:00:08. > :00:12.Now it is time for HARDtalk. The European Union is in the middle
:00:12. > :00:16.of a profound crisis of confidence, and it is not just about sovereign
:00:16. > :00:19.debt and the future of the Eurozone. There is also a striking lack of
:00:19. > :00:22.unity and trust within the EU when it comes to issues of immigration,
:00:22. > :00:25.border security and social policy. I talk to the EU commissioner
:00:25. > :00:35.responsible for home affairs, Cecilia Malmstrom. Is nationalism
:00:35. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :01:05.re-emerging as the driving force of European politics?
:01:05. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.Cecilia Malmstrom, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Do you accept
:01:17. > :01:27.that the faith of the European public Indo-European Union and its
:01:27. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:30.institutions is at a very low ebb? Yes, I think we have to accept that.
:01:30. > :01:34.Also that the public in general seems to be a bit sceptical about
:01:34. > :01:40.their politicians all over Europe and other places in the world as
:01:40. > :01:47.well. We are in a difficult moment. Politicians are not held very high.
:01:47. > :01:53.No doubt about that. In Europe there is a particular focus on the
:01:53. > :02:00.eurozone, deep instability when it comes to get across many nations. -
:02:00. > :02:06.- debt. As Angela Merkel said, this is not just about the future of the
:02:06. > :02:10.euro, it is about the future of the European Union. You accept that?
:02:10. > :02:16.May be I would not have put it that dramatically, but it is a big
:02:16. > :02:25.crisis. We need to get our back together and show that Europe is
:02:25. > :02:31.taking a stronger grip on the crisis -- get our act together.
:02:31. > :02:35.spreads, it is about confidence. I am talking about you - you're
:02:35. > :02:38.portfolio is in home affairs. Would you accept that this crisis of
:02:38. > :02:46.confidence has a knock-on effect in the portfolio with which you deal
:02:46. > :02:49.day to day? Oh, definitely. My portfolio is very much about trust.
:02:49. > :02:53.About us trusting the other countries and the rest of us to
:02:53. > :02:58.protect the border, take a joint responsibility when it comes to
:02:58. > :03:02.migration, fighting organised crime etc. You can have all the
:03:02. > :03:07.legislation in the world, but if trust does not exist it is hard to
:03:07. > :03:12.move forward. At the moment trust is lacking. I could not have put it
:03:12. > :03:17.better myself. You are stealing the thunder from my next question. It
:03:17. > :03:21.seems to me that if you do not have trust then when it comes to border
:03:21. > :03:27.security, for example, the system that the EU has in place simply
:03:27. > :03:31.falls apart. It is put under threat - that is why it is so important
:03:31. > :03:39.not to give in to these forces that put them into question so we go
:03:40. > :03:47.backwards. If the European Union were to fall apart and we were all
:03:47. > :03:50.responsible for our own a border patrol and dealing with migration,
:03:50. > :03:55.having 27 different currencies - we would be in trouble. We need to
:03:55. > :03:59.show the benefits and the value of working together. It is not a
:03:59. > :04:06.question of hypothetical stash you're saying we "would" be in
:04:06. > :04:09.trouble. Look at events in North Africa, in particular the fact that
:04:09. > :04:16.tens of thousands of refugees are trying to leave North Africa to get
:04:16. > :04:20.inside the European Union. We have seen the impact of that - we have
:04:20. > :04:26.seen the French working with the Italian government, in essence, it
:04:26. > :04:35.rewriting the rules of the agreement. Do you think that was
:04:35. > :04:39.the wrong thing for Paris and Rome to do? They did not rewrite the
:04:39. > :04:43.agreement, but they have been stretching the rules. This has been
:04:43. > :04:50.dominating the agenda from my part. To make sure we have a regulation
:04:50. > :04:54.that is clear. It is clear that we do not allow member states to
:04:54. > :05:01.unilaterally changed the rules. With respect, it is not clear at
:05:01. > :05:04.all - they did, in effect, change the rules. As I understand it there
:05:04. > :05:13.is now 80 facto agreement in place that has expanded the conditions
:05:13. > :05:16.under which countries can impose border control -- de facto. They
:05:16. > :05:22.interpreted the rules - they stretched them, but they did not
:05:22. > :05:26.violate them. It was a violation of the spirit of the rules, but not
:05:26. > :05:31.technically a legal violation. This shows we need to be more specific
:05:31. > :05:40.on how far you can stretch them. We will come to that proposal later in
:05:40. > :05:43.September.Dancing on the head of a pin, aren't you? They decided to
:05:43. > :05:49.ignore what was clearly the prevalent interpretation of the
:05:49. > :05:53.rules. They stretch the rules, as I said. This is unfortunate. We have
:05:53. > :05:59.seen it on many occasions now. You have seen it in Denmark and other
:05:59. > :06:08.areas. That is why it is important to look at the rules together and
:06:08. > :06:13.discuss it so that France and Italy and Denmark - and many fear that
:06:13. > :06:17.this is going to lead to a situation that we do not want.
:06:18. > :06:21.There are also forces fighting against this. No doubt there are
:06:21. > :06:31.forces. I am looking at a quote from the former Belgian leader who
:06:31. > :06:34.has said that France and Italy are imposing new border patrols.... He
:06:34. > :06:43.said that the Italians and the French are acting as if the EU did
:06:43. > :06:46.not exist anymore. That is why we need to... We have had long
:06:46. > :06:50.discussions with the member states and the majority of the member
:06:50. > :06:57.states have been critical and are asking for a clarification of the
:06:57. > :07:05.rules and better evaluation systems. We can identify the shortcomings in
:07:05. > :07:08.these countries. And new border controls have been imposed on the
:07:08. > :07:13.Swedes and the Germans - they have new lines where vehicles have to
:07:13. > :07:17.pass, customs officials using X- rays to see if illegal guns or a
:07:17. > :07:21.cash or drugs are being taken into Denmark - precisely because they do
:07:21. > :07:27.not trust that the current system can stop organised crime bringing
:07:27. > :07:31.these things into Denmark from Eastern Europe or somewhere else?
:07:31. > :07:40.We are in very close dialogue with the Danish authority. Not all of
:07:40. > :07:43.that is in place yet. We have questioned the background of this -
:07:43. > :07:50.you are allowed to make certain controls but they have to be made
:07:50. > :07:53.on intelligence. They have to beat credibly motivated. We have asked a
:07:53. > :07:57.lot of questions of the Danish government and they must answer all
:07:57. > :08:02.of them in September. If we do not get satisfactory answers we might
:08:02. > :08:07.need to go further. You are painting a picture of uncertainty.
:08:07. > :08:11.You're saying the key decisions will have to be taken in the autumn
:08:11. > :08:16.about border controls. What are you going to do in the next few weeks?
:08:16. > :08:19.We see unpredictable situations in Libya. We see thousands of people
:08:19. > :08:24.trying to flee north Africa. That could become a bigger tied over the
:08:24. > :08:29.next few weeks. What are you emergency contingency plans? If I
:08:29. > :08:34.could solve all of those problems that would be great. We are trying
:08:34. > :08:39.to assist member state as best as we can. You have to remember that
:08:39. > :08:44.more than one million people have left Libya. So far only around
:08:44. > :08:50.20,000 of them have come to Europe. We need to put things in proportion.
:08:50. > :08:54.Tunisians have been coming to Italy - a vast majority of the people
:08:54. > :08:57.running away from Libya are going to the neighbouring countries. We
:08:57. > :09:02.are focusing on assisting the neighbouring countries. We are
:09:02. > :09:07.helping Italy and Malta to deal with the people who come there.
:09:07. > :09:09.This is something that is not being discussed only in the commission -
:09:09. > :09:14.every time we meet with the ministers we have discussions how
:09:14. > :09:22.to deal with this. We are urging them to take responsibility, show
:09:22. > :09:27.solidarity. Not only greet the democratic changes in Egypt,
:09:27. > :09:32.Tunisia and the rebels in Libya, but to assist, physically, with the
:09:32. > :09:38.people coming. We cannot let Tunisia absorb all these people who
:09:38. > :09:42.are running away... You have been using those sorts of words for the
:09:42. > :09:48.last six months. Back in March Nicolas Sarkozy called for the EU
:09:48. > :09:55.to set up emergency camps inside Egypt and Tunisia. He said they
:09:55. > :10:00.need humanitarian zones with huge camps to house refugees and, in his
:10:00. > :10:07.words, to provide Europeans with peace of mind. Did you take that
:10:07. > :10:12.seriously? No, of course not. There are already huge refugee camps. We
:10:12. > :10:15.are trying to help them with emergency humanitarian assistance.
:10:15. > :10:21.European countries, including France and the UK have been
:10:21. > :10:26.assisting in getting third-country nationals from Libya back to their
:10:26. > :10:32.original country. Thousands of people have been sent back. We are
:10:32. > :10:39.helping. All countries in Europe are more or less supporting the
:10:39. > :10:45.NATO action in Libya.... Know, know they are not. That is patently
:10:45. > :10:51.untrue. Germany, for one... Well, Germany is not. Germany is morally
:10:51. > :10:55.supporting it even if they are not actively participating. If we say
:10:55. > :11:02.that the rebels - some countries have even recognised the rebels as
:11:02. > :11:06.the new legitimate regime, we need to be taking care of these people.
:11:06. > :11:11.We cannot leave a poor, reforming country like Tunisia, a small
:11:11. > :11:17.country who is struggling to get to democratic reform, to take care of
:11:17. > :11:21.these refugees. We have to help. You do - and you keep pointing to
:11:21. > :11:27.the humanitarian imperative here. Let's be specific. You believe the
:11:27. > :11:30.Italian government has lived up to its obligations? It is believed
:11:30. > :11:37.that more than 1,900 North African refugees have died trying to flee
:11:37. > :11:39.across the Mediterranean this year. Amnesty International says that EU
:11:39. > :11:43.leaders are intent to from protecting themselves from new
:11:43. > :11:46.arrivals when they should be trying to prevent people from drowning. I
:11:46. > :11:50.think she was pointing at the Italians. Do you share that
:11:51. > :11:58.sentiment? I am appalled by the number of people who have drowned
:11:58. > :12:02.in the Mediterranean. I must say that Italian and Maltese and these
:12:02. > :12:08.agencies have done a lot to try and save these people. The
:12:08. > :12:12.Mediterranean is a big body of water. It is sometimes very
:12:12. > :12:16.turbulent. Ruthless traffickers put a lot of people in very small boats
:12:16. > :12:20.and sometimes they do not reach the shore. Italian coastguards have
:12:21. > :12:27.done a lot to try and assist them. I don't accept the notion that they
:12:27. > :12:31.have left them there. You talk about the EU agency responsible for
:12:31. > :12:34.beefing up and monitoring security - some would argue that it has not
:12:34. > :12:38.worked very well in the Mediterranean. They would certainly
:12:38. > :12:48.argue that it has not worked very well on the turkey/Greece border
:12:48. > :12:52.
:12:52. > :12:58.where pretty much half of Europe's illegal immigrants cross into...
:12:58. > :13:01.While they were there there was a decrease... Temporarily - maybe the
:13:01. > :13:05.reason they pulled out is because it did not work very well. There
:13:05. > :13:10.was a decrease at the beginning and then the numbers went up again.
:13:10. > :13:18.This can only be solved between Greece and Turkey and also by
:13:18. > :13:22.having a proper border control. If people come and ask for asylum, you
:13:22. > :13:27.cannot push them away. This is international law. They are not
:13:27. > :13:33.there to hinder people from coming. They are there to build up a proper
:13:33. > :13:43.border control and to assist these air, customs, they are not there to
:13:43. > :13:47.push back people. -- visas. They are there to assist, to detect, to
:13:47. > :13:51.prevent, if they can - but they cannot push people back - they have
:13:51. > :13:55.the right to ask for asylum. the nation states in the European
:13:55. > :14:02.Union have an obligation to have secured borders, do they not?
:14:03. > :14:12.Greece, for example, - would you say Greece is failing in its basic
:14:13. > :14:15.
:14:15. > :14:25.Yes. Not on board of control, one reception of asylum seekers. -- not
:14:25. > :14:28.
:14:28. > :14:32.on board wil board wiler control. We have a lot of money, experts
:14:32. > :14:41.trying to build up an asylum system that works but also to help them
:14:41. > :14:46.build up the control of the border. It will take time. As you are of
:14:46. > :14:54.very familiar, the Greek economy is not the best at the moment.
:14:54. > :15:01.could say that. The problem is, they have a backlog of at least
:15:01. > :15:05.60,000 illegal immigrants and they say that the richer nations in
:15:05. > :15:11.their European Union are not sharing the burden, not help
:15:11. > :15:17.increase in the right way. Not helping take the Refugees and this
:15:17. > :15:21.raises the bigger question of whether you can change a mind set
:15:21. > :15:27.in the European Union which right now is extremely negative when it
:15:27. > :15:34.comes to the impact of immigration. You are right. It is very difficult.
:15:34. > :15:44.We have a growing anti migration attitude, N T Migration parties
:15:44. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:53.that higher in the government, close to the government. A -- anti-
:15:53. > :15:58.migration. Greece has to do its homework. We are helping them,
:15:58. > :16:02.putting pressure but the appetite in other member states to share the
:16:02. > :16:07.responsibility with Greece is very little, yes. There is nothing we
:16:07. > :16:14.can do in the Commission to force them. It is understandable that
:16:14. > :16:18.this feeling is growing. There is evidence of an increasing negative
:16:18. > :16:26.view of immigration. It is in the election results, from your own
:16:26. > :16:33.country, Denmark, France, Italy - the far-right are politically
:16:33. > :16:40.increasingly strong. You are a Democrat, believe in democracy. You
:16:40. > :16:47.must presumably believe that there needs to be a response to get tough
:16:47. > :16:52.on immigration. No, I do not agree with that. Yes there are growing
:16:52. > :16:58.political parties but they are not in the majority. They are vocal,
:16:58. > :17:07.very loud but in the minority. They can identify problems but also the
:17:07. > :17:12.other political parties do that. It is a challenge and in many ways we
:17:12. > :17:17.have failed. These solutions provided with the extremist parties,
:17:17. > :17:23.I do not see any reason to agree with that. You are taking one part
:17:23. > :17:28.of my question. This isn't just about the extremists. David Cameron
:17:28. > :17:38.said that for too long immigration has been too high. You could not
:17:38. > :17:42.
:17:42. > :17:48.get a more simple response than that. He is the democratically
:17:48. > :17:53.elected leader. These are the elected leaders, they can say so
:17:53. > :17:59.but I also know that there is another part of history, the truth
:17:59. > :18:04.- migration has been very good for our countries and we need
:18:04. > :18:11.increasing migration because of democratic. That can be confirmed
:18:11. > :18:21.by a scientific report. We also ask member states to speak up on this.
:18:21. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:33.They say that they need migrants to fill the jobs, fill the gaps. And I
:18:33. > :18:40.used suggesting that in Spain where there is a high employment --
:18:40. > :18:46.unemployment level, they should want to see increased migration to
:18:46. > :18:51.their country? In is that the commission's message? I am
:18:51. > :18:55.interested to know. At this time in the European economy with the
:18:55. > :19:02.political friend we have discussed, you still think the best response
:19:02. > :19:08.is to tell Europeans to welcome immigration? There is a lot to do.
:19:08. > :19:13.We have to manage integration, have proper policies. Have a better
:19:13. > :19:18.distribution of migrants, asylum seekers in the European Union. It
:19:18. > :19:25.is also a fact confirmed in many scientific reports, by the industry
:19:25. > :19:31.that we do need for labour migration. That is something that
:19:31. > :19:36.many leaders say behind doors but dared to speak up to the public.
:19:36. > :19:46.Spain would not survive a day without Latton American workers who
:19:46. > :19:47.
:19:47. > :19:52.work in their healthcare sector. -- Latin-American. There to speak up.
:19:52. > :19:57.That is an interesting phrase. Do you feel that too many leaders are
:19:57. > :20:01.playing the politics of here with discussions of immigration,
:20:01. > :20:07.integration, multiculturalism, all of these things that you are in
:20:07. > :20:15.part responsible for? Member states are responsible for their own
:20:15. > :20:23.integration policies. We are here to assist them. Many leaders in
:20:23. > :20:29.Europe are sort of afraid, if you want, of the more nationalist, far
:20:29. > :20:35.right parties. They do not dare to speak up, yes. Yes there is a
:20:35. > :20:37.problem but the solution is maybe not to throw them out, close the
:20:37. > :20:43.borders but the solutions are different and we need to speak
:20:43. > :20:49.about these. I see very little leaderships. Some of the solutions
:20:49. > :20:55.focus on saying that multiculturalism has failed and we
:20:55. > :21:01.need to be much more proactive in our pursuit of integration. I am
:21:01. > :21:11.thinking of Mr Sarkozy's determination to push through the
:21:11. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:33.for niqab in France. -- full niqab. What does this mean,
:21:33. > :21:35.
:21:35. > :21:43.multiculturalism has failed Chris - - has failed? I don't understand
:21:43. > :21:53.what that means. One thing that clearly, Sarkozy has done, get
:21:53. > :21:55.
:21:55. > :22:00.tough on the Roma. He has sent in forces, repatriated them to other
:22:00. > :22:08.states. Are you prepared to take on people like Nicholas Sarkozy?
:22:08. > :22:13.did. It was mainly the responsibility of my colleague. We
:22:13. > :22:20.did take action, protest. The French changed a lot of their
:22:20. > :22:26.procedures. You have the right to make people leave your country and
:22:26. > :22:31.if they are... Sarkozy got away with it. I don't know why you're
:22:31. > :22:37.saying that he got away with it because he didn't. Not really. They
:22:37. > :22:43.changed their practices, they with through some of their proposals.
:22:43. > :22:48.The whole world... It has changed. With your harsh criticism of some
:22:48. > :22:56.of the European leaders, do you apply that to the murderous rampage
:22:56. > :23:03.of Anders Breivik in Norway? Your sadness that European leaders were
:23:03. > :23:09.not prepared to stand up for tolerance, open societies. Did he
:23:09. > :23:19.feel that European leaders are not responding in a strong enough way?
:23:19. > :23:20.
:23:20. > :23:29.-- did you feel. The whole world has condemned what he did. The
:23:29. > :23:32.effect of a very, very sick person's mind. There exists today a
:23:32. > :23:42.climate where it is perfectly legitimate to express some of the
:23:42. > :23:44.
:23:44. > :23:54.things that he expressed - multiculturalism has failed, Islam
:23:54. > :23:56.
:23:56. > :24:03.is dominant, we should preserve the Nordic race. His terrible
:24:03. > :24:10.shooting... You talk about the climate but it is nationalism, the
:24:10. > :24:20.politically dominant force in Europe today. Yes. You agree?
:24:20. > :24:30.many ways, yes. We see it in the economy, in a way, a desire to
:24:30. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:38.control your own borders. It is a growing nationalism and I deplore
:24:38. > :24:48.that. I am sorry to interrupt, Cecelia Malmstrom, but we have to
:24:48. > :24:59.
:24:59. > :25:03.leave it there. Thank you for Hello. Clear skies overnight mean a
:25:03. > :25:08.fresh start to Wednesday. A reasonable amount of bright weather
:25:08. > :25:15.around for the rest of the day. One or two showers and many of us will
:25:15. > :25:19.get away with a dry day. The rain pushing into south-west England in
:25:19. > :25:24.the early parts of the day but most of us will get away with a dry
:25:24. > :25:34.start. A bit of cloud in the south of Wales but sunshine early on
:25:34. > :25:41.
:25:41. > :25:44.across Northern Ireland. Feeling
:25:44. > :25:48.showers around western parts of Scotland but for much of central,
:25:48. > :25:51.eastern Scotland - after a wet Tuesday it is looking much better.
:25:51. > :25:57.Dry and sunny through the day. Sunshine across northern England,
:25:57. > :26:01.into East Anglia. A bit of cloud around in the south-east and it
:26:01. > :26:04.will thicken up towards south-west England. We are likely to see
:26:04. > :26:14.patchy outbreaks of rain around Devon, Cornwall. That is a sign of
:26:14. > :26:22.
:26:22. > :26:26.things to come. Doubt over the extent of the rain. How heavy it
:26:26. > :26:29.will be. The general idea is that as we go through the day, the
:26:29. > :26:32.thicker clouicker clouor two outbreaks of rain will extend
:26:32. > :26:35.across southern England. Not reliably dry by the afternoon. From
:26:35. > :26:45.the Midlands, north, it will be largely dry. Temperatures into the
:26:45. > :26:50.
:26:50. > :26:54.high teens, low 20s. Through the evening, bits of rain dying out.
:26:54. > :27:04.Clear skies across the northern half of the UK. The rain will come
:27:04. > :27:11.
:27:11. > :27:17.back in again with more purpose during the early part on Thursday.
:27:17. > :27:21.The treat of heavy rain in the south on Thursday. We're not
:27:21. > :27:24.exactly sure just how far north the wet will get but a good part of