:03.territories. Back to Lebanon, where Medical Aid for Palestinians does
:21:03. > :21:08.still work. Again, there seems to be a sense that although the
:21:08. > :21:14.Palestinian refugees in Lebanon with a miserable life, indeed it is
:21:14. > :21:17.described as an underclass by the Commissioner General for the UN
:21:17. > :21:21.refugee agency for Palestinians, speaking earlier this year. They
:21:21. > :21:30.live in a fragile state in which poverty and marginalisation carry
:21:30. > :21:37.serious risks of instability. Again, the rhetoric from mac is all about
:21:37. > :21:43.that any society having it so iron instability. There seems to be a
:21:43. > :21:53.desire not to criticise in a way that you are very willing to
:21:53. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :22:01.criticise Israel. There is a big campaign that I have subscribed to,
:22:01. > :22:07.to ask the Lebanese to grant Palestinians civil rights. And a
:22:07. > :22:12.campaign is being backed by the charity? They did not started. I am
:22:12. > :22:15.not sure whether they are officially packet. But individuals
:22:15. > :22:22.from Medical Aid for Palestinians had signed up. That is why it is so
:22:22. > :22:27.difficult. I as an individual have done that. But some of my trusted
:22:27. > :22:37.colleagues as individuals have also done that. But officially, whether
:22:37. > :22:37.
:22:38. > :22:42.Medical Aid for Palestinians has done that, I am not sure. You'll be
:22:42. > :22:46.-- elsewhere in the Middle East, outside the area directly to do
:22:46. > :22:51.with Palestinians and your work, but to do with how doctors are
:22:51. > :22:58.dealt with in conflict zones, we are seeing in Bahrain at the moment
:22:58. > :23:03.doctors and nurses being picked up, detained, a charge with political
:23:03. > :23:09.activities against the state. How concerned are you that doctors in
:23:09. > :23:18.conflict signs are not safe? I am very concerned. Doctors in conflict
:23:18. > :23:23.zones are constantly in danger. In fact, there are two kinds of, maybe
:23:23. > :23:28.more, doctors who are in Bahrain, who are very of Neville but they
:23:28. > :23:32.have not got a choice. Doctors who come from outside who volunteer to
:23:32. > :23:37.go it to a conflict zone. I have always told a young doctors who
:23:37. > :23:42.want to do that, that it is dangerous, you might be kidnapped
:23:42. > :23:47.and killed. Young people are very emotional and want to do things.
:23:47. > :23:52.Back to the case of Bahrain, it is not the first time that doctors
:23:52. > :23:56.treated badly. It has happened a few times. Isn't there a danger
:23:56. > :24:05.that by the sort of work you are involved in in which you are very
:24:05. > :24:10.politically active, you could be tarring all doctors with the brush
:24:10. > :24:20.of being party Prix? I really do not know. Some of them might see it
:24:20. > :24:23.
:24:23. > :24:30.that way. They might say that I am overstepping myself. But at the
:24:30. > :24:33.same time, young doctors will also see that you as a doctor are not
:24:33. > :24:38.only a technician. We are constantly trying to defend
:24:38. > :24:48.patients' right. In one circumstance, speaking up is a way
:24:48. > :25:04.
:25:04. > :25:08.to defend them. Swee Ang, Thank you Thence to plenty of cloud piling
:25:08. > :25:12.across the UK overnight, we are getting off to a much milder start
:25:12. > :25:18.today but obviously a much greyer one and a rather damp one for the
:25:18. > :25:23.rush hour. Outbreaks of rain affecting many parts. Rather
:25:23. > :25:27.persistent especially in the west. The further east you go, chances
:25:27. > :25:32.are he will escape with quite an overcast start but a relatively dry
:25:32. > :25:37.one. For northern England, the breeze picks up in the morning. The
:25:37. > :25:47.heaviest downpours likely across Cumbria and Lancashire. The rain
:25:47. > :25:50.also creeps into Scotland. The north-east remains dry. Northern
:25:50. > :25:55.Ireland, cloudy with patchy outbreaks of rain. Similar for
:25:55. > :26:02.Wales and the south-west of England. Very misty and murky here,
:26:02. > :26:05.particularly across the coasts and the Welsh mountains. Further east
:26:05. > :26:11.and the chance of seeing more significant rain for diminishes but
:26:11. > :26:18.I think there will be some patchy rain around. A grey start to
:26:18. > :26:22.Tuesday. As the day goes on, the south becomes increasingly dry. The
:26:23. > :26:29.brightness limited, though, overall on Tuesday. Northern Ireland gets
:26:29. > :26:35.the best of the sunshine in the afternoon. In the north of Scotland,
:26:35. > :26:38.we could get up to 25 millimetres of rain. That will linger across
:26:38. > :26:43.the north of Scotland into the early hours of Wednesday. Elsewhere,
:26:43. > :26:48.clear weather coming in from the west. Much cooler weather as well.
:26:48. > :26:53.Another chilly night particularly in the north of the UK. Rural areas
:26:53. > :27:01.into single figures. And in the west, the area of Blue Moon in
:27:01. > :27:09.there. Eh? On Wednesday's weather. Wednesday looks drier. The South
:27:09. > :27:13.will get more cloud. Later on, some rain for Wales and the south-west
:27:13. > :27:15.of England. The timing is uncertain. The system looks like it will