:00:02. > :00:07.Minister. Welcome to HARDtalk. He started the Arab Spring in Tunisia,
:00:08. > :00:13.that eights months on, things are not looking very good. Why?
:00:13. > :00:19.depends how you look at them. Some think the interim government has
:00:19. > :00:26.done a fantastic job, maintaining the country running adequately for
:00:26. > :00:31.the last six months. We saw teargas, Batten's used by security forces
:00:31. > :00:36.against demonstrators right across the country. Outside the Ministry
:00:36. > :00:43.of the interior. Tanks and so on. People saying that they were not
:00:43. > :00:49.happy. They were not happy for specific things. Last week they
:00:49. > :00:54.felt that the traditional system needs to be reformed more. And that
:00:54. > :01:01.the judicial system has to be done as quickly as possible. We will
:01:01. > :01:04.talk about the need for reform of the judiciary, but it is broader
:01:04. > :01:10.than that. One demonstrator told Reuters that nothing has changed.
:01:10. > :01:20.He said the government should leave right now. The biggest challenge we
:01:20. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:29.have is managing expectations, particularly among the youths. They
:01:29. > :01:36.took the ownership of it. And they have expectations. They want things
:01:36. > :01:43.to change right here, right now. That is very challenging in such a
:01:43. > :01:50.short period of time. Democratic conditions in other countries took
:01:50. > :01:59.many years. Eight he is in Portugal, 15 years in Brazil. -- eight years
:01:59. > :02:05.in Portugal. We tried to tell them that they must be patient. Change
:02:05. > :02:12.cannot happen overnight. They are saying to you that they feel fed up,
:02:12. > :02:18.marginalised. The protests are about a lack of housing, healthcare,
:02:18. > :02:28.water, transportation. They are even asking for the interim Prime
:02:28. > :02:28.
:02:28. > :02:38.Minister it to step down. That is a pretty see the judgement and not
:02:38. > :02:42.the view of the majority of Tunisia's. If you speak to
:02:42. > :02:50.demonstrators they will tell you those things. But the majority of
:02:50. > :03:00.she nations will say, we are not totally satisfied, but things are
:03:00. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:21.improving. -- the majority of Tunisians. He took about the youth,
:03:21. > :03:29.very much the Arab Spring has been led by the youth. They are the ones
:03:29. > :03:37.with the grievances, so no wonder they are feeling the ground. --
:03:37. > :03:42.feeling the brunt. I perfectly understand their grievances. They
:03:42. > :03:47.must be patient because the change will not take place quickly. The
:03:47. > :03:51.interim government has taking emergency measures to alleviate
:03:51. > :03:58.some of the problems that the Government has inherited. We have
:03:58. > :04:05.to recognise that the long-term solutions take some time to be
:04:05. > :04:15.implemented. Let's look at some of the figures. Tourism has gone down
:04:15. > :04:17.
:04:17. > :04:23.60%. 1445 %. The Governor of the Central Bank has said you need an
:04:23. > :04:27.extra $1 billion. Where will that money come from? Things are worse
:04:27. > :04:37.financially than before the revolution because you have lost
:04:37. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:44.the tourism revenue. Yes. We were in a position to tackle the
:04:44. > :04:50.financial that successfully. Our two main partners are the World
:04:50. > :04:58.Bank and the African Development Bank. They put in place a $2
:04:58. > :05:05.billion facility. There was also money from the European Union and
:05:05. > :05:10.other sources. That helped us cover the immediate cash needs. Despite
:05:10. > :05:16.the problems than the cost of the revolution so far we will finish
:05:16. > :05:22.the year with a budget deficit of no more than 5%. You need this
:05:22. > :05:28.money now because the impatience of the people is running high. You say
:05:28. > :05:33.these solutions take time and domestic and foreign investors are
:05:33. > :05:39.saying: We want to see what stability is in Tunisia before we
:05:39. > :05:44.commit new funds. The money has gone down from what it was before
:05:44. > :05:50.the revolution. The interim government has formulated a plan
:05:50. > :05:55.which calls for major investments in the country. They are to be made
:05:55. > :06:05.by using a new tills which the country did not have before large
:06:05. > :06:07.
:06:07. > :06:17.investment vehicles. -- by using new tools. A deposit vehicle has
:06:17. > :06:18.
:06:18. > :06:25.been established, similarly to France, Morocco etcetera. The money
:06:25. > :06:35.will come from deposits and it will be used as a vehicle to invest in
:06:35. > :06:42.two areas. One is infrastructure and promoting small and medium
:06:42. > :06:47.enterprises. Are you doing enough? One economist at the University of
:06:47. > :06:52.Tunis said that investors have relied too much on the market and
:06:52. > :06:57.that these few infrastructure programs are too late or
:06:57. > :07:03.insufficient and will not create enough short-term gains. I would
:07:04. > :07:08.invite him to look at the program because there is another vehicle we
:07:08. > :07:13.are creating which will rely more on private investments. The
:07:13. > :07:21.government will play the role up an investor, helping the private
:07:21. > :07:28.investors career he projects. It takes 50,000 dinars, $40,000, to
:07:28. > :07:36.create a permanent job in the country. We have 70,000 unemployed.
:07:36. > :07:42.You do the maths. You, as Finance Minister, could you personally have
:07:42. > :07:47.pushed much more quickly for large- scale projects that would have
:07:47. > :07:53.created these badly-needed jobs? Could you have done more? But could
:07:53. > :08:00.not have done more. It takes time just to set up these are very large
:08:00. > :08:05.investment vehicles. That has taken months. What we have done as an
:08:05. > :08:15.interim government I am not trying to justify. But in reforming some
:08:15. > :08:25.of the regulatory frameworks and initiating investment vehicles that
:08:25. > :08:30.it not exist in the country. We need the next government to carry
:08:30. > :08:34.on this program. Have you made any groundwork for her the Tunisian
:08:34. > :08:41.economy could flourish in the future? You have been extremely
:08:41. > :08:47.dependent on tourism. Have you value added any activities like
:08:47. > :08:53.textiles, which you export to the European Union. Of course the
:08:53. > :09:01.European Union is also in trouble. Have you a grand vision? House the
:09:01. > :09:10.plan, known as a Chapel End plan, calls for an improved technology
:09:11. > :09:18.component. -- javelin plan. The value adding and technology
:09:18. > :09:27.component is 25%. Those are some of the objectives in a our 5-year plan.
:09:27. > :09:33.Have you got the right workforce with the technology and linguistic
:09:33. > :09:39.skills? Obviously we have to be careful to attract the right people.
:09:39. > :09:44.Some of these vehicles are for structured finance and we need
:09:44. > :09:52.people knowledgeable in these fields. We believe we have very
:09:53. > :09:59.good Tunisians but if need be we may even call on specialists from
:09:59. > :10:05.outside. Your message to these protesters who want things now is,
:10:05. > :10:13.there is no short-term fix. The patient. They are or Sirte object
:10:13. > :10:20.into the fact that they have not seen justice in their country. --
:10:20. > :10:26.there are also objecting to the fact. One said that Mubarak is up
:10:26. > :10:31.before the court. Why is it that Tunisia, the source of the
:10:31. > :10:37.revolution, these things did not work out. The former president is
:10:37. > :10:42.in Saudi Arabia. A so said before, if you ask a demonstrator they will
:10:42. > :10:50.tell you these things. They watch TV and see things they have not
:10:50. > :10:54.seen in their own country. the route to Tunisia took is very
:10:54. > :11:00.different from the one that it Egypt took. We have decided to go
:11:00. > :11:05.the long way in our democratic transition. The interim government
:11:05. > :11:15.is in a state of low. The separation of the judicial system
:11:15. > :11:18.
:11:18. > :11:23.Do you mean that it does not matter Ben Ali did not stand trial in his
:11:23. > :11:28.own country? Do think the protesters are wrong? He is
:11:28. > :11:34.standing trial. Not physically. is not physically in Tunisia.
:11:34. > :11:38.that a pity? Of course. The two nations and the government has made
:11:38. > :11:48.every effort to bring him back to two new chef. -- the people of
:11:48. > :11:50.
:11:50. > :11:53.Tunisia and the government. They are not giving him back to us. We
:11:53. > :11:59.have created some independent commissioners who are taking care
:11:59. > :12:04.of all of these things. The process is long. The Jody -- judicial
:12:04. > :12:12.process can be long. But it is not to say that all people involved are
:12:12. > :12:16.not making every effort. They are working hard. The process that we
:12:16. > :12:20.have undertaken in Tunisia is very different from the one the
:12:20. > :12:26.Egyptians are pursuing. What do you mean? The Egyptians have put
:12:26. > :12:34.Mubarak and his associates on trial. You are letting that people who
:12:34. > :12:39.associate with the Ben Ali off Scot free? Most of them are in jail.
:12:39. > :12:48.They are being appropriately tried. The only difference is that Ben Ali
:12:48. > :12:58.is not in the country. But even in absentia he has been going through
:12:58. > :13:00.
:13:00. > :13:04.trials. We are letting the judicial system do its thing. Have you read
:13:04. > :13:11.what the Tunisians are saying on the internet? I will give you one
:13:11. > :13:18.example. One wrote about the demonstrations against the
:13:18. > :13:22.judiciary. Lawyers and thousands of demonstrators are still calling for
:13:22. > :13:26.the bringing to justice of all those who wasted public money and
:13:26. > :13:32.did he do their hands with martyrs' blight were involved in the jailing
:13:32. > :13:37.and torturing innocent people. He said that on 8th August. That is
:13:37. > :13:41.quite typical. People are saying that they do not see the wheels of
:13:41. > :13:47.justice in motion at all. They are angry. They are angry. They are all
:13:48. > :13:53.angry. All of those who have gone through the process of trying to
:13:53. > :13:56.come to grips with the expectations of the people of Tunisia, we are
:13:56. > :14:06.all frustrated. But you have to understand that these things take
:14:06. > :14:08.
:14:08. > :14:12.time. We're not going to leave a single don't -- stone. We are going
:14:12. > :14:18.through the process in a very systematic way. In my ministry, we
:14:18. > :14:24.do work. It takes time to do the files, to go through the files and
:14:24. > :14:28.investigations. But it is being done. It is being totally done.
:14:28. > :14:38.What about the missing millions of Ben Ali? How much is he supposed to
:14:38. > :14:42.have? The French France -- branch says that he and his wife
:14:42. > :14:48.controlled something like 40% of the economy and they think $10
:14:48. > :14:53.billion is unaccounted for. What are the missing billions? I think
:14:53. > :14:55.that is sheer speculation. We do not know what the figure is. As the
:14:55. > :15:00.minister of finance, you do not know how much. I wish I could
:15:00. > :15:10.control the finances, then I would be able to give you the figure. We
:15:10. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:17.do not know. We are going about that in the same a professional and
:15:17. > :15:21.meticulous way as we are everything else. We are working with
:15:21. > :15:25.professional cabinets. But you must know the assets he had inside the
:15:25. > :15:35.country and that of his family. Can you not seize those and freeze
:15:35. > :15:39.them? Most of those have been frozen anyway. Inside Tunisia?
:15:39. > :15:46.If how much inside Tunisia did he have? It is a bit difficult to put
:15:46. > :15:54.a figure because you have to go to the valuation process. All of those
:15:54. > :16:04.assets that his family in particular had, including company
:16:04. > :16:05.
:16:05. > :16:11.is, cash and stocks and bonds, real estate and other types of assets.
:16:11. > :16:16.We are identifying them. I think we have identified most of them. There
:16:16. > :16:21.is a commission that has been set up that is in charge of the
:16:21. > :16:29.confiscation of those. Have they not been confiscated yet? Yes. They
:16:29. > :16:39.have. They're going to the second phase now. I chair the commission
:16:39. > :16:39.
:16:39. > :16:45.personally. It's are you going to sell the assets? We may sell them.
:16:45. > :16:51.We may keep them. We may introduce the companies to the Stock Exchange.
:16:51. > :16:56.How much was it? I gave you a figure of $10 billion a tribute to
:16:56. > :17:01.to the French brands of Transparency International.
:17:02. > :17:08.guess would be south of 5 billion. Have you asked overseas banks
:17:08. > :17:12.regarding the overseas assets? do not have any idea about that.
:17:12. > :17:17.says from a San that he has no money in foreign banks. -- from
:17:17. > :17:21.exile. I did not expecting to say anything else. We have to go
:17:21. > :17:27.through the process. We are covering all of the countries in
:17:27. > :17:31.which assets might exist. We will go about it in a systematic way.
:17:31. > :17:39.will take time. Have you asked foreign government? Yes. What have
:17:39. > :17:44.they said? Most of them have expressed their readiness to help.
:17:44. > :17:48.You are part of the interim government that is in place in
:17:48. > :17:52.Tunisia. In late October there will be elections in the country to
:17:52. > :17:57.elect a new body that is going to draw up a new constitution. It will
:17:57. > :18:03.be quite a party. The country is not used to multi-party democracy
:18:03. > :18:08.of -- democracy. You have more than 100 parties registered. That will
:18:08. > :18:13.be chaotic and confusing. That is a concern but it is part of the
:18:13. > :18:19.democratic process. Tunisia is a democracy. Day after day we are
:18:19. > :18:23.going through the journey. A list of 105 countries that people --
:18:23. > :18:29.parties that people can vote for? think many of those parties will
:18:29. > :18:39.probably form groupings. We expect that to take place. Many of those
:18:39. > :18:43.parties will probably team up. Four or five or six large blocks. One we
:18:43. > :18:47.know about is the Islamist party led by someone who has been in
:18:47. > :18:53.exile in England for many years. Nobody really knows but it is
:18:53. > :18:58.thought they may get something like 20 possibly 30% of the vote. That
:18:58. > :19:06.will give a pretty Islamist tinge to the new body drawing up the
:19:06. > :19:11.constitution. Indeed. Only the votes will confirm that. Are you
:19:12. > :19:15.worried? A lot of women's groups are. The Tunisian constitution
:19:15. > :19:20.safeguards women's rights. There is no polygamy allowed. Their
:19:20. > :19:27.inheritance rights laws are not good. Women cannot marry before the
:19:27. > :19:33.age of 18 and so on. Is that sort of thing going to be compromised?
:19:33. > :19:41.Whether that is totally justified remains to be seen. There is worry
:19:41. > :19:47.amongst women. Tunisia boasts to be the first Arab country to have
:19:47. > :19:54.equal rights for men and women. We are very proud. You will not throw
:19:54. > :20:01.out the baby with the bathwater? It was quoted in the FT, they have
:20:01. > :20:08.been around for a while as a party. They believe they can make
:20:08. > :20:14.improvements to democracy with in an Islamic context in Tunisia.
:20:14. > :20:19.sentence needs to be analysed. What does that mean? To what extent does
:20:19. > :20:28.the Islamic context translate itself into new rules of the game.
:20:28. > :20:35.We do not know that yet. I can tell you that there is a lot of
:20:35. > :20:44.questions being asked. On this specific issue of women's rights,
:20:44. > :20:50.they are worried women's rights organisations will face a loss of
:20:50. > :20:57.the gains made in previous decades. There has been something fantastic
:20:57. > :21:04.in our country. Women play an important role in the civil society.
:21:04. > :21:09.We expect the environment in Tunisia to be influenced by a
:21:09. > :21:16.variety of forces. Political forces but also the civil society will
:21:16. > :21:23.play an important role. To what extent the civil society and the
:21:23. > :21:30.emergence of civil society will deter any extremist movements is
:21:30. > :21:33.something to be kept in mind. must ask you about Libya. On your
:21:33. > :21:37.border, 90,000 Libyans inside your country. What is your feeling about
:21:37. > :21:43.what will happen? People are talking about the beginning of the
:21:43. > :21:51.end for Gaddafi. Tunisia is playing host to talks between the two sides
:21:51. > :21:56.mediated by the Venezuela in mediator. We have heard lots of
:21:56. > :22:01.news come in bits and pieces. Libya had a very adverse effect on the
:22:01. > :22:05.country on tourism. It had an adverse effect on the trade flows
:22:05. > :22:09.and investments between the two countries. More importantly, we
:22:09. > :22:14.feel very bad about the situation there. Don't forget that Libyans
:22:14. > :22:19.are... You want to see peace there but you cannot give us any insider
:22:19. > :22:25.track as to whether things are been rattling for Gaddafi? I think once
:22:25. > :22:31.the settles down in Libya, it will have a beneficial effect in Tunisia.
:22:31. > :22:35.Is the Jasmin revolution beginning to smell bad now? No. It still
:22:35. > :22:39.smells like jazzman. Either way, it is the season for jazzman. If you
:22:39. > :22:45.go to Tunisia, you will smell it all over the place. The revolution
:22:45. > :22:50.was a starting point. The democratic transition that we are
:22:50. > :22:53.going through is going to be painful. It has always been painful.
:22:53. > :22:57.It will not be any different in Tunisia. But it is a process that
:22:57. > :23:00.is going to be successful in the end because we have the proper
:23:00. > :23:10.ingredients in the country to make it a success. Jalloul Ayed, Thank
:23:10. > :23:23.
:23:23. > :23:28.you for coming on HARDtalk. Thank It's northern and western parts of
:23:28. > :23:32.the British what -- are as are in for a quiet night by the south-east
:23:32. > :23:36.and much of central and southern Britain will get off to a wet start.
:23:36. > :23:39.Conditions like that widely there all the way from East Devon up
:23:39. > :23:43.through the Midlands towards Lincolnshire and following on
:23:43. > :23:47.behind that initial reign there will be some heavy downpours and a
:23:47. > :23:54.lot of thunder and lightning. We could see it a couple of inches in
:23:54. > :23:57.rain in some locations. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales were the
:23:57. > :24:01.most part getting away with one of too scattered showers and a bit of
:24:01. > :24:06.brightness. By Wednesday we will see that area of cloud and rain
:24:06. > :24:11.pushing off to the North Sea. But moving in from the west. A band of
:24:11. > :24:16.weather across Scotland and the northern fringes of Wales gradually