:00:04. > :00:07.Now it is time for HARDtalk. Cycling is one of the most
:00:07. > :00:11.physically demanding professional sports. It is also one of the most
:00:11. > :00:17.tainted. In the last decade, a host of top riders have been exposed as
:00:18. > :00:21.drugs cheats, including David Millar. Millar held the Tour de
:00:21. > :00:25.France's yellow jersey and was a world champion before he was
:00:25. > :00:29.exposed. Banned for two years, he then came back, committed, not just
:00:29. > :00:39.to racing, but to cleaning up cycling. But is there room for
:00:39. > :00:55.
:00:55. > :01:05.integrity in a world where winning is everything?
:01:05. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:13.David Millar, welcome to Hardtalk. You are an elite professional
:01:14. > :01:23.cyclist. You are now 34. You have put yourself through the Tour de
:01:24. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:30.France again. Do you care about winning any more? I think that is a
:01:30. > :01:34.natural state for any professional athlete, you care whether you win,
:01:34. > :01:39.for your team for your team-mates. If we are not winning we are not
:01:39. > :01:42.doing our job. So winning matters for you today as much as it ever
:01:42. > :01:46.did? You when you were a young lad setting up a prodigious talent, it
:01:46. > :01:50.is the same feeling? If I didn't have that ambition or decide to
:01:50. > :01:55.achieve success, which is winning, I wouldn't be doing it and I would
:01:55. > :02:01.love it so much. I wouldn't work so hard and I wouldn't go through the
:02:01. > :02:09.suffering. Suffering is the key word that I hear from cyclists a
:02:09. > :02:13.lot. When you say suffering, do you mean mental or physical anguish?
:02:13. > :02:18.The two. It is an integral part of professional cycling - there is a
:02:18. > :02:21.huge amount of physical suffering and there is obviously mental
:02:21. > :02:25.suffering. A lot of the time you are hanging on for dear life
:02:25. > :02:29.waiting for the guy in front of you to crack. Once he cracks the race
:02:29. > :02:34.is on. We are all pushing each other and waiting for the guy next
:02:34. > :02:39.to us to crack before you do. A lot of the time it doesn't happen.
:02:39. > :02:45.have been through more than a decade of professional suffering as
:02:45. > :02:49.a cyclist. I would like to go back to the beginning of your career as
:02:49. > :02:54.a boy and a young man. He clearly had a talent for racing your
:02:54. > :03:00.bicycle. What was it that pushed you towards the idea that you could
:03:00. > :03:06.make a life after that, a career? Dreaming more than anything.
:03:06. > :03:11.Watching the Tour de France and realising it was possible... That
:03:11. > :03:15.the sport existed at that level we could go do it full-time and get
:03:15. > :03:20.paid for it. When I was young I didn't have much to do with money
:03:20. > :03:24.or glory - I wanted to do that would have France. I thought it was
:03:24. > :03:33.an epic thing, something so magnificent and other-worldly. It
:03:33. > :03:36.was idealistic and sort of, yeah, it was a dream. And this is a
:03:36. > :03:41.loaded word, but were you arrogant enough, in the early years of your
:03:41. > :03:46.career, but you could do your best? Push yourself all the way, win the
:03:46. > :03:50.Tour de France? For sure, I think arrogance - you have to have an
:03:50. > :03:56.element of arrogance to you as a young sportsman if you want to
:03:56. > :04:02.achieve. If you want to become - if you want to get into the elite
:04:02. > :04:09.level. Just to get in, let alone remain there. You have to go
:04:09. > :04:13.against the grain in many ways. They were, a cocksure young man.
:04:13. > :04:18.You were bored and you knew you were good and you believe you can
:04:18. > :04:21.be at the top of this sport one day. -- you were good. At what time did
:04:21. > :04:26.you realise that a lot of the riders around you were using
:04:26. > :04:31.illegal drugs to enhance their performance? Almost immediately
:04:31. > :04:39.when I turned professional. It was quite obvious that there was doping
:04:39. > :04:44.going on. That was apparent immediately from seeing suspicious
:04:44. > :04:53.behaviour - things being delivered to rooms - ice. Asking why ice was
:04:53. > :05:02.being delivered to rooms. Asking, why does my room-mate need ice? And
:05:02. > :05:09.they would just say, oh, it is to keep the E P O called. -- cool.
:05:09. > :05:13.That was the drug of choice at the time. I didn't want to believe
:05:13. > :05:20.there was any doping. At the time it wasn't in the media. There had
:05:20. > :05:23.not been any real big drug scandals. This is before the scandal in 1998.
:05:23. > :05:28.To come into this world and have all my dreams shattered and realise
:05:28. > :05:33.that doping was prevalent was shocking. You have written about
:05:33. > :05:40.this a lot. Orme one ride with a training team-mate you ask him what
:05:40. > :05:50.sort of difference can be E P O make. He said it could turn a pony
:05:50. > :05:52.
:05:52. > :05:56.in to a racecourse. That's the truth. -- racehorse. Doping is
:05:56. > :05:59.abuse, but it was amazing there were different degrees of abuse.
:05:59. > :06:03.Some guys would do with to just tweak a little bit, other guys
:06:04. > :06:09.would literally take as much as they possibly could, risking their
:06:09. > :06:13.health and pushing the limits of what was possible. Those guys were
:06:13. > :06:20.the guys who were turning themselves... They became
:06:20. > :06:24.racehorses. You were not a donkey - you were a thoroughbred. Very early
:06:24. > :06:28.on, you lead the Tour de France. You had the yellow jersey. I am
:06:28. > :06:31.trying to establish the kind of mindset that put you over the edge
:06:31. > :06:35.from having consistently, for a number of years, saying you would
:06:35. > :06:42.not take drugs because you believe you can win without them, to then
:06:42. > :06:48.deciding - you know what, I will take the E P O. I will become a
:06:48. > :06:53.cheat. This is what is so hard to explain and it is why I wrote the
:06:53. > :06:57.book. I want people to understand the accumulation of factors that
:06:57. > :07:01.kind of pushed me towards doping for the first time. In all honesty
:07:02. > :07:06.there is not one thing I can pinpoint. Didn't you push yourself?
:07:07. > :07:11.Oh, yes, I pushed myself - as I said, there was an accumulation of
:07:11. > :07:17.factors. It was only ever me that made the decision. The buck stops
:07:17. > :07:22.with me. In all honesty, I gave up. I stopped fighting being cleaned.
:07:22. > :07:26.It's not like I was really standing my ground and being stubborn. It
:07:26. > :07:32.almost felt like I was being idealistic for nothing. Nobody
:07:32. > :07:36.cared if I was clean or not. Even your own team manager? At one point
:07:37. > :07:42.that they used the phrase after you had a catastrophic 2001 talk, you
:07:42. > :07:47.had to retire in the Alps - they told you to go off and "prepare
:07:47. > :07:51.properly". And you said you knew what they meant. I completely new
:07:51. > :07:58.what they meant. There was a lot of innuendo. To prepare properly at
:07:58. > :08:05.that time meant to take drugs. To say that you may have well have
:08:05. > :08:11.said - OK David, you're going to go and take E P O. Did you ever think
:08:11. > :08:15.of saying no? I said No four years. What is interesting is that you
:08:15. > :08:19.stop saying no after you had a reverse. You were one of the young
:08:19. > :08:23.greats of the Tour de France and you had just had a serious setback.
:08:23. > :08:30.Maybe your pride was injured - you wanted to get to the top. It was
:08:30. > :08:34.hurt. I wanted to be what people expected me to be. I was aspiring
:08:34. > :08:40.to expectations - there was a lot of ego involved. There was pride.
:08:40. > :08:48.There was the desire for glory. Funnily enough, mummy didn't come
:08:48. > :08:53.into it. It was an ego thing in many ways. -- money. To not let
:08:53. > :08:58.down the people around me. There were many things involved. You won
:08:58. > :09:07.as a cheat. You won a terrific World Championship time-trial in
:09:07. > :09:14.2003, on drugs. Did you take... dominated it. During the race I
:09:14. > :09:17.knew I had won it. It was just ticking boxes. It was business time
:09:17. > :09:22.- there were none of the raw sensations that you were supposed
:09:22. > :09:27.to get from the sport. It is supposed to be pure, existential
:09:28. > :09:34.but as soon as I was taking drugs, especially to that degree - I was
:09:34. > :09:39.firing on alring on als. It was too easy and I knew I was cheating. I
:09:39. > :09:46.knew that all I was therefore was to win. When you stood on a podium,
:09:46. > :09:56.you got the garlands and the big prize, what did you feel? Bow, not
:09:56. > :10:00.much. Not much at all. Empty? was not much feeling. You were
:10:00. > :10:03.always a smart young man, he had many options in your life. You
:10:03. > :10:07.chose to go down the path of cycling because you could. Because
:10:07. > :10:14.you were articulate and bright, white, at that point, did you not
:10:14. > :10:19.decide, voluntarily, to confess? To stop going down that path that was
:10:20. > :10:25.not satisfying? I couldn't.. I didn't have the courage to do it.
:10:25. > :10:30.It was an endgame situation. If we are going back to the pride and ego
:10:30. > :10:37.- I would be destroyed. This image that people have of me. I would be
:10:37. > :10:43.disliked. That was something I was scared of going. It was almost a
:10:43. > :10:52.self- sabotage, the fact that I kept those last two also whinges in
:10:53. > :10:57.my bookshelf. -- bowled some whingers. I had to get caught. I
:10:57. > :11:01.had to have them catch me. The big question for David Millar is - if
:11:01. > :11:05.the French police had been busted due in 2004, partly because they
:11:05. > :11:12.got information from your team-mate, if they hadn't asked to do, would
:11:12. > :11:17.you ever have been almost? I can't - I don't know. There was a high
:11:17. > :11:20.chance that, no, I wouldn't have been. I don't think I would have
:11:21. > :11:25.been alive now, judging by what happened to some of the other guys.
:11:25. > :11:31.I was on a downward spiral already, emotionally and I was tormenting
:11:32. > :11:36.myself in many ways. I was a very unstable person. I think if I
:11:36. > :11:40.hadn't - if the French police hadn't stepped in and the governors
:11:40. > :11:45.had and taken control the situation I would have destroyed myself.
:11:45. > :11:50.Although I wouldn't have admitted it, I would have burnt that flame a
:11:50. > :11:53.little too long. It is one hell of a world, isn't it? Where the people
:11:53. > :11:58.were managing you, supposed to be nurturing new and responsible for
:11:58. > :12:03.you are watching you going down that spiral and, frankly, far from
:12:03. > :12:07.preventing it - are encouraging you. That has been one of my biggest
:12:07. > :12:11.things in regards to coming back into the sport and trying to be
:12:11. > :12:14.proactive in educating people on my experiences. One of the things that
:12:14. > :12:19.cut me up the most with what happened to me was that it was
:12:19. > :12:24.preventable. It shouldn't have happened to me. That angered me so
:12:24. > :12:29.much that the people who were supposed to look after me as a
:12:29. > :12:34.young man didn't. They did the opposite - that is something that I
:12:34. > :12:37.have always remembered. Is it personal? Are their particular
:12:37. > :12:46.individuals who you feel would have been happy to watch you, in your
:12:46. > :12:49.own words, come very close to, frankly, ending it all? Yeah. I
:12:49. > :12:52.don't have any anger towards individuals, as such - I have anger
:12:53. > :12:56.that it could have happened, that's all. This has happened to many
:12:56. > :13:02.other guys with people around them, different personalities and
:13:02. > :13:05.background. It is a generic thing, which is worse, almost. As I said -
:13:05. > :13:15.you never confessed voluntarily. In the end it was forced out of you
:13:15. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:22.and then you told all because the police got you. You only got eight
:13:22. > :13:29.2-year ban. Some people think because you didn't confess
:13:29. > :13:33.voluntarily you should have been banned forever. A very successful
:13:33. > :13:37.rider who has always insisted that getting drugs after sport has to be
:13:37. > :13:44.a priority says that cheats should be locked up - imprisoned. And that
:13:44. > :13:48.happens now in Europe. It is criminal to dope in France, Spain,
:13:48. > :13:57.Italy, Belgium. That is in the last few years that has happened. You
:13:57. > :14:03.get locked up now, briefly. But I think it is easy to lose track of
:14:03. > :14:10.the big picture. We are sportsmen. There is a certain vengeance to
:14:10. > :14:14.this idea of a lifetime bans. I think every person has the right to
:14:14. > :14:18.rehabilitation and a second chance. I know that his personal opinion
:14:18. > :14:21.because of what happened to me - but I think other people can do it.
:14:21. > :14:31.That might be naive of me, but I think everybody should be given a
:14:31. > :14:32.
:14:32. > :14:37.You have told me that you care enormously about cleaning up the
:14:37. > :14:47.sport. It can never be cleaned up as long as one shadow remains over
:14:47. > :14:47.
:14:47. > :14:54.it - the shadow of a Lance Armstrong - around whom there is so
:14:54. > :15:04.much speculation and controversy about his alleged use of drugs.
:15:04. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:11.think that... This is what the US FDA investigation is about. He has
:15:11. > :15:18.denied using drugs, says every single test he has taken has never,
:15:18. > :15:22.ever proven that he took an illegal substance. It is a whole period in
:15:22. > :15:28.the history of cycling that has a shadow cast over it. What we have
:15:28. > :15:32.to do with that now is, at some point we have to give closure.
:15:32. > :15:38.Maybe this investigation in the Un Uns will do that, one way
:15:38. > :15:43.or another. I want us to move forward. That is what I do with my
:15:43. > :15:50.team and with myself. I do not want to spend my entire career dwelling
:15:50. > :15:57.on the last decade. This man is perhaps the one cyclist that
:15:57. > :16:02.everyone in the world can names. He epitomises the strength and the...
:16:02. > :16:10.He made the sport what it is. The fact that my team exists is because
:16:10. > :16:16.of her Lance Armstrong. We are an American team, with American
:16:17. > :16:23.sponsors. The negative effect of the allegations but at some point,
:16:23. > :16:28.I have be will get pleasure on it. Otherwise we will go on about what
:16:28. > :16:38.he did, did not do. I needed to be really honest about what you mean
:16:38. > :16:44.
:16:44. > :16:53.by Cluj. -- I need you to be clear about closure. You said it is not
:16:53. > :17:03.possible to complete the 1990s Tour de France without taking EPO.
:17:03. > :17:03.
:17:03. > :17:13.believed that, that is why I don't, eventually. I gave in. You say a
:17:13. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:23.generation of riders have the DEC as -- have to be seen as Rutten?
:17:23. > :17:30.rotten. Although there was widespread doping there were guys
:17:30. > :17:37.are achieving, and they were clean. It was rare but it was happening.
:17:37. > :17:43.They will get tarnished. Look at the Science of this. I know you
:17:43. > :17:49.have studied this very closely. There are two men who have studied
:17:49. > :17:57.the physiology of cycling in great detail. They say the performances,
:17:57. > :18:06.the top performances in the 1990s, they lead to thousands "Routinely
:18:07. > :18:16.exceeded the physiological capacity of human beings." can make it is
:18:17. > :18:17.
:18:17. > :18:27.nonsense to think we can do a three-week stage race clean. With
:18:27. > :18:31.
:18:31. > :18:38.respect they are doing it saw it now. -- doing it clean now. You
:18:38. > :18:43.have to ask Lance Armstrong. He can deny it. The bottom line is that it
:18:43. > :18:47.is him, the only person who knows the truth. Leaving aside that
:18:47. > :18:54.investigation, which have you saved his continuing from the US Federal
:18:54. > :18:58.are authorities, you have, in 2007, had a long conversation with Lance
:18:58. > :19:03.Armstrong about his commitment to cleaning up the sport. He told him
:19:03. > :19:08.directly that you do not think he did enough. Why did you say that?
:19:08. > :19:13.have got a lot of time for him. He is a pretty phenomenal human being.
:19:13. > :19:18.What he can achieve, what he has achieved with his foundation. I
:19:18. > :19:26.believe whatever he has, has not done, he has so much power and
:19:26. > :19:32.influence. I know easily and idealistically believe that he
:19:32. > :19:37.could change this sport for the better. -- I was naive to believe.
:19:38. > :19:43.I wanted to make the sport a new sport. Do you think he has met that
:19:43. > :19:53.obligation, that you see? In some ways, yes. He came back. He showed
:19:53. > :19:53.
:19:53. > :20:02.his love for the sport. The bottom line is, he is a one-off. You raced
:20:02. > :20:08.the Tour de France this year. that make you are a respected member of
:20:08. > :20:14.the peloton. Do you believe that the professional racers are now
:20:14. > :20:22.straight? Hand on heart, I can say that the majority are.
:20:22. > :20:27.majority? There will be a minority that would news drugs. An Austrian
:20:27. > :20:32.rider who was very good, third in the Tour de France three years ago
:20:32. > :20:42.and said there are ways, sophisticated ways for riders to
:20:42. > :20:43.
:20:43. > :20:48.dupe the authorities. Where there is a will, there will be a way.
:20:48. > :20:52.They create profiles for each individual athlete. Instead of
:20:52. > :20:58.looking for the cause, they are looking for the effect it has on
:20:58. > :21:04.the body. For you, they would monitor your blood levels, or
:21:04. > :21:12.hormones over at two years and get your line on the graph. See if
:21:12. > :21:18.something is happening. That is the way the sport is going. It demands
:21:18. > :21:23.a massive amount of money, skill and the bottom line is that it is
:21:23. > :21:33.proper criminal activity now if you are doing that. The wire employee
:21:33. > :21:36.
:21:36. > :21:45.in a group of people to cheat the system. -- you are employing.
:21:45. > :21:52.EU actually love this sport? More than anything. When I retire I will
:21:52. > :21:58.miss it so much. And the feeling of racing down a mountain and being at
:21:58. > :22:02.my absolute limit and having to go further and getting back-up and...
:22:02. > :22:08.It is a wonderful sport. I experience thing is that money
:22:08. > :22:16.cannot buy, I get to do things, take myself to places that very few
:22:16. > :22:23.people get to go and it is thanks to the sport. You say that you are
:22:23. > :22:29.suffering - and you use that word - you were so far behind everyone
:22:29. > :22:36.else in 2010 in the Alps and he refused to quit. Is it then a way
:22:36. > :22:42.of seeking redemption from the past in the sport? I think so. I used to
:22:42. > :22:47.think that the redemption was unachievable, a pipe dreams. I have
:22:47. > :22:54.been very lucky and feel I am achieving it and it has involved me
:22:54. > :23:02.perhaps doing things that I would not have done as a young man. I
:23:02. > :23:07.think that day in 2010 in the Alps was a bit of an epiphany for me. I
:23:07. > :23:12.realised I had to do that for myself. I find it fascinating. I
:23:12. > :23:15.began by asking you about caring about winning but may be due care
:23:16. > :23:22.more about restoring respect than winning. I would love to be
:23:22. > :23:27.respected again. Do you think you are? I don't know. For some people.
:23:27. > :23:31.If you are not, is there anything more you can do in the sport?
:23:31. > :23:39.I think I have a responsibility and I live with the responsibility to
:23:39. > :23:45.make a difference. I take pride in that. It is a duty, I think. If you
:23:45. > :23:49.ever saw a young man going down the party went down all those years ago,
:23:49. > :23:54.what would you say if he was trying to consider getting the edge by
:23:54. > :24:04.doing something illegal? I would take him under my wing, make sure
:24:04. > :24:14.he did not. It ruin is your life. David Millar, thank you for being
:24:14. > :24:27.
:24:27. > :24:32.Low pressure is close by to the western side of the British Isles.
:24:32. > :24:36.It is not all doom and gloom. There will be showers but at the same
:24:36. > :24:42.time, there will be sunshine as well. There are one or two
:24:42. > :24:52.exceptions to the rule and we will come to those in just a second.
:24:52. > :24:54.
:24:55. > :24:58.This is how the big picture looks. The low pressure gets even closer
:24:58. > :25:02.over the next couple of days. The showers will come in thanks to the
:25:02. > :25:05.area of low pressure. A weather front and rain associated with that
:25:05. > :25:15.will come through as showers. It will be a different story with no
:25:15. > :25:18.
:25:18. > :25:20.sunshine across the Northern Isles. The rain on Tuesday will be quite
:25:21. > :25:24.significant. Coming down the eastern side, sunshine and
:25:25. > :25:27.sufficient cloud. Things will improve. Signs of improvement are
:25:27. > :25:31.there through the Midlands, into central and southern England but
:25:31. > :25:41.towards the south-west of England, Wales and the Isle of Man, showers
:25:41. > :25:48.from the word go for some. There are plenty to go around as the day
:25:48. > :25:53.goes on. Some of them will be quite heavy across the south-west,
:25:53. > :25:58.western side of Wales. The chance of thunder in the west of Scotland.
:25:58. > :26:08.Towards the east, some of the cloud will break-up. What a contrast in
:26:08. > :26:09.
:26:09. > :26:11.temperatures - 22, 23 degrees is possible. Forget about showers as
:26:11. > :26:16.they gang together during the course of Wednesday night into
:26:16. > :26:22.Thursday. More persistent rain coming up through central, southern
:26:22. > :26:30.England, the Midlands and the north-east of England. It will be
:26:30. > :26:35.there as a feature on Thursday. The showers will get going again across
:26:35. > :26:43.the western areas and temperatures will fall back by a degree or two.
:26:44. > :26:47.That is the pattern for Friday with little overall change. Plenty of